Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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First of all, I disagree with S+ Landorus on the grounds that it doesn't have the same impact on the metagame as any other S+ Pokemon in any other format, but your arguments against it are just wrong.

Lando-T has hard checks and counters, and S+ pokemon should not. B
Name a Lando-T "counter" and I'll give you a viable set that breaks it. Skarm? SD + Rockium, Smack Down, hell you can even run Gravity. Tang? Flyinium-Z. The closest thing to a Lando-T counter is an opposing Lando-T, and even that gets 2HKO'd by HP Ice or cleanly OHKO'd by +1 Z-Fly, no rocks needed. Nothing can safely switch in against Lando-T until you know the set it's running, this is part of the reason why it's so dangerous. There are several viable sets it can run and several variations of those sets it can run.

absolutely broken mons that can sweep entire teams
S+ is reserved for Pokemon who have an over-centralizing effect on the metagame, not "absolutely broken mons that can sweep entire teams". P-Don in Ubers is the classic example as its mere existence invalidates tons of otherwise viable Pokemon, and it's basically a necessity when creating a viable Ubers team. Lando-T isn't S+ because he doesn't have the same kind of effect on the metagame, not because he struggles to sweep teams or whatever.

What ABOUT MAGEARNA? Its Ice Beam can wreck Landorus, and so can both Greninjas and Heatran. Lando-T cannot be S+ AT ALL, Otherwise it would be highly overstating Lando-T's Abilities.
Uh... What? 2 of the 4 things you mentioned get outsped and smacked by EQ, and Gren can't switch in on basically anything. Saying "X, Y, and Z can KO it, therefore it can't be S+" is a plain dumb argument. Fucking Golduck can OHKO P-Don and yet if you brought that up as an argument against S+ P-Don you'd get laughed out of the VR thread (rightfully so).
 
I think the problem with an OU S+ rank in concept is that if a Pokemon was that unequivocally viable and had such a commanding influence on the tier, it's probably something that warrants a Suspect test rather than a new ranking. Primal Groudon is the exception because Ubers is a banlist before a tier, and it took something that was not just centralizing, but flat out impossible to counterplay in a meaningful manner to break the ranking system.

To avoid making this a shitpost, on a topic we should have ended, I want to follow up on Gary's suggestion by asking: What Pokemon in A+ do you think could warrant a potential drop, if any? Nothing in it immediately pops to me in that sense, but it might be a worthwhile topic rather than sticking on Zygarde if the Ranking team doesn't feel it's ready to move yet.
 
Volcarona should drop. It's one-dimensional (it's a sweeper and a sweeper only) and requires plenty of support to function properly. Ash-Gren is similarly one dimensional as a breaker, but it doesn't require a defogger on its team and doubles as a cleaner due to its unmatched (among non-Megas) speed tier and incredible priority. Volc's not outright better than every mon in A and not on the same level as the Grens or Zygarde and such in A+.

Speaking of A+ mons who could drop, I think Celesteela could be considered. Not because it's particularly worse in the meta, but because it's harder to justify a team slot for Celesteela over Magearna and to a much lesser extent even Tangrowth. AV Magearna still packs power with a fully invested base 130 SpA and maintains momentum with volt switch. Magearna also has a better defensive typing, especially considering ground immunities don't mean as much as they used to. It also has many more options besides SpD with specs, TR, and Shift Gear, and in general is a better sweeper than Celesteela, who only has one offensive set to work with. There aren't a plethora of situations where you'd want Celesteela over Magearna is what I'm saying. If you really can't have a ground weakness on your SpD mon, use Tangrowth. so on and so forth. I'm not sold on this because I haven't been playing as much as I should, but that's my line of thinking.
 
Volcarona should drop. It's one-dimensional (it's a sweeper and a sweeper only) and requires plenty of support to function properly. Ash-Gren is similarly one dimensional as a breaker, but it doesn't require a defogger on its team and doubles as a cleaner due to its unmatched (among non-Megas) speed tier and incredible priority. Volc's not outright better than every mon in A and not on the same level as the Grens or Zygarde and such in A+.

