Soldiers Are Not Heroes

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For anyone who has Facebook, here's the link to check it out.

I recently became aware of this movement and opinion, and wonder what other people think about it.

In my opinion, the movement is completely reasonable, and makes sense. Its purpose is to "point out the absurdity of the many groups on Facebook (and elsewhere) that portray all soldiers to be heroes and shower the armed forces with unconditional praise". It basically is saying that it's taking a stand against the hivemind of people saying that every soldier is a hero, pressuring people into joining the military.

That being said, they do say that soldiers can be heroes, that they can do heroic things, but the act of putting on a uniform does not make you a hero.

Any opinions, either for or against this ideal?
 
I have never really got the point of this "soldiers are heroes" ideal. They can do so stuff that might be considered heroic by some people but imo the troops are just trained killers.
I have had some veterans talk shit to me about not having respect for them. For all I know they are just people who have killed another person or would have been willing to kill one. I guess it is a little nobler to kill for your homeland than for personal gain but it's still wrong.
Anyway I might rewrite this post as it didn't quite came out as I wanted it to be and writing on my phone isn't that fast to begin with.
 
It is an incredibly difficult decision to put on a uniform and risk one's life for one's country. In the end, it really depends how you define "hero". To me, a hero would be someone saving my life or my way of life, and every one of the soldiers that follows orders and does a decent job carrying out his/her duty clearly fits that bill. So, to me, almost all soldiers are heroes.

However, I do agree that many do not even consider why soldiers are heroes before throwing out exorbitant praise, and I also agree that there are many soldiers who are not doing their duty, or doing it poorly, in which case they are not "heroes" by my definition.

I can see the point behind this movement, but in the end, the reality is that the vast majority of men and women in the armed services are risking their lives to protect freedom and democracy, and that is certainly heroic. The killing is not wrong at all, Losa, if it is just and the only option. Sometimes violence can be a good thing. In the end, a death now is better than 10 down the road. And soldiers, if they are doing their duty, both have the courage to make that choice AND the courage to risk the possibility that it will be their life lost.

Most soldiers are heroes, and to focus on the negatives or the exceptions simply demeans one of the bravest and most capable portions of any society.
 
In my opinion, the movement is completely reasonable, and makes sense. Its purpose is to "point out the absurdity of the many groups on Facebook (and elsewhere) that portray all soldiers to be heroes and shower the armed forces with unconditional praise". It basically is saying that it's taking a stand against the hivemind of people saying that every soldier is a hero, pressuring people into joining the military.

And like so many other times in history I see that the best way to fight a "hivemind" is to join with a bunch of other people who think the same ideas in a group led by someone else. Sure sticking it to the man with that mindset.


As much as I think it's inherently obvious that saying everyone in any group is (insert adjective here... or noun in hero's case, I guess) is a ridiculous concept, I find groups like this one to be particularly distasteful. I have some pretty major philosophical differences with the army of the country I live and with basically every army everywhere, but I have to figure if these people just wanted to shoot bitches they'd stay home and play Call of Duty. Whether or not I agree with them, or with why my government is sending them to fight, these people are risking their lives to at least attempt to make things better for we civilians. I find groups like that one(and really that general mindset) to be pretty immature, and I can't imagine too many of those fifteen thousand people would be too willing to take up arms themselves if needed. Amazing how people criticize things they're unwilling to do themselves.


I think I should probably add that I'm sure a majority of the people in that group are in it largely because they don't think there should be any wars anywhere, which is great, and I would wager nearly everyone everywhere in the entire world who isn't directly profiting from war would agree with that statement. However, I think it kind of goes back to the concept of being "immature" I mentioned before - I think it is incredibly myopic and at best foolish to think that we could just lay down our arms and the world would be any better off(or at least, the situation of the now defenseless country would be better off). I'd certainly prefer for combat to cease to be, but it's awfully impractical to expect it to be so by some force of magic - war is a reality for the foreseeable future and for the entirety of humanity's past.
 
I think the main reason I agree is because of the huge amount of people who automatically think that being a soldier warrants a huge amount of respect. And not only that, but there also seems to be this public opinion that you should join the army, and if you don't, you're a coward.

And Synre, I'm one of those 15,000 who would not join the army or risk my life in the army. This is not because I don't have the rocks for it. It's just that I don't think we should have an army, and that I have doubts about the opinion that we need an army to defend our way of life. Why can we not be the bigger man and be the first to stop fighting?

