I'm confused, are we trying to keep Persian alive or not?
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SpeedShuffling: A Discussion of Swift Destruction (+1 example set!)
- Thread starter Yagami Light
- Start date
hey,this is a very cool strategy,i am not going to lie,but i never tried to use WW/roar or rest sleep talk in any of my pokes,so its kind funny that i might try to give a shot to both of then at once,but then again,i might fight just to try to see if it works,since i am retired from battles,but this is not the point,great idea to post this light.
By choosing selectable moves for Assist, you increase the chance of the opponent getting a chance to attack. It's a matter of choice: what's more dangerous, status or decreasing Assist's chance of phazing? As I said in my post, status isn't much of a problem.
As Incarnation says, PHazing the opponent is much more important than curing status in your team. Though Persian may be important to the team, it isn't the end of the world when he faints since he usually crippled the opposing team by that point for all the other pokemon to take care of.
As frustrating and annoying as it is, there's also Confuse Ray to help Speed-Shuffle. Crobat isn't as completely destroyed by Bullet Punch, though he has lower SD in the sand when compared to Aerodactyl. He does resist fighting x4, which works against the occasional Mach Punch.
Crobat
Rest
Sleep Talk
Confuse Ray
Whirlwind
Crobat
Rest
Sleep Talk
Confuse Ray
Whirlwind
Oh thanks Erodent. Now the whole tier's gonna be filled with Scarf 248 HP/8 Def/252 Spe Jolly Persian and Purugly Assist-Shuffler + 3 filler Roar/Whirlwind Users, plus a Stealth Rocker and/or Spiker. -_-
It'll be hilarious to see everyone start packing CB Scizor and LO Lucario. Haha. Be expecting a "SpeedShuffling Clause". Lmao. I kid, but it can happen. It gets easiest win, drives the opponent without priority move nuts, and it's very amusing.
Loved it. Hating it.
It'll be hilarious to see everyone start packing CB Scizor and LO Lucario. Haha. Be expecting a "SpeedShuffling Clause". Lmao. I kid, but it can happen. It gets easiest win, drives the opponent without priority move nuts, and it's very amusing.
Loved it. Hating it.
I don't think Confuse Ray will be helpfull, really. Whatever you confuse gets phazed out immediatly anyway.
Meh, it isn't that broken. It has a lot of flaws, like a massive sandstorm or hail weak, huge problems with priority moves and no good way of taking care of the last pokémon. You're also relying on SPAMming a 75% acc. move the whole math long.
And CB scizor is on practically every team already, lol.
Not entirely, but we of course need to limit the amount of selectable moves as much as possible. Perish Song would be a great way of getting rid of the final pokémon, but doesn't fit in very well. Reflect looks like a great addition to me as it makes priority moves only a 3HKO or 4HKO. Heal Bell doesn't seem necesarry to me beacuse status isn't that much of a problem.
How did you get Counter on Drapion?
If you're going to use that Assist strategy, why not try out Cacturne:
Cacturne @ Leftovers
Adamant
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Spikes
- Destiny Bond
- Focus Punch
- Counter
Out of all its moves, Spikes is the only one that can be selected by Assist. The rest of the moves can be used to finish off the last Pokemon. Destiny Bond works really well with Focus Punch - you force them to either attack and kill you, or take a Focus Punch to the face the next turn.
You can also run Switcheroo as a third attack on Persian since it can't be selected by Assist, and can be used to give the Choice Scarf to the last Pokemon to prevent them from setting up on your last poke killer.
Cacturne @ Leftovers
Adamant
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
- Spikes
- Destiny Bond
- Focus Punch
- Counter
Out of all its moves, Spikes is the only one that can be selected by Assist. The rest of the moves can be used to finish off the last Pokemon. Destiny Bond works really well with Focus Punch - you force them to either attack and kill you, or take a Focus Punch to the face the next turn.
You can also run Switcheroo as a third attack on Persian since it can't be selected by Assist, and can be used to give the Choice Scarf to the last Pokemon to prevent them from setting up on your last poke killer.
hhjj, don't you think you lack a lot of speed on that team for the assistshuffling strategy? My idea was to simply try to outspeed as many pokémon as possible with max speed and Choice Scarf. Also, your Purugly only has a 4/9 chance of choosing a phazing move through Assist (44,4%), and Smeargle 71,4%. Seeing as SMeargle doens't carry Focus Sash, I doubt he'll even survive one turn.