Speaking of A+ mons who could drop, I think Celesteela could be considered. Not because it's particularly worse in the meta, but because it's harder to justify a team slot for Celesteela over Magearna and to a much lesser extent even Tangrowth. AV Magearna still packs power with a fully invested base 130 SpA and maintains momentum with volt switch. Magearna also has a better defensive typing, especially considering ground immunities don't mean as much as they used to. It also has many more options besides SpD with specs, TR, and Shift Gear, and in general is a better sweeper than Celesteela, who only has one offensive set to work with. There aren't a plethora of situations where you'd want Celesteela over Magearna is what I'm saying. If you really can't have a ground weakness on your SpD mon, use Tangrowth. so on and so forth. I'm not sold on this because I haven't been playing as much as I should, but that's my line of thinking.
I agree. The rise of Ttar and its mega have hurt volc, and it is now outclassed by Magearna as a set-up sweeper. Celesteela is also outclassed for a defensive set by AV Mage, as it still packs power. Meanwhile, Defensive Celesteela is rather passive. Autonomize is also outclassed by SG Magearna. Overall, drop Volcarona and Celesteela to A.
 

Gary

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Yeah Celesteela is not dropping to A rank lol, and it is definitely not being considered as a contender for being dropped. Celesteela and Magearna are completely different Pokemon outside of both being Steel-types, is are their sweeping sets considering that Steela has vastly different coverage options and can potentially run full special or physical Autotomize. I'm also not sure how Volcarona outclasses a Fairy/Steel type, but w/e.

So just go ahead and stop the discussion on that right there lol.
 
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cityscapes

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steela to a: disagree

why are people comparing this mon to magearna ?_? like both are steels but they do completely different things.

first off magearna usually runs av on defensive sets meaning that it walls stuff but this means it gets worn down fast by spikes and other stuff. celesteela actually has recovery in the form of seeds+leftovers+protect (as well as the tools to punish grasses that would switch in like ferro).
secondly celesteela is a flying type so it stops guys like non rockium lando, exca, other grounds that aren't zyg. that's pretty cool and meanwhile magearna teams need a secondary switchin while steela can just have a teammate like bold clef for zyg and call it good.
third steela and magearna have completely different offensive sets like man how is air slash + flamethrower + flash cannon/giga drain comparable to bolt beam + focus miss? if anything i would argue that celesteela has better offensive coverage because bolt beam is honestly kinda overrated especially with no stab

edit: they call him gary because he's always one step ahead of you :(
 
I agree. The rise of Ttar and its mega have hurt volc, and it is now outclassed by Magearna as a set-up sweeper. Celesteela is also outclassed for a defensive set by AV Mage, as it still packs power. Meanwhile, Defensive Celesteela is rather passive. Autonomize is also outclassed by SG Magearna. Overall, drop Volcarona and Celesteela to A.
In what are they even similar at so that you can say magearna outclasses steela? The defesnive set literally have nothing in common bar shared typing. Defensively celesteela isnt worn down by spikes and has pseudo recovery in seeds + protect and for mag it uses av to be an offensive pivot which is worn down by spikes and weak to ground, even their offensive sets of sg and autotomize sets are both completely different as they use very different coverage with steela using flying/grass/fire coverage and mag using BoltBeam/fighting coverage, i disagree with a drop

though a mon i support a drop to is volcorana, the meta adapted to it and it isnt as threatening as before, and compared to other mons in A+ no other mon there needs support as much as volca and it isnt as splashable as the other A+. Dont get me wrong volcorana is a terrifying set up sweeper that easily goes through unprepared teams still, but dont think its on the level of other a+ mons i think it place is more suited for obviously top of the A rank
 
I'm also not sure how Volcarona outclasses a Flying/Steel type, but w/e.
I didn't say that lmao

Celesteela and Magearna are completely different Pokémon outside of both being Steel-types
And both being blanket SpD walls and both having a slow set-up sweeper set that relies on a speed boosting move to get started, a z move to net their first kill, and then their boost ability to snowball from there.

They're definitely comparable lol, and physical Celesteela is like never used so idk why you're bringing it up.

If you just don't want Celesteela to drop that's fine you're the boss but don't just put words in my mouth to justify it, I just wanted to bring up the possibility lol

Edit: "non rockium lando" like 90% of offensive landos use rockium, they only don't if they have a teammate to deal with flying types/celesteela or if they want to lure like Tangrowth or some shit
 

Gary

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Bro you are mad salty all the time and you need to calm down. First off, I said nothing about YOU specifically pointing out how Volc and Steela are comparable. If you look at the post above mine, it says that Volcarona is outclassed as a sweeper by Magearna. I meant to say Steel/Fairy, but my point still remains, they aren't comparable at all.

