Gen 2 Spikeless Acid Armour Vaporeon + Donphan

[Celebiii]

Spikeless Acid Armour Vaporeon + Donphan


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Hey all, I'm back posting another team for RMT with a niche Ground-type! This time it's Donphan, who originally came to fit on a previous iteration of the team due to being a very solid Tyranitar check that could also spin and not instantly drop to Hidden Power Water from the Electrics. The team eventually took on a Spikeless direction as I tried to fit Cloyster or Forretress and couldn't find a configuration I was happy with. Acid Armour Vaporeon ended up filling an unusual role as a switch-in to Snorlax's Earthquake aftter pivoting around it with Gengar. The team also features a RestTalk Snorlax with Double-Edge + Flamethrower as coverage to pressure Forretress and Skarmory while maintaining a hit on Gengar. Let's get into the team members!

The Team


Exeggutor came to fit on the team as a switch-in to Electrics that could immediately threaten them while also taking some of the pressure off Vaporeon and Snorlax to switch into Ground-types. Eggy also helps the team pivot around Snorlax to figure out its set and decide how best to handle it. For example, after pivoting into Double-Edge with Gengar, Eggy can be brought in on an Earthquake, then proceed to sleep the Snorlax. If it reveals Sleep Talk, you have the option to Explode on it, or use Vaporeon to check Snorlax with Acid Armour later on. If Snorlax cannot Sleep Talk, Donphan can be used to phaze Snorlax, or you can just pressure it with Eggy's Psychic until it is forced out. Eggy shouldn't be used to switch into the Electrics immediately if it can be helped since a Thunder paralysis can be really bad for it, but it helps to absorb Thunders when Snorlax and Donphan don't want to risk switching into Electrics. Sleep should also be used wisely since Zapdos being slept doesn't aid this team much - try to land it on Snorlax, a Spinner, or a Spiker for maximum effect. Finally, Eggy provides the team with a secondary check to several important mons, like Machamp, Marowak, and Golem.


Vaporeon takes a role here as a combination Snorlax check + win condition. Due to the lack of Sleep Talk, Vaporeon can't be used to check some of the Pokemon it normally would be able to handle, namely Jynx, but Jynx is handled on this team by Snorlax. In return, Vaporeon provides a stallbreaking threat that the team needs due to the lack of Spikes. A healthy Vaporeon also provides a great check to Marowak and other Ground-types.


This Snorlax set was chosen for the ability to pressure the SkarmKou core on stall teams as well as being able to lure and heavily damage Forretress. RestTalk is required for Snorlax since it acts as the primary Electric check for the team, and is also necessary for helping with Pokemon like Jynx and Nidoking. Flamethrower's high PP also means that this Snorlax is able to fish for burns in longer games vs. Pokemon like Gengar, Misdreavus, Golem, and Starmie that don't mind unboosted Double-Edges.


RestTalk Zapdos is here doing all the things you need it to do: check Machamp, Eggy, Nidoking, Heracross, etc.; provide a Sleep abdorber for Nidoking's Lovely Kiss and Eggy's Sleep Powder; absorb status from Starmie and Cloyster; pressure Golem and Steelix, and more. Not too much needs to be said here.


Gengar is here to blank Monolax, to help pivot around Lax sets with coverage, and to help stallbreak. Gengar's Toxic + Rapid Spin immunities are always important for switching into Forretress and Skarmory, and the ability to Explode to remove a Raikou can be important, especially vs. Roar Raikou sets. The same goes for Blissey, although Gengar is happy to throw Dynamic Punches at that as well. Gengar's Speed and coverage also help the team keep up pressure against slower offensive mons. Finally, Gengar has some defensive utility in helping to check Machamp and Heracross.


The star of this team, Donphan is a Pokemon you don't see much of in GSC OU due to facing a lot of competition from other Spinners and Ground-types. Here, however, Donphan plays to its strengths by being an excellent switch-in to Tyranitar, something none of the other Spinners can claim. Donphan's powerful STAB Earthquake also threatens heavy damage on anything that isn't Ground-immune or resistant. Toxic on this set helps to pressure Cloyster and Starmie in longer games, and can ruin Whirlwind Zapdos sets that try to take advantage of Donphan's lack of coverage. Roar fills out the final slot and is mostly there to check Baton Pass teams, making sure that Jolteon and Smeargle cannot pass boosts to offensive teammates. Donphan's great physical bulk means that it can be used to phaze a boosted Snorlax if need be as well.

