Specially Defensive Celebi (QC: 0/3)

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Princess Bubblegum

Princess Bubblegum

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First off I should note I can't write well, at all. So it would be appreciated if I could get someone else to write this up when and if this is QC approved. Thank you.

[SET]

Name: Celebi (Specially Defensive)
Move 1: Giga Drain
Move 2: HP-fire / Psychic
Move 3: Recover
Move 4: Perish Song / Reflect
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Calm
Evs: 252 HP / 224 SDef / 32 Spd

Why This Deserves to be on Site
- A very effective set against Volt-turn teams, which is the metagame, it counters Rotom-W in particular
- it provides the defense glue for balanced and stall teams
- HP fire hits Breloom just as hard and roasts Scizor
-outside of countering Rotom-W, it also counters some annoying fighting types (Conkeldurr and Breloom) which is what psychic is for
-can also be a check for Terrakion locked into close combat
- Deals with other water types easy because of natural cure like Jellicent and Vaporeon
- giga drain is obviously to hit said water types and recover... recovers
- perish song is a great move on stall or defensive team to kill off Reunicles and other random last pokemon
- relect can be used to great effect to escape Tyranitar and Scizor pursuits, while at the same time supporting the team for a short time with a defensive wall

Additional Comments
- speed evs outspeed jolly Tyranitar
- after that they maximize special bulk
- u-turn can be used, but you will need to predict when Tyranitar comes in
- thunder wave can be used to cripple foes, but does little against volt turn, which is the purpose of this set
- stealth rock can also be used over baton pass if you need them
- earth power can be used against heatran

Teammates and Counters
-speaking of killing Scizor, this set needs stealth rock support or else you just switching around
-your going to need something that counters Scizor: Skamory, Gyrados, Gliscor, ect
-due to the amount of switching going on, rapid spin support is nice
-resistant to water attacks, it makes a great member or a sandstorm team, passive sand damage also makes taking out Rotom-W easier
-with little offense it is easy to counter, but not to pin down
-keeping stealth rocks up with constant volt turning will eventually kill the bugger
-choice scarf tyranitar does catch it
-tricking away a choice item on it makes stalling it out easier
 
Uh, I think you should slash Hidden Power Fire on Psychic, for starters.

Also, why not just use a Nasty Plot Celebi or something like that and just use 252 HP EVs? Even with just that, you're not really getting KO'd by Specs Rotom-w's HP Ice / Fire and you could just switch out / out speed it and KO with Leaf Storm or severely damage it with Giga Drain? I don't know, I'll have to look deeper into this.
 
The thing is 90% of the time Rotom is just going for the volt switch, if all Rotoms stayed in of course the nasty plot version would be superior. This Celebi takes those volt turns with ease on the hand. Also, and offensive Celebi is incapable of providing any other team synergy (aside from sweeping of course) while this Celebi can easy take on pokemon from even the physical end. Overall it is a much more defensive and safe version of Celebi. Although a more bulky nasty plot Celebi does sound like an interesting alternative.

HP fire is something I will slash though, simply because most people don't have the patience to stealth rock stall Scizor.
 
Unless those 28 Defense EVs serve a specific purpose, you should just allocate everything into special defense for consistency purposes with its Defensive analysis on site. Also, you should definitely slash HP Fire before Psychic, as Celebi does not want to be Scizor or Ferrothorn bait.

Make sure to mention Thunder Wave and Reflect in additional comments. T-wave is good for those fast sweepers that it does not want to be set up bait for, like Calm Mind Latios, while Reflect prevents bulky Tyranitar from hurting it.

Even though this set does not have as much purpose anymore with Thundurus gone, its still a very good counter to the ubiquitous Rotom-W, along with pretty much every other offensive water type out there (including Life Orb Starmie, which its regular defensive set cannot counter). It's a very good set and deserves an analysis in my view.

Despite my opinion, I think QC may have already struck this set down. Might want to check that out.
 
