SM UU Viability Ranking Thread Mark Three

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Rabia

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Pidgeot-Mega: A -> A-
Recent trends in the meta have not been favorable to the once-fabled Jesus of birds. With Rotom-W and Jirachi simply existing and being so damn good, Pidgeot-M finds a difficult time spamming Hurricane. Not only that, but the rise of multiple Steel-types on teams also pressures Pidgeot-M into not clicking Hurricane whenever it wants. Plus, the increased viability of Pokemon like Manectric-M and Weavile due to Volt-Turn being busted and many of the latter's checks being banned really hurt the usability of Pidgeot-M. Pidgeot-M is still a solid Pokemon though, as being able to generate momentum with U-Turn is always welcome, as well as its still great Speed tier + Hurricane still being a strong Flying-type move.
 

pokeisfun

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Update for 9/23 - as always, feel free to discuss if your nomination was not mentioned or if it was declined, although more evidence and analysis will probably be helpful to get your point across. Images aren't working..sorry (cannot copy and paste for discussion points)


Newly Ranked

Jirachi --> S

Jirachi is S rank because it can run many sets, has no counters, can sweep at the last moment with Z Happy Hour, and can beat “counters” through hax (Iron Head flinches). It has a great matchup against top threats like Latias and Gardevoir Mega while its bulk lets it set up pretty reliably, and combined with a good speed tier, it is difficult to revenge kill using traditional methods like Scarfers and priority.

Altaria Mega --> A

Puffy fluffy is a major sweeping threat that needs to be accounted for because it can nearly always find a turn to set up and try to sweep. However, the ubiquity of Scizor and Ice Shard’s high usage means it is not difficult to fit counterplay on an average team. It can be argued that Altaria suffers from 4MSS, wanting Earthquake, STAB, Refresh, DD and Roost, but the argument can also be turned around and interpreted as Altaria Mega is very versatile.

Gardevoir Mega --> A+

This scary fairy has next to no switchins because of its versatility - Focus Blast, HP Fire, Shadow Ball, and Calm Mind combined with its STABs leave it without counters. Unlike other powerhouses, Gardevoir has slightly above average speed and importantly a very easy to spam STAB move in Hyper Voice so she can be exceptionally easy and strong to use. The lack of physical bulk and moderate Speed hinder her, but once she comes in, she puts almost unrivaled pressure on all teams.

Ampharos Mega --> C

Unfortunately rarely seen and discussed in this thread, C is a rather generous ranking. Theoretically usable on the very common Volt-Turn but also rarely chosen in favor of Rotom-W and Manectric Mega which offer crucial Speed.

Rotom (Wash) --> A+

While not a very powerful threat offensively (although Z Hydro Pump is quite strong), Rotom’s main niche is its ability to provide momentum and key resistances - extremely useful when paired with Scizor. This pivoting ability has shaken up the tier by making Volt-Turn dominant and is difficult to stop; one of Rotom’s only flaws is its average stats.

Nihilego --> B-

A couple of sets have been used, namely suicide lead sets and Choice Specs in terms of usage are the strongest. Choice Specs is surprisingly strong with Power Gem, which has good neutral coverage and as Rock resists are not at a premium, has a fairly easy time spamming. Suicide lead sets can effectively set hazards. Of course Nihilego’s terrible physical bulk and losing matchup versus threats like Latias and Scizor is a setback, but it is still usable in the metagame.

Manectric Mega --> A+

Extremely fast and moderately strong, Manectric Mega becomes an A+ threat when considering the popularity of Volt-Turn teams. It pairs well with the main U-Turn users such as Scizor because of its ability to put pressure on the special spectrum while it also pairs well with Rotom-Wash when using HP Grass. The dominance of Volt-Turn makes Manectric Mega a very easy to use and strong threat. And being a fairly solid Jirachi check - immune to Thunder Wave, resistant to Iron Head, access to Initimidate and neutrality to all relevant coverage - helps solidify Manectric Mega as an all around useful Pokemon.

Latias Mega --> A+

This new drop almost certainly has not been used to its full potential yet with Stored Power sets still being relatively rare and therefore underexplored. Even so, the power, speed and extraordinary bulk makes Latias Mega an extremely reliably choice at whatever it decides to do, usually as a sweeping tank with Calm Mind. There are a few too many threats for it to be completely dominant, but even those can be beaten by certain moves such as HP Fire for Scizor.

Smeargle --> C+

Not often seen but still a large asset to Sticky Web, Smeargle has a relatively low place in the metagame because of its fairly small niche. Not until either Sticky Web becomes more mainstream or Smeargle finds a new riche, will Smeargle’s viability increase.


Rises

Weavile A + --> S

Weavile is rising not because of any new set, but because of its new found ability to pressure basically every single Pokemon that does not have high physical bulk. Even Pokemon that are not weak to Pursuit are prone to being Pursuit trapped as long as Weavile can threaten them, which often makes it much easier for a teammate to do their job effectively. It has incredibly few switchins on offense.

Klefki A- --> A

While it was considered for a rise before the tier change, it has become even more clear now Klefki deserves a rise. It’s defensive utility is increasing as it can cripple Z Happy Hour Jirachi and beat Latias Mega and Gardevoir Mega. Additionally, Spikes offense, which Klefki is almost integral on totally eclipsing Froslass, is one of the dominant playstyles now along with Volt-Turn.

Infernape A- --> A

Infernape is one of the very few Pokemon that can somewhat reliably revenge kill Z Happy Hour Jirachi with its Choice Scarf set. Additionally, it is easy to fit on most teams in general as it can contribute to Volt-Turn cores and provides offense one of the fastest revenge killers.

Amoonguss B+ --> A-

Regenerator and few easily exploitable weaknesses means Amoonguss is also a fairly good check to Volt-Turn cores. Its old benefits like Spore and good bulk are as useful as ever, these traits make it one of the easiest bulky Pokemon to fit on teams. Eject Button is a fairly new trend that gives Amoonguss even more utility in trapping Scizor when used with Magneton.

Zygarde-10% C- --> B+

This large rise comes from the fact Volt-Turn is relatively weak to Zygarde-10%, especially with their over reliance on Rotom-Wash and Latias as a Ground immunity. The dominance of Scizor and lack of bulk stops it from rising further, but even Scizor dislikes taking CB Thousand Arrows.


