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Tournaments SPL XV DPP Discussion
- Thread starter John Madden
- Start date
Love the team, well played.
What was the 4th move on Forretress?
If I had been you there, I would have slotted Heal Bell on Vaporeon since you have two rest users. He saw the HP:Elec coming from Vaporeon which is surprising to me since most people I fight on ladder with Vaporeon will just leave Gyara in and EQ it. I don't run HP:Elec though, either Ice Beam or mono attack.
I really like Vaporeon. Latias, Heartran and Suicune seem nearly ubiquitous in SPL and common on ladder. All of those struggle to hit Vaporeon. Suicune with CM and HP:Elec could threaten it, I like roar to just phase it and try to wear it down with hazards.
Could you elaborate on why you hate your week 5 team so much? Just experience from running it? I think leading with rest-talk Rotom is a bit strange but otherwise it looks like a somewhat standard team.
Agree Clef is cheesy. I think Iron Head Jirachi needs to go because its just such a luck based move and Ive seen people flinch down mons like Skarmory that they have no business beating with it. Clef and the stall teams it enables are pretty oppressive though.
Forretress was spin tspikes spikes and payback. Payback is pretty essential on Forretress.
My week 5 team has fine synergies and beats tons of “meta” builds which is why i was convinced it was good enough — like Scarf Metagross beats Big 5 offense pretty bad and CM Clef beats lots of stall. However, Malekith is not someone who brings “meta” teams. It’s like I studied for a history test and it was a math test.
Anyways, I’m probably a bit critical — if the team was truly garbage I wouldn’t have brought it. As a 6 it’s solid but I had sets like CB Gyarados and Specs Latias to provide instance offense — but like reflect lati and twave gyarados are probably better choices.
Rotom is a good lead though and I’d recommend trying him out.
as i've been asked here is my team dump for the tournament
Vs pideous https://pokepast.es/2b5836d4ba494333
one of the teams i've built this season therefore one of the worst^^, i was doing well with it on ladder, but i quickly realised that stall and paraspam which are not his best mach-ups are way more of a thing in SPL, but looking at pideous scooting i thought it was okay, i usually played it with mag over dnite, but after losing straigt to stall with shed shell skarm so many times i said enough and i tried with dnite mix which was ok vs stall, in retrospect not the best choice^^ but i was still used to think alone and aicorder + august weren't there yet, but still lum berry heatproof zong is THE set
vs mind gaming https://pokepast.es/8d9284d6dc8cc674 a nice stall from the server, i was farming the ladder with it and thought i would get an easy win with it vs someone not experienced in DPP (aka mind gaming), but farming the ladder and SPL is way different and i lost easily to mind gaming, after that loss aicorder and august started to help me
vs skyrio https://pokepast.es/7da5405aa51ce81e after that loss the team wanted me to play offense but i visualised spl as being unexpected and i thought bringing stall again after losing with would be unexpected, plus i wanted to prove to the pool i could play stall, i wanted them to consider this in the Teambuilder. The team was from aicorder if i remember well, in the end i just added heal bell.
i won't post the next team vs malekith as it is aicorder's special and i didn't made any changes, i was suspicious of scarf swampert at first, but fell in love with it though tests, rain dance jira with specs kingdra was great too
The next one from august for mishimono https://pokepast.es/88080bcc86ef3502 seeing the scout we thought paraspam was an easy win, in the end celebi and starmie was a hard mu, couldn't do much
next week vs twash i had little time this week to prep hence me deciding to put my favorite team out of the bench the famoso scarf skarmory https://pokepast.es/ad09f45e8e450314 as i didn't need much prep for it since it's probably the team i played the most. All of this to falter completely turn one, very embarassing display for me and i apologize to my teammates, after this loss troller tolt me to do lead mu and discuss with others and seeing how stressfull iwas in those matches it was a great idea, and we didn't stop after.
vs le don 1 https://pokepast.es/29be74775637d63f don't remember where i got this team (was kinda scared it was from le don at first^^), i wanted to have a decent mu vs stall and offense and i thought the team was good with it, in the end i played knock off gliscor, and i realised after that it worked horribly with trick rotom^^call me dumb but i still had little time at that moment. in the end i got saved by a superpower on a clef predict.
we expected paraspam from void https://pokepast.es/dc4c4e9f1f87cb73 specs heatran was supposed to be the breaker as specs heatran is a weapon i like to use i wanted to play this https://pokepast.es/53deeb5ece9e3426 but aicorder suggested that the spikes weren't needed and we went with his version, in retrospect the lead probably wasn't great vs him but i din't want to bet 100% for a paraspam. in the end magneton really surprised me in his team and i lost my main game plan then i thought ttar could survive eq from gliscor, it was a cool team void brought and i falter to it.
vs malekith 2 i wanted to surprise my opponent as i didn't brought hyperoffense at all this tournament and had no gyara brought at all, https://pokepast.es/1bfdce7be7d7b483 i built this team in mind that malekith could very well brought paraspam to me since i faltered to it last week, the pair of dnite mix and hwish jira was great vs it, heatran lured water vs offense to finish with our gyara ttar, latias here for the bad breloom mu.
the 2nd team i made only to go versus a f*king hacker, if u read this f*** you, i know the situation was much better for me than malekith, but that was 2 weeks of prep all for nothing^^^^
vs don 2 https://pokepast.es/53cd576c4c67739c i thought gyara was a good bring since it wasn't revaled last week and i still showed very little gyara, i thought scizor swords dance occa (for mag) was very good into le don hence august showing me this team which i kept over what i built, made some twerk as i wanted wacan berry, and hated no lum meta here. I have to say i looked at le don you tube channel (go look at it if u speak french it's pretty cool), and i looked at his plays a lot (several hours of footage) and i figured among other stuff, that early game he used to not sack his mons, turn 5 of the final, i wasn't expecting flygon of all things to come, but from what i saw i thought he'd keep skarm since he was at 100% and still very valuable, and my lead breloom screaming mix dnite. worked well in the end
as rey would say being a bastard works (he made it my modo, didn't pay attention to my picture profile before everyone on my team supported me with it^^)
Vs pideous https://pokepast.es/2b5836d4ba494333
one of the teams i've built this season therefore one of the worst^^, i was doing well with it on ladder, but i quickly realised that stall and paraspam which are not his best mach-ups are way more of a thing in SPL, but looking at pideous scooting i thought it was okay, i usually played it with mag over dnite, but after losing straigt to stall with shed shell skarm so many times i said enough and i tried with dnite mix which was ok vs stall, in retrospect not the best choice^^ but i was still used to think alone and aicorder + august weren't there yet, but still lum berry heatproof zong is THE set
vs mind gaming https://pokepast.es/8d9284d6dc8cc674 a nice stall from the server, i was farming the ladder with it and thought i would get an easy win with it vs someone not experienced in DPP (aka mind gaming), but farming the ladder and SPL is way different and i lost easily to mind gaming, after that loss aicorder and august started to help me
vs skyrio https://pokepast.es/7da5405aa51ce81e after that loss the team wanted me to play offense but i visualised spl as being unexpected and i thought bringing stall again after losing with would be unexpected, plus i wanted to prove to the pool i could play stall, i wanted them to consider this in the Teambuilder. The team was from aicorder if i remember well, in the end i just added heal bell.
