Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[mushamu]

Hi, I would like to propose magnezone moving up 2 stages to A+. The obvious reason being that duggy has been gone, but there are others as well. In the current meta, there are 3 mons that I see at least one used in every team (besides lando). Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Celesteela. I believe the assault vest magnezone set is the best of any set. While playtesting with it, I have found that magnezone not only counters these mons, but takes them out of the game completely, with the exception of toxapex. However, toxapex is walled by magnezone and is constantly forced out, while magnezone can pivot. Also, shift gear magearna gets walled completely as well, unless it is all out pummeling, which is so uncommon these days. My last reasoning is that with negligent speed evs, it outspeeds mega scizor and kills it before it can u-turn out. While these may be reasons to move it up only one stage, I suggest two based on usage, viability, and what it brings versus other A+ ranked mons, as well as those under it. All this refers to it by itself, but combine it with a team that works with it, and magnezone is easily the best mon to take out the bulky mons that you can’t seem to bring down other wise. Even the top tier ground types: landorus and garchomp, get 2HKOd by flash cannon. Not to mention that it’s stats make it naturally bulky enough to tank 3 psychics from a lele with psychic terrain up. With av, it’s 5. And it, like many of the viable mons, have many great sets: av, specs, scarf, life orb, leftovers, steelium-z, etc. Magnezone in my opinion is a LOT better than what the rankings suggest. Especially when 4 out of the top 5 mons in the viability rankings get shut down by it. Please consider, and let the discussion commence!

Magnezone definitely does not have the potential to be A+. With a Megan Charizard X rising, Magnezone is having a harder time blowing through teams. It's poor speed stat leaves it very open to revenge killers such as Excadrill and Mega Zards, as well as Mega pinsir and Medicham.p . Magnezone is also very weak to Ground type moves, and in a tier literally ruled by Lando T it can have a lot of trouble breaking through teams. Magnet Pull is mostly the reason why you should be using Magnezone, and definitely does not have the potential to rise.

 

[bdov]

Magnezone definitely does not have the potential to be A+. With a Megan Charizard X rising, Magnezone is having a harder time blowing through teams. It's poor speed stat leaves it very open to revenge killers such as Excadrill and Mega Zards, as well as Mega pinsir and Medicham.p . Magnezone is also very weak to Ground type moves, and in a tier literally ruled by Lando T it can have a lot of trouble breaking through teams. Magnet Pull is mostly the reason why you should be using Magnezone, and definitely does not have the potential to rise.

This is assuming A.) mega charizard x IS mega when it comes in, and B.) that it isn’t surrounding by mons to PREVENT obvious threats like excadrill and mega medicham. My main reasoning is it’s ability, which literally is able to render the most common cores in the meta useless. Also, I said earlier that it 2HKOs lando with flash cannon, predict it once, and most people will be wary to risk it to a second flash cannon. My point is that the few mons it DOES struggle to are either checked by other mons, or can be killed by magnezone itself with its great offensive typing.

 

[LeNorm]

Hi, I would like to propose magnezone moving up 2 stages to A+. The obvious reason being that duggy has been gone, but there are others as well. In the current meta, there are 3 mons that I see at least one used in every team (besides lando). Toxapex, Ferrothorn, and Celesteela. I believe the assault vest magnezone set is the best of any set. While playtesting with it, I have found that magnezone not only counters these mons, but takes them out of the game completely, with the exception of toxapex. However, toxapex is walled by magnezone and is constantly forced out, while magnezone can pivot. Also, shift gear magearna gets walled completely as well, unless it is all out pummeling, which is so uncommon these days. My last reasoning is that with negligent speed evs, it outspeeds mega scizor and kills it before it can u-turn out. While these may be reasons to move it up only one stage, I suggest two based on usage, viability, and what it brings versus other A+ ranked mons, as well as those under it. All this refers to it by itself, but combine it with a team that works with it, and magnezone is easily the best mon to take out the bulky mons that you can’t seem to bring down other wise. Even the top tier ground types: landorus and garchomp, get 2HKOd by flash cannon. Not to mention that it’s stats make it naturally bulky enough to tank 3 psychics from a lele with psychic terrain up. With av, it’s 5. And it, like many of the viable mons, have many great sets: av, specs, scarf, life orb, leftovers, steelium-z, etc. Magnezone in my opinion is a LOT better than what the rankings suggest. Especially when 4 out of the top 5 mons in the viability rankings get shut down by it. Please consider, and let the discussion commence!

