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Laga

Forever Grande
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This meta is very genious indeed, I can even boast to have played the creator himself in ( a game of which he totally haxed me to death) imeanwut.

Anyways, a couple of notable outstanding threats I can tell you about from experience:

Cloyster:
Keeping the same speed and now boasting a base 180 Atk stat, this is probably just going directly to ubers. Not only is it now more of a powerhouse, but it also now has a respectable Special Defense stat, meaning that it won't die off to weak STAB moves from defensive pokes. Definately a poke to consider banning, or at least using :P

Azumarill:
Huge Power Base 80 Atk. Not to be messed with guys. This thing is so damn increadible. A choice banded Aqua Jet in rain does about 60% to a 252/0 version of itself. nothing is reliably taking repeated hits from this thing. The other good thing about it, is that it KOs Regice and Regirock outside of rain, 2 massive threats of this metagame.

Politoed:
With notable forces one can use through rain (most notably Azumarill's Aqua Jet), this not only becomes a reliable poke to helping your teammates, but it can also now dish a shitload of damage out. With it's new base 100 SpA, the oh so powerful SpecsToad now has become even huger of a threat. This thing steals so many KOs, it's mindblowing.

Cobalion:
I know a lot of you others here in this thread have found out that this thing is a Terrakion with better defenses, but i'd still like to emphasize how good this thing is. It is effectively exactly like a terrakion in all stats, with better defensive typing. This means it has an easier time to set up an SD, effectively making it a more reliable SD sweeper than normal OUs Terrakion. Which of course, is threatening enough already >_>

Roserade:
This pokemon has become a whole new one. It now has base 70 Def and base 125 SpD. This has revolutionised it's job of spiking, as a good investment in Defense and HP will shake off those water types, most notably Azumarill and Politoed, even outspeeding Politoed as well. This new added bulk now also gives it an even better use of Rest, as it can heal off the damage taken without worrying about taking a big hit on the resting turn, and as always, Natural Cure will help you out of Sleep.

Virizion:
Obviously now effectively a Keldeo, but with grass / fighting type instead. This is surprisingly effective for running a Choice Scarf set, as it counters a lot of the above mentioned threats ( Poli, Cobalion, Azumarill ), and can dish out good damage with it's newly gained base 129 SpA. Not as outstanding a sweeper as Cobalion, but definately has a notable niche as a wallbreaker / revenge killer.

Tentacruel:
Tentacruel in normal OU is known for it's good bulk and rain dish, with rapid spin support. Stat Exchange has completely changed it. It is now a fast Special attacking sweeper. With the swap, it has now gained base 120 SpA, and keeping it's base 100 speed, invested it will outspeed stuff. I like using it on a rain team with a Life Orb. this allows you to effectively only take 4% from LO recoil, due to Rain Dish. Giga Drain can also help heal it up.

Hopefully this project will grow big, and maybe even become playable on main in different tiers ( SE UU, SE OU etc. ). Funny how such a simple idea can make such great changes :] props for the great idea Electro o/
 
I can see trick room being very viable in this meta, as many pokemon that were originally slow, bulky walls are now transformed into lightning fast powerhouses, such as the regi's. Reuniclus becomes a more bulky trick room setter, with 110/65/125 defenses. Alakazam could be used to set up trick room, seeing as he becomes pretty bulky on the special side, but still has laughable physical defenses. I can easily see teams consisting of one or two suicide trick room setters, and several slow, powerful pokemon.

EDIT: Lol... Ferrothorn becomes a really slow, frail, and powerful wallbreaker with 131/116 offenses. Could he go mixed?
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Some stats:


STAB- Ice/Water
Common attacks: Icicle Spear, Rock Blast, Razor Shell


Resists Ice/Rock, immune to Water
90 HP, 85 Defense w/ Water Absorb
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 300-355 (78.12 - 92.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Resists Icex4, Rock/Water
84 HP, 86 Defense
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 200-235 (53.76 - 63.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Resists Ice/Rock
100 HP, 100 Defense
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jirachi: 321-380 (79.45 - 94.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Resists Rock
95 HP, 85 Defense w/ Unaware
252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 300-355 (76.14 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Resists Ice/Water
79 HP, 85 Defense w/ Unaware
252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bibarel: 200-240 (55.24 - 66.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Resists Ice, Water
65 HP, 95 Defense w/ Intimidate
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 285-340 (85.32 - 101.79%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO


Resists Ice
160 HP, 110 Defense w/ Thick Fat
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Skill Link Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Snorlax: 340-405 (64.88 - 77.29%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Resists Ice, Rock
144 HP, 120 Defense w/ Thick Fat
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Cloyster Razor Shell vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hariyama: 285-335 (57.92 - 68.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not many competitive Pokemon can handle Cloyster. Some Fighting-types can come in on a predicted Rock Blast (or Icicle Spear for Fighting/Fire or Fighting/Steel mons) and retaliate with Vacuum Wave.
The Hitmons, Gallade, and Lucario can all survive Rock Blast.
 