i won't post the next team vs malekith as it is aicorder's special and i didn't made any changes, i was suspicious of scarf swampert at first, but fell in love with it though tests, rain dance jira with specs kingdra was great too
The next one from august for mishimono https://pokepast.es/88080bcc86ef3502 seeing the scout we thought paraspam was an easy win, in the end celebi and starmie was a hard mu, couldn't do much
next week vs twash i had little time this week to prep hence me deciding to put my favorite team out of the bench the famoso scarf skarmory https://pokepast.es/ad09f45e8e450314 as i didn't need much prep for it since it's probably the team i played the most. All of this to falter completely turn one, very embarassing display for me and i apologize to my teammates, after this loss troller tolt me to do lead mu and discuss with others and seeing how stressfull iwas in those matches it was a great idea, and we didn't stop after.
vs le don 1 https://pokepast.es/29be74775637d63f don't remember where i got this team (was kinda scared it was from le don at first^^), i wanted to have a decent mu vs stall and offense and i thought the team was good with it, in the end i played knock off gliscor, and i realised after that it worked horribly with trick rotom^^call me dumb but i still had little time at that moment. in the end i got saved by a superpower on a clef predict.
we expected paraspam from void https://pokepast.es/dc4c4e9f1f87cb73 specs heatran was supposed to be the breaker as specs heatran is a weapon i like to use i wanted to play this https://pokepast.es/53deeb5ece9e3426 but aicorder suggested that the spikes weren't needed and we went with his version, in retrospect the lead probably wasn't great vs him but i din't want to bet 100% for a paraspam. in the end magneton really surprised me in his team and i lost my main game plan then i thought ttar could survive eq from gliscor, it was a cool team void brought and i falter to it.
vs malekith 2 i wanted to surprise my opponent as i didn't brought hyperoffense at all this tournament and had no gyara brought at all, https://pokepast.es/1bfdce7be7d7b483 i built this team in mind that malekith could very well brought paraspam to me since i faltered to it last week, the pair of dnite mix and hwish jira was great vs it, heatran lured water vs offense to finish with our gyara ttar, latias here for the bad breloom mu.
the 2nd team i made only to go versus a f*king hacker, if u read this f*** you, i know the situation was much better for me than malekith, but that was 2 weeks of prep all for nothing^^^^
vs don 2 https://pokepast.es/53cd576c4c67739c i thought gyara was a good bring since it wasn't revaled last week and i still showed very little gyara, i thought scizor swords dance occa (for mag) was very good into le don hence august showing me this team which i kept over what i built, made some twerk as i wanted wacan berry, and hated no lum meta here. I have to say i looked at le don you tube channel (go look at it if u speak french it's pretty cool), and i looked at his plays a lot (several hours of footage) and i figured among other stuff, that early game he used to not sack his mons, turn 5 of the final, i wasn't expecting flygon of all things to come, but from what i saw i thought he'd keep skarm since he was at 100% and still very valuable, and my lead breloom screaming mix dnite. worked well in the end
as rey would say being a bastard works (he made it my modo, didn't pay attention to my picture profile before everyone on my team supported me with it^^)
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I wanted to follow up in BW’s steed and make this post. In the past, people have argued that Jirachi is a “necessary evil” in DPP — including myself. It definitely isn’t.
Following SPL, my opinion has changed. Jirachi is without a doubt, unhealthy and uncompetitive. Particularly, Iron Head.
Now, don’t get me wrong with proper measures like defensive Rotom or lefties heatran — you can safely check most Jirachi.
Since the option to ban Iron Head does not seem to be a possibility — I’d be interested in a real discussion about what people think about Jirachi. I’ll also add that I don’t think looking at win rates of pokemon in SPL or Classic is necessarily relevant to this argument as this argument is purely in that, Jirachi is an uncompetitive pokemon and since it doubles as a steel-type, it can just be slapped on every single team. Losing to flinch roulette is not competitive and we really should remove this if we can.
Following SPL, my opinion has changed. Jirachi is without a doubt, unhealthy and uncompetitive. Particularly, Iron Head.
Now, don’t get me wrong with proper measures like defensive Rotom or lefties heatran — you can safely check most Jirachi.
Since the option to ban Iron Head does not seem to be a possibility — I’d be interested in a real discussion about what people think about Jirachi. I’ll also add that I don’t think looking at win rates of pokemon in SPL or Classic is necessarily relevant to this argument as this argument is purely in that, Jirachi is an uncompetitive pokemon and since it doubles as a steel-type, it can just be slapped on every single team. Losing to flinch roulette is not competitive and we really should remove this if we can.
i would still be strongly against any action on jirachi. i don't think it can just be slapped on every single team. jirachi lacks inherent offensive power that many other pokemon have, so it's not suitable for heavily offensive teams. it's undeniable that jirachi is not the most centralizing pokemon in this tier at the moment, it's latias, by usage and by team structure.
i just don't think jirachi is broken. it's 100% understandable to find iron head frustrating to play against and degenerate. i think there's enough counterplay and that it doesn't put a major strain on teambuilding, so i don't have any issues with it. i think dpp is in a great spot and i would not support making any changes. especially one that would completely turn the tier on its head and change everything we know about it.
if you want to make the argument that jirachi facilitates paralysis-abusing teams to an unhealthy degree, that is a different discussion to be had tho. but iron head is a dead end because we can't suspect it alone (which i would support because the community as a whole would support it and i still consider myself to have an open mind and be receptive to discussion about jirachi). let's do another post-spl survey and see what people who played/were involved with spl think before we make any sweeping conclusions.
i just don't think jirachi is broken. it's 100% understandable to find iron head frustrating to play against and degenerate. i think there's enough counterplay and that it doesn't put a major strain on teambuilding, so i don't have any issues with it. i think dpp is in a great spot and i would not support making any changes. especially one that would completely turn the tier on its head and change everything we know about it.
if you want to make the argument that jirachi facilitates paralysis-abusing teams to an unhealthy degree, that is a different discussion to be had tho. but iron head is a dead end because we can't suspect it alone (which i would support because the community as a whole would support it and i still consider myself to have an open mind and be receptive to discussion about jirachi). let's do another post-spl survey and see what people who played/were involved with spl think before we make any sweeping conclusions.