Just to say, it's rare for a mon to go up more than one sub-rank without the meta significantly changing. So, for instance, when Dug was banned, Magnezone became a lot more viable. However, nothing like this has happened recently.

It's most obvious problem right now is that it can't really do much to quite a few of the top threats in the tier - Lando, AV Magearna, Heatran, Zygarde, etc. Magnezone's main niche is taking out steels, and it does that well, aside from the fact that it struggles with two of the most threatening steels - Tran and Magearna. SG Magearna still often carries Focus-Miss, so Magnezone is often beaten even without AAP; it would be a brave trainer to bring in AV Magnezone against a shift gear set, anyway. Besides, outside of walling steels, AV Magearna does a lot of what AV Magnezone does, but better.

This is not to say Magnezone is a bad mon at all. But only that to be A+ it has to be really important to the meta in a way few mons can claim to be. There is nothing wrong with being A-, all the mons in this rank are really viable and have a use.

 

[NightFalcon]

This is assuming A.) mega charizard x IS mega when it comes in, and B.) that it isn’t surrounding by mons to PREVENT obvious threats like excadrill and mega medicham. My main reasoning is it’s ability, which literally is able to render the most common cores in the meta useless. Also, I said earlier that it 2HKOs lando with flash cannon, predict it once, and most people will be wary to risk it to a second flash cannon. My point is that the few mons it DOES struggle to are either checked by other mons, or can be killed by magnezone itself with its great offensive typing.

Being checked by other mons doesn't give you more credibility in your argument FOR Magnezone rising, but just works against it tbh. You're arguing for situational counter uses for him to rise which his current rank is already reflected by, especially considering he rose in VR recently.

He won't rise to A+ because that presupposes that he's better than everything in A which you really have to take a hard look at. Does he have the ability to just outright win games once Chansey is gone (Volc)? Can he mindlessly spam STAB moves with little drawback, be an entire team archetype stopper/delayer, and overall excellent check to special attackers all in one role like TTar?

These are the things you have to consider when arguing for a rise. That combined with the fact that the Steel types he traps can still annoy with leech seed, having no form of recovery, and the possibility of Scald burns make life annoying for Zone.

Gary has already mentioned last time when Zone rose that a lot of it was due to the prominence of Sub/ElecZ sets which I agree with and think are the best sets to outright beat Ferro, Cele, Pex with no drawback, and while said set is really good, it is imo by no means enough for A or A+

 

[Vengeance417]

This is assuming A.) mega charizard x IS mega when it comes in, and B.) that it isn’t surrounding by mons to PREVENT obvious threats like excadrill and mega medicham. My main reasoning is it’s ability, which literally is able to render the most common cores in the meta useless. Also, I said earlier that it 2HKOs lando with flash cannon, predict it once, and most people will be wary to risk it to a second flash cannon. My point is that the few mons it DOES struggle to are either checked by other mons, or can be killed by magnezone itself with its great offensive typing.

The main issue with Magnezone is that once it has trapped and eliminated said Steel type, it's most likely going to become fodder for your team due to its pitifully slow speed. Meanwhile, Zapdos, while not being able to trap steels, happens to have the same ranking as Magnezone and is also capable of eliminating the same core you listed in your post thanks to having access to Heat Wave, while also having access to Hidden Power Ice on top of that to help its matchup against Lando and Zygarde. It can also check mons like Mega Pinsir and Kartana a lot easier thanks to its defensive typing and access to recovery in Roost. Lastly, it has a much better speed stat, which helps it in outpacing or speed-tying key threats such as offensive Lando, the rare Mega Charizard Y, Mega Medicham, Superpower Tapu Bulu, speed-invested Suicune, and Specs Pelipper (pump does 82 min to AV Mag and no one runs Timid Mag lmao).

