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SpecsMence or SpecsLatias

j0ht0_m4st3r

OK, well, i asked this in the simple Q&A thread, but no one responded, so.....

Which one is better to build a team around. SpecsMence or SpecsLatias

Here are my pros and cons for each

Salamence:

Pros-
1. Has much more surprise value, which can easily mean a pokemon w/ something as powerful as Draco Meteor
2. Isn't psychic so pursuit isn't a factor, it can't get trapped basically
3. Has intimidate which is always a plus,
4. Better movepool IMO

Cons-
1. Lower speed, the 100 range is very prominent, the speed is a big one, the 110 on latias is nice and it outspeeds alot more than mence
2. SR damage, this one's the main reason i'm doubting mence, if it weren't for this, i'd be using him for sure, but now i'm second guessing


Latias:

Pros-
1. Higher speed
2. Doesn't take SR damage

Cons-
1. Since it's psychic, pursuit can trap it, and kill it quickly, mainly tyranitar/scizor
2. Not nearly as much surprise factor, everyone knows for the most part it's gonna be a sp.atk coming from a Latias
3. Worse movepool,


They both have the same sp.atk stat, and i really am having trouble deciding which one to base my team off of. Any help would be greatly appreciated. The extra speed is nice on Latias, but the fact that one pokemon coming out could spell doom getting pseudo trapped w/ pursuit is really hard to get over.
 
you could have bumped your question, i.e., quoted yourself.
First off, latias has a better speciel movepool. (thunderbolt)
trick owns
and don't base a team around a choice user, base it off of a setup sweeper like lucario or infernape.
 
mmmm, ok, but i've had no problems basing teams of Choice users before, specially not something as powerful as these two beasts.
 
Ubers are awesome made the point of Trick on Latias. That is definitely a reason, if not the reason, to use SpecsLatias. Crippling a Blissey on the switch is game-breaking. And if you can predict the Ttar/Scizor switchin, Surf will 2HKO iirc.
 
If you're basing your team off of a Specs user, it's likely going to switch around a bit. That's what makes the SR crucial against Salamence. And honestly, the surprise of the first kill might be nice in the case of Salamence, but having the upperhand on all Base 100 speed pokemon is probably much more reliable.
 
Voting Latias too though I think Fire Blast is much better then thunderbolt. But still higher speed and trick wins. Run a lucario or something so that if they pursuit you you get to set up.
 
They are both excellent pokemon capable of hitting very hard. While more dedicated Special walls will switch into Lati than Salamence it still has a lot going for it, particularly trick and Thunderbolt, as well as a higher base speed.

SR weakness is very detrimental to any choice user. It is difficult to say which is better as obviously surprise kills for Mence are likely, though if an opponent as knowledge it is a SpecsMence or a SpecsLati the Latias will generally IMO prove more destructive.

TTar can still trap Mence at -1 Sp.Atk. If SR is up, Scizor and Weaville can also trap it so that point is in my opinion of less substance then it seems.
 
Latias has Trick to ruin Blissey, who loves to switch into it. Not only does this help Latias herself, but it also makes it a lot easier for other special-based pokemon on your team to get their sweep on.
 
darknite said:
Ubers are awesome made the point of Trick on Latias. That is definitely a reason, if not the reason, to use SpecsLatias. Crippling a Blissey on the switch is game-breaking. And if you can predict the Ttar/Scizor switchin, Surf will 2HKO iirc.
Click to expand...

I agree on that one. Been using her as a lead on my last team and what I always do is to use Surf instead of Draco Meteor or Trick, it has a nice payoff because Scizor usually comes to ruin Latias' fun. I believe it does around 55-65%, which translates to a 2KO.

My conclusion is that Latias is more effective because she can actually do something to Blissey and she can also beat her counters with some prediction.
 
j0ht0_m4st3r]Isn't psychic so pursuit isn't a factor said:
you could have bumped your question, i.e., quoted yourself.
First off, latias has a better speciel movepool. (thunderbolt)
Click to expand...

Well first off there's some discussion that can come out of this, so the topic isn't of waste.

Main thing that irks me is you say she has a better movepool because of...Thunderbolt. What makes Thunderbolt give Latias the edge? Draco Meteor will hit anything harder than Thunderbolt bar Gyarados, who is better handled by Salamence due to intimidate. Some Draco Meteor numbers:

Code: 
Draco Meteor:
Vs. 252/0 Gyarados: 84.77% - 100.00% (OHKO w/ SR)
Vs. 252/0 Suicune: 73.51% - 86.88% (2HKO)
Vs. 188/0 Vaporeon: 68.97% - 81.25% (2HKO I believe, maybe slight chance of survival w/ Leftovers, guaranteed w/ SR)
 
Thunderbolt:
Vs. 252/0 Gyarados: 154.31% - 181.73%
Vs. 252/0 Suicune: 66.83% - 78.71%
Vs. 188/0 Vaporeon: 62.50% - 73.66%

Thunderbolt on Latias is nothing special as it does everything Draco Meteor can do, while Salamence has Hydro Pump (stronger than Surf) and most importantly, Fire Blast. Offensive movepool is definetly in Salamence's favor.