You can easily replace Metagross with Jirachi on big 6. Alternatively, you can even run both. We should not wait for a survey when DPP PL starts in a week and we can use that to test a rachi-less meta.
Anyways, the main piece here is that I agree - Jirachi is not broken. But it is uncompetitive.
If our council banned Froslass for being uncompetitive - why are we not looking at Jirachi that has probably 1000x the usage and is infinitely better and more annoying in every way.
if jirachi is banned metagross can't fill its roles easily at all. they're totally different pokemon.
i'm down for a jira-less slot in dpppl i think that's a good idea.
as you saw in spl, froslass ban changed basically nothing about the tier. jirachi isn't looked at because of what you said: it's one of the most relevant pokemon in the metagame. it shouldn't be banned unless it's a serious, detrimental issue and the tier is very good right now (altho we can get a clearer picture with a survey abt tier satisfaction).
in bw, as you tried to follow in its steed, we're having discussions about pkmn like excadrill (effortlessly solos defensive teams without skill required), thundurus-therian (way too strong power-wise for the tier), and more. jirachi does not fall under the same blanket and dpp does not have even close to the crippling issues bw has as a metagame, with its history of terrible tiering decisions. going down these rabbit holes for settled tiers that are in really good shape is something that should be done with more caution.
if on a post-spl survey there is really strong support for action on jirachi then it's worth further discussion and a potential suspect.
Is it too crazy to say something like "flinch chance over x% is banned" for uncompetitive reasons?
Wouldn't be the *simplest* ban as it would have to include combinations like king's rock, serene grace, flinch moves all together.
And i guess it would have to exclude fake out in some way. Otherwise pretty easy to show in teambuilder like oops Jirachi has over a 50% flinch chance so this set is not allowed.
Wouldn't be the *simplest* ban as it would have to include combinations like king's rock, serene grace, flinch moves all together.
And i guess it would have to exclude fake out in some way. Otherwise pretty easy to show in teambuilder like oops Jirachi has over a 50% flinch chance so this set is not allowed.
I stand by what i've been saying for the past year and a half and I think there are currently three issues with Jirachi :
- The mon by itself is completely uncompetitive, this season again we've seen a bunch of situations where jirachi was one flinch away or one fire punch burn away from stealing a game and/or beating a supposed counter (20% ice punch is also absolutely ridiculous as we've seen it this season freezing a Magneton twice in two attempts). This SPL wasn't even the worst we've seen in the jirachi robberies department simply because the two most spammed archetypes (paraspam and stall) are overly preparred to face physical rachi sets (sometimes dealing with physical rachi with their own phys def rachi), any offense builder/player have experienced how absolutely obnoxious and unfair this mon can be. This is the n°1 and most important issue and this will remain problematic regardless of the future meta shifts.
- The uncompetitive mon allows an uncompetitive and absolutely cancerous archetype to exist (and perform), as we've seen this spl with a ridiculous and i think unprecedented paraspam usage. I still stand by what i've been saying this past year, most of the paraspam structures are (heavily) flawed and manageable with the right tools but we're in a very weird state where almost none of the players in the dpp pool this year managed to find proper answers/solutions to beat paraspam consistantly (the two most noticeable paraspam answers we've seen this year were SD Breloom and Toxic Spikes and both were brought in paraspam structures). While some paraspam variants can perform without using jirachi, it is obvious that most of these teams would be unusable with jirachi gone.
- I think that Jirachi being so centralising is one of the main reason stall and paraspam teams are now (apparently) the two most popular archetypes and are considered to be the most spammable/safest teams in the tier because they don't need to fundamentally alter their structure to deal with physical rachi as i said earlier. Overall i think this leads to a loop of meta trends where offensive teams will just end up having less and less options (which is already happening now imo) with only a bunch of restricted offensive structures performing.
On top of being uncompetitive on its own, i think that jirachi creates unhealthy dynamics that just makes the tier worse by the day. I'm confident that paraspam will decline in usage eventually as more builders with different approaches will manage to bring good paraspam solutions without altering their own playstyle too much, but these teams will always exist and will always be brought by some players and that is an issue on its own in my opinion.
Speaking of creating unhealthy dynamics, i think Clefable should be banned as well, its presence just makes the tier worse restricting specially oriented mons way too much and giving stall too many options allowing defensive teams to deal too easily with way too many issues they should be facing, just with 1 slot. Most importantly i think that most of Clef's bad influence on the tier is located in the builder and that's why i think most people still don't realise how obnoxious Clefable is for the tier because we are used to the pressure and limitations it puts on the builder. Take a step back and realise how many options you can't even consider just because of this mon when you're building an offensive team.
I'm 100% convinced that these two mons should be banned or that we should at least experiment a tier without these two at a large enough scale and with enough time to see the repercusions.
I have seen a lot of people complaining about Latias and i completely understand why, I still think that this mon's presence is overall positive as it gives good options for both offensive and defensive teams and makes some structure more flexible and versatile. Of course if Jirachi goes Latias would have to go immediately after, i don't think it would be bearable without rachi in the tier.
Same goes for Spore, this move is absolutely dumb let's be honest. The complaints are fair, but in the current situation i'm skeptical about banning it right away without nerfing defensive teams in some way.
Last year DBC and I raised some concerns regarding Machamp, regardless of the paraspam trend. I still think that this mon is extremely stupid and borderline uncompetitive, of course not close to Jirachi's level as Machamp has way more natural weaknesses but godamn can this mon be dumb and win games it should have no business winning.
I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on these mons and on a general level on the state of the tier. I know i have been annoying complaining about the games this past SPL but i truly feel like this tier doesn't get the treatment it deserves. Whatever happens next i think we should wait for Jirachee's invitational to happen before taking any actions.