Just because on your ladder excursion you've never seen a physical Celesteela, that doesn't make it automatically not used. You said the same bullshit about Charti Volc, which was used in several tour matches with insane success. Physical Auto Steela is a rarer set, yes, but it completely takes advantage of some of its common checks such as Heatran and Zapdos. Stop denouncing sets just because of your own personal experiences.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, you are literally just assuming I'm directly talking to you, so that's your fault for failing to read. "These Pokemon sweep and have a stat boosting ability, therefore, they are comparable". That's just not a solid argument at all lol. Both have differences in bulk, typing, and coverage. It's apples to oranges.

Edit: "non rockium lando" like 90% of offensive landos use rockium, they only don't if they have a teammate to deal with flying types/celesteela or if they want to lure like Tangrowth or some shit
Again, yet another incorrect statement. Z Fly Lando with Smack Down has been seeing a ton of usage as of late. Next you're gonna tell me Lefties Lando doesn't exist?

But yeah, this Steela talk is absolutely a no go, and the ranking team is not going to even bother considering it. If you've played the meta for more than 5 mins or watched any high end tour match you can so obviously see how Steela has a massive impact on the meta and the thought of dropping it right now is absolutely absurd.

So yeah, I say again, we are not dropping Steela, so any posts after mine about this debate will be deleted. It's just not going to happen so there is absolutely no point in discussing it.
 
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Indigo Plateau

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Yeah I'm on the same boat as NukedNukem

I could see a Volcarona drop, although I'm fairly neutral to it. The meta has shifted due to it, but it's still a fearsome sweeper which can surprise teams depending on the set.

I can also see a potential Tangrowth drop due to the fact that things like Heatran, Pinsir, Lele, and Protean Greninja pressure it a lot and the fact that it blanket checks a lot of the meta means it's getting switched in a lot trying to repeatedly take on hits. Ground types such as Zygarde and Garchomp have even adapted to this and run DD to blow past it, it can't handle any offensive Lando-T, and even mons like Magearna have the potential of beating it with Twinkle Tackle. I might also be going insane but I've started to see more Char-Y's, but maybe it's some murphy's law shit whenever I try to use a rain team, lol
 
I'm just wondering, but I think a possible case for a rise could probably be Tapu Fini, from B+ to A-. Tapu Fini now has some breathing room with ban of Mega Metagross, as it forces Tapu Fini to switch to another pokemon to prevent it from being killed with one of its stab moves. I've started to use Tapu Fini a little more and found that it has less trouble against offensive mons. Although we know this, Tapu Fini is still arguebly one of the best switch ins to Landorus-T and it can 2 hit KO with scald or 1 hit KO with Choice Specs while Lando-T's Earthquake 3 hit koes. Choice Specs Fini is also becoming a little bit more popular, and because of its amazing bulk that Tapu Fini was famed for, it can punch hole in the enemy team with worrying about dying too quickly. Magearna, who is definitely a mon that is rising in sheer popularity can't set up easily with Tapu Fini running Taunt and has a higher base speed than the former.

Also, if you compare Fini with all the Tapus who are all the way up in A, we can't say that its is so bad that it deserves 2 subranks lower than it's kin. When you look at the pokemon in A-, like Chansey and Amoongus, who also serves as walls and a defensive pokemon like Fini, it is about on par with them. Amoongus is easily pressured by some high tier pokemon, like Landorus-T and Magearna, who are the most defining pokemon in the OU metagame. On the other hand, Chansey still struggles slightly against physical attackers even with eviolite. Tapu Fini has bulk of both Physical and Special bulk that enables it to wall more kinds of pokemon than Chansey or Amoongus(more notably Amoongus).

Because of this, I think a case can be made for it to go back up to A- rank, with its defensive bethren.

Edit: Robopoke made a fair point about CM Fini. It is very dangerous in the right hands, able to set up calm mind without dying too easily. It is a hidden gem in the SM OU. After getting some calm mind boosts, Tapu Fini can dent enemy teams with stab Moonblast and Scald. And about Landorus-T killing Tapu Fini with Earthquake, Tapu Fini still kills Landorus-T with scald and has 192 defencse EVs, Full HP evs with a bold Nature makes Tapu Fini able to tank 2 Earthquakes with left overs recovery.

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 133-157 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

While Tapu Fini 1hit KOES with Hydro Pump with no investment.

0 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 272-324 (85.2 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

And 2 hit KOES with Scald.

0 SpA Tapu Fini Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 200-236 (62.6 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Celesteela deserves its A+, no more words about this.