Celebi barely even takes 20% (which isn't a lot; or at least to me it isn't) from Volt Switch. And seeing how Rotom-w and taking boosted water attacks (and other random special attacks) is the only thing this set has to offer, would a detailed mention in the standard Defensive Celebi set suffice? They're both essentially the same thing and does the same thing, too (both counters Rotom-w, Non-Choice Band / X-Scissor Terrakion, etc.) and this set doesn't really offer anything spectacular.
 
Yo scarfwynaut, while I'm a big fan of spdef celebi on defensive teams, I'm not sold on this moveset. I feel like celebi needs to be doing something more for the team that a regular NP varient, or other bulky grass type can't provide which is why I'm going to suggest adding perish song.

Perish song spdef Celebi is a wonderful answer to both CM rachi and reuniclus, which should always be covered in some way on stall teams. Perish Song nets additional benifits allowing you to force things like Toxic stalling gliscor out, as well as screwing over problematic baton pass chains. If you do decide to make this change you may want to find a spot for u-turn which allows you to always get the better match-up on the switch. Just my two cents, I feel like this sort of needs a way to differentiate it self.
 
LighTz911 said:
Celebi barely even takes 20% (which isn't a lot; or at least to me it isn't) from Volt Switch. And seeing how Rotom-w and taking boosted water attacks (and other random special attacks) is the only thing this set has to offer, would a detailed mention in the standard Defensive Celebi set suffice? They're both essentially the same thing and does the same thing, too (both counters Rotom-w, Non-Choice Band / X-Scissor Terrakion, etc.) and this set doesn't really offer anything spectacular.
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Celebi should have two different defensive sets for the same reason that Zapdos currently does; it has such solid stats that it can counter a whole variety of different things if you adjust its EV spread accordingly. A Max HP / Max Def Celebi has trouble countering strong special attacking water-types like Specs Politoed and Life Orb Starmie, and a Max HP / Max SDef Celebi cannot counter strong physical attackers like Terrakion and Landorus efficiently. Both sets just have a different approach to defending and should be treated as such with two different analyses.
 
Super Mario Bro said:
Unless those 28 Defense EVs serve a specific purpose, you should just allocate everything into special defense for consistency purposes with its Defensive analysis on site. Also, you should definitely slash HP Fire before Psychic, as Celebi does not want to be Scizor or Ferrothorn bait.

Make sure to mention Thunder Wave and Reflect in additional comments. T-wave is good for those fast sweepers that it does not want to be set up bait for, like Calm Mind Latios, while Reflect prevents bulky Tyranitar from hurting it.

Even though this set does not have as much purpose anymore with Thundurus gone, its still a very good counter to the ubiquitous Rotom-W, along with pretty much every other offensive water type out there (including Life Orb Starmie, which its regular defensive set cannot counter). It's a very good set and deserves an analysis in my view.

Despite my opinion, I think QC may have already struck this set down. Might want to check that out.
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Thank you for your comments, and did them all. I am totally willing to make this set more "general" because it was taylor maid for my team. The 28 defense evs added exactly 1% more physical bulk, so it might not be worth argueing for it.

Nubagator said:
Perish song spdef Celebi is a wonderful answer to both CM rachi and reuniclus, which should always be covered in some way on stall teams. Perish Song nets additional benifits allowing you to force things like Toxic stalling gliscor out, as well as screwing over problematic baton pass chains. If you do decide to make this change you may want to find a spot for u-turn which allows you to always get the better match-up on the switch. Just my two cents, I feel like this sort of needs a way to differentiate it self.
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I am still not totally sold that perish song should be a main option on this set, ironically I always found baton pass to have more usefulness unless I needed perish song. Although it is more of an incentive to use the set, if more people request it I will put it on.
 
What does it have that is better against U-turn team than, let's say, Rotom-C ? I think SR GOT TO be mentioned since its one of the selling point of Celebi over other Grass-types in this role.
 