No offense to any of the players involved this SPL, i'm not blaming anyone in particular and you just bring w/e the fuck you wanna bring anyway, but this SPL was the most atrocious and depressing DPP tour i've witnessed since i started playing this game and i know that i'm far from being the only one feeling this way. Gratz to Dridri for the well deserved red and insane debut on smogon.
- The mon by itself is completely uncompetitive, this season again we've seen a bunch of situations where jirachi was one flinch away or one fire punch burn away from stealing a game and/or beating a supposed counter (20% ice punch is also absolutely ridiculous as we've seen it this season freezing a Magneton twice in two attempts). This SPL wasn't even the worst we've seen in the jirachi robberies department simply because the two most spammed archetypes (paraspam and stall) are overly preparred to face physical rachi sets (sometimes dealing with physical rachi with their own phys def rachi), any offense builder/player have experienced how absolutely obnoxious and unfair this mon can be. This is the n°1 and most important issue and this will remain problematic regardless of the future meta shifts.
- The uncompetitive mon allows an uncompetitive and absolutely cancerous archetype to exist (and perform), as we've seen this spl with a ridiculous and i think unprecedented paraspam usage. I still stand by what i've been saying this past year, most of the paraspam structures are (heavily) flawed and manageable with the right tools but we're in a very weird state where almost none of the players in the dpp pool this year managed to find proper answers/solutions to beat paraspam consistantly (the two most noticeable paraspam answers we've seen this year were SD Breloom and Toxic Spikes and both were brought in paraspam structures). While some paraspam variants can perform without using jirachi, it is obvious that most of these teams would be unusable with jirachi gone.
- I think that Jirachi being so centralising is one of the main reason stall and paraspam teams are now (apparently) the two most popular archetypes and are considered to be the most spammable/safest teams in the tier because they don't need to fundamentally alter their structure to deal with physical rachi as i said earlier. Overall i think this leads to a loop of meta trends where offensive teams will just end up having less and less options (which is already happening now imo) with only a bunch of restricted offensive structures performing.
On top of being uncompetitive on its own, i think that jirachi creates unhealthy dynamics that just makes the tier worse by the day. I'm confident that paraspam will decline in usage eventually as more builders with different approaches will manage to bring good paraspam solutions without altering their own playstyle too much, but these teams will always exist and will always be brought by some players and that is an issue on its own in my opinion.
Speaking of creating unhealthy dynamics, i think Clefable should be banned as well, its presence just makes the tier worse restricting specially oriented mons way too much and giving stall too many options allowing defensive teams to deal too easily with way too many issues they should be facing, just with 1 slot. Most importantly i think that most of Clef's bad influence on the tier is located in the builder and that's why i think most people still don't realise how obnoxious Clefable is for the tier because we are used to the pressure and limitations it puts on the builder. Take a step back and realise how many options you can't even consider just because of this mon when you're building an offensive team.
I'm 100% convinced that these two mons should be banned or that we should at least experiment a tier without these two at a large enough scale and with enough time to see the repercusions.
I have seen a lot of people complaining about Latias and i completely understand why, I still think that this mon's presence is overall positive as it gives good options for both offensive and defensive teams and makes some structure more flexible and versatile. Of course if Jirachi goes Latias would have to go immediately after, i don't think it would be bearable without rachi in the tier.
Same goes for Spore, this move is absolutely dumb let's be honest. The complaints are fair, but in the current situation i'm skeptical about banning it right away without nerfing defensive teams in some way.
Last year DBC and I raised some concerns regarding Machamp, regardless of the paraspam trend. I still think that this mon is extremely stupid and borderline uncompetitive, of course not close to Jirachi's level as Machamp has way more natural weaknesses but godamn can this mon be dumb and win games it should have no business winning.
I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on these mons and on a general level on the state of the tier. I know i have been annoying complaining about the games this past SPL but i truly feel like this tier doesn't get the treatment it deserves. Whatever happens next i think we should wait for Jirachee's invitational to happen before taking any actions.
No offense to any of the players involved this SPL, i'm not blaming anyone in particular and you just bring w/e the fuck you wanna bring anyway, but this SPL was the most atrocious and depressing DPP tour i've witnessed since i started playing this game and i know that i'm far from being the only one feeling this way. Gratz to Dridri for the well deserved red and insane debut on smogon.
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As a former lati hater, it does not need to go if jirachi goes, theres plenty of other steels with decent special defense to fill the void, empoleon and metagross being the main ones.
Thanks for the praise BIHI though i got lucky i got picked by such a great team
I'll try to give my opinion to make the tier more competitive, even if i don't play DPP competitively since a long time.
I enjoy the tier a lot as it is today already with a large variety ot teams being viable from HO, to very different bulky offense, some balance, semi stall, stall and of course paraspam^^, even rain is somewhat viable. i don't hate paraspam and stall being in the tier, though we can debate of the competitivity of the status as a whole (another 2 hours BKC video, yeaah^^ i should recommand your channel to my patients with trouble sleeping it works wonder with me) if u imagine a team with starmie paralyzing swampert, so u're rhyperior can sd on clefable and then overpower a paralysed swampert it's all about good placement. But we all know it's not what's bothering people with paraspam.
max hp 244 spe the rest in defense iron head body slam wish protect is an excellent support pokemon that spread para, is reliant defensively and can heal your mons all of this is ok in my mind but iron head makes it feel as it is a wallbreaker too, as it can reasonably beat almost all mons who are para and neutral to iron head except stuff like leftovers hippodown. This feels uncompetitive it's as if gengar was too much for the tier but only when focus blast hit.
with that being said i don't think jirachi should be banned as it would completely change the tier, though i'm not against testing in dpppl or other tours. but banning iron head would make the tier more competitive without shaking too much the metagame, we would keep the excellent cm and scarf set of jirachi, paraspam would still be fonctionning with body slam wish protect, u turn tbolt(for gyara), it would still be a great support pokemon in paraspam and stall, just not a wallbreaker half of the time.
Apparently there are already been tentatives to ban iron head without success, but if u look to SV last respects got banned from ou, and uber, it got banned because it forced tera normal or arceus normal in every team. in DPP i think we should at least try a DPP without iron head and if the tier is still balanced with ho, stall, balance and paraspam surviving we'll just get our tier as it was but more competitive.