As for Tangrowth, I don't see it often and don't have much knowledge about it, so I don't think I am entitled to respond to that.
 
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Wow the Zygarde discussion actually ended up being somewhat like a policy discussion.

Honestly though I feel like it is better to just create a separate S- rank for Zygarde than it is to fit A+ according to Zygarde. It is easy to say just drop the like of Volc and Tang but they are also a lot better than the mons in A. Are we going to drop Lele and Garchomp to balance out the A rank after that as well? I am not sure the domino effect that would likely follow is something we want.

Land-T relative to its peer is gotta be by far the best pokemon of the OU tier in a long time(Ubers do not count ofc). Unless it is being banned, the power differential at the top echelon of the meta is going to remain huge. Seriously Zygarde at its current state would definitely make S rank if the gap between it and Land-T has not been so wide.

So yeah, although the council does not really seem to like the idea. I would still nominate Zygarde from A+ to S- for the above reasons, may be Celesteela should also get this rise as well because of how good it currently is, and mew could probably rise to A+ as well because of the weaker average power of A+. It definitely makes more sense to me to adjust the ranks this way so long as Land-T is still in the meta.

(The rest is some off-topic complaints.)

Knowing the balance philosophy of Smogon though I don't think the Land-T ban will be happening any time soon, heck Aegislash would definitely remain OU if not for the retarded 50/50 Kings's shield(and have an interesting competition against Land-T).

Since we are really close to it I guess I should also voice another of my long time concern as well. Are we really just going to leave Stealth Rock the current way it is? Stealth Rock is basically THE reason Land-T has been the dominant beast it is right now. That move has been powerful as ever this gen but with a much scarce distribution. Land-T is literally the only pokemon in rank A+ or above that is capable of carrying this move, and below that long-fallen-off pokemon like Chomp and Heatran end up sitting at rank A because they can run SR successfully. I mean I am not saying it must be banned but that there is not even a discussion about a suspect is just peculiar.
 
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I would like to nominate Uxie to unrank->C-. I don't really make post about lower rank mons but I definitely feel Uxie deserves to be rank. Reasons: Uxie is honestly one or the best trick room setters also give rocks+momentum by using Memento. It can safely set tr with it's bulk+Mental Herb. Uxie has also shown consistently with imsorrylol tr team in the past. I used it the ladder and Circuit tour game. Here is a good example of Uxie setting up for the team.

Replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-294809

Final words about this mon that it's ezpz to set up and a great tr suicide lead and has a solid niche in the ou meta.
 

Colonel M

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Yeah I'm on the same boat as NukedNukem

I could see a Volcarona drop, although I'm fairly neutral to it. The meta has shifted due to it, but it's still a fearsome sweeper which can surprise teams depending on the set.

I can also see a potential Tangrowth drop due to the fact that things like Heatran, Pinsir, Lele, and Protean Greninja pressure it a lot and the fact that it blanket checks a lot of the meta means it's getting switched in a lot trying to repeatedly take on hits. Ground types such as Zygarde and Garchomp have even adapted to this and run DD to blow past it, it can't handle any offensive Lando-T, and even mons like Magearna have the potential of beating it with Twinkle Tackle. I might also be going insane but I've started to see more Char-Y's, but maybe it's some murphy's law shit whenever I try to use a rain team, lol
Volcarona is, more or less, a potent sweeper under the right circumstances. While these are plentiful, there are a few eyesores going against it. Volcarona teams absolutely demand Defog and it needs support to eliminate some of its convenient checks and counters. Tyranitar's rise is also bad news as it means Volcarona has to choose losing to Tyranitar or Heatran (if you're suggesting QD Fire Blast HP Ground Bug Buzz you are a madman). Chansey is also sometimes seen on balance teams more frequently which is just a hard stop to Volcarona as well. Volcarona is still really damn threatening, but some of the meta trends don't really play to its favors, either. A is still a respectable tier since many of these Pokenon are used on a lot of teams.
I'm just wondering, but I think a possible case for a rise could probably be Tapu Fini, from B+ to A-. Tapu Fini now has some breathing room with ban of Mega Metagross, as it forces Tapu Fini to switch to another pokemon to prevent it from being killed with one of its stab moves. I've started to use Tapu Fini a little more and found that it has less trouble against offensive mons. Although we know this, Tapu Fini is still arguebly one of the best switch ins to Landorus-T and it can 2 hit KO with scald or 1 hit KO with Choice Specs while Lando-T's Earthquake 3 hit koes. Choice Specs Fini is also becoming a little bit more popular, and because of its amazing bulk that Tapu Fini was famed for, it can punch hole in the enemy team with worrying about dying too quickly. Magearna, who is definitely a mon that is rising in sheer popularity can't set up easily with Tapu Fini running Taunt and has a higher base speed than the former.

