His argument at its core is that trapping means nothing if Duggy loses the matchup (if it's dependent on set, that's a whole other ballgame), so being reductive is sort of the point. Counting how many threats get trapped on either side is a meaningless statistic and a bad argument to make. Look at how many threats get trapped, and then look at the matchups themselves to see if trapping is actually beneficial for the trapper. Compare those numbers to get an accurate comparison of Goth vs Duggy (ferro is a decent example of a trapped Duggy mon that means nothing, while Goth could cripple it). Besides that, looking at the abilities themselves, if we're going to deem one or both uncompetitive, it is important to note the fundamental difference. Ghost mons, which are sparse in the meta, are the only mons escaping Tag while Trap has levitate users/flying types/ghost types and all the other methods of escaping Tag as well (voltturn, shed shell, with the addition of AB).
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Announcement SM OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Dirt
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His argument at its core is that trapping means nothing if Duggy loses the matchup (if it's dependent on set, that's a whole other ballgame), so being reductive is sort of the point. Counting how many threats get trapped on either side is a meaningless statistic and a bad argument to make. Look at how many threats get trapped, and then look at the matchups themselves to see if trapping is actually beneficial for the trapper. Compare those numbers to get an accurate comparison of Goth vs Duggy (ferro is a decent example of a trapped Duggy mon that means nothing, while Goth could cripple it). Besides that, looking at the abilities themselves, if we're going to deem one or both uncompetitive, it is important to note the fundamental difference. Ghost mons, which are sparse in the meta, are the only mons escaping Tag while Trap has levitate users/flying types/ghost types and all the other methods of escaping Tag as well (voltturn, shed shell, with the addition of AB).
Okay, since this isn't dying: I screwed up reading Hecatomb's post and ended up making an argument that isn't what I meant. Gothitelle is broken, I agree. My argument is that if Arena Trap isn't broken/uncompetitive*, then neither is Shadow Tag. It's the abusers that are the problem, and they should be banned individually. Otherwise we're setting a problematic precedent.
*Looking at this thread that's how I expect the voting to go on Dugtrio, and if he isn't broken with AT then nothing that gets it is
*Looking at this thread that's how I expect the voting to go on Dugtrio, and if he isn't broken with AT then nothing that gets it is
*Her argument, not his, but yeah, this is the point I was trying to get at. A trapper's functionality has gotta be looked at from a holistic perspective, because the details of the ability are only one factor in how a given trapper operates. Building on that, when we look at a given trapping ability, we need to be thinking about more than just "oh this thing can keep mons X, Y, and Z, from switching" - it's gotta be more along the lines of what sets threaten which Pokemon in the meta, what percentage of mons actually have something to fear from the trapper, pressure on teambuilding, inordinate pressure on a particular style of team (whether it's anti-stall or anti-hyperoffense or whatever else), and so on. And the central question has to be: "Are these trappers with ability X all at least comparable enough in effectiveness that there's a clear pattern across the board?" If the answer to that is no, then ban the mons that fuck things up too badly instead of banning the ability. I think the kind of bad precedent Hugin is talking about was already set last generation with the Shadow Tag ban, honestly - in my experience, Gothita was significantly less effective than Gothitelle at doing the same job to the point where it's like looking at the Diglett/Dugtrio comparison people were talking about earlier in this thread - they can't be said to be on the same level of danger for the meta, if we presume a danger even exists in the Dugtrio case. Banning Arena Trap as a whole would be the wrong way to go here, same as banning Shadow Tag was last generation (no one who knows what they're doing can tell me with a straight face that Wobbuffet was unhealthy for the meta, for example, so we're running into a case of needless collateral damage). I don't think Dugtrio is at all unhealthy for the meta either, incidentally, but I didn't have time to get reqs so that doesn't really mean anything
To explain further why dugtrio isnt the problem I'll show this replay of a battle I just had on the ladder.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-539254229
I am be blood my Hiye and my opponent is using stall with shedinja + dugtrio. I realized pretty soon that: 1-Shedinja walls half of my team (fini, koko, metagross and phero cant touch it); 2- Sab+Skarm are preventing my lando from setting up stealth rock: without stealth rock shedinja is pretty much free to come in every time on literally everything. My opponent did not need to send in dugtrio once and still won the game easily.
tl;dr: as long as sab stays in the tier things like shedinja or dugtrio will always be "broken".
I'll now go into more the details on which steps I believe we should take in order to improve the metagame:
- There's too much broken stuff right now. Offense vs offense matchups often come down to which phero is gonna get the speed boost/quiverdance first. Balance is unviable because Metagross/Greninja/Phero/QD Volcarona/CB Hoopa are simply too much to handle. All of a sudden Stall becomes the most reliable playstyle because its the only way to not lose games at team preview.