Doublade B- --> B+

It has a difficult time countering the drops as Gardevoir Mega and Latias Mega can still do a lot despite the typing, the rise comes mainly from the fact after set-up, it now has a good chance to sweep through these threats with Shadow Sneak. A fairly good Jirachi counter is also always welcome. It can also run more defensive sets.

Magneton B- --> B

Similar to how Mageton’s usefulness on any given team increases with how weak that team is to Scizor, Magneton’s viability in the metagame is now increasing due to the increase in how weak the metagame is to Scizor right now. The large majority of teams are now using either Jirach or Scizor to deal with offensive threats as well as abuse Volt-Turn in the case of Scizor so Magneton’s rise is intuitive.

Gastrodon Unranked --> B-

Rotom (Wash) has breathed new life into this bulky water, which also serves as a very solid check or even counter to Weavile. It also beats Nihilego and HP Ice Mega Manectric. Basically Gastrodon’s favorable matchup against most Volt-Turn teams is a big boon to it, although its vulnerability to Spikes offense (as it gets 2HKO by Sharpedo Mega) and lack of good utility moves (hard to fit Clear Smog) stop Gastrodon just short of being truly mainstream.


Drops

Latias S --> A+

Most of the drops have been detrimental to Latias’ viability - Gardevoir Mega, Jirachi, and Latias Mega obviously trouble Latias or give her competition. And the rise of Weavile and Scizor also hurt badly. It’s true that her Z sets are still extremely dangerous and she offers good defensive utility, but metagame defining is no longer an apt description.

Aerodactyl Mega S --> A+

While it does not have a particularly bad matchup with any of the new drops - although being unable to revenge Z Happy Hour Jirachi is very unfortunate - many of the new drops have been Megas which gives old Megas a higher opportunity cost. Few of Aerodactyl Mega’s targets are rising in prominence while Scizor and Weavile are on the rise.

Pidgeot Mega A --> A-

Two major reasons for the drop - more opportunity cost to use a Mega and a very tough time against some drops like Rotom (Wash), Nihilego, and Jirachi. Pidgeot Mega itself is still good, but it has not really adapted to these new negatives.

Talonflame B --> B-

Rotom (Wash) gives Talonflame an extremely difficult time as it resists both STABs and can easily OHKO back. Overall, life has been harder for Flying types.


Raikou B+ --> C+

A large drop but it reflects the fact Raikou barely has a niche anymore with the other Electric types, namely Rotom-Wash and Manectric Mega. Raikou’s main set is now without a doubt Calm Mind, which can still be deadly with Z moves especially, so its still going to be ranked. However, being strong because of a Z move is hardly noteworthy in the metagame.

Rotom (Cut) B --> C

Rotom (Wash) has a better defensive typing, can run totally defensive sets more easily, and can abuse Hydro Pump more easily that Rotom (Cut) does Leaf Storm. It remains ranked due to its greater ability to pressure Water Pokemon, especially the Water Ground Pokemon.

Mega Absol B- --> C
It has become more and more apparent that Weavile, with access to an item, higher speed, and Ice STAB, is outclassing Absol Mega. All Absol really has over Weavile is Sucker Punch and Magic Bounce, but this is not often enough to distinguish itself, especially as it costs a very important Mega stone.

Tsareena C+ --> C-
It struggles badly against Scizor and was never an amazing spinner to begin with as it cannot break past two increasingly common Ghost types - Doublade and Chandelure. This is made all the worse because its bad at an important job, as Spikes offense is very strong.


Unranked

Milotic

It has too little utility when compared with other bulky waters, namely Tentacruel, Mantine, and Jellicent.

Bruxish

It certainly can function as a wall breaker but UU has no problem breaking walls right now.

Banette Mega

No longer in UU and as it was D ranked before, it no longer has a place in this thread.


Declined Nominations

Lucario remains C+
It has a very hard time setting up and while it can be a potent sweeper, there are usually more reliable options. Most offense teams will have one way to revenge kill even after set up.


Discussion Points

Hydreigon A- --> A

Fits well on Volt-Turn, the resistances are useful. Choice Specs is seeing something of a resurgence. However it is pretty much unable to revenge kill Jirachi.

Steelix Mega B+ --> B

Suffers badly from Rotom (Wash) and a surge of Aggron Mega is giving serious competition. However its matchup with Manectric Mega is not so bad.

Slowbro B+ --> B

Once again a discussion point, this time it is because it fairs not so well with Volt-Turn everywhere.

Gliscor A+ --> A

No longer a very good Electric immunity since all the main Electric types now run HP Ice or Hydro Pump as standard moves. However it still can be a potent sweeper and even almost OHKOs Rotom (Wash) after a boost if offensive.

Sharpedo Mega A+ --> S

One of the ultimate sweepers because of its above average power, extremely easy set up with Protect, and potency with Spikes. But the big issue of no defensive utility remains.
 
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I agree with all the discussion points except for Mega Steelix drop. It has solid matchups against most the drops. It also has an electric immunity, although Rotom W can undermine this. Overall, keep Mega Steelix B+.
 
to A-
Assuming that it was supposed to be B+ to A-, I abstain this nomination. For me, it's really hard to make this decision as one set beats a variety of mons, and another set doesn't, but does it's own thing. For one, Scarf Hydreigon can revenge kill Mega Manectric, non-scarf Jirachi, and Mega Gardevoir (if weakened). However, the problem it's mostly unable to revenge kill Jirachi, which I find to be a huge issue. Like the OP mentioned, Specs is making a return, but I don't see it as useful as scarf. And, for that, I'm going to abstain.

to B
I agree with this nomination, since the rise of Mega Aggron has certainly hurt this Pokemon, as well as the existence of Rotom-Wash. The only reason I wouldn't like this Pokemon any lower is because it kills Weavile, and walls Jirachi for the most part. Also, like the OP mentions, it's MU against Mega Mane is pretty nice, which is also why I'd use it. However, I just don't believe it's B+ material, which is why it should drop to B.