Also, while AV Magnezone is capable of checking Tapu Lele and Latios, which is a nice perk, so can AV Magearna, which boasts way more SpDef and a much better defensive typing that allows it to check even more mons in the tier than Magnezone currently can.

Lastly, some of the sets for Magnezone that you listed, besides the already established sets like Z-moves and AV, are either nonexistent or just really bad. Scarf is way too slow, and both Life Orb and Specs sets are outdone by Tapu Koko.

 

[ThatMangoLife]

The main issue with Magnezone is that once it has trapped and eliminated said Steel type, it's most likely going to become fodder for your team due to its pitifully slow speed. Meanwhile, Zapdos, while not being able to trap steels, happens to have the same ranking as Magnezone and is also capable of eliminating the same core you listed in your post thanks to having access to Heat Wave, while also having access to Hidden Power Ice on top of that to help its matchup against Lando and Zygarde. It can also check mons like Mega Pinsir and Kartana a lot easier thanks to its defensive typing and access to recovery in Roost. Lastly, it has a much better speed stat, which helps it in outpacing or speed-tying key threats such as offensive Lando, the rare Mega Charizard Y, Mega Medicham, Superpower Tapu Bulu, speed-invested Suicune, and Specs Pelipper (pump does 82 min to AV Mag and no one runs Timid Mag lmao).

Also, while AV Magnezone is capable of checking Tapu Lele and Latios, which is a nice perk, so can AV Magearna, which boasts way more SpDef and a much better defensive typing that allows it to check even more mons in the tier than Magnezone currently can.

Lastly, some of the sets for Magnezone that you listed, besides the already established sets like Z-moves and AV, are either nonexistent or just really bad. Scarf is way too slow, and both Life Orb and Specs sets are outdone by Tapu Koko.

Agree. In fact I'm a bit surprised Magnezone is even ranked A-, though it has gotten a lot better with arena trap ban. It's speed is so slow, hardly anyone runs scarf anymore as lots of pokemon outspeed it with scarf. It in the past in ORAS also used to enjoy synergy with stuff like Mega Altaria, Gardevoir (when I used it more), which both aren't viable anymore. And as you alluded to, it's hard to fit onto a team. If you want an electric type, Tapu Koko's a better bet, and it can switch in and out without being walled with U-turn while Magnezone only has volt switch option. If you want a steel type, so many good options in Celesteela, Heatran (both which can often beat magnezone 1 v1), ferrothorn, Celesteela, Mega Mawille etc. Mega Scizor isn't used as much as ORAS, neither is Skarmory. And Magnezone isn't even guaranteed to kill Ferrothorn full specially defensive (and with a SpD helpful nature + full Special defense it doesn't). Which is really irritating as it means you can't prevent the rocks/spikes getting up.

Arguably I think Magnezone's biggest asset currently might be how it handles toxapex. Hits it hard, and can't get toxiced and doesn't mind the burn too much from scald. But don't think that's enough.

 

[BlueLobster]

Can I just ask why people are comparing Magnezone and Koko? They might both be electric types but they fill completely different roles. Koko is a fast offensive pivot while Magnezone's niche is trapping steels like Ferro and Celesteela and removing them from play. If you replace Magnezone with Koko on a team that relies on magnet pull you are going to have severe problems. Koko can't even beat Ferro, which is the main thing Mag traps along with Celesteela.