About clefable: personnally i love the mon as it's invulnerabilty to para makes it, in my mind a very competitive mon, if without iron head paraspam becomes weaker, i won't see the need for a ban, yeah it takes on every special attacker besides some specs mons and it can knock but it needs defensive mons for support and weakening jira might be enough. I don't think he's a problem on stall and semi stall. if i think we should ban iron head it's because it's uncompetitive not because it's overpowered, i feel clefable competitive, if some want to ban it should be because it's overpowered or put too much strain on teambuilding, i think we sould see about that after an iron head ban
About latias: i feel scarf and specs ok in the tier especially with ttar being everywhere and steel being the best type, if jira is weakened and we see less clefs as a result we'll see if it's too much. right now i think defensive latias is the best set, and with iron head being banned it could change.
I'll try to give my opinion to make the tier more competitive, even if i don't play DPP competitively since a long time.
I enjoy the tier a lot as it is today already with a large variety ot teams being viable from HO, to very different bulky offense, some balance, semi stall, stall and of course paraspam^^, even rain is somewhat viable. i don't hate paraspam and stall being in the tier, though we can debate of the competitivity of the status as a whole (another 2 hours BKC video, yeaah^^ i should recommand your channel to my patients with trouble sleeping it works wonder with me) if u imagine a team with starmie paralyzing swampert, so u're rhyperior can sd on clefable and then overpower a paralysed swampert it's all about good placement. But we all know it's not what's bothering people with paraspam.
max hp 244 spe the rest in defense iron head body slam wish protect is an excellent support pokemon that spread para, is reliant defensively and can heal your mons all of this is ok in my mind but iron head makes it feel as it is a wallbreaker too, as it can reasonably beat almost all mons who are para and neutral to iron head except stuff like leftovers hippodown. This feels uncompetitive it's as if gengar was too much for the tier but only when focus blast hit.
with that being said i don't think jirachi should be banned as it would completely change the tier, though i'm not against testing in dpppl or other tours. but banning iron head would make the tier more competitive without shaking too much the metagame, we would keep the excellent cm and scarf set of jirachi, paraspam would still be fonctionning with body slam wish protect, u turn tbolt(for gyara), it would still be a great support pokemon in paraspam and stall, just not a wallbreaker half of the time.
Apparently there are already been tentatives to ban iron head without success, but if u look to SV last respects got banned from ou, and uber, it got banned because it forced tera normal or arceus normal in every team. in DPP i think we should at least try a DPP without iron head and if the tier is still balanced with ho, stall, balance and paraspam surviving we'll just get our tier as it was but more competitive.
About clefable: personnally i love the mon as it's invulnerabilty to para makes it, in my mind a very competitive mon, if without iron head paraspam becomes weaker, i won't see the need for a ban, yeah it takes on every special attacker besides some specs mons and it can knock but it needs defensive mons for support and weakening jira might be enough. I don't think he's a problem on stall and semi stall. if i think we should ban iron head it's because it's uncompetitive not because it's overpowered, i feel clefable competitive, if some want to ban it should be because it's overpowered or put too much strain on teambuilding, i think we sould see about that after an iron head ban
About latias: i feel scarf and specs ok in the tier especially with ttar being everywhere and steel being the best type, if jira is weakened and we see less clefs as a result we'll see if it's too much. right now i think defensive latias is the best set, and with iron head being banned it could change.
I don't really have the energy to make a long-winded post about Jirachi at the moment but I will in the future if the discussion continues.
For me it simply boils down to: I find DPP to be one of the most enjoyable and competitive metagames Smogon has to offer so any changes that aren't a potential Iron Head ban are undesirable to me. Also make SPL bo3, bo1 Pokemon is a joke.
I'm pretty hopeful for this tiers future as a whole and looking forward to seeing how it develops further.
For me it simply boils down to: I find DPP to be one of the most enjoyable and competitive metagames Smogon has to offer so any changes that aren't a potential Iron Head ban are undesirable to me. Also make SPL bo3, bo1 Pokemon is a joke.
I'm pretty hopeful for this tiers future as a whole and looking forward to seeing how it develops further.
Going to put down my thoughts in points so that it's easier to follow:
1) I agree with BIHI that Jirachi's issues will remain persistent despite metagame shifts. Since banning Iron Head is not on the table, any discussion around this would be futile. So I'm up for banning Jirachi period. My thoughts remain the same as outlined in the below post:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-metagame-discussion-thread.3685887/post-9743301
2) I don't believe Lati needs to go if Jirachi is banned because this would be akin to saying that every team needs a Jirachi to ensure that they are solid against Lati, and we've seen that this need not be the case.
3) Spore (and sleep as a status) should be banned imo. While this is a good tool against defensive teams, I believe they are actually more well-equipped to deal with spore as they have a spore absorber (Sleep Talk Jira/Rotom or Skarm) + one or two Breloom switch-ins (like Zapdos / Celebi / Lati). The problem with Spore is that it heavily punishes offensive teams too. If you're running Physical Swamp, CB TTar, or CB Gyara, and facing an opposing team with Spore, then this is a huge momentum sink. I've tried ways to deal with spore, like using Specs Sleep Talk Lati, or LO Sleep Talk Gengar, but none of these are confident answers to spore. For example, if your Breloom answer/switch-in is Sleep Talk Lati, the Breloom user can sub against the incoming Lati, and then spore it as Lati breaks sub. You know what happens next. It's also not easy when you don't know if you're facing a Sub Breloom or 3 attk Loom without enough information at hand (e.g., Loom is likely to be Mach if the Breloom user's team is weak to DD TTar, but you won't know this unless the remaining mons have been revealed).
4) Machamp (or Dynamic Punch to be specific) should also go because Machamp is also an enabler of the bullshit that we have seen happen. A sub Machamp facing a paralyzed offensive mon is a disaster situation for the latter. Some may say that Machamp is "healthy" for the tier because it punishes teams that are not prepared for it, but I don't think it's a fair ask to have teams to be solid against something like Machamp. The only purpose Dynamic Punch serves is to hax the opponent, and Cross Chop is a healthier alternative to it.
5) I don't have any opinion on Clefable atm, but I get why a lot of folks consider it to be banworthy.
6) Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I do find teambuilding to be quite restrictive when taking into account Jirachi, Machamp, and Spore. And when I say I find teambuilding to be restrictive, I mean building a team that you feel confident in where you have enough tools to win most matchups.