to B

This Pokemon just hates VoltTurn, and with Mega Mane, Latias, Hydreigon, Rotom-Wash, and others running around it's become too much for this Pokemon. Also Weavile just kinda comes in and ends it's life, as well as Mega Sharpedo. Basically, there's just too much running around for this Pokemon to do what it does best: wall, which is why it needs to move down to B.

to A

One of Gliscor's biggest things was being an electric immunity, but for the most part it doesn't do that anymore, thanks to the addition of Mega Manectric and Rotom-Wash. Despite this, it's still a great Pokemon in my opinion, being able to stall break and sweep teams. That's why it's not dropping any lower, but it's certainly no longer A+ material.

to S

This Pokemon is by far this best Pokemon in the tier right now. It was already good pre-drops, but now that we have Pokemon like Jirachi, Mega Latias, and Mega Gardevoir running around, this Pokemon is virtually unstoppable, being able to Crunch though a large part of the meta-game. It could be argued, however, that Pokemon like Mega Manectric check (thanks to intimidate), as well as the fact that Rotom-Wash needs to be weakened for it to sweep. For one, no Pokemon beats everything, just like the three S rank Pokemon (I guess Jirachi is able to beat everything, but that's besides the point). In terms of Rotom-Wash, no Pokemon is able to sweep from turn 1, and Mega Sharpedo is no different. For that, Mega Sharpedo for S rank.
 
gliscor to drop from A+ to like A or A-
all the new megas threaten it pretty hard, it cant reliably check Z-jirachi, rotom threatens it but also gliscor can play the luck game and try for dodges. being 4x weak to HP ice makes it a bit less appealing than Hippo imo
 
Kinda busy rn, but Gliscor is A+ material for sure. The new megas do threaten it, yes, but they also complement it near-perfectly. When it comes to Volt-Turn - a super-hot play style rn, Gliscor's ability to set up rocks, wall a good many threats and still keep momentum is invaluable to what is likely the best archetype rn. In addition, Double Dance Gliscor has been on the rise recently because it's a great sweeper. It has lost some of its defensive utility in checking electrics, yes, but in turn, its place on VoltTurn and its ability to sweep keep its incredible versatility and solidify it as an A+ mon to me.
EDIT: Alright, so I have some time now, I'll go over these:

Hydregion belongs in A. The defensive utility a dragon type can provide right now is incredible. They hard wall Rotom-Wash, and this offensively checks tons of threats. Scarf is great in this meta as it provides good speed control - though not being able to revenge kill Rachi sucks, if you can account for it with another member it will not disappoint in the utility and power it provides. Definitely on par with the other A ranks rn.

Steelix-Mega sucks rn, drop pls. With Rachi and Scizor being the premier steel types, even defensively, there's no way this is gonna be half as good, with the opportunity cost and all. And before people say it can handle Mane, it can use Overheat instead of Flamethrower too (viable because of sp def rachi), which hits for a ton of damage Steelix can't recover. Def. drop.

Slowbro needs to drop to B. Rotom-Wash and Mane, two great mons rn, absolutely dump on it. Most physical attackers can get around it too, with Spikes and U-turn rising. Psychic/water is decent but not great in this metagame. Also, unrank Slowking. This is unable to check any decent special attacker because water/psychic is just not very good right now. It's a terrible Fighting check as well. 100% outclassed by any other bulky water rn.

I'm indifferent about Shark rn.

Anyways, about the post below me: Yoshi and Hilomilo are absolutely right in saying that Zygarde-10% has no place in B+. B- imo even then is a bit too generous. It's just so weak, and having that spammable STAB move and checking so many threats is great but its MUs vs the drops are exaggerated af. Rotom-Wash loses, yeah, but Scarf Rachi can use Ice Punch - not bad in this meta with the dragons and all that are weak to ice - and just one-shot it, Mane laughs at it, and the rising Hydregion is also laughing here. It's also note mentioning that Weavile, another mon on the rise, easily kills it. Such a drastic rise was definitely uncalled for and imo this needs to drop to B- or even C+.

That being said, Raikou doesn't need to rise rn. It does have a good niche in Calm Mind but it's not great at it. An electric type that doesn't fit into volt turn as well as the others is going to be pretty badly outclassed. And while Raikou can run an item, Rotom-Wash can too, and it tends to outclass Raikou at all of these, even being a Z move user as I've seen Z-Hydro gaining success. It has some moves that Wash doesn't have but that doesn't justify it because Wash doesn't need these moves. Raikou is over reliant on Z-moves to break past electric answers when Wash only needs Hydro for that. Raikou is just an awkward middle ground between these two that doesn't provide half the defensive utility while lacking key aspects that they do - the speed of Mane, the typing and bulk of Rotom. I'll likely elaborate more on this later but as of now I'm definitely against a Rai rise.

While we're at it, just drop Ampharos-Mega to D. It's not good at all in this meta. Electric/Dragon is pretty bad if you're slow af and promptly outsped and killed by any offensive team. It faces far too much competition as a Dragon, an Electric and a Mega to warrant use on any team.

Not much else to say rn, I just wanna hug an Altaria-Mega :P.
 
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After some discussion with Hilomilo, we both agreed that some of these rises/drops were very uncalled for, in terms of the amount of subranks they rose.

to B-
There's just no reason this thing should've rose 5 ranks. Sure, it can pressure Jirachi, but a lot of other ground types do this as well. It may crush VoltTurn too, which it certainly does, Mega Mane revenge kills as well as Hydreigon and Scarf Rachi, all three of which are used on VoltTurn. Not to say that this Pokemon doesn't have a niche, it certainly does, but rising this much is certainly unacceptable.

to B-
Even the OP mentions that this is a large drop. The only "real" reason it was decided to drop this far down is because other electric types exist. In my opinion, you can't really compare Rotom-Wash to Raikou, as Raikou has access to moves different than Rotom. As for Mega Mane, Mane is obviously better but Raikou does have a few things over Mane. For one, Raikou can run an item, such as a z-move as mentioned in the OP. Raikou also has access to a boosting move, Calm Mind, which Mega Mane doesn't. So, not to say other electric types outclass it, they shouldn't the sole reason that we nuke a Pokemon.
 