- Now, lets say phero or greninja get banned: chances are we will see more of these SD Gliscor/NP Togekiss/Taunt Mew. These pokemon completely shut down Stall and they dont care about dugtrio.
- Another option that I have been promoting for a while is a suspect test of sablenite. I honestly dont get why sableye mega gets overlooked so much but in my eyes it has always been the primary reason to why stall has been so consistent throughout oras and now sumo.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-539254229
I am be blood my Hiye and my opponent is using stall with shedinja + dugtrio. I realized pretty soon that: 1-Shedinja walls half of my team (fini, koko, metagross and phero cant touch it); 2- Sab+Skarm are preventing my lando from setting up stealth rock: without stealth rock shedinja is pretty much free to come in every time on literally everything. My opponent did not need to send in dugtrio once and still won the game easily.
tl;dr: as long as sab stays in the tier things like shedinja or dugtrio will always be "broken".
I'll now go into more the details on which steps I believe we should take in order to improve the metagame:
- There's too much broken stuff right now. Offense vs offense matchups often come down to which phero is gonna get the speed boost/quiverdance first. Balance is unviable because Metagross/Greninja/Phero/QD Volcarona/CB Hoopa are simply too much to handle. All of a sudden Stall becomes the most reliable playstyle because its the only way to not lose games at team preview.
- Now, lets say phero or greninja get banned: chances are we will see more of these SD Gliscor/NP Togekiss/Taunt Mew. These pokemon completely shut down Stall and they dont care about dugtrio.
- Another option that I have been promoting for a while is a suspect test of sablenite. I honestly dont get why sableye mega gets overlooked so much but in my eyes it has always been the primary reason to why stall has been so consistent throughout oras and now sumo.
As someone mentioned earlier, the combination of defog + Sableye is the real glue that is holding stall teams together as its rather easy to shuffle around to the appropriate wall while rocks aren't up(especially true for Shedinja stall teams). Dugtrios strength on stall teams is primarily that it is able to get rid of many of the rockers that force Sableye and Skarmory out such as Heatran and Excadrill while also being able to eliminate potential breakers such as Hoopa and Yard-X to name a few. Without the ability to prevent rocks from going up with Sableye, Dugtrio would be much worse on stall teams as it won't be able to switch into any of the previously mentioned pokemon. The issue with suspecting Sableye is that it is not in itself not broken enough to warrant a ban as the powercreep and change to mega evolutions that generation 7 brought made it made it much weaker by itself than it was in ORAS.
As Tele said stalls popularity in both SPL and on ladder is due to how much pressure there is on team building in order to prevent being swept by one of the meta games many threats which means that most teams struggle to fit in a dedicated stall breaker that isn't removed by Dugtrio.
In short I feel like the Dugtrio suspect is the wrong way to approach the problem, as long as the meta game is dominated by offensive powerhouses such as Metagross, Greninja and Pheromosa to name a few, stall will always be strong as it will always be able to be wall them. Hence why I voted No Ban
There's also the burn nerf weakening MSab, but overall I'd say it needs a suspect. Nothing should be as effective as it is. Just not right away. Knock out a few of the offensive threats first, that way MSab can be suspected on its own merits rather than it being a question of "do we ban the only thing that makes Stall possible".
I mean ideally we should have a metagame where Stall is possible purely because we've balanced offensive threats and defensive threats so that people can always play what they want.
Dugtrio doesn't inhibit team building, it inhibits gameplay. That's why people hardly noticed a difference on the suspect ladder.
If keeping Duggy means banning MegaSab, I'm starting to lean towards Ban. Yes, banning duggy would make Stall worse - but banning MegaSab would basically kill it (if this were untrue, I wouldn't hear so many people saying 'Stall would die without it').
My basic point is the fact that would an exclusively offensive metagame be healthy? As blunder has basically suggested in his Z-moves video on YT, balance teams have basically been left for dead - and those that don't like using HO or Bulky offense teams may end up alienated for the only 'viable' playstyle(s) being at a pace they're not comfortable with. Z-moves also give Stealth Rockers a wallbreaking option they never had before. In an ideal world I would ban neither - but if we're looking at a healthy metagame, one of them has to go...
My basic point is the fact that would an exclusively offensive metagame be healthy? As blunder has basically suggested in his Z-moves video on YT, balance teams have basically been left for dead - and those that don't like using HO or Bulky offense teams may end up alienated for the only 'viable' playstyle(s) being at a pace they're not comfortable with. Z-moves also give Stealth Rockers a wallbreaking option they never had before. In an ideal world I would ban neither - but if we're looking at a healthy metagame, one of them has to go...
