SM OU Spike stack HO attempt

[Tzolkin]

Hello all, so this is one of my teams that i am attepting to make it work recently. This team is as the name suggests Spike Stack Hyper Offense which aims to lay multiple layers of spikes/toxic spikes and stealth rock and then opress opposing team so hard that they cannot afford to defog while hopfully forcing many switches. The problem is that i dont really know how to go on, dont see any flaws and cant find a good spike stack team anywhere so any feedback would be highly appreciated. My personal high with this team is around 1600. So here is the team (i also need help on how to post sprites).

Greninja @ Focus Sash
Ability: Protean
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Toxic Spikes
- Taunt
- Ice Beam

So this is the first suicide lead. It is the most standard Greninja lead set directly from Smogon and it works very well. It can lay spikes or if opponent doesnt have grounded poison types toxic spikes. Taunt is here to prevent using it as a setup fodder and to prevent defog. Ice beam is here to hit landos, dragons and ice is one of the best coverage types as well. Greninja is the best spike lead because it is the fastest of them all and has taunt.

Excadrill @ Focus Sash
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Rock Tomb

The best suicide lead in this game right now. I always use it for my suicide lead when i am building HO. It has Mold breaker, rapid spin (which means i can play some rock-weak mons) and it hits like a truck. Rock Tomb is useful vs faster leads to slow them down.

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 67 Atk / 188 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Ice]

One of the most important Mons in Spike stack HO. It is one of the two viable Defiant users (other being Bisharp, which is good on Sticky Web, not here). You need one because no matter how hard you'll try your opponent might still be able to Defog. If you want to actually use Defiant you need a mixed set. This particular set aims to hit as many things as possible super effective and to thunderbolt the rest. The only problem it has is that it is weaker than Nasty Plot sets, but it is extremly important.
Gyarados-Mega @ Gyaradosite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Earthquake

This is one of the best Pokemon to use in spike stack as well, because it naturally forces a lot of switches due to its bulk. This is a very standard set. Crunch for STAB, Earthquake for Pex and Tran, DD for setup and Sub for anti-stall since this team lacks a real wallbreaker. I also have a question if you are under sub your opponent cant defog entry hazards away, right?
Magearna @ Fairium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Fleur Cannon
- Focus Blast

Another bulky setup sweeper. It deals with a lot of mons Megyarados struggles with (water types, fairies and fighting types to certain extend) and also forces a lot of switches while Gyarados deals with Heatran, Ground types and Steel types. I chose Thunderbolt over Calm Mind because i felt like killing waters is more useful than occasional setup. It is also the z mover of the team as fairium z works very well with the Fleur Cannon as a brutal nuke.

Blacephalon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Fire Blast
- Trick

Now since the team doesnt have a form of speed control i needed a fast scarfer that is also able to spinblock and deal with grass types. This set is very straightforward and does what it needs to do. Trick is to further annoy stall, everything else is standard.


Thank you for any feedback :)

 

[FlockOfFlames]

I chose Thunderbolt over Calm Mind because i felt like killing waters is more useful than occasional setup

I have a very very similar team and Calm Mind isn't that situationnal of a setup, it mostly depends on the speed of the opposing team (CM against fatter slow teams and shift gear against fast frail teams).

+1 Twinkle Tackle is VERY strong (+1 252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 345-406 (85.3 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO), and when killing something off of that you're already at +2 which is huge to continue the cleanup in terms of power and to be able to fire a couple more of Fleur Cannon.

You'll kill waters with that, don't worry :) especially with spikes stacking

I also have a question if you are under sub your opponent cant defog entry hazards away, right?

Yes

 

[jcbc]

Hi Tzolkin, i have to say that i've been trying your team and it seems really funny to play and use.

Usually i begin my rates talking sbout the threats of the teams, where i found weak points and then i show the changes i made to the team, but since this time i've been playing and testing with the team, i will do both at the same time. Let's begin.

~~ My experience with the team ~~
​

So i created a new alt to try the team, and at the beggining (expect from one mad haxfest) i was getting wins pretty easily, but the more high i was on the ladder the harder seemed to me to get wins (even i still get them most of the time), so then i decided to start trying out changes on the team.

Personally, i've never been a fan of lead gren, since it loses all the potential than this mon have, and there are another options that do the job the same way or even better. So i decided to change

Greninja >

Smeargle, smeargle as greninja do, gives the team spikes support and sticky webs which is always amazing to have on HO, and this also allows blacephalon to not have to carry a choice scarf which helps him a lot In order to break, so yes, another change comes on

Blacephalon, from scarf > specs, same sets and moves, but with a choice specs which helps to hit a lot harder.