The team I have at the moment:
Skarmory @ Focus Sash
Timid max Speed/Hp
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Roar
-Whirlwind
My pokémon to set up Spikes and SR. I'm currently running Sash to at least set up SR, but I'm even thinking of using Scarf on this to outspeed Taunters, then sacrifice something to switch in for the second entry hazard setup.
Persian @ Choice Scarf
Timid max Speed/Hp
-Assist
-Switcheroo
-Roar
-Protect
The main Assist user. Switcheroo is a cool emergency move, Protect is filler.
Purugly @ Choice Scarf
Timid Max Speed/Hp
-Assist
-Roar
-Thief
-Protect
Second Assist user, and can actually handle some hits. Thief and Protect are filler.
Smeargle @ Choice Scarf
Timid Max Speed/Hp
-Assist
-Destiny Bond
-Whirlwind
-Roar
Third Assist user, and throws itself in front of the last pokémon to bring it down with Destiny Bond.
Drapion @ Leftovers
Timid Max Speed/Hp
-Roar
-Whirlwind
-Sleep Talk
- -----
Mainly there to increase phazing chance, and to absorb TSpikes. If I'm lucky and absorb a Sleep Talk, I can phaze 100% of the time for a few turns. I don't use TSpikes myself because I don't think they'll make much difference with all the switching out the opponent is forced to do.
I'm not sure about the last pokémon. Candidate 1 a sashed Granbull with Roar/Counter/Reflect/Focus Punch seeing as Reflect makes a lot of Priority Moves 3HKOs on Persian and Purugly, and it can finish off one pokémon with counter. The problem however is that Granbull isn't the bulkiest of pokémon, and Stealth Rock will probably stop Focus Sash from letting Granbull survive the countered move.
Candidate 2 is Grumpig with Mirror Coat/Counter/Roar/Focus Punch to KO priority users and possibly the last pokémon. The reason why I choose Grumpig over Swampert or Blastoise is because those pokémon both Resist Bullet Punch and won't OHKO Scizor with Counter.
This gives Persian and Purugly a 80% chance of selecting Roar/Whirlwind when using Grumpig or 72,7% with Granbull, and Smeargle a 77,7% chance with Grumpig or 70% with Granbull.
The team I have at the moment:
Skarmory @ Focus Sash
Timid max Speed/Hp
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Roar
-Whirlwind
My pokémon to set up Spikes and SR. I'm currently running Sash to at least set up SR, but I'm even thinking of using Scarf on this to outspeed Taunters, then sacrifice something to switch in for the second entry hazard setup.
Persian @ Choice Scarf
Timid max Speed/Hp
-Assist
-Switcheroo
-Roar
-Protect
The main Assist user. Switcheroo is a cool emergency move, Protect is filler.
Purugly @ Choice Scarf
Timid Max Speed/Hp
-Assist
-Roar
-Thief
-Protect
Second Assist user, and can actually handle some hits. Thief and Protect are filler.
Smeargle @ Choice Scarf
Timid Max Speed/Hp
-Assist
-Destiny Bond
-Whirlwind
-Roar
Third Assist user, and throws itself in front of the last pokémon to bring it down with Destiny Bond.
Drapion @ Leftovers
Timid Max Speed/Hp
-Roar
-Whirlwind
-Sleep Talk
- -----
Mainly there to increase phazing chance, and to absorb TSpikes. If I'm lucky and absorb a Sleep Talk, I can phaze 100% of the time for a few turns. I don't use TSpikes myself because I don't think they'll make much difference with all the switching out the opponent is forced to do.
I'm not sure about the last pokémon. Candidate 1 a sashed Granbull with Roar/Counter/Reflect/Focus Punch seeing as Reflect makes a lot of Priority Moves 3HKOs on Persian and Purugly, and it can finish off one pokémon with counter. The problem however is that Granbull isn't the bulkiest of pokémon, and Stealth Rock will probably stop Focus Sash from letting Granbull survive the countered move.
Candidate 2 is Grumpig with Mirror Coat/Counter/Roar/Focus Punch to KO priority users and possibly the last pokémon. The reason why I choose Grumpig over Swampert or Blastoise is because those pokémon both Resist Bullet Punch and won't OHKO Scizor with Counter.