This would totally change up the metagame. but switching HP and speed would also make since. im just imagining blissey with 135 special attack and 255 speed...
 
This would totally change up the metagame. but switching HP and speed would also make since. im just imagining blissey with 135 special attack and 255 speed...
Too bad it still has paper defenses. Hitmontop says hi with Vacuum Wave and Mach Punch.

I see Hitmontop as being the MVP of a lot of teams as it checks so many of these new powerhouses, like Shuckle, The Regis, Kyub, Blissey, Cloyster, etc.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
What about . . .


80/150/75/150/75/50
Mixed Registeel w/ RP and LO?
Its STAB beats its brothers Regice and Regirock plus it resists their STABs.
It can run Iron Head, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, Flash Cannon, Focus Blast, Thunder/bolt, and Superpower.


60/115/100/85/70/90
While he's not as strong, he has Shift Gear and Gear Grind and that's about it.


Sandslash is a bit stronger now with 110 Attack and Sand Rush.


Slaking is so physically bulky it's not fair. Too bad he can't do anything. :[
 
Shedinja now has a much more solid 1/90/30 defensive spread.

On a more serious note, most of OU's top priority abusers such as Scizor, Lucario, and Breloom are pretty much out of the picture considering their new defensive spreads. I can see Imposter Ditto being more viable than it is now, considering all these new behemoths with massive attack stats and mediocre defenses.
 

apt-get

it's not over 'til it's over
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Actually, only by Shuckle, as it can (in theory) OHKO Regirock, but Shuckle has Sturdy.
252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regirock: 268-317 (73.62 - 87.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Regirock: 268-317 (89.03 - 105.31%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO


That's with the tier shift stats. Arcanine only has a 31.25% chance to OHKO 0/4 Regirock, while the most common variant is 252/4.
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regirock: 268-317 (73.62 - 87.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Regirock: 268-317 (89.03 - 105.31%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO


That's with the tier shift stats. Arcanine only has a 31.25% chance to OHKO 0/4 Regirock, while the most common variant is 252/4.
Freaking TS stats throwing off my calcs again haha. You're right though.
 
Cresselia makes a nice Scarfer, with her new 130 Special Attack. Throw in Lunar Dance, and you can give your Cloyster or other sweeper a second chance. If only she got Earthquake for that 120 Attack...

EDIT: Has anyone tried Scarf Cloyster yet?
 

EV

Banned deucer.
So we have an idea about the big threats.

[Shell Smash, Icicle Spear, Rock Blast, Razor Shell w/ Skill Link]
[Curse, Rock Polish, Stone Edge, Superpower, Hammer Arm, Drain Punch, Ice Punch, ThunderPunch w/ Sturdy]
[Rock Polish, Blizzard, Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast w/ Ice Body]
[Swords Dance, Iron Head, Close Combat, Stone Edge, Thunder Wave w/ Justified]
[Aqua Jet, Ice Punch, Superpower, Waterfall, Double-edge w/ Huge Power]
[Calm Mind, Psyshock, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, HP Fire/Fighting, Grass Knot, Trick w/ Levitate]
[Calm Mind, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Shadow Ball, Softboiled w/ Natural Cure/Serene Grace]
[Shell Smash, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Earth Power, Gyro Ball, HP Ice w/ Sturdy]
[Curse, Rock Polish, Gyro Ball, Iron Head, Heavy Slam, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Crunch, Aqua Tail, Thunder Fang, Ice Fang, Fire Fang w/ Sturdy/Sheer Force]
[Agility, Swords Dance, Brave Bird, Drill Peck, Iron Head, Rock Slide, Night Slash, Roost w/ Sturdy/Weak Armor]
[Rock Polish, Curse, Iron Head, Flash Cannon, Thunderbolt, Focus Blast, Superpower, Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, ThunderPunch, Earthquake w/ Clear Body]
[Calm Mind, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Ice Beam, Shadow Sneak, Earthquake, Pursuit w/ Pressure]
[Rock Polish, Hone Claws, Head Smash, Iron Head, Heavy Slam, Earthquake, Ice Punch, Aqua Tail, Superpower w/ Rock Head/Sturdy]
etc