So after this changes i kept trying the team and i felt it wasn't solid enough, so i started thinking and trying several changes and then i made another change which is,

Thundurus >

Bisharp and

Magearna >

Manaphy, after this one change i was at the 1800~ but then i started being stucked again so i did the last change,

Gyarados (Mega) >

Pinsir (Mega), pinsir being totally different as M-gyarados, does a famtastic work on this team since it helps to break rlly well. After this last change, the team have pretty good succeed and i only edited minor things.

So here's the team i hope you enjoy it and have the succeed i had with it.

~~ The Team ~~​

​

*click the mons*

Hope you enjoy using it, and if you have any questions about the teams or anything lmk.

Personal recommendation since it's the mon that gives more trouble to this team, if you are facing zapdos, excadrill will be superimportant in order to win since the team is pretty weak to it, but if you manage to set your hazards without zapdos defogging them, you should be okey.​

 

[Tzolkin]

I think you were thinking the right way, however you turned spike stack HO into Sticky Web HO. Generally Sticky Web is really easy to make, because it uses a lot of must-have pokemon such as Pinsir, Bisharp and Blace to certain extend and Kommo o. So yes the team you made is a good team however it really isn't spike stack team. Thanks anyway

 

[jcbc]

The problem is that on your original team it seemed to easy for common defoggers to take away all your hazards once after you kill gren.

As for teams with hazard stack (spikes, tspikes, sr) is hard to succeed with on ho, since what you want with HO is to set up your hazards as fast as possible and then kill everything or make enough pressure on the opponent team in order for them to not spin/defog. And this is why you usually end up doing a more BO team when we're talking about hazard stack. Since you want some minimum longevity on the team for when in a long term they take hazards off.

The thing with this "cheesy" teams is that they want to get the one face of the coin they picked in order to win, and i felt like your team didn't have one full face.

I tried to keep it HO as much as i could but (maybe it's just me) it could have been easier to transform this into BO. I'd like to hear your opinions here. But you set up easier spikes and with webs you don't a scarf item whichcis pretty weird on HO builds, since what you define as mons that fit in this kind of builds are some kind of mons which with a bit of help from the hazards, sweep entire teams thanks to their amazing breaking power.

 

[Tzolkin]

Yeah I definitely think BO would be good, however I do not have much experience with building it, so help would be needed

 

[jcbc]

So in order to make this team BO hazard stack, let's do a reset, and start the team all over again (it will look similar).

~~ The teambuiliding process ~~
​

•

. Let's start adding greninja which thanks to protean and its own movepool, is one big threat for a lot of common bulky teams. It also helps the team giving Tspikes support, and that paired with Z Dig to lure Toxapex which is almost the only common grounded poison type on the tier and also one of the only checks to this set of greninja.

•

. Let's keep going with one of the more important types now a days, a steel type. Which will also be our sr setter. Excadrill does a good paper in order to keep hazards off vs common balance/BO teams that rely on ferro/clef/tran to set their hazards, a spdef set is being chosen here in
order to gain some longetivity making easier his job as the spinner of the team.

•

. Let's finish this triforce with the last layer spikes and who better than ferrothorn to help the team with this task? Ferrothorn gives the team a ash gren check which otherwise destroyed the team so far, and set up spikes for the team. It also helps checking psychic types that otherwise can go throught the team since excadrill can be not enough.

Okey so we already have the full pack of hazards but now let's look what are we weak to and let's try to patch this weakness.

Heatran rn can click a fire move and claim one almost every time. So rn we need a check for it.

•

. Mega Latias, is one of those mons that benefits a lot of hazard stack, thanks to the amazing bulk this mon have and with a CM+roost 2 atks set this mon can pretty much sweep games if it gets played correctly. It also gives you a ground inmunity which you didn't have till now and a heatran check.

Rn mons such as celesteela, Mscizor or ferrothorn can be a bit of an issue since their bulk is pretty high and you can't toxic them with toxic spikes.

•

. Magnezone helps trapping this mons in order to make M-Latias an easier way to win (since the latest will usually be our win condition on almost every mu) and it also traps kartana which is always something cool to have gone.

As the latest mon, we need some speed control and also something that doesn't make the team even more ground weak.

•

. Scarf rotom W isn't the most common set but i feel that it can be good in this meta that is building rn after the zygarde ban, i also think that it fits here pretty well, being rotom naturally pretty fast makes him one of the faster scarfer on the tier, 3 atks + trick helps pivoting sround the enemy team and you can trick the scarf to ferro/heatran/tapu fini... making them lose their leftovers (on heatran's case scout always if they are Z) which will help to break teams easier, and you will also choice lock them which is usually not good for this kind of mons.

~~ The team ~~


*click the mons*
​

I hope this team helps you and most importantly, i hope that you enjoy it, i made this like a self rmt for you to be able in the future to build this kind of teams, hope you like it.