And another reason I dislike people who hero worship soldiers is because their main reason for worshiping soldiers is that they're keeping terrorists out of our country. But are they not soldiers themselves, purely on a different side? And who's to say our judgment is absolute? If I recall correctly, was it not the American government itself that created the hatred of America in the Middle East? Did we not push Iran into a dictatorship after overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953? Did this not cause deep hatred for the Americans? And then that hatred spread to other neighbouring countries. So I dunno, maybe we should all worship soldiers and aspire to be in the army. But I'm still against it.
 
I would say that soldiers in general are heroes, but that they're not the only heroes out there, and that specific soldiers may not be heroes. That's all there is to it.
 
And like so many other times in history I see that the best way to fight a "hivemind" is to join with a bunch of other people who think the same ideas in a group led by someone else. Sure sticking it to the man with that mindset.


As much as I think it's inherently obvious that saying everyone in any group is (insert adjective here... or noun in hero's case, I guess) is a ridiculous concept, I find groups like this one to be particularly distasteful. I have some pretty major philosophical differences with the army of the country I live and with basically every army everywhere, but I have to figure if these people just wanted to shoot bitches they'd stay home and play Call of Duty. Whether or not I agree with them, or with why my government is sending them to fight, these people are risking their lives to at least attempt to make things better for we civilians. I find groups like that one(and really that general mindset) to be pretty immature, and I can't imagine too many of those fifteen thousand people would be too willing to take up arms themselves if needed. Amazing how people criticize things they're unwilling to do themselves.


I think I should probably add that I'm sure a majority of the people in that group are in it largely because they don't think there should be any wars anywhere, which is great, and I would wager nearly everyone everywhere in the entire world who isn't directly profiting from war would agree with that statement. However, I think it kind of goes back to the concept of being "immature" I mentioned before - I think it is incredibly myopic and at best foolish to think that we could just lay down our arms and the world would be any better off(or at least, the situation of the now defenseless country would be better off). I'd certainly prefer for combat to cease to be, but it's awfully impractical to expect it to be so by some force of magic - war is a reality for the foreseeable future and for the entirety of humanity's past.

Bolded the main points I agree with here. He has a point. If every soldier only just wanted to shoot people, they could stay home and play video games. Very few people who join the army join because they get to headshot someone. They join because someone needs to protect their country and the civilians in said country from threats. They join to fight for those who can't, and for those who won't.

The next point, the one with people criticizing others of joining the army, when they won't. That ties in to what I was saying above. They fight for those who can't, and for those who won't. So, while you may be here criticizing them, they're over there fighting to keep you safe and secure, whether you like it or not. They are fighting for you, someone they don't even know, while you're here criticizing them for doing what you won't, but someone has to do, so, I find it in incredibly bad taste that you would criticize them.

Everyone who doesn't make money off of going to war wants war to stop. But, in order to stop war, we can't just simply stop fighting. It will take much more than throwing your gun in a river and walking away. Sure, maybe you will stop fighting, but there's no guarantee the guy you were shooting at will do the same. In order for world peace to ever happen, everyone in the world will all need to agree with everyone else. This is incredibly hard to achieve. Sure, maybe one day peace will be achieved, but for now and in the near future, war is a way of life. It's hard to accept, but, it is true. War is part of human nature, and it always has been. You can't just get rid of that by simply walking away from a conflict. Do you remember Vietnam? You Americans just walked away from them, saying you "won" the war, when the only thing you did was decide the war was a stupid idea, so you left them to fend for themselves. I only use this to prove that simply walking away from conflict doesn't get rid of it.


As for the actual topic, not all soldiers may be heroes, but a damn good number of them are. Don't criticize them for doing something you won't, and is necessary.
 
Well, in my opinion, it's not necessary. With every war won, there's a side that loses, a side that bears grudges. World War 1 ended, Germany went into a depression. Through this depression, (and forgive the reducio ad Hilterum) Hitler was able to convince people to follow him, because he gave someone to blame.

And another thing, I don't understand your point about how I'm criticising the army when I won't join it myself. Of course I wouldn't join a system I disagree with. That's like saying "I have a problem with people who complain about the Labour Party, but won't vote for them during the elections". I guess you point is relying on the view that the military is necessary, but in my opinion, it really isn't.

I'm not saying that our military isn't needed right now, but I'm saying that military in general isn't needed. Sure, we won't want to get rid of our army when other countries still have armies, but someone needs to make the first step.
 
