Metagame [Spoilers] Monotype Generation 8 Pre-Release Discussion

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Perish Song

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Lots of things
I just wanna add a few details that you might have missed.

The biggest hit is without a doubt the fact that it has no hazard removal.
Frosmoth actually gets Defog and has Ice Scales to take advantage of its acceptable special bulk in 70/90 so this could be potentially forced into teams with Heavy Duty Boots.
- Rock setter Mawile
Clefable exists in Fairy.
- Rock setter Terrakion
Cobalion exists in Fighting.
- No Electric Immunity/Good Resist
Pretty sure we can use Kommo-o as a good electric resist in the absence of HP Ice and not a lot of mons getting Fairy coverage.

Thanks for putting up a good list tho, can you do Water when you have time?
 

Perish Song

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I did some compiling and made a list of distribution of Utility Moves. Below, you will find the type distribution for Knock Off, Stealth Rock, Hazard Removal, Toxic Spikes and Spikes, and Toxic. All the listed Pokemon are fully evolved. Also, the list doesn't factor the possible learnset that might happen from transfers, this is just the datamined info. I used this as my source. Let me know if you find any mistakes and I will fix it.

Bug: Shuckle, Crustle, Escavalier, Centiskorch
Dark: Obstagoon, Sableye, Crawdaunt, Drapion, Mandibuzz, Nickit
Fairy: Gardevoir
Fighting: Machamp, Sirfetch'd, Gallade, Passimian
Fire: Salazzle, Centiskorch
Flying: Farfetch'd, Pelipper, Swoobat, Mandibuzz
Grass: Ferrothorn, Decidueye, Rillaboom
Ghost: Sableye, Decidueye, Salazzle
Normal: Obstagoon, Cinccino
Poison: Drapion
Psychic: Gallade, Gardevoir, Swoobat
Rock: Shuckle, Crustle
Steel: Escavalier, Ferrothorn
Water: Kingler, Ludicolo, Crawdaunt, Pelipper

Types without Knock Off: Electric, Dragon, Rock, Ground, Ice
Bug: Shuckle, Crustle
Dark: Tyranitar, Bisharp,
Dragon: Kommo-o, Duraladon
Electric: Stunfisk
Fairy: Clefable, Mawile
Fighting: Cobalion, Terrakion, Kommo-o
Fire: Torkoal, Coalossal
Ghost: Cursola, Golurk, Runerigus
Grass: Celebi, Ferrothorn,
Ground: Dugtrio, Steelix, Rhyperior, Mamoswine, Claydol, Hippowdon, Excadrill, Seismitoad, Stunfisk ( Galarian as well), Golurk, Mudsdale, Sandaconda, Runerigus
Ice: Piloswine, Mamoswine
Psychic: Mew, Celebi, Lunatone, Solrock, Claydol, Jirachi, Bronzong, Necrozma,
Rock: Onix, Rhyperior, Sudowoodo, Shuckle, Corsola, Tyranitar, Lunatone, Solrock, Gigalith, Crustle, Barbaracle, Terrakion, Drednaw, Coalossal, Stonjourner
Steel: Steelix, Mawile, Jirachi, Bronzong, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Galarian Stunfisk, Bisharp, Cobalion, Copperajah, Duraladon
Water: Corsola, Seismitoad, Barbaracle, Drednaw

Types without Stealth Rock: Flying, Normal, Poison
Defog

Bug: Frosmoth
Dark: Mandibuzz, Shiftry
Dragon: Noivern,
Fairy: Galar Weezing
Fighting: Conkeldurr, Sirfetch'd, Hawlucha
Flying: Cramorant, Rookidee, Noivern, Hawlucha, Mandibuzz, Braviary, Unfezant, Drifblim, Noctowl
Ghost: Decidueye, Drifblim
Grass: Decidueye, Shiftry
Ice: Frosmoth
Normal: Braviary, Unfezant, Noctowl
Poison: Galar Weezing
Water: Cramorant