I really don't think Zone should rise though, as it isn't brilliant at its job as a steel trapper. Mage and tran dont care about it, Celesteela can lure it with EQ (not hard to get it in range, as most people use Mag as their check to stuff like Koko as well), Skarm (lol) runs shed shell most of the time, Scizor can U-turn out unless you invest in some speed, and even then it can creep you, turn on the switch and even has access to superpower. Only Ferro can do nothing back (let's be real, Z Bulldoze isn't a thing), which means it's not even completely reliable as a steel killer. It has no recovery and is not the hardest thing to get chip on (scald burns from pex, spikes support, leech seeds which is pretty much all it switches into, or stuff like Koko that it checks), and it's just death fodder once a steel has gone. Even then, it isn't the hardest thing to outplay, as it's the obvious go to option against most steels, so lures like EQ Cele and Superpower Sciz are easy to hit it with and you can always double into like 80% of the meta that threaten it out. It's not even close to the level of the best mons on A, let alone A+ worthy.

 

[Gary]

Zone is not going A+ or even A for that matter. Sorry.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Agree. In fact I'm a bit surprised Magnezone is even ranked A-, though it has gotten a lot better with arena trap ban. It's speed is so slow, hardly anyone runs scarf anymore as lots of pokemon outspeed it with scarf. It in the past in ORAS also used to enjoy synergy with stuff like Mega Altaria, Gardevoir (when I used it more), which both aren't viable anymore. And as you alluded to, it's hard to fit onto a team. If you want an electric type, Tapu Koko's a better bet, and it can switch in and out without being walled with U-turn while Magnezone only has volt switch option. If you want a steel type, so many good options in Celesteela, Heatran (both which can often beat magnezone 1 v1), ferrothorn, Celesteela, Mega Mawille etc. Mega Scizor isn't used as much as ORAS, neither is Skarmory. And Magnezone isn't even guaranteed to kill Ferrothorn full specially defensive (and with a SpD helpful nature + full Special defense it doesn't). Which is really irritating as it means you can't prevent the rocks/spikes getting up.

Arguably I think Magnezone's biggest asset currently might be how it handles toxapex. Hits it hard, and can't get toxiced and doesn't mind the burn too much from scald. But don't think that's enough.

Why are you comparing Magnezone to Tapu Koko? Like, they are both electric types, but they do completely different things.
Tapu Koko is used as a Wallbreaker and a pivot, and Magnezone is used to solely trap steel types. You also are looking at solely what hurt Magnezone, and ignoring that it gained an amazing partner in the form of Tapu Lele, and even Tapu Bulu to an extent. You also seem to think that you can only use 1 steel type per team. If you watched or experienced any high level play, you will know that many teams use more than 1 steel. The fact that it can act as bulky steel and how many things appreciate Scizor, skarmory, celesteela, and Ferrothorn our of the picture make Magnezone easily deserving of A- rank.
Like please, watch tournaments or high level replays before making absurd comparisons or statements like this.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Okay, I think it's about time this Magnezone talk is dropped.. there have been more than enough replies about it already.

Gary if you don't mind me asking - can we know what the council thought about raising Hawlucha to B+? I know it's been nominated before, but I'm not sure if it's been addressed at all, and I could've very well just missed something.

e: just found that it was 50/50, but still wanted to know what the thoughts were

 

[Vengeance417]

I have to agree with Hawlucha rising to B+ as well. It's honestly one of the scariest sweepers in OU right now, for reasons stated millions of times in this thread already. Also, it's not like the teammates that it requires to set up its sweep are really that limiting to your team building. The Tapus that it pairs with, mainly Koko and Lele, are top tier mons in their own right and serve many different roles besides providing terrain specifically for Hawlucha.

 

[Eboera]

I have to agree with Hawlucha rising to B+ as well. It's honestly one of the scariest sweepers in OU right now, for reasons stated millions of times in this thread already. Also, it's not like the teammates that it requires to set up its sweep are really that limiting to your team building. The Tapus that it pairs with, mainly Koko and Lele, are top tier mons in their own right and serve many different roles besides providing terrain specifically for Hawlucha.

I think you can even go 1 higher, it's rising higher and higher on rain teams, but even then it's not like it's not super scary even not on rain teams. But I agree i think B+, its on every rain team.