Also, if you compare Fini with all the Tapus who are all the way up in A, we can't say that its is so bad that it deserves 2 subranks lower than it's kin. When you look at the pokemon in A-, like Chansey and Amoongus, who also serves as walls and a defensive pokemon like Fini, it is about on par with them. Amoongus is easily pressured while Chansey still struggles slightly against physical attackers. Tapu Fini has bulk of both Physical and Special bulk that enables it to wall more kinds of pokemon than Chansey or Amoongus(more notably Amoongus).

Because of this, I think a case can be made for it to go back up to A- rank, with its defensive bethren
You've failed to note one of the big reasons Tapu Fini got even close to "mildly" better - it can Defog against Stealth Rock Mew while being immune to Will-O-Wisp. I don't even know what you're talking about with Choice Specs Tapu Fini (inferior Prinarina outside of Speed and physical durability), and it stands even worse against Landorus-T because many are switching offensive - some with Flyinium Z, which does a fuckton to Fini. Fini was never a great Defogger against Landorus-Therian with the exception of the Protect Landorus-T, which still gets chipped a lot by Earthquake.

Mew and Weavile are probably the only reasons to gravitate towards Tapu Fini while still being an okay check to a few things, but it still is a Pokemon that is easy to wear down and faces competition in Defogging by offensive Defoggers (Latis) or Defoggers with recovery (Mega Scizor, Mew, Mantine).

As an aside stating that you have not seen a lot of Tangrowth leads me to questioning things since it is fairly common in a lot of WCoP SM builds and I have seen many teams use it.
Wow the Zygarde discussion actually ended up being somewhat like a policy discussion.

Honestly though I feel like it is better to just create a separate S- rank for Zygarde than it is to fit A+ according to Zygarde. It is easy to say just drop the like of Volc and Tang but they are also a lot better than the mons in A. Are we going to drop Lele and Garchomp to balance out the A rank after that as well? I am not sure the domino effect that would likely follow is something we want.
I'm not really sure what the problem is.

I technically object to a Tangrowth drop. By far it is one of the best defensive pivots in SM OU and has shown that it is fairly splashable with little penalties while checking many dangerous threats. Volcarona's drop makes sense to A.

As for A I dont see reasons to drop Lele and Chomp just yet. Chomp has regained its claim as one of the better Scarf users in the tier and is a consistent Stealth Rock user in the tier. SD + 3 does a number to balance and many stall teams as well. Lele has definitely mellowed out, but it's still solid.

In comparison a lot of A- Pokemon don't really match it either. Zard Y is close, but the linear build path doesn't help. I know Latios has been discussed a time or two to rise, but Mega Tar and regular Tyranitar do not do this Pokemon many favors either. Still really damn good and maybe worthy of sharing A's mantle, but I'm thinking not just yet.

The biggest thing is Garchomp and Lele are simply more consistent and relevant than many A- Pokemon. I think Heatran has shots for A+, but I feel others can argue that nomination better too.
(The rest is some off-topic complaints.)
If I had a dollar for everytime this was asked or proposed I could have retired years ago.

The answer is no.
 
Anyone thought about a keldeo drop? With magearna becoming as popular as it is keldeo's scarf set has one of its best answers running around on a lot of different teams. Combine that with the fact that he lets in magearna for free who is arguably the best sweeper right now. Keldeo was discussed to drop a while ago I think it's about time it did. And choice specs is pretty bad. So much shit can switch into it easily that I can never see myself using it over ash greninja for a water type wall breaker. While not all Mew's run spdef if they do another answer for Keldeo is becoming popular. Volcorona becoming less popular also makes Keldeo less viable since he was a pretty good answer to it. the Pokemon that were common months ago when it rose just aren't as common now and things that annoy Keldeo have risen so I'd say drop this thing to A-

EDIT: forgot to mention pinsir who shits on keldeo with his priority also becoming more popular since Keldeo rose
 
I'm not really sure what the problem is.

I technically object to a Tangrowth drop. By far it is one of the best defensive pivots in SM OU and has shown that it is fairly splashable with little penalties while checking many dangerous threats. Volcarona's drop makes sense to A.