Mynism said:
What does it have that is better against U-turn team than, let's say, Rotom-C ? I think SR GOT TO be mentioned since its one of the selling point of Celebi over other Grass-types in this role.
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Celebi has many advantages over other grass types. It has the best combination of bulk and speed, with SR, Recover and Natural Cure. I think all of those are enough, even without SR to differentiate it from other Grass types...
 
alexwolf said:
Celebi has many advantages over other grass types. It has the best combination of bulk and speed, with SR, Recover and Natural Cure. I think all of those are enough, even without SR to differentiate it from other Grass types...
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4x to Bug and 2x to Dark just kill it, especially when his job is to counter Voltturn teams, where Tyranitar and U-turn users are always. So yeah, I think you need to emphase his advantages. (Also, I could go deeper and mention than a more offensive Celebi would be better in this "Volturn counter" role, with LO Leaf Storm and HP Fire to definitely fear Tyranitar and Scizor.)
 
Mynism said:
4x to Bug and 2x to Dark just kill it, especially when his job is to counter Voltturn teams, where Tyranitar and U-turn users are always. So yeah, I think you need to emphase his advantages. (Also, I could go deeper and mention than a more offensive Celebi would be better in this "Volturn counter" role, with LO Leaf Storm and HP Fire to definitely fear Tyranitar and Scizor.)
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Celebi has the best special bulk from all the grasses that are able to beat Volt-Turn teams reliably, with Natural Cure to heal of WoW from Rotom-W (which screws Virizion for example), Recover to be able to switch-in many times and higher speed from all the other grasses except Virizion (which isn't a good answer to Volt-Turn anyway), so it doesn't have to invest much in speed to outspeed offensive Scizor and standard Rotom-W. All these are enough advantages even without SR, imo, to make him very different than any other grass-type, when it comes to countering Volt-Turn teams.
 
Yea but again you ignore what I said.
Celebi has the best special bulk from all the grasses that are able to beat Volt-Turn teams reliably
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BUT a 4x weakness to U-turn. seems logic. Guess it's useless to argue more. But I stil think that without SR, it's just outclassed.
 
Mynism said:
Yea but again you ignore what I said. BUT a 4x weakness to U-turn. seems logic. Guess it's useless to argue more. But I stil think that without SR, it's just outclassed.
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Most grasses are not meant to come in on U-turn anyway. Their main use is coming in on Rotom's Volt Switch and then force Scizor out. And Celebi is the best for this job, out of all the other grasses even without SR. How is Virizion going to stop this strategy if it risks getting burned and demolished by Scizor? Ferrothorn is in the same boat, and Breloom cannot face Band Scizor without a couple of boosts.
 
you forget other potential switch in could be ttar or landorus, who destroy celebi. also, basing on what you say, an offensive Celebi would be better. this one won't force it out with 0 SAtk evs. And Viriz/Ferro/Loom doesnt fear the 2 I just listed and Rotom-C can play around Scizor/Lando/Ttar easily if well played.
 
Mynism said:
you forget other potential switch in could be ttar or landorus, who destroy celebi. also, basing on what you say, an offensive Celebi would be better. this one won't force it out with 0 SAtk evs. And Viriz/Ferro/Loom doesnt fear the 2 I just listed and Rotom-C can play around Scizor/Lando/Ttar easily if well played.
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First of all, everything i said, wasn't to justify this set's use. It was to justify why Celebi is the best Grass for handling Volt-Turn. Also Celebi doesn't have to be offensive to beat Scizor. All that it needs is 58 evs in S.Atk to be able to ohko after 2 SR switch-ins. And Celebi already outspeeds most Scizor anyway, so no need to run any Speed for Scizor. I am only talking only about Band Scizor, since SD Scizor doesn't carry U-turn, and so doesn't create anY Volt-Turn chain.

Finally yeah i forgot about Landorus... You are right in saying that when it comes into the mix, Celebi is in deep shit, and other grasses can manage the 3 pokes chain better. I was only thinking about Scizor and Rotom-W when mentioning Volt-Switch.
 