As more offensive threats get banned balance will become more viable (and it is already currently viable *rolls eyes* it even sees more usage than offense on the ladder if you look at the stats, Z moves are single use and balance teams have the tools to scout z move pokemon. Not every pokemon can run a z move reliably so doing this is easier than it looks on paper, just because blunder said something doesn't make it 100% true, even if some of his points are valid).
In fact banning offensive threats will make stall stronger too so by the time we reach a sableye suspect stall could have the tools to survive it.
Dugtrio ban has no effect on Sableye's ban so banning Dugtrio to avoid a Sableye ban or whatever is absurd. We ban things that are broken, we do not ban things to keep other broken shit in the tier.
(Also the results are taking forever ! Damn.)
In fact banning offensive threats will make stall stronger too so by the time we reach a sableye suspect stall could have the tools to survive it.
Dugtrio ban has no effect on Sableye's ban so banning Dugtrio to avoid a Sableye ban or whatever is absurd. We ban things that are broken, we do not ban things to keep other broken shit in the tier.
(Also the results are taking forever ! Damn.)
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Honestly MSab isn't broken. In short, with all the new Fairies running around, MSab just got more things to kill it, as well the introduction of Z-Moves kind of nerfing Knock Off's viability a bit if you really think about it. If Sableye Knock Offs a mon with a Z move it doesn't work so it's as passive as say a Toxapex against a mon it can't status. Not getting Prankster on the first turn of Mega Evo hurts it as well, and overall the mechanics, new Pokemon introduced to the game and the tier, and other factors make it not broken. So while banning MSab would kill stall, it probably won't be banned because it's simply not broken. And banning Duggy will, as said, damage stall but not as much as a MSab ban would. It's just that Duggy can be used in stall AS well as other playstyles effectively, because of how it functions as- a fast, speedy trapper that can trap, outpace, and kill mons weak to it. Sableye isn't as viable if it is not in a stall team because it doesn't fit a team and is killed by a lot of mons such as Magearna and Tapu Lele that Duggy can trap and kill for it. In my opinion, Duggy was/is the real problem here.
What if we just banned one of the heads
mega sableye was never broken
mega sableye was never broken
mega sableye was never broken
but you might ask "why was it banned last gen then?" the answer was how unhealthy it was for other stall teams to face. not using mega sableye? well, have fun losing to mega sableye. because of this, other cool stall megas like venu and mcx (and ampharos!) had to run something dumb like espeon or a breaker and that ultimately made these kinds of teams objectively worse than sableye stall despite the unique qualities the megas offered at a glance.
in this gen, sableye stall still reigns supreme because although there's breakers like hoopa-u, specs lele, etc stall can run its own stuff like pex/trio to avoid a 6-0 (although it makes games more prediction reliant). the problem is that other stall doesn't have a way to get around it. this is not because of dugtrio trapping stallbreakers, this is because of sableye controlling hazards. there is no counterplay for opposing stall unless they like running their own breakers and losing to things that aren't even designated stallbreakers. sableye can just switch in on sr, wisp, toxic users and sit there throwing out wisps and knock offs.
tl;dr know why sableye stall is the only stall? because all the other stalls lose to it. banning trio would not help this and i don't really see how it would help at all. not really relevant to the suspect but other ppl have brought up why banning trio wouldn't help in regards to offense teams and i just wanted to clarify why i think if stall was a problem (not saying it's not), banning dugtrio would be a bad choice relative to banning sableye.
mega sableye was never broken
mega sableye was never broken
but you might ask "why was it banned last gen then?" the answer was how unhealthy it was for other stall teams to face. not using mega sableye? well, have fun losing to mega sableye. because of this, other cool stall megas like venu and mcx (and ampharos!) had to run something dumb like espeon or a breaker and that ultimately made these kinds of teams objectively worse than sableye stall despite the unique qualities the megas offered at a glance.
in this gen, sableye stall still reigns supreme because although there's breakers like hoopa-u, specs lele, etc stall can run its own stuff like pex/trio to avoid a 6-0 (although it makes games more prediction reliant). the problem is that other stall doesn't have a way to get around it. this is not because of dugtrio trapping stallbreakers, this is because of sableye controlling hazards. there is no counterplay for opposing stall unless they like running their own breakers and losing to things that aren't even designated stallbreakers. sableye can just switch in on sr, wisp, toxic users and sit there throwing out wisps and knock offs.
tl;dr know why sableye stall is the only stall? because all the other stalls lose to it. banning trio would not help this and i don't really see how it would help at all. not really relevant to the suspect but other ppl have brought up why banning trio wouldn't help in regards to offense teams and i just wanted to clarify why i think if stall was a problem (not saying it's not), banning dugtrio would be a bad choice relative to banning sableye.
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