 

[BlueLobster]

Yeah Hawlucha is really overdue a rise. The vast majority of teams carry a tapu, meaning Hawlucha is really far more splashable than people seem to think it is (seriously, why is only elec seed ranked on sets viability when all the seeds are pretty viable). It is not difficult to set up, with the seed giving it a +1 boost in Def/SpD and having a nice immunity to ground moves which puts a huge pressure on stuff like scarf Lando/Chomp (both not too common compared to other sets, but still). Other scarfers like Kartana, Keldeo and even Latios are somewhat restricted in what they can use as you can SD on leaf blade/sacred or secret swords and even dracos due to the SpA drop and just finish the opposing time provided you've weakened it's checks enough. With poison jab for Koko it has a wonderful rain matchup, outspending anything aside from opposing Hawluchas (which you should creep anyway), which really helps out as offense normally has problems V rain. It's also not a dead weight V fatter teams, it can break Pex if you have spikes support, and even without it it's pretty pressed having to haze and recover or switch constantly. It's best checks seem to be unaware Clefable and Mew, both of which are pretty easy to overload with something such as Koko or Lele... You get my point? Also, a key point against these fatter teams is you can quite often forsake the unburden speed boost and switch out as you can outspeed balance cores without it, so once you KO the faster mons, you're safe to switch and the game is probably in your favour anyway. As for offense, only priority can stop it once it's set up, and then again you can quite easily get it set up without it getting in priority range if you play it well.

In short, this thing is way better than the mediocre crap in B and really needs to move up. It is at least as threatening as MPert and, in my opinion, better as it does not rely on weather past set up. It is at minimum worthy of B+, and I'd personally say A- (although I get completely why it is a bit of a stretch, I think it is better than a couple of the A- mons)

Edit: To clarify my point on scarf Lando, I was saying it discourages earthquakes as you can set up on them, which is very important as it allows you to be far more risky with mons like Heatran than you can normally (if you know it's scarf, normally not hard to tell by how they play with it and if they have another possible rocker) cause no one is going to lock themselves into EQ (or even knock) while you have it in the back.

 

[AM]

A- is too high for Hawlucha, from a splashability standpoint and it's a reach to say effectiveness wise it exceeds some of the better B+ mons like Mega Lati, Char-X, M-Kazam, and M-Cham. Setting up in front of a Lando-T is a common situation but it's extremely risky on the off chance you go up against a Z-Move Lando on the assumption you're safe. The Scarf Lando point would be fine if the player using Scarf Lando is a total idiot and just gives the Hawlucha a free turn to set up or at least with no consequences long term. Its consistency, like M-Cham, is based on High Jump Kick hitting if we're talking about using it for pure power after an SD and not something like Drain Punch and this is a move that can be extremely inconsistent. Offense still has tools to deal with it in the form of Ash Ninja + secondary priority user which is a basic concept on your typical offenses, at least from what I've seen. Hawluchas matchup against rain is a bit overhyped, with the exception of Power Whip Ferro on certain rain builds it sets up on just about nothing and is normally limited to revenge killing or cleaning up weakened members. Hawlucha does 0 to stall, all the stalls run an Unaware mon now like Quagsire. Its matchup against balance teams is kind of a mixed bag.

Some of the mons like Alomomola, Lucha, Excadrill are better in B+ but Hawlucha in A- is too large of a push. It's a good mon that is better than some of the A- in certain situations stuff but gets gassed a bit in terms of effectiveness.

 

[BlueLobster]

Offense still has tools to deal with it in the form of Ash Ninja + secondary priority user which is a basic concept on your typical offenses, at least from what I've seen. Hawluchas matchup against rain is a bit overhyped, with the exception of Power Whip Ferro on certain rain builds it sets up on just about nothing and is normally limited to revenge killing or cleaning up weakened members. Hawlucha does 0 to stall, all the stalls run an Unaware mon now like Quagsire. Its matchup against balance teams is kind of a mixed bag.