Darksafadao

best of the second options
to A
I agree.
The specs set has become a lot more viable with the drops of Jirachi (used as a spdef wall in some teams) and Mega-Altaria (often used as the fairy of some teams, but hydra can pressure in early game and get a kill before it mega evolves). With this new set, the opponent has to think twice before switching in and assume it's just a scarfer. Almost nothing switches in safely. Its coverage goes from Flash Cannon to hit fairies that dare to come in to Superpower for Blissey (not really common) and U-turn to keep momentum. It really fits well in volt turn teams at the moment, wallbreaking opposing teams and having an okay speed to u-turn and make the strategy flow. As always, its typing and ok bulk makes it a nice switch in for mons like Crawdaunt, making it have a defensive roles sometimes.
 

Jordy

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After some discussion with Hilomilo, we both agreed that some of these rises/drops were very uncalled for, in terms of the amount of subranks they rose.

to B-
There's just no reason this thing should've rose 5 ranks. Sure, it can pressure Jirachi, but a lot of other ground types do this as well. It may crush VoltTurn too, which it certainly does, Mega Mane revenge kills as well as Hydreigon and Scarf Rachi, all three of which are used on VoltTurn. Not to say that this Pokemon doesn't have a niche, it certainly does, but rising this much is certainly unacceptable.

to B-
Even the OP mentions that this is a large drop. The only "real" reason it was decided to drop this far down is because other electric types exist. In my opinion, you can't really compare Rotom-Wash to Raikou, as Raikou has access to moves different than Rotom. As for Mega Mane, Mane is obviously better but Raikou does have a few things over Mane. For one, Raikou can run an item, such as a z-move as mentioned in the OP. Raikou also has access to a boosting move, Calm Mind, which Mega Mane doesn't. So, not to say other electric types outclass it, they shouldn't the sole reason that we nuke a Pokemon.
upload_2017-9-24_20-48-50.png

the only move raikou gets that rotom doesnt that is somewhat usefull is hyperbeam
edit: and extrasensory if u want to be some wack lure set
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
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Why is every time Gliscor mentioned in the last page, something along the lines of "it's not a very good electric check" accompanies it? You never used Gliscor as an Electric check because every Electric type we've had for the last 6 months has had the potential to run HP Ice or has been Rotom-Mow, meaning you could never rely on it to be an Electric check anyway. I'm indifferent on whether it moves up or down, but how it performs vs Electric types shouldn't have a bearing on it as that hasn't changed, you have never relied on Gliscor to check Electrics without running a secondary check like Pert.
 

faded love

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Hyper Beam is not a move you would ever use, Calm Mind on the other hand is a great one that you forgot.
Hold on a minute. I don't get why hyper beam isn't a usable move when it's LITERALLY one of Raikou's best moves with Normalium Z,and you would think that CM as an advantage would be inherently obvious. I would HIGHLY advise you to lurk more and learn more about the meta.


Update for 9/23 - as always, feel free to discuss if your nomination was not mentioned or if it was declined, although more evidence and analysis will probably be helpful to get your point across. Images aren't working (cannot copy and paste for discussion points) - I will edit tomorrow or ask a moderator to.


Newly Ranked

Jirachi --> S

Jirachi is S rank because it can run many sets, has no counters, can sweep at the last moment with Z Happy Hour, and can beat “counters” through hax (Iron Head flinches). It has a great matchup against top threats like Latias and Gardevoir Mega while its bulk lets it set up pretty reliably, and combined with a good speed tier, it is difficult to revenge kill using traditional methods like Scarfers and priority.

Altaria Mega --> A

Puffy fluffy is a major sweeping threat that needs to be accounted for because it can nearly always find a turn to set up and try to sweep. However, the ubiquity of Scizor and Ice Shard’s high usage means it is not difficult to fit counterplay on an average team. It can be argued that Altaria suffers from 4MSS, wanting Earthquake, STAB, Refresh, DD and Roost, but the argument can also be turned around and interpreted as Altaria Mega is very versatile.

Gardevoir Mega --> A+

This scary fairy has next to no switchins because of its versatility - Focus Blast, HP Fire, Shadow Ball, and Calm Mind combined with its STABs leave it without counters. Unlike other powerhouses, Gardevoir has slightly above average speed and importantly a very easy to spam STAB move in Hyper Voice so she can be exceptionally easy and strong to use. The lack of physical bulk and moderate Speed hinder her, but once she comes in, she puts almost unrivaled pressure on all teams.

Ampharos Mega --> C

Unfortunately rarely seen and discussed in this thread, C is a rather generous ranking. Theoretically usable on the very common Volt-Turn but also rarely chosen in favor of Rotom-W and Manectric Mega which offer crucial Speed.

Rotom (Wash) --> A+

While not a very powerful threat offensively (although Z Hydro Pump is quite strong), Rotom’s main niche is its ability to provide momentum and key resistances - extremely useful when paired with Scizor. This pivoting ability has shaken up the tier by making Volt-Turn dominant and is difficult to stop; one of Rotom’s only flaws is its average stats.

Nihilego --> B-

A couple of sets have been used, namely suicide lead sets and Choice Specs in terms of usage are the strongest. Choice Specs is surprisingly strong with Power Gem, which has good neutral coverage and as Rock resists are not at a premium, has a fairly easy time spamming. Suicide lead sets can effectively set hazards. Of course Nihilego’s terrible physical bulk and losing matchup versus threats like Latias and Scizor is a setback, but it is still usable in the metagame.

Manectric Mega --> A+

Extremely fast and moderately strong, Manectric Mega becomes an A+ threat when considering the popularity of Volt-Turn teams. It pairs well with the main U-Turn users such as Scizor because of its ability to put pressure on the special spectrum while it also pairs well with Rotom-Wash when using HP Grass. The dominance of Volt-Turn makes Manectric Mega a very easy to use and strong threat. And being a fairly solid Jirachi check - immune to Thunder Wave, resistant to Iron Head, access to Initimidate and neutrality to all relevant coverage - helps solidify Manectric Mega as an all around useful Pokemon.