I think the main reason I agree is because of the huge amount of people who automatically think that being a soldier warrants a huge amount of respect. And not only that, but there also seems to be this public opinion that you should join the army, and if you don't, you're a coward.

And Synre, I'm one of those 15,000 who would not join the army or risk my life in the army. This is not because I don't have the rocks for it. It's just that I don't think we should have an army, and that I have doubts about the opinion that we need an army to defend our way of life. Why can we not be the bigger man and be the first to stop fighting?

And another reason I dislike people who hero worship soldiers is because their main reason for worshiping soldiers is that they're keeping terrorists out of our country. But are they not soldiers themselves, purely on a different side? And who's to say our judgment is absolute? If I recall correctly, was it not the American government itself that created the hatred of America in the Middle East? Did we not push Iran into a dictatorship after overthrowing Mossadegh in 1953? Did this not cause deep hatred for the Americans? And then that hatred spread to other neighbouring countries. So I dunno, maybe we should all worship soldiers and aspire to be in the army. But I'm still against it.

In case you didn't notice, the United States(and I can only speak for my own country's military) is not fighting soldiers, we are fighting extremist terrorists. There IS a difference. They are not fighting for the majority of the people, they are fighting for their own beliefs. And as much as that may sound "romantic", it becomes "problematic" when those beliefs include exterminating everyone who does not agree with the religiously.

As for why they hate America, it is because America tolerates religion; they don't give a rat's ass about what America may or may not have done well over 50 years ago. This is evident in the fact that THEY KILL EACH OTHER AND HATE EACH OTHER ALMOST AS MUCH AS THEY HATE US. Ever wonder who all the innocents Saddam Hussein was killing were? O ya, OTHER MUSLIMS who just happened to believe something different from what he believed, except that he controlled the weapons. Muslims do not hate us because of any injustices we may have done to them, they hate us because we preach freedom of religion.

Of course, it could be argued that maybe, just maybe the ACTUAL truth is that freedom of religion is bad. So what if it is? The majority believes it is a very essential good to peaceful life(and there is a mound of evidence to support this belief), and America is run by a democracy, again, not necessarily the most ideal form of government, but the form of government with the most data backing it up as an effective, logical system.

At some point, one has to stop being "open to other people's ideas" and open up their eyes: There ARE objective evils in this world, and they must not be allowed to destroy innocents. That is why soldiers are needed. Soldiers that risk their lives to defend you and me, and just about everyone else. Every soldier who does his duty accomplishes this, and so every soldier that does his duty is a hero.
 
Heroism is a matter of opinion. To my mind, there is no heroism or glory in signing up to blindly obey orders without questioning the morality or sense of them. I don't care what conclusion people come to, they just have to think.

Yes, to operate, a military requires its soldiers to be unthinking drones. I just can't respect anyone capable of operating on that level. As sentient beings we SHOULD question everything.

Therefore, I don't respect the worker drones. On the other hand, the decision makers get respect from me. The war in Iraq not only secured oil for the USA, but is culturally uplifting that country by force. I cannot fathom that people whine about this war.

In conclusion: the lower ranks are wage slaves or indoctrinated morons and the people who make the decisions are the closest thing to "heroes" of the two - but respect from US citizens is allocated the other way around. The mind boggles.
 
I agree that just joining the army does not make one a 'hero'. However, to join the military is to agree to put your country above your own life. Losa spoke about willingness to kill - but more importantly, soldiers are willing to die. Joining the military is certainly selfless and admirable. But the word 'hero' should be reserved for those who truly deserve it - those who risked or even lost their own lives to protect others, whether they be military or civilian.
 
About the "put your country above your own life" thing - really, when was the last time the US bullied someone its own size? There are no wars to defend US citizens, there are only wars to further US goals. Not that I disapprove - there's too much "one world" hippy crap and someone needs to be looking out for the practicalities. I only feel it's ridiculous to describe serving in the US military as "protecting your country" these days. "Serving its interests" is more appropriate.
 
Which is why I didn't say "protecting your country".

Nor, for that matter, did I ever mention the USA specifically.
 
Which is why I didn't say "protecting your country".

Nor, for that matter, did I ever mention the USA specifically.
I'm talking in general. The type of person who considers soldiers heroic is usually the jingoist "my country right or wrong" zealot who considers being in the military and protecting America one and the same.

As for the USA - not specifically named, but really, where else do people hero-worship their murderers?
 