1) I agree with BIHI that Jirachi's issues will remain persistent despite metagame shifts. Since banning Iron Head is not on the table, any discussion around this would be futile. So I'm up for banning Jirachi period. My thoughts remain the same as outlined in the below post:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-metagame-discussion-thread.3685887/post-9743301
2) I don't believe Lati needs to go if Jirachi is banned because this would be akin to saying that every team needs a Jirachi to ensure that they are solid against Lati, and we've seen that this need not be the case.
3) Spore (and sleep as a status) should be banned imo. While this is a good tool against defensive teams, I believe they are actually more well-equipped to deal with spore as they have a spore absorber (Sleep Talk Jira/Rotom or Skarm) + one or two Breloom switch-ins (like Zapdos / Celebi / Lati). The problem with Spore is that it heavily punishes offensive teams too. If you're running Physical Swamp, CB TTar, or CB Gyara, and facing an opposing team with Spore, then this is a huge momentum sink. I've tried ways to deal with spore, like using Specs Sleep Talk Lati, or LO Sleep Talk Gengar, but none of these are confident answers to spore. For example, if your Breloom answer/switch-in is Sleep Talk Lati, the Breloom user can sub against the incoming Lati, and then spore it as Lati breaks sub. You know what happens next. It's also not easy when you don't know if you're facing a Sub Breloom or 3 attk Loom without enough information at hand (e.g., Loom is likely to be Mach if the Breloom user's team is weak to DD TTar, but you won't know this unless the remaining mons have been revealed).
4) Machamp (or Dynamic Punch to be specific) should also go because Machamp is also an enabler of the bullshit that we have seen happen. A sub Machamp facing a paralyzed offensive mon is a disaster situation for the latter. Some may say that Machamp is "healthy" for the tier because it punishes teams that are not prepared for it, but I don't think it's a fair ask to have teams to be solid against something like Machamp. The only purpose Dynamic Punch serves is to hax the opponent, and Cross Chop is a healthier alternative to it.
5) I don't have any opinion on Clefable atm, but I get why a lot of folks consider it to be banworthy.
6) Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I do find teambuilding to be quite restrictive when taking into account Jirachi, Machamp, and Spore. And when I say I find teambuilding to be restrictive, I mean building a team that you feel confident in where you have enough tools to win most matchups.
Not gonna be a long post, but just wanted to voice my opinion on this matter
As BIHI said, I think the time has come to at least try a metagame without Jirachi. Tbh, I don't think there's any perfect solution here: CM rachi is probably one of the most skill based Pokemon in the current meta, and I really appreciate his presence in the tier. In the other hand, because of Iron Head, Jirachi, although not broken, is clearly uncompetitive. So we end up with a good number of matches where the outcome is decided by whether or not Jirachi gets its flinch. We've also ha a never before seen rate of paraspam/stall this SPL , and many of these teams are also that good thanks to Jirachi, and I don't feel this is something good for the tier. Once again, Jirachi is clearly not broken, but it brings a lot of unhealthy and uncompetitive dynamics to the tier.
I'm a bit concerned about Latias presence if we ban Jirachi. For me, Latias is clearly the second best pokemon in the tier at the moment, and with Jirachi gone, it will be even better. I'm particularly worried about the specs and cm ones, but it's smthing we could figure out by testing a no Jirachi tier.
Even if I I do not have any strong opinion on Clefable rn, with Rachi gone, the cm set definitely looks awesome, and I'm pretty sure we would have to ban it. Same as tias above, we would have to test that meta.
I don't have any strong opinion on Sleeping moves rn
Fuck Machamp
So yh, a Jirachi ban would definitely change the entiere meta, and would probably force some other bans (Tias / Clef), but I think we could at least test it
As BIHI said, I think the time has come to at least try a metagame without Jirachi. Tbh, I don't think there's any perfect solution here: CM rachi is probably one of the most skill based Pokemon in the current meta, and I really appreciate his presence in the tier. In the other hand, because of Iron Head, Jirachi, although not broken, is clearly uncompetitive. So we end up with a good number of matches where the outcome is decided by whether or not Jirachi gets its flinch. We've also ha a never before seen rate of paraspam/stall this SPL , and many of these teams are also that good thanks to Jirachi, and I don't feel this is something good for the tier. Once again, Jirachi is clearly not broken, but it brings a lot of unhealthy and uncompetitive dynamics to the tier.
I'm a bit concerned about Latias presence if we ban Jirachi. For me, Latias is clearly the second best pokemon in the tier at the moment, and with Jirachi gone, it will be even better. I'm particularly worried about the specs and cm ones, but it's smthing we could figure out by testing a no Jirachi tier.
Even if I I do not have any strong opinion on Clefable rn, with Rachi gone, the cm set definitely looks awesome, and I'm pretty sure we would have to ban it. Same as tias above, we would have to test that meta.
I don't have any strong opinion on Sleeping moves rn
Fuck Machamp
So yh, a Jirachi ban would definitely change the entiere meta, and would probably force some other bans (Tias / Clef), but I think we could at least test it
Not a high-level player so bear with me here. Banning Jirachi should only be considered as a last resort imo, I enjoy using Calm Mind Jirachi and I think it is worth keeping in the tier. I think it's a better idea to try and tackle properly the highly problematic tiering policy that allowed for this situation to develop, so we can deal with the real culprit that is Iron Head. In addition if we end up banning Jirachi outright, the effects this might have on the meta may be more severe than we are able to comprehend now. It's a huge risk, and while I think risks are sometimes worth taking when it comes to tiering, we deserve more options.
I agree with BIHI,
Clefable invalidates a lot of teams/mons, and makes teambuilding very restrictive. Magic Guard is absurd, incredible movepoll, knock off is unhealthy... I've been trying to ignore it in the builder and ended up with a ton of cool and creative ideas (try it yourself). It should just be banned in my opinion.
Clefable invalidates a lot of teams/mons, and makes teambuilding very restrictive. Magic Guard is absurd, incredible movepoll, knock off is unhealthy... I've been trying to ignore it in the builder and ended up with a ton of cool and creative ideas (try it yourself). It should just be banned in my opinion.
I've been of the opinion that jirachi needs to go nearly since I joined smogon. I think it is the root cause of the problem, and the other pokemon people have been mentioning are secondary.
My personal preference is for an iron head (IH) ban, but failing that I'm ok with an outright ban on jirachi too.