Latias Mega --> A+

This new drop almost certainly has not been used to its full potential yet with Stored Power sets still being relatively rare and therefore underexplored. Even so, the power, speed and extraordinary bulk makes Latias Mega an extremely reliably choice at whatever it decides to do, usually as a sweeping tank with Calm Mind. There are a few too many threats for it to be completely dominant, but even those can be beaten by certain moves such as HP Fire for Scizor.

Smeargle --> C+

Not often seen but still a large asset to Sticky Web, Smeargle has a relatively low place in the metagame because of its fairly small niche. Not until either Sticky Web becomes more mainstream or Smeargle finds a new riche, will Smeargle’s viability increase.


Rises

Weavile A + --> S

Weavile is rising not because of any new set, but because of its new found ability to pressure basically every single Pokemon that does not have high physical bulk. Even Pokemon that are not weak to Pursuit are prone to being Pursuit trapped as long as Weavile can threaten them, which often makes it much easier for a teammate to do their job effectively. It has incredibly few switchins on offense.

Klefki A- --> A

While it was considered for a rise before the tier change, it has become even more clear now Klefki deserves a rise. It’s defensive utility is increasing as it can cripple Z Happy Hour Jirachi and beat Latias Mega and Gardevoir Mega. Additionally, Spikes offense, which Klefki is almost integral on totally eclipsing Froslass, is one of the dominant playstyles now along with Volt-Turn.

Infernape A- --> A

Infernape is one of the very few Pokemon that can somewhat reliably revenge kill Z Happy Hour Jirachi with its Choice Scarf set. Additionally, it is easy to fit on most teams in general as it can contribute to Volt-Turn cores and provides offense one of the fastest revenge killers.

Amoonguss B+ --> A-

Regenerator and few easily exploitable weaknesses means Amoonguss is also a fairly good check to Volt-Turn cores. Its old benefits like Spore and good bulk are as useful as ever, these traits make it one of the easiest bulky Pokemon to fit on teams. Eject Button is a fairly new trend that gives Amoonguss even more utility in trapping Scizor when used with Magneton.

Zygarde-10% C- --> B+

This large rise comes from the fact Volt-Turn is relatively weak to Zygarde-10%, especially with their over reliance on Rotom-Wash and Latias as a Ground immunity. The dominance of Scizor and lack of bulk stops it from rising further, but even Scizor dislikes taking CB Thousand Arrows.


Doublade B- --> B+

It has a difficult time countering the drops as Gardevoir Mega and Latias Mega can still do a lot despite the typing, the rise comes mainly from the fact after set-up, it now has a good chance to sweep through these threats with Shadow Sneak. A fairly good Jirachi counter is also always welcome. It can also run more defensive sets.

Magneton B- --> B

Similar to how Mageton’s usefulness on any given team increases with how weak that team is to Scizor, Magneton’s viability in the metagame is now increasing due to the increase in how weak the metagame is to Scizor right now. The large majority of teams are now using either Jirach or Scizor to deal with offensive threats as well as abuse Volt-Turn in the case of Scizor so Magneton’s rise is intuitive.

Gastrodon Unranked --> B-

Rotom (Wash) has breathed new life into this bulky water, which also serves as a very solid check or even counter to Weavile. It also beats Nihilego and HP Ice Mega Manectric. Basically Gastrodon’s favorable matchup against most Volt-Turn teams is a big boon to it, although its vulnerability to Spikes offense (as it gets 2HKO by Sharpedo Mega) and lack of good utility moves (hard to fit Clear Smog) stop Gastrodon just short of being truly mainstream.


Drops

Latias S --> A+

Most of the drops have been detrimental to Latias’ viability - Gardevoir Mega, Jirachi, and Latias Mega obviously trouble Latias or give her competition. And the rise of Weavile and Scizor also hurt badly. It’s true that her Z sets are still extremely dangerous and she offers good defensive utility, but metagame defining is no longer an apt description.

Aerodactyl Mega S --> A+

While it does not have a particularly bad matchup with any of the new drops - although being unable to revenge Z Happy Hour Jirachi is very unfortunate - many of the new drops have been Megas which gives old Megas a higher opportunity cost. Few of Aerodactyl Mega’s targets are rising in prominence while Scizor and Weavile are on the rise.

Pidgeot Mega A --> A-

Two major reasons for the drop - more opportunity cost to use a Mega and a very tough time against some drops like Rotom (Wash), Nihilego, and Jirachi. Pidgeot Mega itself is still good, but it has not really adapted to these new negatives.

Talonflame B --> B-

Rotom (Wash) gives Talonflame an extremely difficult time as it resists both STABs and can easily OHKO back. Overall, life has been harder for Flying types.


Raikou B+ --> C+

A large drop but it reflects the fact Raikou barely has a niche anymore with the other Electric types, namely Rotom-Wash and Manectric Mega. Raikou’s main set is now without a doubt Calm Mind, which can still be deadly with Z moves especially, so its still going to be ranked. However, being strong because of a Z move is hardly noteworthy in the metagame.

Rotom (Cut) B --> C

Rotom (Wash) has a better defensive typing, can run totally defensive sets more easily, and can abuse Hydro Pump more easily that Rotom (Cut) does Leaf Storm. It remains ranked due to its greater ability to pressure Water Pokemon, especially the Water Ground Pokemon.

Mega Absol B- --> C
It has become more and more apparent that Weavile, with access to an item, higher speed, and Ice STAB, is outclassing Absol Mega. All Absol really has over Weavile is Sucker Punch and Magic Bounce, but this is not often enough to distinguish itself, especially as it costs a very important Mega stone.

Tsareena C+ --> C-
It struggles badly against Scizor and was never an amazing spinner to begin with as it cannot break past two increasingly common Ghost types - Doublade and Chandelure. This is made all the worse because its bad at an important job, as Spikes offense is very strong.


Unranked

Milotic

It has too little utility when compared with other bulky waters, namely Tentacruel, Mantine, and Jellicent.

Bruxish

It certainly can function as a wall breaker but UU has no problem breaking walls right now.

Banette Mega

No longer in UU and as it was D ranked before, it no longer has a place in this thread.


Declined Nominations

Lucario remains C+
It has a very hard time setting up and while it can be a potent sweeper, there are usually more reliable options. Most offense teams will have one way to revenge kill even after set up.