Only one thing really sets Latias above Salamence to me: neutrality to Stealth Rock. Other than that it's really a standstill between which is 'better,' though I'd give it to Salamence. The speed is rather a moot point imo, if Latias runs Modest she loses any real advantage her speed provides. Trick doesn't really beat Blissey, it slows her down but she's still functional and Latias still isn't doing anything to her. I'm not denying that Trick has its uses but with Specs I'd much rather have a 4th slot and forego 'beating Blissey,' especially if both Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor are to be used (Scarf I'd use Trick with).

Most of my points were already mentioned but I wanted to emphasize them.

EDIT @ Haunter: Forgot about Empoleon, though you have to predict the switch or Petaya-boosted Ice Beam will OHKO Latias when she comes back. Also! Salamence Fire Blast will 2HKO:

Code: 
Fire Blast vs. 12/0 Empoleon: 60.90% - 71.79%

Since that's the case, it's matched once again; both have to hit it appropriately on the switch or effectively lose.
 
Veedrock said:
Main thing that irks me is you say she has a better movepool because of...Thunderbolt. What makes Thunderbolt give Latias the edge? Draco Meteor will hit anything harder than Thunderbolt bar Gyarados, who is better handled by Salamence due to intimidate. Some Draco Meteor numbers:
Click to expand...

Everythig you said is correct Veed, but the only real advantage of thunderbolt on Latias is the ability to hit hard Empoleon, which is among the few pokemons who can completely wall specs-Mence.

Onto the topic: I'd always use specs-Latias, no SR weak and higher Spe and SpD make her a little easier to switch in on things like Swampert and Infernape. Salamence is a lot better used as a physical sweeper or a mixed wall breaker, being able to hit hard from both the sides of the attacking spectrum. The only reason to use specs-Mence over specs-Latias, in my opinion, is the surprise factor which may actually mean some unexpected KOs.

Also, though this topic is not actually a waste, I believe that there are a lot of potential comparisons in the current metagame, for example: who's better SD Lucario or SD Scizor? and I don't know if we want a thread opened for every of them.

Have a nice day.

EDIT @ Veed: I wasn't obviously talking about the sub petaya Empoleon, but rather about the defensive one suggested in the analysis, which iirc, in the early DP stages was a great check for specs-Mence. A calm 252 HP / 92 SpD Empoleon "only" takes 42.74% - 50.27% from a specs-Mence fire blast, which is never a 2hko with leftovers.
 
Unfortunately, Empoleon is a rare sight. A defensive Empoleon is even rarer.

Thunderbolt has the advantage of hitting Empoleon, Gyarados, and other bulky Water-types without lowering your Special Attack like Draco Meteor would. Fire Blast has the advantage of hitting Steel-types very hard, while Latias has to resort to neutral attacks in Surf and Thunderbolt.

What I believe makes Latias superior is its Speed and stat spread. With 130 base Special Defense, it has loads of oppurtunities to switch in. Unlike Salamence it isn't weak to Stealth Rock making it even easier to switch in. Since Draco Meteor lowers your Special Attack this is of vital importance that you can switch in and out easily. Salamence just can't handle it. On top of this, Latias has Trick to cripple its counters.

As to the pros (cons are pretty much what the other Pokemon has that you don't):

Salamence Pros
- Intimidate
- Surprise factor
- Fire Blast

Latias Pros
- 10 more base Speed
- Not weak to Stealth Rock
- Trick
- Thunderbolt
- More bulk

Leave Salamence for wall breaking, leave Latias for bombing everything that survives.
 
I would say Latios. Like Metanite said, it's a lot sturdier on the special side. It's also immune to EQ, but with no SR weakness. Crippling Blissey with is extremely good, since she can't really do anything else except be set up bait for CM/NP pokemon, especially CM. Salamence really only has Fire Blast and Intimidate over Latios. Why no surprise factor? Because the most common moveset nowadays is MixMence. From what I hear, most of them just use DM first no matter what. Same with SpecsMence. When they see no LO recoil, it's done and their Blissey can wall you for eternity.
 
Ubers are awesome said:
you could have bumped your question, i.e., quoted yourself.
First off, latias has a better speciel movepool. (thunderbolt)
trick owns
and don't base a team around a choice user, base it off of a setup sweeper like lucario or infernape.
Click to expand...

Precisely. Choice users are accents to help wear down the foe, not the tools for a sweep, as you'll simply be walled. Now if, for example, you were building around an SD Infernape or something (first thing that came to my head), you could use a SpecsLatias to break down Suicune and stuff that could give it problems. Then when you get pursuited, simply send in Ape to set up on the Choice Pursuit, or more likely the switch. Poor example, I know, but don't build a team around a choice user.
 