As for A I dont see reasons to drop Lele and Chomp just yet. Chomp has regained its claim as one of the better Scarf users in the tier and is a consistent Stealth Rock user in the tier. SD + 3 does a number to balance and many stall teams as well. Lele has definitely mellowed out, but it's still solid.

In comparison a lot of A- Pokemon don't really match it either. Zard Y is close, but the linear build path doesn't help. I know Latios has been discussed a time or two to rise, but Mega Tar and regular Tyranitar do not do this Pokemon many favors either. Still really damn good and maybe worthy of sharing A's mantle, but I'm thinking not just yet.

The biggest thing is Garchomp and Lele are simply more consistent and relevant than many A- Pokemon. I think Heatran has shots for A+, but I feel others can argue that nomination better too.
I think you have misunderstood my point. I was responding specifically to the comment of Gary of dropping a couple poke in A+ so that Zygarde does not look so out of place. And my opinion is that if this is really an issue it would be better to put Zygarde at S-. It seems that this is just the personal opinion of Gary though so A+ is probably going to remain what it currently is. (except may be volc which is a lot worse now)

As of SR. Well the argument in the link basically sums to "we know SR is cancer but it is not lethal now and there will be too much things to follow up". Yeah it makes sense to an extend. But I feel like there is an on-going trend of the move having worse distribution (thx god GameFreak) and end up becoming an even more centralizing force in the meta by forcing you to choose from an increasingly narrow pool of user. Btw this happened with arena trap when people used diglet in the Dugtrio suspect which was just hilarious lol.

Nonetheless SR has already sent Deoxys-S/D to uber and it could very well do the same to Land-T as well. It is reasonable to not take action right now but I must say I am really interested in how things will follow up in the future.
 

Indigo Plateau

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Anyone thought about a keldeo drop? With magearna becoming as popular as it is keldeo's scarf set has one of its best answers running around on a lot of different teams. Combine that with the fact that he lets in magearna for free who is arguably the best sweeper right now.
I disagree, and I also don't follow the logic for a drop here either.

Keldeo doesn't really let in Magearna for free - at least not the offensive sweeper sets, like you mentioned:

252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 115-136 (38.2 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 159-187 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 117-138 (32.1 - 37.9%) -- 93.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 160-189 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO

Magearna can't switch into Hydro Pump if it's running the shift gear set, and it can't even switch in into Scald and beat it with SG + Thunderbolt either. Even if you both get sent in at the same time, Keldeo clicks Hydro Pump to 2hko the Shift Gear set. The OTR set is more reliable, but you're still taking a chunk of damage if you switch in to something besides Scald - not to mention the fact that you need to still get up TR if you want to sweep. Plus, this is only the Scarf set - if Keldeo happens to be running Specs, you get 2hko'd by Scald if rocks are up. I'd say that the only set that can reliably beat Keldeo is AV.

And choice specs is pretty bad. So much shit can switch into it easily that I can never see myself using it over ash greninja for a water type wall breaker. While not all Mew's run spdef if they do another answer for Keldeo is becoming popular. Volcorona becoming less popular also makes Keldeo less viable since he was a pretty good answer to it. the Pokemon that were common months ago when it rose just aren't as common now and things that annoy Keldeo have risen so I'd say drop this thing to A-

EDIT: forgot to mention pinsir who shits on keldeo with his priority also becoming more popular since Keldeo rose
I don't get how Specs is bad? You don't really do much to justify that argument. The fact that 'so much shit' can switch into it applies to pretty much any choice locked mon, and looking at S through all of A rank, the only things it doesn't hit neutrally with its stab are Tapu Bulu, Toxapex, Amoongus, and Latios. Add in the fact that you have to predict whether it's going for a water type or fighting type move and really, not a lot of things are switching into it easily as you stated.

I also don't understand why people feel like they need to pick between Ash-Gren and Keldeo. They both form an amazing double water core who help break each other's counters very effectively and using them both on the same team really isn't bad, so I'm not sure how that bolsters a Keldeo drop.

"While not all Mew's run SpDef if they do another answer for Keldeo is becoming popular." What? Mew runs PhysDef because it's able to check and cripple a lot of things like Mawile, Zygarde, Medicham, Garchomp, etc.. so I don't see the point in stating that. Charti Berry Volc became a good answer to teams who solely relied on Keldeo as their Volc answer and the fact that its viability is decreasing potentially opens up that last moveslot for HP Electric. Pinsir is a solid answer to it, but that's like me saying that both regular and mega TTar have risen in usage, who Keldeo happens to destroy.