Here are some Pokemon to consider that have a chance to counter, wall, and/or beat them:

Physical

89/90/145/80/105/91
Intimidate/Sheer Force
Thanks to Intimidate and a massive Defense stat, Landorus-T makes a great check to some big physical threats like Regirock and Shuckle without HP Ice. For instance, with Intimidate and max HP/Def+ it takes less than half (40.31-47.9%) from a 252+ Choice Band Shuckle's Stone Edge. With a still decent 90 base Attack, it can retaliate with a STAB Earthquake, a 2HKO on Regirock, Steelix, Cobalion, Blissey, and Registeel, and of course OHKOs Shuckle (with Sturdy broken).
We all know it has access to Stealth Rock and U-turn, but it can run a bulky tank set with Bulk Up alongside EQ and Stone Edge or Knock Off to remove an incoming Cloyster's Life Orb or White Herb.


144/60/120/60/40/50
Thick Fat/Guts/Sheer Force
I really like the idea of a physical Fighting-type wall that can sponge Rock-type attacks from the likes of Regirock and Shuckle but also halve Ice and Fire damage, too, making it a good check to Cloyster (see my above post for damage calc).
Problem is, with such a weak base 60 Attack it no longer can hit back very hard even with super effective attacks like Close Combat or Hammer Arm. This generally puts it in a strictly utility role with moves like Whirlwind, Knock Off, Counter, and Toxic. While Hammer Arm is a decent choice for an attack since Hariyama never minded the Speed drop and doesn't really want to suffer the downsides of Close Combat, it also has Force Palm (for dat parahax), Seismic Toss, and Bullet Punch to play around with plus Bulk Up. You can even consider Vacuum Wave since its Special Attack is the same as its Attack and hits Cloyster, Regirock, Steelix, and Aggron on their weaker Special Defense.


95/80/135/80/110/100
Intimidate/Moxie
In the similar vein as Landorus-T, Salamence relies on its giant Defense coupled with Intimidate to take tiny amounts of damage from some physical hitters. Sadly, most physical terrors have a super effective STAB Rock or Ice attack to hit Salamence with and none are weak to its STABs or take too little damage from a non-STAB EQ off base 80 Attack.
If Salamence can get in safely it can support its team with Wish, Tailwind, and Roar and heal itself if needed with Roost (but Wish is more helpful).


Special
/

79/70/105/80/145/101
Volt Absorb
or
90/85/90/90/125/100
Pressure/ Lightningrod(unreleased)
I stated before that Thundurus-T makes a good Cobalion check with a resistance to Close Combat, Iron Head, and immunity to Thunder Wave. Zapdos fills a similar niche, but without the T-Wave immunity. Both make superb Special Walls, however, and come with unique benefits.
Thundurus-T is bulkier and faster while Zapdos hits a tad harder with a loss in some bulk. Both run STAB Volt Switch. Thundurus-T gets a fast Taunt but Zapdos can Toxic+Roost+Pressure stall (except on the plethora of Steel-types in this tier). Thundurus-T has a wider offensive movepool and can hit Steel-types hard with Focus Blast or Superpower, Cresselia with Crunch or Dark Pulse, and boosts with Bulk Up and Nasty Plot. Zapdos can nail Steels with Heat Wave but lacks ways to tackle other threats.


91/106/90/106/130/77
Flash Fire/Flame Body
Trading its usual ability Flash Fire for Flame Body, Heatran becomes a deterrent for physical mons relying on contact moves for damage. Besides absorbing things like Steelix's Gyro Ball or anything Skarmory does, it shrugs off special hits like Dusknoir's Shadow Ball, Regice's Blizzard, specially based Registeel, and just about all of Blissey's attacks with ease. It lacks good recovery and often relies on an Air Balloon to avoid EQs and Earth Powers. It still sets Stealth Rock, and runs Torment, Taunt, Roar, Lava Plume, Will-O-Wisp, and Earth Power. Decent dual attack stats let it actually damage enemies--albeit not as hard as it used to--better than most its bulky cousins.


110/75/65/85/125/30
Overcoat/Magic Guard/Regenerator
Thanks to the stat switch, Reuniclus enjoys a huge boon to its special bulk while retaining a comparable amount of physical bulk. Add on Magic Guard and the coveted Trick Room. What else could you ask for? Well for starters, dual screens, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Trick, Knock Off, Recover, and Night Shade. Sadly it is very slow and outsped by the Regis, Aggron, and its nemesis Dusknoir. At least Gyro Ball will hit for less damage and it resists Cresselia's STAB. Psychic doesn't play well for Reuniclus to attack, so Night Shade is usually better or even Drain Punch if you want to get crazy.