I think the tier deserves the option to just ban IH, considering that baton pass was recently complex banned and it seems those are ok now
.
My personal preference is for an iron head (IH) ban, but failing that I'm ok with an outright ban on jirachi too.
I think the tier deserves the option to just ban IH, considering that baton pass was recently complex banned and it seems those are ok now
.I’m leaving a note here that I am against a machamp ban, and a no guard ban. I’m worried that if I don’t mentioned this explicitly, then someone will say everyone here is for it.
I might be a bit bias though:
Please no delete champ
I might be a bit bias though:
Please no delete champ
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I'm in the hype train of AOE II last DLC and Ragecraft 4 ( extremely good Minecraft map made by the goat Heliceo ) but I realised that I didn't post anything here which is really sad.
I almost never give my opinions on the tier but since I played SPL I think I must do it. Time for me to be 100% honest.
I enjoy this metagame, you can be creative and build very solid teams BUT we still have major problems that restrain teambuilding and ingame. So I wanted to talk about things that have been already discussed :
First of all is ofc Iron Head. I'm 100% for a IHead ban which invalidates a lot of cool teams that are weak to " Iron Head spam " cause opp doesn't have a other way to beat the teams. But since apparently we can't do it ( yay smogon =) =) =) !! ) I'm very concerned. Imo a Jirachi ban will just make Latias / Breloom stronger ( and they're already extremely strong rn ). I don't believe people saying that Lati into a Jirachi less meta won't be an issue, removing the only Steel type pokemon that have a recovery move will be a massive boost for it; Jirachi runs in some stalls the RT set ( sleep absorber ) and on offense sets with Lum Berry to prevent Sleep and get back the momentum ( we also have the fact that it resists Grass and takes 1/2 on rocks not like Dnite for ex ).
I think we need a lot of different experimentations if we want to completely ban it to see how metagame is adapting and not just an irrelevant dpppl slot, we need bigger experiments to get more datas in order to take the right decision and not to say after 1 year " yeah it was better before, lets reintroduce Jirachi " and pass for clowns but ig we don't care about that ?
Ofc CM sets will miss but this is irrelevant.
Second point ( and I really wanted to put it first since it is imo MORE tilting than Iron Head ) is Dynamic Punch !
Let's be honest everyone, Machamp is a shit mon and only relies on Confusion x Para to beat anything in the tier. As a Ghost-less and Jirachi-less fat / stall spammer I have seen way too much Machamp bursting throught things like Max Def Hippo, Psychic Max Celebi, Reflect Def Lati or Def Zapdos. This move is incredibly stupid and anti-competitive. Ban the move or the mon itself but It needs to go ASAP. Ty for these words DBC :
After this I think paraspam will imo still exists with winconds like SD Loom / Gliscor etc but will be definitely nerfed as f. Maybe it will adapt but losing Rachi = losing common wincond and losing Champ = losing common wincond so it means less "good" and unhealthy options.
Third point is sleep : it is fine cause Breloom is good into stall and allows you to have good TTar / Pert / Mono-Surf Starmie / Clefable and Paraspam counterplay. Offense is now way more efficient into Loom by having good sleep answers and having a lot of mons threatening and outspeeding it ( if you have 6 pokemons that outspeed it and that can force it out, Spore / Loom will never be a problem ). If Jirachi + Latias goes to Ubers we have to at least ban it cause this two are excellent checks to it. But yeah then if we ban it what will happen ? A Clefable ban for sure and then ? Is the tier gonna be stabilize like some players are saying ? Idts. Imo it will just a be an offense clown fiesta and I won't be satisfied in a such metagame, maybe others will ( I hope my vision is wrong ). Oh and talking of Sleep Talk on Choice locked mons is just irrelevant and a throw in the builder; don't use that we have better options.
Fourth point is Clefable : it allows stall to be good so more diversity in the tier ( maybe too much but not only a offense clown fiesta tier ). Don't tell me that we can just replace Clef by that shitmon that is Bliss, stall will be in a very bad position : restrained, prob force to fish spikeless MUs or to play Spin + Bliss ( which is doable ofc but limit the options ). We should not forget that Max Def Clef almost hard counter a lot of physical Jirachi variants and is Clef is immu to para. For the specially offensive mons, Clef walls ... Suicune and Superachi ( and they have options to be better into Clef / stall ) ... Rotom has Trick / Pain Split, Latias Specs burst throught it or can just Trick it, Zapdos has Roost x U-Turn into Breloom of ex etc etc.
I won't deny that Knock Off might be broken and that its movepool is absurdly good, I just don't see Clef as a problem ( If we ban Rachi and Loom yeah it will be a problem ). Maybe a real problem that I can see is Cosmic Power but it is for now just an offense fish ( can get crit / taunt too ), it is completely useless vs Stall and it takes a slot that can be Encore / TWave etc.
Last point is BO3 : I am for BO3, let's go for DPP BO3, it will be way more healthier, we saw it during JDI.
Now it's my turn to put some topics on the table :
Togekiss is broken. Its bulk is absurd, Air Slash has 32 PP and the Nasty Plot TWave combo makes it completly uncompetitive. Another Paraspam wincond ............ which is not very explored for now so we still have room for innovation. We saw a Togekiss during SPL winning the game solo or during Galaxy League where a Bold Togekiss with HBell support was able to bs Zapdos / Starmie / JIrachi and Heatran !
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-753928?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2093165739?p2
Stop sleeping on it and let's ban it. This abomination cannot stay in the tier esp if we want IHead / Jirachi to go.
( 
)
Confuse Ray has no reason to exist in any tier, can we just ban it or are we still going to consider it as a useless / bad / cheesy move ? I brought a team with CR Rotom ( I shouldn't have cause I think we can do better than my team ) during SPL because I trusted my call. Even if my CR Rotom got burned and I lost because I played like a brainless human, I strongly believe that it can bs a lot of pokemons notably Clef / Tran / TTar. It is even better with para support or / and Spikes / TSpikes. Sub CR PSplit or RT CR filler are the sets. Rotom isn't the only user, Brozong / Milotic can use it ( Froslass was running it ! ). But what's the point of CR ? Forcing switches so forcing opp to take Spikes / TSpikes and if not you have 50% chance to get free damages and to prevent opp to do anything with his mon. And overall it is just a riskless midground that punish everything coming in. Oh and CR has 100% of accuracy so yeah can't even miss ! Please let's get rid of this shit before next JDI. No one will ever regret.