I would have edited this into my last post but I think it is a little too relevant to be lost in an edit:
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha in Rain: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Hawlucha is far bulkier than you are giving it credit for, rain almost never carries priority so after elec seed boost it can set up on rain's most powerful physical attacker and proceed to damage. Also drain punch is a really underrated choice over poison jab/stone edge to allow you to take on offense better once Koko/zapdos are sufficiently weakened (iirc Koko only needs SR + 1 layer of spikes before a set up hawlucha ko's), and all the times I've faced hawlucha with offense it is the drain punch ones that are the most threatening. I do get completely why A- is too high reconsidering it (and edited my first post to say so, along with clarification about the scarf lando point) as stall doesn't care about it unless you can take out the unaware Mon and even then you can just burn it, but I think B+ is a far more reasonable placement for it than B.

 

[Gary]

I swear to god if I see one more post about Zone going to A+ you're getting infracted. I thought I stopped the discussion on the last page but apparently people need to keep attempting to compare dick sizes over the internet to prove a point. If a person is clearly very uninformed, take it to PMs, don't keep responding to them in here. It only just creates a bandwagon and shit will derail further. Also idk why people all of the sudden have felt the need to start trolling this thread with joke S rank noms but yeah keep doing that if you want to add some color to your profile.

 

[Sultan]

Yeah, Shuckle really needs to go down, to C if not C-. It's currently ranked above TR staples like Uxie and Cresselia, which would suggest that webs is more viable than TR, which it isn't (for instance, Shuckle went 0-3 in Snake, while Uxie had a more respectable 3-3). Plus, it is bait for hazard setters like Spikes Ferrothorn and T-Spikes Toxapex, which are kind of everywhere right now.

Agreeing with Hawlucha going up - after it boosts, offense has little for it aside from dual priority or a Mimikyu with its Disguise intact, the latter of which is pretty uncommon in today's meta. Neither Weavile or Mamoswine is seen very often either, and even Mega Pinsir has been falling off a little. Bulkier teams have a better matchup in theory, until you realize that they're more likely to give it a boost, and you don't really need the Unburden boost against them anyway.

And a couple noms of my own:

Amoongus B -> B-

Amoongus is in this awkward place between Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur's niches. While it's not the most horrible thing in the world, this means that it rarely will be the most optimal choice for a team, and its very low splashability should cause it to drop a rank. Plus, it really doesn't appreciate Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Tapu Koko being really common either.

Alakazam C -> C-

Focus Sash + Counter is telegraphed as hell, and beyond that it offers virtually nothing that other Pokémon can't do better. Clefable and Reuniclus are better Magic Guard users, while if I want hard hitting Psychic attacks I'd use Tapu Lele or Mega Zam.

Tapu Koko A+ -> S

Okay, this one's gonna be a little controversial, especially considering the above post about joke S nominations, but please hear me out.

Tapu Koko defines offense in the same way Toxapex defines balance. The role compression Tapu Koko provides for these teams is impressive (U-turn pivot, CelePex check, Greninja check, fast Taunt user, wallbreaker, terrain support, etc.). It's an extremely versatile Pokémon, with many different Z-Crystals it can use and viable physical and special sets, all of which can provide most if not all of the aforementioned roles and more. One thing which I feel it shares in common with Landorus-T is that it's really good at adapting to its "counters". For example, when people started using special walls like Chansey to counter it, Z-Wild Charge sets became common to break right through them. Similarly, with Ferrothorn becoming many teams' primary way of dealing with Koko, HP Fire became much more common. Plus, it provides great terrain support to Pokémon like Mega Diancie, Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, and Hawlucha. Tapu Koko is truly a metagame defining threat on the level of the other two S ranks, and I truly believe it is worthy of the prestigios S rank. Now, I can see why people would disagree with this nomination, but I thought I could start a little discussion on it.

 

[wisdom dog]

I think its hard to describe something as metagame defining when it really doesnt have the usage to back it up. Landorus and toxapex are metagame defining pokemon, which is shown by their 1st and 2nd (technically greninja is 2nd but this combines ash and protean, seperately they have less) respective usage in snake. However, tapu koko is 10th. Dont have a whole lot more to offer honestly, but i think if it was as defining of a pokemon as you say it is, it would have more usage than other offensive staples such as latios and gren.