Discussion Points

Hydreigon A- --> A

Fits well on Volt-Turn, the resistances are useful. Choice Specs is seeing something of a resurgence. However it is pretty much unable to revenge kill Jirachi.

Steelix Mega B+ --> B

Suffers badly from Rotom (Wash) and a surge of Aggron Mega is giving serious competition. However its matchup with Manectric Mega is not so bad.

Slowbro B+ --> B

Once again a discussion point, this time it is because it fairs not so well with Volt-Turn everywhere.

Gliscor A+ --> A

No longer a very good Electric immunity since all the main Electric types now run HP Ice or Hydro Pump as standard moves. However it still can be a potent sweeper and even almost OHKOs Rotom (Wash) after a boost if offensive.

Sharpedo Mega A+ --> S

One of the ultimate sweepers because of its above average power, extremely easy set up with Protect, and potency with Spikes. But the big issue of no defensive utility remains.
My first issue right off the bat is Nihilego at B- . It is fairly above the mediocrity of B- and deserves a place at B+. It sets hazards effectively, Scarf sets can be an effective cleaner, and Specs is an extremely strong wallbreaker with good stab coverage to boot. 103 speed while not great, certainly is good as it outspeeds MGarde and MAlt, and can serve as an offensive check to both. Other than the obvious physical bulk problem I don't see a reason to put it so low.

Then, you raise Zygarde 10% an astounding five tiers to B+. Now, I get that the meta favors it, but I don't think it's changed to the point where it's among the likes of Tentacruel and Suicune, mons that are very splashable, and fit on many builds while simultaneously having flexible move options, something Zygarde doesn't have. It still offers no defensive utility as well as MMane outspeeding it and KOing it with Hidden Power Ice makes it fit better into B-/B.

Rotom-C to C is frankly a terrible idea. It has major advantages over Rotom W. Leaf Storm is the more spammable secondary STAB than Hydro Pump, and frankly it outclasses Rotom-W at offensive sets due to better STAB complements in by Grass beats Water AND Ground types so people won't be as willing to switch their ground types in on an obvious volt like Rotom W.

Now, onto Raikou. C+ is a severe under appreciation of it. It is certainly better than Shuckle and Smeargle. Raikou has better special attack and ability to break than Rotom W. In comparison to MMane, it is lesser but CM + Z Move sets are still extremely deadly, and it frees up a mega slot, which those two factors combined are noteworthy enough it not being so astonishingly low.

post on discussion slate to come later in the week.

 

dingbat

snek
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Weavile getting the love it deserves, woo n_n

B+ --> B-: Idk why this rose so high when Zydoge in practice holds very little defensive utility even compared to shit like Crawdaunt and 115 speed simply isn't good enough in certain situations. Definitely deserves some degree of hype since 1k arrows is definitely like 50x better now, but B+ isn't the right place for it right now.
B+ --> B-: I'm arguing for an even steeper drop for this because it just struggles really badly in this meta right now, and imho it's not just volt-turn that's completely screwing it over right now; the rise of Fairy-Mag screws it over, and even though physical attackers like Weavile will never outright KO, at the very least they are preventing Slowbro from setting up Calm Minds. Quite simply, it cannot do its job nearly as well in this meta right now.
C- --> UR: Again, why is there an absolute need to keep this ranked
D --> C-?: Would argue for this thing to rise out of D rank since this thing is the one thing in this tier that literally hard checks/counters the entire S rank and is low-key still annoying despite being... rather shit

Also offensive Rotom-W is really good...
 
Weavile getting the love it deserves, woo n_n

B+ --> B-: Idk why this rose so high when Zydoge in practice holds very little defensive utility even compared to shit like Crawdaunt and 115 speed simply isn't good enough in certain situations. Definitely deserves some degree of hype since 1k arrows is definitely like 50x better now, but B+ isn't the right place for it right now.
B+ --> B-: I'm arguing for an even steeper drop for this because it just struggles really badly in this meta right now, and imho it's not just volt-turn that's completely screwing it over right now; the rise of Fairy-Mag screws it over, and even though physical attackers like Weavile will never outright KO, at the very least they are preventing Slowbro from setting up Calm Minds. Quite simply, it cannot do its job nearly as well in this meta right now.
C- --> UR: Again, why is there an absolute need to keep this ranked
D --> C-?: Would argue for this thing to rise out of D rank since this thing is the one thing in this tier that literally hard checks/counters the entire S rank and is low-key still annoying despite being... rather shit

Also offensive Rotom-W is really good...
I wouldn't be so sure of Arcanine. Scizor U-Turns out, so it's still not a very good answer to it. Weavile has Knock, which will do a ton of damage to it and cause it to lose the precious leftovers - which sucks as Hippowdon I've noticed is seeming to rise in usage. Rachi can U-Turn out, set up SR, and it can toxic on the switch in which is really bad for arcanine. I would keep this in D.
won't argue with the bro drop tho, it's bad. Slowking still needs to go to UR Imo, really bad as a bulky water rn.
 
Hold on a minute. I don't get why hyper beam isn't a usable move when it's LITERALLY one of Raikou's best moves with Normalium Z,and you would think that CM as an advantage would be inherently obvious. I would HIGHLY advise you to lurk more and learn more about the meta.




My first issue right off the bat is Nihilego at B- . It is fairly above the mediocrity of B- and deserves a place at B+. It sets hazards effectively, Scarf sets can be an effective cleaner, and Specs is an extremely strong wallbreaker with good stab coverage to boot. 103 speed while not great, certainly is good as it outspeeds MGarde and MAlt, and can serve as an offensive check to both. Other than the obvious physical bulk problem I don't see a reason to put it so low.

Then, you raise Zygarde 10% an astounding five tiers to B+. Now, I get that the meta favors it, but I don't think it's changed to the point where it's among the likes of Tentacruel and Suicune, mons that are very splashable, and fit on many builds while simultaneously having flexible move options, something Zygarde doesn't have. It still offers no defensive utility as well as MMane outspeeding it and KOing it with Hidden Power Ice makes it fit better into B-/B.

Rotom-C to C is frankly a terrible idea. It has major advantages over Rotom W. Leaf Storm is the more spammable secondary STAB than Hydro Pump, and frankly it outclasses Rotom-W at offensive sets due to better STAB complements in by Grass beats Water AND Ground types so people won't be as willing to switch their ground types in on an obvious volt like Rotom W.