Types without Defog: Electric, Fire, Ground,Psychic, Rock, Steel

Rapid Spin

Dark: Morpeko
Dragon: Turtonator
Electric: Morpeko
Fighting: Hitmontop
Fire: Torkoal, Turtonator, Coalossal
Flying: Delibird
Ghost: Dhelmise
Grass: Tsareena, Dhelmise, Eldegoss
Ground: Claydol, Excadrill
Ice: Delibird, Mr. Rime, Avalugg
Psychic: Mr. Rime, Claydol
Rock: Coalossal
Steel: Excadrill
Water: Blastoise

Types without Rapid Spin: Bug, Fairy, Normal, Poison
Types that have only one option for hazard removal: Bug(Defog), Fairy (Defog), Poison (Defog), Electric (Rapid Spin), Rock (Rapid Spin), Steel (Rapid Spin)
Types without removal: None
Spikes

Bug: Crustle, Accelgor, Golisopod
Electric: Pincurcin
Fire: Coalossal
Flying: Delibird
Ghost: Froslass
Grass: Roserade, Maractus, Ferrothorn
Ground: Diggersby
Ice: Cloyster, Delibird, Glalie, Froslass
Normal: Diggersby
Psychic: Mew
Poison: Qwilfish, Roserade, Garbodor
Rock: Crustle, Coalossal
Steel: Ferrothorn
Water: Cloyster, Qwilfish, Golisopod

Types Without Spikes: Dark, Dragon, Fairy, Fighting,

Toxic Spikes

Bug: Vespiquen, Accelgor
Dark: Drapion
Dragon: Eternatus
Electric: Pincurcin
Fairy: Galar Weezing
Flying: Vespiquen,
Ghost: Cofagrigus, Runegrigus
Grass: Roserade
Ground: Runegrigus
Ice: Cloyster
Psychic: Mew
Poison: Galar Weezing, Qwilfish, Roserade, Drapion, Garbodor, Toxapex, Eternatus
Water: Cloyster, Qwilfish, Toxapex

Types without Toxic Spikes: Fighting, Fire, Normal, Rock, Steel
Types without both Tox Spikes & Spikes: Fighting
Types that have both Tox Spikes & Spikes: Bug, Electric, Flying,Ghost, Grass, Ground, Ice, Psychic, Poison, Water.
Bug: Shuckle, Vespiquen, Accelgor
Dark: Skuntank, Drapion, Mandibuzz
Dragon: Eternatus
Electric: Toxtricity
Fairy: Galarian Weezing,
Fighting: Toxicroak
Fire: Salazzle,
Flying: Vespiquen
Ghost: Gengar
Grass: Venusaur, Vileplume, Bellossom, Roserade, Ferrothorn
Ground: Quagsire, Seismitoad, Eternatus
Poison: Venusaur, Vileplume, Gengar, Weezing (Normal + Galar), Roserade, Skuntank, Drapion, Toxicroak, Garbodor, Toxapex, Salazzle, Toxtricity
Rock: Shuckle
Steel: Ferrothorn
Water: Quagsire, Seismitoad, Toxapex, Pyukumuku

Types without Toxic: Ice, Normal, Psychic
 
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Moosical

big yikes
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I'd like to make just a general comment as a reminder that although all of the data for these Pokemon were in the source files and identified during the datamine, I would not be surprised if a lot of the legendaries will be released progressively through events. So, for example, there is potential that we may not have Terrakion, Cobalion, Virizion, or Keldeo at the start of the generation and thus, will not be usable until they are released in game.

I think it's a little hard to speculate teams that may be reliant on Pokemon that fall into this category (namely Fighting I suppose), particularly for the start of the generation. If they do plan on releasing Pokemon progressively throughout the generation (like they did for mega stones in Generation 7), then I think that will be a very interesting shuffle for our metagame that may prevent it from becoming static/balanced for such a long period of time.
 
Ice looks pretty dangerous right now. I don't see Kyurem-B stay in monotype with Dragon Dance and Icicle Speer. Also, dynamax Kyurem-B sounds frightening. Remember its signature move? Technically, you could use it for three turns without any repercussions.

Then, there's Galarian Darmanitan's zen-mode, which is ICE/FIRE. It probably needs the Boots to not suffer from Stealth Rock, but its Attack stat (160!) is impressive, and speed (135) is great. It will likely have a niche in ice teams, especially with ita access to Flareblitz.