Also another thing going for it is that it is pretty annoying for rain teams to face.

I can't see Keldeo dropping for the time being, or at least not for the reasons stated above. It's still a great offensive mon capable of running both Scarf and Specs and its stab are not as easily abused as other scarfers like Chomp/Terrak. Keep Keldeo in A.
 
First of all, I disagree with S+ Landorus on the grounds that it doesn't have the same impact on the metagame as any other S+ Pokemon in any other format, but your arguments against it are just wrong.



Name a Lando-T "counter" and I'll give you a viable set that breaks it. Skarm? SD + Rockium, Smack Down, hell you can even run Gravity. Tang? Flyinium-Z. The closest thing to a Lando-T counter is an opposing Lando-T, and even that gets 2HKO'd by HP Ice or cleanly OHKO'd by +1 Z-Fly, no rocks needed. Nothing can safely switch in against Lando-T until you know the set it's running, this is part of the reason why it's so dangerous. There are several viable sets it can run and several variations of those sets it can run.



S+ is reserved for Pokemon who have an over-centralizing effect on the metagame, not "absolutely broken mons that can sweep entire teams". P-Don in Ubers is the classic example as its mere existence invalidates tons of otherwise viable Pokemon, and it's basically a necessity when creating a viable Ubers team. Lando-T isn't S+ because he doesn't have the same kind of effect on the metagame, not because he struggles to sweep teams or whatever.



Uh... What? 2 of the 4 things you mentioned get outsped and smacked by EQ, and Gren can't switch in on basically anything. Saying "X, Y, and Z can KO it, therefore it can't be S+" is a plain dumb argument. Fucking Golduck can OHKO P-Don and yet if you brought that up as an argument against S+ P-Don you'd get laughed out of the VR thread (rightfully so).
Yes, looking at it in retrospect my argument is pretty dumb. But, my basic point, (however misconveyed) was that there was no way that Lando-T should get an S+ rank just because of the fact that while it is arguably the best mon in OU, it still is not worthy of getting a ranking that, as you have already said, is given when it invalidates many viable other mons that could have had, without the S+ had an effect on the metagame in a higher capacity.
 

Finchinator

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Hey everyone. I would just like to say that we are not currently entertaining the prospect of adding any sort of S+ ranking to the viability rankings in the foreseeable future. Therefore, it would be greatly appreciated if all discussion of this promptly concluded in order for us to maximize discussion on relevant and realistic points. If this happens to change in the future, we will let you know, but for now this will not be part of the Viability Rankings.
 
This is a compounding on the point of BlisseyAndChansey123. Ever since Metagross left the metagame, the fact that Tapu Fini can act as a defogger while not being will-o-wisped constantly, and the fact that it can stand up to Specs Keldeo, Any Zygarde, Charizard-Mega-X, Volcarona and Lando-T, and other Mons across the A and S rank makes it a good fit for A-. A- Is for Pokemon that have a handful of negative characteristics that make them less viable than A, A+ and S mons. Tapu Fini can also act as a calm minder to boost it's defenses against some of the mons I just listed, and to make Scald and Moonblast be worthwhile. Tapu Fini, as said by BlisseyandChansey, should be with or a subrank below it's brethren high up in A. The pokemon that can stop Tapu Fini, and in my opinion keeping it out of A-, are really Magearna in all sets and Ferrothorn. Magearna because it resists Fini attacks, isn't affected by taunt (If SG and Trick Room have been set already) and Calm Mind doesn't really make sense because a fleur cannon 2HKO in AV and Trick Room and a 2HKO Thunderbolt in SG before it can calm mind and Ferrothorn because it's incredibly defensive. (Nuff Said)
Damage Calcs (All are versus Tapu Fini or Tapu Fini versus):
Magearna Calcs:​
1. 252 SpA Magearna Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 158-186 (45.9 - 54%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
2. 252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 186-220 (54 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zygarde Calcs:​
3. 24 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 121-144 (33.7 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4. 24 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 210-248 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Keldeo Calc:​
5. 24 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 218-260 (67.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Volcarona Calc:​
8. 24 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 222-264 (71.3 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Landorus-T Calc:​
9. 24 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 282-332 (88.4 - 104%) -- 25%
chance to OHKO
Wakster Calc:​
10. 24 SpA Tapu Fini Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marowak-Alola: 278-330 (106.5 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ferrothorn Calc:​
11. 0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tapu Fini: 218-258 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Edit: Deleted some pokemon that volx757 pointed out Fini can't beat (Gren, Char-Y and Heatran)
 