Yeah they are they put their own life on the line to fight for there country. Sure there are corrupt soldiers but most aren't like that.
 
As for why they hate America, it is because America tolerates religion; they don't give a rat's ass about what America may or may not have done well over 50 years ago. This is evident in the fact that THEY KILL EACH OTHER AND HATE EACH OTHER ALMOST AS MUCH AS THEY HATE US. Ever wonder who all the innocents Saddam Hussein was killing were? O ya, OTHER MUSLIMS who just happened to believe something different from what he believed, except that he controlled the weapons. Muslims do not hate us because of any injustices we may have done to them, they hate us because we preach freedom of religion.

No, that's incorrect.

a) Whilst they may not remember the events of 50 years ago, they still feel the hatred that their parents had towards America, and their parent's parents, which stemmed from this coup.
b) Hussein attacked Iran purely because he believed them to be weak, which they were at the time. He wanted their oil. The same reason why America staged that coup. There was nothing religious in his motivation.

Yeah they are they put their own life on the line to fight for there country. Sure there are corrupt soldiers but most aren't like that.

Define "fight for their country".
 
Define "fight for their country".
When most people say that phrase, it carries connotations of defense. However, as Cantab pointed out, it can certainly mean "fighting for the benefit of your country". That includes the benefit of securing access to oil.
 
Well, in my opinion, it's not necessary. With every war won, there's a side that loses, a side that bears grudges. World War 1 ended, Germany went into a depression. Through this depression, (and forgive the reducio ad Hilterum) Hitler was able to convince people to follow him, because he gave someone to blame.

And another thing, I don't understand your point about how I'm criticising the army when I won't join it myself. Of course I wouldn't join a system I disagree with. That's like saying "I have a problem with people who complain about the Labour Party, but won't vote for them during the elections". I guess you point is relying on the view that the military is necessary, but in my opinion, it really isn't.

I'm not saying that our military isn't needed right now, but I'm saying that military in general isn't needed. Sure, we won't want to get rid of our army when other countries still have armies, but someone needs to make the first step.

And then after WWII and the Marshall Plan, the United States and Germany get along rather well. If the United States actually manages to help rebuild Afghanistan and Iraq, I doubt that they'll hate us that much, just look at Japan, or the relationship between India and the British Empire (back when it was an empire).

Actually, I think that the analogy shouldn't be, don't critique the Labor Party unless you vote labor, it would be don't critique the Labor Party if you don't vote. Or in an analogous situation, why aren't you in Iraq, trying to convince people to set down their weapons.

Can you give a historical example of when a country disbands its military without another country protecting it, and it being a good thing?

As for why they hate America, it is because America tolerates religion; they don't give a rat's ass about what America may or may not have done well over 50 years ago. This is evident in the fact that THEY KILL EACH OTHER AND HATE EACH OTHER ALMOST AS MUCH AS THEY HATE US. Ever wonder who all the innocents Saddam Hussein was killing were? O ya, OTHER MUSLIMS who just happened to believe something different from what he believed, except that he controlled the weapons. Muslims do not hate us because of any injustices we may have done to them, they hate us because we preach freedom of religion.

Although I agree that it doesn't justify terrorism, I'm pretty sure that if the United States and other countries hadn't been screwing with the Middle East ever since WWI, that there would be significantly less hatred towards us. You do realize that the United States has done a bunch of stuff over there. Including the supporting of Saddam. And Saddam wasn't a religious figure in the first place.
 
this reminds me of when the Westboro Baptist Church protested at a soldier's funeral that he wasn't a hero and that war is wrong.

these types of things are just ridiculous. here we are protesting AGAINST the people who fight for our right to protest. now don't get me wrong, I'm quite liberal and more or less anti-war, but anti war DOES NOT EQUATE TO ANTI-SOLDIERS.
we fight wars because other people wage them against us, to potentially harm our ideals or even our lives. in an ideal world this wouldn't occur, and is what I prefer. however, life isn't ideal, and so wars result.
now if you want to say "yeah, yeah, but wars don't have to exist!", then fine, OKAY. and if you want to protest those wars, go ahead. but protesting the SOLDIERS? seriously?
now you could argue that soldiers are corrupt and kill for fun just as well as I could argue that Asians are good at math and bad at driving, Russians are drunks, etc. rash generalizations based on second hand knowledge of already anecdotal evidence. maybe SOME people follow these stereotypes, but not all will. soldiers are the same; maybe SOME are corrupt and thrillseekers, but I feel the vast majority are more likely just protecting our ideals, etc.
 