Mynism said:
What does it have that is better against U-turn team than, let's say, Rotom-C ? I think SR GOT TO be mentioned since its one of the selling point of Celebi over other Grass-types in this role.
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Ah stealth rocks, I will add that to AC. I am not making it the main option for most of the reasons Alexwolf already stated. Mainly that "Celebi doesn't have to single handily deal with volt turn teams, just Rotom." Why in the world would I ever keep this thing on Landorus or Scizor.

Speaking of Scizor, should special attack evs be listed in AC for scizor, now that HP fire is a main option? I am just tossing the idea around.
 
Stealth Rock should be slashed with it (before if I'm right, after if I'm wrong) for the reasons stated above. Tyranitar probably won't switch in to Celebi unless it's Scarfed, fearing a boosting set with Giga Drain, amd Scizor won'e exactly like HP Fire. Talk about how Baton Pass helps you hop out of Heatran (who otherwise destroys this set) and get a leg up on Scarf Rotom-W. Since it'll outspeed you and Volt Switch, Baton Pass allows you to immediately go to a counter to their switchin in you predict correctly, giving you momentum.
 
alexwolf said:
Most grasses are not meant to come in on U-turn anyway. Their main use is coming in on Rotom's Volt Switch and then force Scizor out. And Celebi is the best for this job, out of all the other grasses even without SR. How is Virizion going to stop this strategy if it risks getting burned and demolished by Scizor? Ferrothorn is in the same boat, and Breloom cannot face Band Scizor without a couple of boosts.
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How about we use Shaymin instead? D:

Then we don't even worry about Pursuit. So Shaymin with Seed Flare / HP Fire / Rest / (filler).

Also I'm skeptical putting a "defensive glue" set for very specialized situations on site. Can't people just make this kind of set, and fit it to their team, an not need our analysis to tell them about it? Just because a set works well on team X doesn't mean it needs a set on site-- especially if it's very specialized for use on team X.
 
Chou Toshio said:
How about we use Shaymin instead? D:

Then we don't even worry about Pursuit. So Shaymin with Seed Flare / HP Fire / Rest / (filler).

Also I'm skeptical putting a "defensive glue" set for very specialized situations on site. Can't people just make this kind of set, and fit it to their team, an not need our analysis to tell them about it? Just because a set works well on team X doesn't mean it needs a set on site-- especially if it's very specialized for use on team X.
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I agree this celebi set is too specalised to work in a generic sence on teams. I really can't see it holding much ground over most over celebi sets in general, including the offensive celebi set that become popular, which could argubly do the same job but can fit better in team. It can also forfill other roles as well this celebi can't as can the other celebi sets and the hedgehog too.
 
I honestly don't know what to say or feel about this set. Chou and malomyotismon make pretty good points, and I've already mentioned a specially defensive set onsite (though it's less specialized than yours) so:

I would like you to present logs of this thing working, and I will determine whether or not I would or could use the standard Defensive set in this Celebi's place.
 
I'd like to know if you're still working on this. If so, we'd like to see some logs; if not pm a c&c mod so that they can take care of it.
 
I hate to make excuses, but yeah, ive been lazy recently and the server has been shit. I can try to get some this weekend probably.

But from the little testing I have done, im switching baton pass to reflect / perish song, once I get on a better computer.

If anyone wants to take this over, feel free.
 
I mirror Super Mario Bro's view - the physically defensive set and the specially defensive set counters different threats much more effectively. Sure the physically defensive set can tank a Specs Hydro Pump from Politoed, but it risks a 2HKO. LO Starmie in the Rain also scores a 2HKO with Hydro Pump followed by an Ice Beam. The specially defensive Celebi in the other hand cannot survive a +2 LO Crunch from Lucario, +2 LO Stone Edge from Terrakion, +1 LO Crunch from Scrafty, LO U-turn from Mienshao, etc.

So yea, there should be separate physical and special wall sets for Celebi.

Scarfwynaut - First off I should note I can't write well, at all. So it would be appreciated if I could get someone else to write this up when and if this is QC approved. Thank you.
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If you're not writing this, then we need to lock this thread so a different person can write this set up. Are you going to write this analysis?
 
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