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This is a compounding on the point of BlisseyAndChansey123. Ever since Metagross left the metagame, the fact that Tapu Fini can act as a defogger while not being will-o-wisped constantly, and the fact that it can stand up to Specs Keldeo, Any Zygarde, Greninja, Heatran, Charizard, Volcarona and Lando-T, and other mons across the A and S rank makes it a good fit for A-. A- Is for Pokemon that have a handful of negative characteristics that make them less viable than A, A+ and S mons. Tapu Fini can also act as a calm minder to boost it's defenses against some of the mons I just listed, and to make Scald and Moonblast be worthwhile. Tapu Fini, as said by BlisseyandChansey, should be with or a subrank below it's brethren high up in A.
Your list of mons it can beat isn't accurate. Of these mons:

Specs Keldeo, Any Zygarde, Greninja, Heatran, Charizard, Volcarona and Lando-T

It cannot beat greninja or offensive heatran, it cannot beat zard-y, it cannot beat giga drain volcarona (not to mention u just QD in it's face), it takes a million from offensive lando-t.
It can check specs keldeo and zygarde, but lack of recovery means it's not gonna be doing so for long.

It's been a long time since metagross was banned, and I can't think of anything that has actually changed to make fini better. It's outclassed as a defogger by mew, as a water/fairy attacker by primarina, and as a general wall by... all the other general walls.
 
Many have already spoken about this so I will try to stay brief.

I think Volcarona should drop to A. Now don't get me wrong, Volc is an absolute beast under the right circumstances, but it seems like it needs more support than the other A+ mons. You basically need to build your team around Volc in order to offer it the support it needs (defog, duggy if no HP-Ground, Toxapex answer if no z-Psychic, etc. you get the idea). I don't think that's what A+ stands for. The other mons in A+ are much more self sufficient and offer support to the team (ranther than demand support). I feel like Volc is a little more match up reliant that most other A+ mons (my personal opinion from ladder play, no idea if this sentiment makes sens in tour play). It has good coverage, but there are always some matches where you wish you ran HP-Ice over HP-ground (or whatever). Mons like Celesteela and both Greninjas have better overall coverage and just seem to be more consistent. It also dosen't help that most (if not all) teams have some sort of direct Volc answer.
That said, Volc should not go any lower than A. While it basically has one set (offensive QD) with only minor changes to it moves/item, it can be tailored to lure and take out specific checks. Also, even with the required team support and the reality of actually setting being easier said than done, if it does set up, this thing puts in mad work.
If/When the meta shifts, Volc might merit its A+ status again. But right now, I think A is more reprentative of where Volc stands in the meta.
 
Definitely supporting dropping Volcarona to A. Don't get me wrong, this thing is still an absolute monster, but it's an absolute monster the metagame has adapted to. People have already said pretty much everything I'd say about it (requires immense team support, most teams come prepped for it, current metagame is not particularly friendly towards it, etc), so I'll keep it brief. While Volcarona can still take apart unprepared teams easily, the amount of support it requires to do so and the fact that most teams ARE prepared means that it's hard to justify keeping it in A+ in the current metagame.
 
Alright, I'll throw in my opinion:
Garchomp: A to A-
Don't get me wrong, Garchomp is still a good pokemon, but it hasn't adapted to the meta trends too well lately. Magearna becoming more popular results in it being killed by a fairy move if it can't kill it fast enough with earthquake, Lando-T overshadows him a lot as well, as it is the best ground type and arguably best pokemon in OU, being even more popular than ever. He also really can't damage popular defensive pokemon enough to be effective like AV Tangrowth, Celesteela, and Skarmory most of the time either. Also, the addition of the Tapus did not really help it either, especially with Tapu bulu rising in popularity. You can run poison jab to deal with the Tapus better, but it struggles to do much to them without it, forcing it to run poison jab over a more valuable coverage move, unless he wants to lose to the Tapus. Not only does it have to fight over a slot in a team against Lando-T, it also has the competition of Zygarde, who has Dragon dance and an extremely spammable move in Thousand arrows. It also struggles with common threats like protean greninja with ice beam, and scarf tapu lele. It can still be an great pokemon on a team that can justify it use properly, but it just doesn't seem as good as it once was. Last generation Zygarde was seen as an inferior garchomp, but now, i feel it's the other way around now.
 
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