70/115/70/90/130/60
Magnet Pull/Sturdy/Analytic
With Magnet Pull, Magnezone can still function as it once did by trapping and removing Steel-type threats but with a much less powerful Special Attack. It does remain an absolute thorn in Skarmory's side with a x4 resistance to both its STABs and a super effective Thunderbolt to send it packing. Base 60 speed also lets it outrun Aggron and Registeel. After some prior damage an HP Ground should finish them. It struggles with most other attackers though since it loses out to mixed Shuckle and Dusknoir's EQ and Regice and Blissey's Focus Blast.


Mixed

125/100/170/90/120/95
Teravolt
So it's weak to Rock, Fighting, and Steel, three common attacks in this tier. Likewise it's weak to Stealth Rock. But it has 170 base Defense! And it's a friggin' Dragon. Which by the way means it carries Dragon Tail. Plus it can set up dual screens, Toxic, and heal with Roost and thanks to Teravolt, it breaks Sturdy with a nice 100 Attack and 90 Special Attack (good for a wall). While its STABs won't hit many of the noted threats for lots of damage, it has many other options like Fusion Bolt for Cloyster, Azumarill, and Skarm and Earth Power for the Steels and Rocks.
Oh, and this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B in rain: 74-87 (16.29 - 19.16%) -- possible 8HKO (Superpower does it in, though)


170/45/90/45/90/60
Water Veil/Oblivious/Pressure
You knew this was coming. It's like Alomomola on crack. But it so wished it had Wish. Key resistances to Steel, Water, and Ice let it go toe to toe with Azumarill, Cloyster, Cobalion, Steelix, and Aggron. While it can't attack worth anything, it can Roar out a boosting Cloyster, forcing it to take SR damage next time it switches in. Scald, Toxic, and Protect are other good options. Aqua Ring is possibly feasible. Too bad it doesn't learn Wish.


110/65/123/65/100/65
Blaze/Reckless
WTF? Hear me out. Its dual STAB hits 9 of the 13 threats listed above and while 65 in both attacking stats isn't much, it has many high powered attacks and boosting options in Bulk Up and Work Up to increase those stats overtime. It does fear Ground, Water, and Flying from the likes of Steelix, Cloyster, and Skarmory, but those three are outsped with a Choice Scarf and handily OHKOd by Overheat (Steelix and Skarmory) or Superpower (Cloyster) with Stealth Rock on the field (which is needed to break Skarmory and Steelix's Sturdy in the first place).
The flaming pig also runs support options like Will-O-Wisp, Yawn, Toxic, Roar, Taunt, and even Scald. With its myriad of attacks and awesome all around bulk it truly gives most teams a run for their money.


Other ideas

Thick Fat, Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Reflect, Light Screen, Body Slam, Roar all wrapped up in 110/130 defenses. Doesn't like Gyro Balls, Iron Heads, or Razor Shells though.

It's the poor man's Steelix. No longer an offensive Rapid Spinner, Excadrill now likes to play defense with 110/135 physical bulk. Besides spinning it also sets Rocks but really lacks other support. It can't attack worth much so often will rely on Toxic. Its Special Attack is slightly higher, giving it an edge with Earth Power on the weaker Special Defense of most Rock- and Steel-types. It does have a fast Magnet Rise to beat Steelix and walls Skarmory.

Bulkier than before and still packs a wallop with base 130 Attack. Has the usual at its disposal: Dragon Tail, Stealth Rock, EQ, Stone Edge, and Megahorn for Cresselia. Plus there is Solid Rock. Don't forget about that. Eviolite Rhydon is a good contender, too, but loses Solid Rock.

It can actually be a mixed wall with 150/80/90 defenses but makes a good check to physical mons with Will-O-Wisp and supports with Haze, Knock Off, Magic Coat, Tailwind, Trick, Thunder Wave, and a quick Destiny Bond or Sub+Disable antics. It also has Aftermath for a nice parting gift. Being immune to Fighting, Normal, and Ground was never a bad thing, either.

A humongous 160 HP and 110 Defense and Thick Fat are essential for Snorlax to play a physical wall well. It statuses with Body Slam, Yawn, and Toxic. With a nice 110 base Special Attack it can run moves like Fire Blast, Surf, and Focus Blast to good effect.

Like its Intimidating brethren, Gyara shines with impressive physical bulk and a key resistance to Cobalion's dual STAB. Unlike most other walls on this list, it can actually hit back with some power thanks to a base 100 Special Attack. Scald or Surf and Fire Blast or Flamethrower hit the Rock-, Ice- and Steel-types named in the threat list above for good damage. It also runs Dragon Tail, Taunt, and Thunder Wave to good effect. It loves walling Azumarill, too.