Now, onto Raikou. C+ is a severe under appreciation of it. It is certainly better than Shuckle and Smeargle. Raikou has better special attack and ability to break than Rotom W. In comparison to MMane, it is lesser but CM + Z Move sets are still extremely deadly, and it frees up a mega slot, which those two factors combined are noteworthy enough it not being so astonishingly low.

post on discussion slate to come later in the week.
Since I made the nomination for Nihilego to be ranked at B- I shall explain my reasoning behind the choice a little better since both you and Dingbat have thought it a bit too low.
First off, the B rank is home to some fairly important staples for a couple of team archetypes, namely Blissey and Alomomola for stall, and Azelf for hyper offense, with A-Muk getting a special mention for being really good on balance (even though balance is terrible right now), the others in B rank are less solid but mostly have a rather desirable trait, like Magneton's ability to remove Scizor. Meanwhile Nihilego's only real claim to fame is that it's a fast poison/rock type with rather high special attack, it's noteworthy for sure, but not exactly B rank material.
Second off, the meta is pretty unfavorable to Nihilego right now. Jirachi and Scizor are common sights in matches, as is Rotom-Wash, Infernape, Klefki and M-Sharpedo to name but a few. While Nihilego does outspeed the Fairy types in UU, it struggles to come in safely with all the aggressive threats running around, partly due to it's rubbish defensive typing which hinders what would otherwise be amazing special bulk.
And finally, Azelf itself does the whole ''offensive rocker'' thing generally better thanks to having much higher speed, a wider movepool (Fire Blast is a godsend), and the ability to stop hazard removers from doing their job. Dingbat brought up the point that Nihilego can run Z-moves to beat some Defoggers/Spinners, which is a fair point, but that's not exactly a trait that's exclusive Nihilego and it costs your Z-crystal slot to do it.

As for the rest of your post, I mostly agree aside from the Rotom-C stuff and the baffling comment about Leaf Storm being more spammable then Hydro Pump. Water is a far better offensive typing then grass because far less things resist it, and even if that wasn't the case Hydro doesn't come with the tiny little issue of reducing your SpA, meaning you can actually spam it without any major drawback unlike Leaf Storm.
As much as I love Mowtom and will sing it's praise every chance I can, it's sock-eating brother is for the most part better, sad to say.
 

Jordy

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I would like to note that u misspelled Mega Abomasnow on the rankings, just my autism irritating me lol. Sorry for the 1 liner.
 
I really see a lot of problems with Hydreigon these days, much more than before the changes in the tier, to raise it in rank. with the new pokemon that have arrived at Hydreigon it affects to him very much to be caught in a movement. in addition to that threats like M-Gardevoir or M-Altaria give him many problems, and his set scarf lost much confidence with the arrival of Jirachi. I do not know, I always enjoyed using Hydreigon because it has always been a beast in UU, but currently with what is suffering I do not see the reason to raise its rank.

In my opinion currently his best set is still the Scarf, focused on Volt-turn teams. his set Specs removes to Hydreigon his condition of RK occupying him then like Wallbreaker, and although it is still a beast it leaves very conditioned to the predictions of the rival.

So I think Hydreigon should at the moment stay in A-.
 
"The lack of physical bulk and moderate speed hinder her"

Remember last time when people thought a mon wasn't totally borked because one of its defenses was low and it's speed was mediocre l e l



Anyway, I'm in support of all of the rises/drops/discussion points except for the Zydoge and Raikou ones. Sure, Zygarde matches up well against most if not all of the drops, but that's no reason to put it with stuff like Empoleon and Mega Aggron. It still loses to HP Ice variants of Mega Manectric, Rotom-W can beat it 1v1 easily with Hydro, etc. B- is probably the place for it because Thousand Arrows has become more spammable, yes, but not to the degree that's being hyped up.

Like said, Raikou doesn't deserve to drop all the way to C+ (is this thing really on the level than Decidueye/Feraligatr?) As stated, it does different things than Rotom-W, with Rotom-W being a bulky pivot and Raikou being a nice and fast setup sweeper. Manectric gives it a lot of competition but like said CM gives it automatic points over Mane as it can muscle past common electric checks such as both Latiases and Mega Alt with Z-Hyper Beam, which is a very potent move on its own. B-/even B is good, but C+? no way. sorry if this post was redundant I'm tired af

tmw everyone disagrees with your Weavile to s nom but it rises anyway
 


Just want to do this before I forget, while it got a pretty terrible showing in my most recent SSD game Poliwrath is a super underrated mon if only because we allow Weavile, the most broken thing ever, in this tier. Wrath walls it really well, and in a tier with hazard stack a Circle Throw RestTalk set can be incredible useful, as Weavile itself reduces the viability of ghosts. There are unfortunately some hard-walls for Wrath (one of which, Jellicent, I ran into, basically stopping it 100%) but it's niche is definitely there. I'm nominating it to C.
 
Maybe B+ is slightly too high as a jump but I think a lot of people are underselling what makes Zydog so good at the moment. I've used it quite a lot recently to a reasonable degree of success and the power really isnt as underwhelming as many people are suggesting considering how offensively orientated the meta is at the moment. Very few mons avoid being 2hkod by arrows. Paired with Mega-Manectric in a voltturn core (I used scarf rachi, mane + sciz) it's by no means dead weight against bulky teams either as people seem to suggest. The speed tier is good enough to outspeed most things that it needs to with the right support. It's never going to beat a whole team single handedly as people seem to expect it to do. It's never going to stay in for more than 2-3 turns. But it never has a useless matchup unless you use 6 ice shard mons. It has trouble with being pursuit trapped by things like Krook and Weavile but you 2hko Krook if you have 1 spike up and Weavile has limited switchins due to rocks and potential LO damage so it's not exactly like it's useless against teams that have either mon. And if you build your team correctly you'll have things to switch into the various priority users the tier has to offer.
It's certainly no worse than anything in B at the moment, and it's easily as effective as the likes of Volcanion and Crawdaunt at the current time. No one builds a team at the moment needing a ground resist because it's easy to just abuse the dozens of levitate mons/flying types we have at our disposal. I personally think B+ is perfectly reasonable.
Anyway, I'm in support of all of the rises/drops/discussion points except for the Zydoge and Raikou ones. Sure, Zygarde matches up well against most if not all of the drops, but that's no reason to put it with stuff like Empoleon and Mega Aggron. It still loses to HP Ice variants of Mega Manectric, Rotom-W can beat it 1v1 easily with Hydro, etc. B- is probably the place for it because Thousand Arrows has become more spammable, yes, but not to the degree that's being hyped up.
252 Atk Choice Band Zygarde-10% Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 200+ Def Rotom-Wash: 264-312 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
idk what world youre living in where rotom-w 1v1s zydog but it's not mine
 

pokeisfun

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Obviously some of you have legitimate concerns on why Zygarde 10% is B+