Overall Thoughts

Going Spikeless means that this team stands out and is different from most GSC teams. Playing without Spikes means that the team has to be more careful in preserving checks against Pokemon like Roar Raikou since it cannot be worn down as easily as you would be able to with Spikes. Using Acid Armour Vaporeon as one of the primary CurseLax checks can also be awakward, and good predictions from the opposing player with Snorlax can definitely make this team's life tough. I have tried measures such as Destiny Bond on Gengar to help with this, but I found this version of the team to be most effective in the end. In testing this team, it has taken some getting used to, but I think it's a relatively solid one. I am curious to hear feedback on it, though, and what thoughts are on whether using a Spikeless team like this has merit in serious games. Thank you for reading and I'm looking forward to your comments!

 

[Siatam]

I think there is room to explore Spikesless offense teams in GSC, but having Spikes is the default state. Any Spikesless team needs to have a good reason to not run Spikes. Unfortunately, this team hasn't convinced me it has a good reason not to run Spikes. I think dropping Gengar + Donphan for Golem/Steelix + Cloyster/Forretress is a direct upgrade for this team. These options give you a real normal resist and the Spiker for easy entry against Earthquake Lax instead of the outplays you need to make with your current team. But here's some more analysis to stay with the Spikesless theme.

In my opinion Spikesless offense teams should follow these guidelines:
1. Don't try to play the long game.
Spikes generates incredible value over the course of extended games. The longer you play without Spikes the better it is for you opponent and the worse it is for you. Your team has a strange pace mismatch where it can play quickly with Explosions to set up Vaporeon, but also has the very defensive RestTalk Snorlax and Rapid Spin Donphan for better longevity?

2. Have a way to beat stall without Spikes.
You have Vaporeon and ways the bait electric types. This checks the stall breaking box. In my experience Spikesless teams mandate some kind of special booster. With most stall teams packing Skarmory + a secondary physical wall it is very difficult to break through solely on the physical side without the help of Spikes. (And even with Spikes tbh)

3. Punish the opponent for setting up Spikes or prevent it outright.
If you opponent has Spikes they want to set them up. The best thing you can do is use this turn they set up Spikes to gain an advantage or set up a strong position. Second to that, the best thing you can do is pressure them so they don't have a chance to set up Spikes and make them play your Spikesless game. Your 2 attack RestTalk Snorlax is a huge liability on the front and I think it's the biggest issue with your team. I'm partial to Lovely Kiss Lax on Spikesless teams like I used last SPL, but really any sort of boosting Snorlax is far more valuable than RestTalk Lax on Spikesless. Donphan is also a liability against Spikers, but it should rarely come in before Spikes are down, and if it does it should be brought in to only click Roar.

With these points in mind, here is what I suggest:
https://pokepast.es/6a1204f52090bcdd


- Stun Spore > Sleep Powder
The tragedy of Sleep Powder Eggy is that it often explodes on what it hits with Sleep Powder. Exeggutor needs do to more than trade 1 for 1 on Spikesless. Stun Spore from the lead is a good tool for that. Bluffing Sleep Powder can give you good intel on if the opponent's Snorlax has Sleep Talk. Paralysis also has some synergy with the changes to Snorlax's set.

- Hypnosis > Dynamic Punch
With Eggy dropping Sleep Powder, it frees up Gengar to run a sleep move. In general I think Hypnosis is more valuable than Dynamic Punch on Gengar. Especially when the big win con on the team (Vaporeon) doesn't particularly care if Ttar or Snorlax are damaged. Sleep in general is also such a powerful tool to complicate game states and force your opponent into situations where there is no perfect play.

- Earthquake > Flamethrower
- Belly Drum > Rest
- Protect > Sleep Talk
While Lovely Kiss Snorlax could easily fit here, this is a different approach to bullying Cloyster/Forretress for setting up Spikes. Snorlax isn't intended to Belly Drum late game with this set. Lax wants to Drum early, maybe catch a panic Explosion with Protect, and then punch your opponent in the nose. Protect also has good synergy when supported by Rapid Spin. You can't underestimate the passive healing Snorlax will get if you are able to permanently remove Spikes from your side of the field.
Return is a option over Double-Edge, but DE hits some important damage thresholds vs Cloyster and the recoil damage you take is somewhat mitigate by Protect.
One downside to this Lax set is that you lose your safe switch in to Lovely Kiss Jynx. However, I think this is a necessary evil for Spikesless teams. RestTalk Lax is simply unsuitable for this team style. You can consider Miracle Berry on Eggy to for lead Jynx, but in most cases you'll need to let Vap/Lax eat Lovely Kiss or outplay and absorb sleep with Zapdos or Donphan. (Donphan is the least valuable piece on this team imo if Zap can't catch the Kiss)

Donphan is cool, I love Donphan. I left Donphan on the team, but you seriously consider Golem in its place. The extra weaknesses from the rock typing are a small price to pay for access to Explosion.

Cheers