No, that's incorrect.

a) Whilst they may not remember the events of 50 years ago, they still feel the hatred that their parents had towards America, and their parent's parents, which stemmed from this coup.
b) Hussein attack Iraq purely because he believed them to be weak, which they were at the time. He wanted their oil. The same reason why America staged that coup. There was nothing religious in his motivation.



Define "fight for their country".

I don't believe I have to explain this...
Saddam Hussein was a Sunni. He killed Shiite Muslims by the tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands. He killed Iraqis for religious reasons. He could have gotten the "oil" without killing all those people, quite easily in fact.

As for people there hating us because "their parents hate us", let's take that argument back a little while...back to BEFORE America got involved. They hated us BACK THEN TOO. Why? BECAUSE OF OUR TOLERANCE OF RELIGION. It is difficult for Americans to comprehend the extents to which Muslim extremists will go in the name of Muhammad(other religions have extremists as well, of course, but this particularly debate focuses on Islam, so I will confine my discussion to Islamic extremists).

Edit:
Although I agree that it doesn't justify terrorism, I'm pretty sure that if the United States and other countries hadn't been screwing with the Middle East ever since WWI, that there would be significantly less hatred towards us. You do realize that the United States has done a bunch of stuff over there. Including the supporting of Saddam. And Saddam wasn't a religious figure in the first place.

America did not support Saddam Hussein, we fought TWO wars to oust him from power. And of course "the United States has done a bunch of stuff over there", as you so eloquently put it. The fact is, though, that what we have done, and whether it is right or wrong, plays no part in the hatred which the extremists feel towards us. It may influence the dislike of some civilians, but the civilians are not the problem. And quite frankly, the majority of the civilians in Iraq LIKE the American involvement; we have turned their shithole of a country into a Democracy. Sure it needs work, but it is a whole lot better than it was. And none of this would be possible if it were not for the bravery of our soldiers abroad.

In short: Our soldiers are heroes, because even if they are not defending our lives as directly as they were in say, the War of 1812, they are helping civilians WORLDWIDE. If that isn't heroic sacrifice, to give oneself up for the betterment not only of one's own society but for the betterment of others, whom one has never even met, then please tell me what you define as "heroic".
 
I don't believe I have to explain this...
Saddam Hussein was a Sunni. He killed Shiite Muslims by the tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands. He killed Iraqis for religious reasons. He could have gotten the "oil" without killing all those people, quite easily in fact.

As for people there hating us because "their parents hate us", let's take that argument back a little while...back to BEFORE America got involved. They hated us BACK THEN TOO. Why? BECAUSE OF OUR TOLERANCE OF RELIGION. It is difficult for Americans to comprehend the extents to which Muslim extremists will go in the name of Muhammad(other religions have extremists as well, of course, but this particularly debate focuses on Islam, so I will confine my discussion to Islamic extremists).

You do realize that there were significant political reasons for him to kill the Shiites, like for example armed rebellion...

Look, the Israelis and Palestinians are fighting over claims from over 2000 years ago, not just their parents hating one another. Also, if we look back to the early 1800s, they requested that we have freedom of religion, Treaty of Tripoli.
 
I have had the honor of knowing a lot of different soldiers and I can tell you that just about every one of them deserves the praise they get. I wouldn't say that people just fawn over military service men. In fact a lot of people ignore what the members of the armed forces do for them each and every day.

Veterans especially deserve to be honored. They go through some hellish situations so that people like you and I can live in peace. If that isn't heroic I don't know what is. Is every person who puts on a soldier a hero? No. But putting on a uniform gets you dang close.
 
As for people there hating us because "their parents hate us", let's take that argument back a little while...back to BEFORE America got involved. They hated us BACK THEN TOO. Why? BECAUSE OF OUR TOLERANCE OF RELIGION. It is difficult for Americans to comprehend the extents to which Muslim extremists will go in the name of Muhammad(other religions have extremists as well, of course, but this particularly debate focuses on Islam, so I will confine my discussion to Islamic extremists).

Yeah, no. In fact, whilst they were allied with us, Iran, an Islamic country, actually idolised America and was trying to become it. "We always loved America. To us, America was the great country, the perfect country, the country that helped us while other countries were exploiting us." (All The Shah's Men, Stephen Kinzer).
 
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