This gives Persian and Purugly a 80% chance of selecting Roar/Whirlwind when using Grumpig or 72,7% with Granbull, and Smeargle a 77,7% chance with Grumpig or 70% with Granbull.
This strategy does have its downsides but with work and tweakage, it can work. Legacy, that Cacturne sounds like win, because what these kind of teams seem to lack is something that can actually do damage without having to rely on phazing entirely if the two assisters get knocked out. I the assisters go down it's game.
I've checked out only two assist vids on Youtube. (are those the only ones?) and it seems that one emploies some rapid spin blockers (i.e. Froslass and Gengar) and tack Night Shade on Gengar for some kind of damage after all the assist shuffling. That's the only other downside is that is they get Starmie or Forry out and RS your entry hazards it kind of defeats the Assist purpose.
I've checked out only two assist vids on Youtube. (are those the only ones?) and it seems that one emploies some rapid spin blockers (i.e. Froslass and Gengar) and tack Night Shade on Gengar for some kind of damage after all the assist shuffling. That's the only other downside is that is they get Starmie or Forry out and RS your entry hazards it kind of defeats the Assist purpose.
There's always a Chattering Chatot that can deal some reliable damage. Chatter is the only regular attack that can't be selected by Assist, which is nice.
Maybe something like:
Chatot @Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Tangled Feet
Timid/Modest
- Chatter
- Mirror Move
- Thief
- Sleep Talk
IIRC, none of these moves can be selected by Sleep Talk, and the moveset lets Chatot get off a regular attack at least, without screwing up Assist.
Copycat also isn't selected by Assist. If you can somehow get one of your scarfed Pokemon to Copycat a roar or whirlwind, then you can get a +0 roar or whirlwind off. Having never used Copycat myself, I'm not sure whether you can keep on using Copycat to roar, or if Copycat will just copy itself the second time it is used. If Copycat copies itself, then you could switch off between Copycat and Assist, giving you more PP than your normally would have.
Edit: The Scizor/Lucario problem could also be solved by having someone Trick a Flame Orb to them, as Trick also isn't selected by Copycat. Unfortunately, the only Pokemon who can learn Trick/Roar/Whirlwind is Smeargle, so you'd have to give up either Roar or Whirlwind on another Pokemon. Linoone is the only Pokemon who can learn both Roar and Trick, so that could be included. Something like this maybe:
Linoone @ Flame Orb
Impish Nature
80 HP/252 Defense/176 Speed
-Roar
-Trick/Switcheroo
-Sleep Talk
-Protect
The EVs allow it to outspeed Adamant Lucario and then maxes out Physical Defense. I'm not sure if there's any advantage to having Switcheroo over Trick (Assist doesn't pick either of them) and Sleep Talk/Protect are fillers.
Edit: The Scizor/Lucario problem could also be solved by having someone Trick a Flame Orb to them, as Trick also isn't selected by Copycat. Unfortunately, the only Pokemon who can learn Trick/Roar/Whirlwind is Smeargle, so you'd have to give up either Roar or Whirlwind on another Pokemon. Linoone is the only Pokemon who can learn both Roar and Trick, so that could be included. Something like this maybe:
Linoone @ Flame Orb
Impish Nature
80 HP/252 Defense/176 Speed
-Roar
-Trick/Switcheroo
-Sleep Talk
-Protect
The EVs allow it to outspeed Adamant Lucario and then maxes out Physical Defense. I'm not sure if there's any advantage to having Switcheroo over Trick (Assist doesn't pick either of them) and Sleep Talk/Protect are fillers.
@ Away: The Assist users should be scarfed, so unless the spinner is scarfed, it's unlikely they will be able to spin away the hazards.
Here's a set I thought of that could be used to take care of the last Pokemon while somewhat fitting into the theme, although it will be your doom if their last Pokemon is a set up pokemon.
Swampert @ Rindo Berry
Impish
252 HP / 252 Def
~ Roar
~ Protect
~ Counter
~ Mirror Coat
Roar to aid in Assist to increase chance of choosing it over other moves.
Protect to scout move for Counter and Mirror Coat to kill.
Rindo Berry (Grass resist berry) ensures that you live grass attacks so that you can Counter/Mirror Coat.
Here's a set I thought of that could be used to take care of the last Pokemon while somewhat fitting into the theme, although it will be your doom if their last Pokemon is a set up pokemon.