Something to note: walls that got bulkier from Stat Exchange:
Amoonguss
Gastrodon
Vaporeon

EDIT: Added Azumarill, Kyurem-B
 

apt-get

it's not over 'til it's over
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

Breloom
Poison Heal / Technician / Effect Spore
HP: 60
Attack: 80
Defense: 130
Special Attack: 60
Special Defense: 60
Speed: 70

I feel that Breloom could fare decently in this meta. Good defense + resists rock + Spore + Stun Spore + Leech Seed + Poison Heal + Decent attack means he could be nice to check the top threats, since it gets a fuckload of recovery to make up for its lackluster stats. Maybe a spore/leech seed/protect/Drain Punch or Seed Bomb set could be used to good effect? It can cripple a threat for the battle with spore, gets a TON of recovery with drain punch + leech + poison heal to check them durably during the battle.

252+ Atk Choice Band Regirock Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 112-132 (34.56 - 40.74%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Regirock Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 149-176 (45.98 - 54.32%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


It will never get 2HKOed by CB regirock's stone edge, probably the most powerful attack in the tier after Shuckle's, and can just protect to recover 25% of its health with two turns of poison heal.


252 Atk Choice Band Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Breloom: 177-208 (54.62 - 64.19%) -- 92.58% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Cobalion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 235-277 (72.53 - 85.49%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


He can't take Cobalion's hits too well, though, but who can apart from Lando-T?
 
Anyone else realize how better Tangrowth walls both physically and specially now? While now having 140 attack.
Please tell me how that's not broken... Funny how no one mentioned him yet..
 
1. Tangrowth only has base 125 attack in this metagame. You might be mixing in the Tier Shift changes.

2. I recall someone posting about how Tangrowth is the new standard for bulky offense, what with his 100/100/110 mini-Giratina defenses.
 
One relevant threat that hasn't been mentioned yet is Relicanth. It's now the strongest physical Swift Swim Rain Sweeper. With a Jolly nature and in the Rain, it has 359 attack and 459 Speed. This does mean that you'll have to sacrifice Rock Head, but STAB Stone Edge off of a base 130 Attack still deals massive damage. With STAB, Rain-boosted Waterfall, Earthquake, Double-Edge or Zen Headbutt, and a Life Orb, Relicanth can dent special walls like Reuniclus easily. I know Cloyster is much stronger, but Relicanth is different in that it doesn't need a turn of setup and Cloyster is pretty vulnerable after a Shell Smash unless it has White Herb, in which case it sacrifices the power of Life Orb.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
1. Tangrowth only has base 125 attack in this metagame. You might be mixing in the Tier Shift changes.

2. I recall someone posting about how Tangrowth is the new standard for bulky offense, what with his 100/100/110 mini-Giratina defenses.
Tangrowth would make a good Sun abuser with Chlorophyll.

@ Life Orb/Expert Belt w/ Chlorophyll
Jolly 252A, 252SP, 4HP
-Power Whip/Seed Bomb
-Earthquake
-Brick Break/Rock Slide
-Swords Dance/Synthesis

Easily walled without Rock Slide by Flying-types like Intimidate Salamence and Landorus-T, the latter regardless if it has Rock Slide or not. Can't go mixed with 40 base power Special Attack. Hits most threats hard, though, like Cloyster, Regirock, Regice, and Azumarill. Still very bulky so it doesn't fear much retaliation.
 
Hustlin'

Although that these pokemon aren't as threatening as some others, I'd still like to note that Togekiss and Corsola now have much better attack stats, making Hustle viable for them. However, they are still outclassed by Durant.

Corsola


55/85/55/85/65/35

Togekiss


85/95/50/115/120/80

NOTE: Togekiss is bulkier than Durant.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
It's me again. >.>


75/95/100/70/40/110 - Sheer Force
Dat Speed. Dat Special movepool. Dat Work Up.
Flamethrower.
Ice Beam.
Thunderbolt.
Dat comparable Attack from before.


90/100/85/125/95/85
Hurricane, Ice Beam, HP Ground, Roost? Give it rain support.

Hustle Togekiss sounds cool. Extremespeed... drool.
Drain Punch for those Steels and Rocks that resist STAB.
Aerial Ace cuz it doesn't miss.
 
I'm disappointed in you guys, you forgot the last regi. It has 110/160/80 defenses, and 110 Spa (which is not lowered by slow start, you're thinking of defeatist.) I haven't tried it yet, but it seems interesting.
 
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