I'll preface by saying the vast majority of the metagame (let's say at least 70%) is contained in A- rank to S rank. So focusing on Zygarde, no matter how egregious you think it is, is still only a small part of the metagame. I'm not saying you're wasting your time talking about it, discussion is fine, but I'm asking you to keep perspective.

Anyways, to quell your discomfort, I will tell you why I put Zygarde in B+
The metagame can change without any external influence. By this I mean, there are clear, persistent, and strong trends in the metagame that happen organically without any tier drops, new move tutor moves, or anything of that sort. One example is Latias, which was A+ rank before UUPL really started to get going. It became S rank when people stopped using "inferior" (they aren't bad, just not optimal) sets in Defog and started to use Z Latias sets. Another example is Conkeldurr at the same time, when people didn't think it was even B+ rank worthy, until the power of Flame Orb sets discovered.

When Zygarde was at C-, it was seeing next to no usage in major games and was basically abandoned because nobody could use its best set, Choice Band, effectively. However, this was a mistake on the playerbase's part because Zygarde, as I will argue later, had at least C+ potential, just nobody knew about it yet. This potential comes from abusing it on Spikes offense, which was not previously utilized. So already, when I ranked it before at C-, it was underrated. Just nobody knew about it, like nobody knew about Flame Orb Conkeldurr or Z Venomoth in previous metagames.

And then I noticed a few posts in this thread saying Zygarde was getting better, which made sense because it had a favorable matchup against a majoity of the drops. Additionally, I lost a few games on the ladder to it when using Volt-Turn and noticed how strong it was when paired with Spikes against my stall team, even losing a game.

So at this point, I understood Zygarde was previously underrated when at C- and even just became better, relative to its previous "true" ranking of C+ or B-, because of the drops.

Finally, I noticed someone post a nomination from C- all the way to A- for Zygarde, which is obviously huge, but it wasn't as if their reasoning was wrong. I decided to compromise and make it B+, after noticing the other nominations were B-.

Then I posted the update and upset many of you. Sorry.

Reading many of your posts made me doubt myself in the ranking, so I decided to make my own Zygarde team (I did not even use Zygarde prior to the last update) with Spikes.

You can search my replays under "Zygarde for B+" I saved all but a handful, after playing 63 games total because somebody complained to me that my previous experience was too small to be statistically significant (by the way, we aren't running statistical tests here so...). Here are a few of my results, representative of Zygarde's abilities.

After playing these games, I am more convinced that Zygarde should remain B+.

But I did read all your posts and play 60+ games because I feel very much like this is your community project so you deserve a say. Let me tell you why your arguments don't convince me:

5 ranks is too much of a rise?

It's big, but I explained before it was underrated. There is no point in doing small drops for the sake of small drops when the evidence suggests a different ranking.

Zygarde is too weak defensively?

You should think of Zygarde like Weavile - incredibly hard to switch into offensively, easy to use STAB, and a great speed tier. Weavile is also weak defensively. But it still succeeds overall; in any case you guys misrepresent Zygarde's defenses as it can switch into Rotom Wash sometimes and Nihilego and resisted moves from Nidoking and Terrakion and others. It's bad, but not Sharpedo.

Zygarde is too weak offensively?

You guys are probably both underestimating how useful Spikes support is and the power of Choice Band in general, for example it gets an easy 2HKO on max HP Mega Latias with SR. SR means nearly all offensive threats cannot switch in. Spikes too means a good portion is just OHKOd.


The main reasons Zygarde is rising are because of how strong it is with Spikes, the trend against using Ground resists (in favor of immunities like Latias and Rotom (Wash) and the fact it was underrated before. Weavile is the best analogy I can think of, just a bit slower and weaker and less utility, which is why it's much lower than Weavile.

So far, none of you who have argued for B- have addressed these points and all of you have exaggerated the weaknesses. B+ is still the most reasonable option. Feel free to discuss other Pokemon or keep on discussing Zygarde, but only if you have something new to add.
 

dingbat

snek
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
To be fair I bashed Zydoge's defensive abilities a bit excessively since I definitely did not utilize it on my teams in the most optimal ways possible, but the real reason why I personally couldn't see Zydoge in B+ rank yet was because I wasn't seeing enough tangible evidence as of when you initially moved it there, despite seeing myself and Sparrow testing it post-drops. That being said, I have absolutely no issue seeing things go up many sub-ranks at a time if they absolutely deserve to, and in the case of Zydoge, I'm perfectly aware of its potential as well as its deficiencies. In addition, I am also in agreement that the lack of Zydoge usage in Snake Draft right now is a huge misrepresentation of its potential in this meta since a lot of people don't realize how legit of a threat this actually is.

Another example I will provide was from when I ran the VR thread back in late 2014/early 2015; I initially wanted to place Serperior in A rank but everyone and their mothers wanted Serperior in B or even B- rank because they didn't realize how potent Serperior's support moves were against supposed counters/revenge killers like Crobat, and lone behold it got banned shortly after I stopped hosting the thread. Basically I ran into a similar situation as you although I don't think there was as much backlash since I instead decided to temporarily unrank Serp for a few more days.

I will not speak on behalf of anyone else because this is just my opinion on this, but I have two things to take from this: I'm damn fucking glad replays are finally back and those replays definitely helped address my main issue, although I still want to see a lot more people actually utilize this.
 
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