Swampert @ Rindo Berry
Impish
252 HP / 252 Def
~ Roar
~ Protect
~ Counter
~ Mirror Coat
Roar to aid in Assist to increase chance of choosing it over other moves.
Protect to scout move for Counter and Mirror Coat to kill.
Rindo Berry (Grass resist berry) ensures that you live grass attacks so that you can Counter/Mirror Coat.
It might be a good idea to list the weaknesses of the Assistshuffle strategy together with wasy to solve them:
-Hail/Sandstorm: because the Assistshuffling pokémon carries choice scarf, it'll only have a maximum of 16 turns to attack before it dies to the residual damage. On top of that, Tyranitar is quite common.
Solution: This is probably the biggest threat to Assistshuffling teams. Sadly, weather moves are selectable through Assist, and even if you would be able to clear the skies, the opponent can simply switch in Tyranitar again. The best thing you can do is pack 3 Assistshufflers and hope that 48 turns is enough.
-Priority Moves: Even when using max HP, Persian, Purugly and Smeargle stay very frial and get 2HKOd by for example CB Scizor's Bullet Punch.
Solution: Counter isn't selectable through Assist and a good way to get rid of priority users, as long as Counter actually OHKOs. Your opponent won't Bullet Punch your Swampert again after he sees it could be his only chance of survival against the strategy. Reflect, although selectable through Assist, turns a lot of Priority moves from 2HKOs to 3 or even 4HKOs.
-The final pokémon: It's impossible to shuffle the final pokémon to death because it can't be phazed.
Solution: Unselectables like Counter, Mirror Coat and especially Destiny Bond can quickly finish off the final opponent. Also, seeing as it probably already has taken a lot of damage, unselectables like Chatter and Focus Punch can probably finish them off without too much Attack investment. Perish song, although selectable, can net the win 100% of the time as long as you're able to stall out for 3 turns.
-Unphazable pokémon: Suction Cups and to a lesser extend Soundproof Pokémon cannot be phazed and therefore are immune to the strategy.
Solution: Again, unselectables can do the job here, but are harder to pull off because these pokémon will likely be at near-full HP. Luckily, these pokémon are quite rare. Soundproof pokémon can still be phazed with Whirlwind, so you'll just need some luck to defeat them.
-Lack of entry hazard: If the opponent prevents you from setting up entry hazard or Rapid Spins it away, you can phaze all you want, but won't get anything out of it.
Solution: Rapid Spinners are quite rare nowadays, and won't get the time to Rapid Spin anyways if you play well enough. However, setting up the first time is the biggest problem. A lot of leads are designed to prevent setting up SR, and a lot of moves that would ease setting up entry hazard like Taunt can't be choosen due to Assist being able to select them. You could make Skarmory scarfed and simply outrun these leads, but you'll have to sacrifice something for the second setup. Luckily, even if your Skarmory faints, Assist can still select Spikes and SR and if it doesn't it will still prevent the opponent from attacking. As long as your opponent doesn't carry priority moves or Sandstorm/Hail, you can simply stall out until you setup some entry hazard. You will probably lose an Assistshuffler this way, though. If you're really afraid of Rapid Spin, you could pack a Ghost to block it, but there aren't many Ghosts that can use moves that could be useful to the team otherwise.
Any more we could add?
-Hail/Sandstorm: because the Assistshuffling pokémon carries choice scarf, it'll only have a maximum of 16 turns to attack before it dies to the residual damage. On top of that, Tyranitar is quite common.
Solution: This is probably the biggest threat to Assistshuffling teams. Sadly, weather moves are selectable through Assist, and even if you would be able to clear the skies, the opponent can simply switch in Tyranitar again. The best thing you can do is pack 3 Assistshufflers and hope that 48 turns is enough.
-Priority Moves: Even when using max HP, Persian, Purugly and Smeargle stay very frial and get 2HKOd by for example CB Scizor's Bullet Punch.
Solution: Counter isn't selectable through Assist and a good way to get rid of priority users, as long as Counter actually OHKOs. Your opponent won't Bullet Punch your Swampert again after he sees it could be his only chance of survival against the strategy. Reflect, although selectable through Assist, turns a lot of Priority moves from 2HKOs to 3 or even 4HKOs.
-The final pokémon: It's impossible to shuffle the final pokémon to death because it can't be phazed.