Time for me to sleep, Ragecraft 4 is insanely good but mentally exhausting so I was already very tired while writing this so I hope I didn't forget to much words or did too much mistakes.
I almost never give my opinions on the tier but since I played SPL I think I must do it. Time for me to be 100% honest.
I enjoy this metagame, you can be creative and build very solid teams BUT we still have major problems that restrain teambuilding and ingame. So I wanted to talk about things that have been already discussed :
First of all is ofc Iron Head. I'm 100% for a IHead ban which invalidates a lot of cool teams that are weak to " Iron Head spam " cause opp doesn't have a other way to beat the teams. But since apparently we can't do it ( yay smogon =) =) =) !! ) I'm very concerned. Imo a Jirachi ban will just make Latias / Breloom stronger ( and they're already extremely strong rn ). I don't believe people saying that Lati into a Jirachi less meta won't be an issue, removing the only Steel type pokemon that have a recovery move will be a massive boost for it; Jirachi runs in some stalls the RT set ( sleep absorber ) and on offense sets with Lum Berry to prevent Sleep and get back the momentum ( we also have the fact that it resists Grass and takes 1/2 on rocks not like Dnite for ex ).
I think we need a lot of different experimentations if we want to completely ban it to see how metagame is adapting and not just an irrelevant dpppl slot, we need bigger experiments to get more datas in order to take the right decision and not to say after 1 year " yeah it was better before, lets reintroduce Jirachi " and pass for clowns but ig we don't care about that ?
Ofc CM sets will miss but this is irrelevant.
Second point ( and I really wanted to put it first since it is imo MORE tilting than Iron Head ) is Dynamic Punch !
Let's be honest everyone, Machamp is a shit mon and only relies on Confusion x Para to beat anything in the tier. As a Ghost-less and Jirachi-less fat / stall spammer I have seen way too much Machamp bursting throught things like Max Def Hippo, Psychic Max Celebi, Reflect Def Lati or Def Zapdos. This move is incredibly stupid and anti-competitive. Ban the move or the mon itself but It needs to go ASAP. Ty for these words DBC :
After this I think paraspam will imo still exists with winconds like SD Loom / Gliscor etc but will be definitely nerfed as f. Maybe it will adapt but losing Rachi = losing common wincond and losing Champ = losing common wincond so it means less "good" and unhealthy options.
Third point is sleep : it is fine cause Breloom is good into stall and allows you to have good TTar / Pert / Mono-Surf Starmie / Clefable and Paraspam counterplay. Offense is now way more efficient into Loom by having good sleep answers and having a lot of mons threatening and outspeeding it ( if you have 6 pokemons that outspeed it and that can force it out, Spore / Loom will never be a problem ). If Jirachi + Latias goes to Ubers we have to at least ban it cause this two are excellent checks to it. But yeah then if we ban it what will happen ? A Clefable ban for sure and then ? Is the tier gonna be stabilize like some players are saying ? Idts. Imo it will just a be an offense clown fiesta and I won't be satisfied in a such metagame, maybe others will ( I hope my vision is wrong ). Oh and talking of Sleep Talk on Choice locked mons is just irrelevant and a throw in the builder; don't use that we have better options.
Fourth point is Clefable : it allows stall to be good so more diversity in the tier ( maybe too much but not only a offense clown fiesta tier ). Don't tell me that we can just replace Clef by that shitmon that is Bliss, stall will be in a very bad position : restrained, prob force to fish spikeless MUs or to play Spin + Bliss ( which is doable ofc but limit the options ). We should not forget that Max Def Clef almost hard counter a lot of physical Jirachi variants and is Clef is immu to para. For the specially offensive mons, Clef walls ... Suicune and Superachi ( and they have options to be better into Clef / stall ) ... Rotom has Trick / Pain Split, Latias Specs burst throught it or can just Trick it, Zapdos has Roost x U-Turn into Breloom of ex etc etc.
I won't deny that Knock Off might be broken and that its movepool is absurdly good, I just don't see Clef as a problem ( If we ban Rachi and Loom yeah it will be a problem ). Maybe a real problem that I can see is Cosmic Power but it is for now just an offense fish ( can get crit / taunt too ), it is completely useless vs Stall and it takes a slot that can be Encore / TWave etc.
Last point is BO3 : I am for BO3, let's go for DPP BO3, it will be way more healthier, we saw it during JDI.
Now it's my turn to put some topics on the table :
Togekiss is broken. Its bulk is absurd, Air Slash has 32 PP and the Nasty Plot TWave combo makes it completly uncompetitive. Another Paraspam wincond ............ which is not very explored for now so we still have room for innovation. We saw a Togekiss during SPL winning the game solo or during Galaxy League where a Bold Togekiss with HBell support was able to bs Zapdos / Starmie / JIrachi and Heatran !
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-753928?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-2093165739?p2
Stop sleeping on it and let's ban it. This abomination cannot stay in the tier esp if we want IHead / Jirachi to go.
( )Confuse Ray has no reason to exist in any tier, can we just ban it or are we still going to consider it as a useless / bad / cheesy move ? I brought a team with CR Rotom ( I shouldn't have cause I think we can do better than my team ) during SPL because I trusted my call. Even if my CR Rotom got burned and I lost because I played like a brainless human, I strongly believe that it can bs a lot of pokemons notably Clef / Tran / TTar. It is even better with para support or / and Spikes / TSpikes. Sub CR PSplit or RT CR filler are the sets. Rotom isn't the only user, Brozong / Milotic can use it ( Froslass was running it ! ). But what's the point of CR ? Forcing switches so forcing opp to take Spikes / TSpikes and if not you have 50% chance to get free damages and to prevent opp to do anything with his mon. And overall it is just a riskless midground that punish everything coming in. Oh and CR has 100% of accuracy so yeah can't even miss ! Please let's get rid of this shit before next JDI. No one will ever regret.
Time for me to sleep, Ragecraft 4 is insanely good but mentally exhausting so I was already very tired while writing this so I hope I didn't forget to much words or did too much mistakes.
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Lot to respond to.. but I almost never run jirachi and I dont struggle with latias too much. Zong has options, Ttar can trap it, even Vaporeon can check it.
I could see banning latias because like BKC said once, it fits on to any/every team, but I dont think jirachi is the only thing holding back latias from crushing the tier