 

[Spohky]

I think it should be stressed that S-rank noms should not be taken lightly. The criteria to reach S-rank is vague, but for good reason – it's intentionally kept vague so that mons can have multiple ways to achieve S-rank.

That being said, vagueness does not equate to openness. Your nomination basically says stuff like Tapu Koko can provide support and work around its checks, but it doesn't really tell me much about metagame effects. An S-rank mon has a phenomenal effect on the metagame, which must be provided by nominators. If you want to nominate Tapu Koko to S-rank, you have to elaborate the metagame effect Koko has had. Needless to say, your post doesn't say anything like this.

While the criteria to reach S-rank is vague, a good starting point is to evaluate how well it performs in the meta, how much it defines the meta, and how well it can survive the meta changing (usually against it). While Tapu Koko certainly does well in the meta, I don't see it necessarily defining or surviving the meta on comparable levels to Landorus-T or Toxapex.

 

[Leo]

Let's not forget that tour usage stats don't mean everything, a Pokemon could very well be viable despite seeing low usage in the tournament scene. I find snake usage stats to be a good way to back up your own arguments but throwing them onto the table like that just doesn't seem like a proper counter argument to me (not trying to attack anyone in particular here btw).

Anyhow, I personally don't agree with Tapu Koko rising atm or anytime soon. While it's one of the most threatening mons in the current meta due to how many sets it can run to bypass most of its checks found on bulky offense/balance like HP Fire, Z Wild Charge, etc it's not as splashable as Lando or Toxapex and hates this hazard heavy meta where it can't pivot around freely with hazards on the field. It also provides very little defensive utility since it just acts as a check to mons it outspeeds but cant switch into them at all, so you can't just plug it into teams that easily, specially when u have other mons that provide 0 defensive utility already. I know this is very brief but there's not much to say tbh, it's just hard to look at Koko the same way you would look at Landorus-T or Toxapex, both of which are extremely easy to add to a team and define the current meta. Koko is far from there and shouldn't rise anytime soon

 

[Dreadfury]

Tapu Koko is definitely nothing short of an incredible threat in OU. It has an array of different moveset options to effectively rewrite a good portion of its list of checks and counters, and it boasts an amazing Speed tier to back it up. But despite how incredible Tapu Koko is in this metagame, it isn't Lando or Pex. At all.

A long time ago, when Dugtrio was a thing, I made a very controversial nomination to put it in S and that was unanimously rejected, but I still had good enough reason to make that argument due to how influential its role as a trapper was when it was legal. And indeed, it was centralizing and restrictive enough to be banned. It just wasn't centralizing enough to be banned and a clear-cut S-rank threat. And when Magearna was S, it was because it was good at a variety of different things and amazing at a few of those. Shift Gear variants had just enough customization to beat almost anything. Bulkier pivot variants with Assault Vest still check a good number of special attackers and complemented Landorus-T incredibly well when Magearna was in its prime.

To shift to the current occupants of the S-rank, Landorus-T defines OU as a whole because of its versatility and role compression. It always seems to have something good going for it, be it an amazing ability, a good defensive typing with crucial immunities, or an expansive movepool consisting of powerful support options like U-turn, Knock Off and Stealth Rock, or a good offensive spread with an amazing base 145 Attack and the ability to nuke something with Flyinium Z, Rockium Z, or just a nice strong Earthquake. And the thing ages like a fine wine, too; every generation, or sometimes even between full generations, the kitty gets a new toy to play with, be it with a buffed Knock Off, offensive nukes in Z-moves to boost its more offensive sets, or bloody Defog in USuMo, seriously?. It's versatile and it can perform many roles simultaneously, akin to (read: a MUCH less overcentralizing version of) Ubers' Primal Groudon. It may not be the best at every single role it performs, but it performs enough roles for so many different playstyles and checks staples of so many playstyles that Landorus-T is very much S.