Solution: Unselectables like Counter, Mirror Coat and especially Destiny Bond can quickly finish off the final opponent. Also, seeing as it probably already has taken a lot of damage, unselectables like Chatter and Focus Punch can probably finish them off without too much Attack investment. Perish song, although selectable, can net the win 100% of the time as long as you're able to stall out for 3 turns.
-Unphazable pokémon: Suction Cups and to a lesser extend Soundproof Pokémon cannot be phazed and therefore are immune to the strategy.
Solution: Again, unselectables can do the job here, but are harder to pull off because these pokémon will likely be at near-full HP. Luckily, these pokémon are quite rare. Soundproof pokémon can still be phazed with Whirlwind, so you'll just need some luck to defeat them.
-Lack of entry hazard: If the opponent prevents you from setting up entry hazard or Rapid Spins it away, you can phaze all you want, but won't get anything out of it.
Solution: Rapid Spinners are quite rare nowadays, and won't get the time to Rapid Spin anyways if you play well enough. However, setting up the first time is the biggest problem. A lot of leads are designed to prevent setting up SR, and a lot of moves that would ease setting up entry hazard like Taunt can't be choosen due to Assist being able to select them. You could make Skarmory scarfed and simply outrun these leads, but you'll have to sacrifice something for the second setup. Luckily, even if your Skarmory faints, Assist can still select Spikes and SR and if it doesn't it will still prevent the opponent from attacking. As long as your opponent doesn't carry priority moves or Sandstorm/Hail, you can simply stall out until you setup some entry hazard. You will probably lose an Assistshuffler this way, though. If you're really afraid of Rapid Spin, you could pack a Ghost to block it, but there aren't many Ghosts that can use moves that could be useful to the team otherwise.
Any more we could add?
Pokémon immune to Spikes that resist SR are indeed a huge problem. Even if you would be able to Trick off their Leftovers, it would take 32 turns to take out only one pokémon. To make things even worse, Flygon is mostly Scarfed and will KO Smeargle before he can Destiny Bond it, and Bronzong will probably use Hypnosis. They're also quite common.
Gravity could indeed be a solution, but as usual Gamefreak hates us and didn't give anything bar Smeargle the possibility to use both Gravity and Roar/Whirlwind. We're pretty much forced to use at least one pokémon without any phazing moves now.
- Levitating SR resisters: Pokémon like Flygon and Bronzong are immune to Spikes and Resist SR. Without any help, it would take 32 turns of phazing to KO them. If they carry Leftovers, that even makes them completely immune to the strategy.
Solution: Unselectables sadly don't really cut it against these threats. Flygon is most of the time Scarfed and will outspeed Destiny Bond Scarf Smeargle, and Bronzong will probably use Hypnosis. Gravity is a great solution to this, as with 3 layers of Spikes up, all pokémon switching in will receive 25% damage. There aren't any pokémon with Gravity that can learn Roar/Whirlwind, however.
Seeing as how much of an advantage Gravity would be to this strategy, it's pretty much a must if you ask me. Even though it can't be combined with phazing moves, it can be easily combined with some other very usefull moves like Counter, Destiny Bond and/or Reflect, and Dusknoir could serve as a spin blocker.
I was doing this before it was cool :(
I never thought of Sleep Talk though. Always did Assist Persian. It either worked amazingly or I was swept in a heartbeat. Spikes-immune Pokemon that resisted SR were the biggest problem. I would include a Gengar to clean up and pray Assist didn't pick one of its moves. This would work even better with Restalk. And I never thought of Gravity, that would be great.
I never thought of Sleep Talk though. Always did Assist Persian. It either worked amazingly or I was swept in a heartbeat. Spikes-immune Pokemon that resisted SR were the biggest problem. I would include a Gengar to clean up and pray Assist didn't pick one of its moves. This would work even better with Restalk. And I never thought of Gravity, that would be great.
Never knew that Heatran was vulnerable to Toxic Spikes.
From the looks of it, the only way to take care of Pokemon that are immune to Spikes and resist Stealth Rock is to either employ Gravity and Will-O-Wisp/Toxic or use a sweeper that can take care of those pokemon. Both methods have the problem of being moves selectable by Assist, but I would prefer to use the latter method. The reason for this is that Assist selecting a damaging attack doesn't hurt the momentum as much using Gravity/WOW/Toxic at the wrong time.
There are things that already exist in SpeedShuffling teams to do this. Counter is really effective in doing this since most priority moves are physical. The Screens can also be used to cushion the blows from those moves.