Despite what most people are say, I would go with SpecsMence. However, I think that MixMence is better. Here are my reasons for SpecsMence:

- Don't discredit the surprise factor. This can mean an instant, easy kill.
- Intimidate is a very useful tool if used correctly.
- For Latias, why would you want to give away the item that lets you hit hard in order to counter Blissey? Isn't that what fighting types are for?
- I think that Mence has a better movepool.
- Latias has 5 weaknesses and 7 resistances compared to Salamence's 3 weaknesses and 6 resistances.
 
Personally, I'd pick SpecsLatias over SpecsMence any day. The biggest reason IMO to pick her over Salamence is the lack of a 4x weakness, especially when that 4x weakness is to one of the most common attacking types in the game.

In addition, as others have stated, Latias is neutral to Stealth Rock, while Salamence is weak to it. Being weak to Stealth Rock is an awful thing for any Choice user, but this holds particularly true for SpecsMence because it's going to be firing off Draco Meteor a lot, which basically forces the user to switch out after since it won't be doing much after. This means that it's going to be switching in a hell of a lot, but also taking a hell of a lot of damage as well, especially with possible Sandstorm weather as well.

-

However, on the other hand, there are a few reasons to use SpecsMence over SpecsLatias, though I personally wouldn't unless I was running them on the same team.

The biggest reason IMO would be U-turn. Latias is weak to U-turn, which means that it's often going to risk death or severe injury if it stays in, but if it switches, the opponent gets a successful scout and a free switch-in. Salamence, on the other hand, is resistant to U-turn and therefore it doesn't get in the same nasty "damned if you do, damned if you don't" dilemma that Latias gets in. This is important because U-turn is starting to become a very popular move, and it wasn't exactly unpopular to begin with.
 
Hmm. Looking to the top 10 most used Pokémon, Salamence is much more dangerous then Latias. Steelmetagame kinda rapes a dragon without a powerfull EQ/Fire Blast to hit them.
 
latias is probably better by a slight margin, don't say specsmence has a better movepool when latias can use surf and thunderbolt, which hit every steel pretty hard. if anything surf is a better move than hydropump being easier to "spam", and thunderbolt is a fine option to damage empoleon and skarmory. even without trick latias is better because of being able to switch in more times, and as veedrock pointed out salamence doesn't like being pursuited much more than latias does, meaning that if both are locked into dragon pulse or dm, the options are literally equal since salamence switching out means it's probably just as dead as latias would be
 
With a Choiced Pokemon, you need to predict more than usual. If you predict wrong, it results in you swtiching out, as well as the opponent getting a free turn. The problem with Specs Mence, is that Stealth Rocks being so Popular, you have 4 turns to switch with it in play, assuming that you come in unscathed each and every time. If Sandstorm is in play, you get to switch in 3 times, which really isn't that great. Salamence does have the surprise factor though, since not to many people switch in a pokemon ready to take a Specs Draco Meteor on the first time coming in, which can be useful.

Latias has a higher Speed stat, and they share a similar Sp. Attacking stat which is always nice in such a fast paced, hard hitting metagame. She also has access to trick, allowing you to mess with opposing counters/checks, and giving you more room to make errors, since you can always switch attacks after you've tricked the Specs. Latias also takes 12% from Stealth Rocks, opposed to 25% that Salamence takes, so you can switch in and out more times, allowing Latias to have a greater chance of doing more damage.
 
FerrariCUBU said:
Despite what most people are say, I would go with SpecsMence. However, I think that MixMence is better. Here are my reasons for SpecsMence:

- Don't discredit the surprise factor. This can mean an instant, easy kill.
Click to expand...
Yeah, true, but no one counts out SpecsMence when they see Salamence. Oftentimes, looking at the rest of the teams distribution to Special and Physical gives you hints when you see a Salamence.
 
There's not much more that I can add, but I personally think that SpecsMence is outclassed by MixMence. Latias can always Trick the Blissey, but it will still wall both of them.

I just think that wasting Salamence's 135 base attack is ridiculous, it is the only reason to use it over Latias. Like Jump said, SpecsMence spamming DM or DP is just as susceptible to Pursuit as SpecsLatias is and when you combine that with the facts that Mence is on a much shorter timer to begin with, and it is slower , it is pretty clear that Latias is the better Specs user. Specs Mence is great on paper but in practice it is seriously outclassed and overrated. Salamence has better things to be doing than using Choice Specs.
 
I agree with Veedrock about the speed issue being moot. Modest Latias will still lose to 100 base speed pokemon with a positive speed nature. The loss of power is quite noticeable.

Trick is not always that great.. remember you're losing a lot of power without specs.

Personally I wouldn't use neither, but if I had to choose it would probably be Salamence, just for the surprise factor.

@SoT: both Salamence and Latias have the same SAtk.
 
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