Alternatively, Toxapex is S because it defines many different variants of Stall and Balance while still being able to fulfill a variety of roles at once. It can check threats on both the physical and special ends of the spectrum. It can stack Toxic Spikes up like a champion. It can pivot into and out of hits thanks to its amazing ability. Its typing gives it a huge boon against otherwise terrifying threats like Volcarona and Magearna, which otherwise need to run coverage moves or get disgustingly high boosts to break it. But it can run Haze to eliminate all those boosts! And it can spread status unlike anything else, being able to poison or burn the overwhelming majority of the tier. Did I mention this cancer gets Knock Off in under a week too? Toxapex does a lot of essential stuff for fatter, less-offensive teams. Although Landorus-T is incredibly versatile and can therefore act as a consistently-viable option for many playstyles, Toxapex isn't quite as versatile but has the typing, stats, and movepool to make it incredibly specialized, to the point where no single teamslot can do even half of what it does.

What something needs to be S is incredibly vague, because there are many things that can make something metagame-defining enough to be S. But just as a lot of things can make something S, something needs to do a lot of things to be S in the first place. The problem with Tapu Koko is that it currently doesn't do enough to be S. It's very fast, it's pretty strong and can hit a ton of stuff on both ends of the defensive spectrum, but that's not good enough. Maybe it'll be a little closer to S material when Defog becomes legal on it, but as it stands it's just incredibly fast and strong. It doesn't completely define and dominate certain playstyles and it can't fulfill nearly as many roles as the likes of Toxapex and Landorus-T can.

TL;DR version: Tapu Koko from A+ --> S: Strongly Disagree

 

[AM]

Also the fact that the new games are coming out in a couple of days so this conversation of Tapu Koko or any sort of significant rank change doesn't matter as they might not even be applicable. We give Toxapex S more of pity cause people still aren't use to breaking it yet and it checks a bunch of shit so it's really easy to throw on a lot of shit and important to account for, the second point being vague though since that applies to most A rank mons. We give Landorus-T S cause it's just too strong in all aspects of what it does.

This is a personal request but I think it would be nice to close this until the new games come out. These discussion points don't really matter and if a change has to be made ranking team can do that. Once USUMO comes out this thread will be automatically outdated in need of changes, and we know how messy that gets during a transitional period.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

Yeah, Koko is in no way S rank worthy. I do agree with Lucha up (to B+; A- is way too far for this thing lol), Amoonguss down, Kazam to UR imo since Counter + Sash is just too easily seen these days and all the reasons people have given and Gallade-Mega down.

Also, is there any reason why Alolan Marowak is higher than the TR setters and Crawdaunt? I personally don't think it's better than them. It really only fits on TR - anyone who still uses this as a Koko and Magearna answer is crippling themselves at this point, and we have a million other breakers for other playstyles. I think Alolawak should move down to C. That's pretty much my only nom - the VR looks really, really good.

Also echoing AM's request to lock the thread until USUM, though I think that we should have one last update before they come out like how UU is doing it, but yeah I think discussion at this point isn't really needed because USUM will render a lot of it irrelevant.

 

[Gary]

I was going to leave this unlocked until sometime next week just in case we wanted to potentially make one more change, but considering people want to waste our time and post bullshit low ladder noms not gonna happen.

Also I've made an executive decision that's gonna suck and I'm probably going to get a lot of shit for it but when the new VR thread is posted for ULTRA SUMO I'm probably going to leave it locked for a long time. These last few weeks have been nothing but joke noms and shitposts that are purposely intended to derail the thread. I know people are probably bored, but if people aren't capable of keeping their shit together on a VR that is mostly complete, I can't imagine how bad it will be for a brand new thread. I'm sure I will unlock it again at some point but if it starts again I'm just gonna relock it. The mods are getting tired of babysitting this thread all day. People keep creating alts to troll the thread fsr I'm not sure why it's so bad or funny to people all the sudden but I guess I have too high expectations for a Pokemon forum lmao.

Call me a dictator idc.

finch edit: ^dictator