Then, there's Eiscue. Use it against a physical Pkm and set up Belly Drum. After that, you're going to threaten your opponent with 6+ and 130 Speed Stat if it doesn't have its ice block anymore.
What are you talking about? Eiscue only has base 50 Speed. Does its Speed double after losing its Ice Face or something?
 
Its speed stat changes the moment it looses its ice block. It becomes 130., therefore making it a threatening late game sweeper.
Nice. Shame it's movepool sucks, it has virtually no coverage outside of Liquidation, Double-Edge and Zen Headbutt. Won't be walled by Toxapex I guess. Looking forward to Ice actually being decent this gen. Shame Bug is going to suck, it is my favourite type to ladder with in USUM. Ghost and Psychic could get a lot better too, with Pursuit being gone.
 
Minor addition to this: unlike for Defog on some types, these three types can’t even rely on PokeHome for Stealth Rock. None of the transferable Pokémon learn Stealth Rock even in past gens. It’s going to be a rough few years for them.
or we could just use the national dex so as not to screw players over. that's an option

for what it's worth, I trust that the current leaders will be able to maintain an enjoyable tier like they have this past gen.
given that the tier is now unplayable for a third of all possible types, id say your trust may just be misplaced.

severely.
 

Havens

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given that the tier is now unplayable for a third of all possible types, id say your trust may just be misplaced.

severely.
Fret not really, I have an unconditional faith that our leadership will take the proper and necessary steps to stabilize the metagame and make it as fun as possible, while maintaining the integrity of the meta through cartridge legal standards. I won’t lie when I say it’s going to be drastically different than this gen with the lack of a national dex and lack of certain competitive aspects and moves, but without our current leadership, our tier would not be as popular, stable, and officially recognized as it is today.

Sure it’ll be different and some types were affected drastically, but “entirely unplayable”? I think not. Let’s be positive!
 
Fret not really, I have an unconditional faith that our leadership will take the proper and necessary steps to stabilize the metagame and make it as fun as possible, while maintaining the integrity of the meta through cartridge legal standards. I won’t lie when I say it’s going to be drastically different than this gen with the lack of a national dex and lack of certain competitive aspects and moves, but without our current leadership, our tier would not be as popular, stable, and officially recognized as it is today.

Sure it’ll be different and some types were affected drastically, but “entirely unplayable”? I think not. Let’s be positive!
as if normal didn't suck enough already it now lost chansey, blissey, porgon-2, porygon-Z, smeargle, staraptor, mega lopunny, mega pigeot and meloetta, meaning I have no walls, no utilites, no special sweepers, and no fast physical sweepers. i imagine my team of six wooloo will win many a battle out of sheer pity - oh wait, no it wont because im not allowed to double up.

you realize all this could be solved by not screwing over people for no reason, right?
 

Kev

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or we could just use the national dex so as not to screw players over. that's an option
Smogon tiers must be cartridge legal. We can't simply choose to use whatever we want.

Also, in absolutely no way does not using the national dex "screw over players". Monotype has always had types that are unplayable competitively bar their niche cteams or playstyles. The changes of this gen shouldn't be drastic enough to make the whole game unplayable. Especially since we are still in speculation phase, we have no guarantee about how things will turn out. Furthermore, the only thing that "screws over players" is their inability or unwillingness to adapt. If someone who only uses Normal feels like they are victims of the new changes, maybe they should be focusing on diversifying their repertoire. Monotype is a tier which strives for a balanced metagame, not one that caters to type mains.

There should be an OM that has the full National dex, perhaps we'll eventually have a monotype OM based around that. However, the main Monotype tier will be cartridge legal regardless of what limitations it imposes. Whining about it on forums or anywhere else won't change that fact. Instead of complaining about what you can't do in this gen, put your energy into thinking about what you can do with what we have.

Let's keep the conversation to speculations and avoid all the whining.
 
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So the new fossils get moves called "Fisheous Rend" and "Bolt Beak" that are water and electric respectively.

These moves are 85 BP, but double to 170 BP if the user moves first in the turn. That's 10 BP short of V-create power, and these pokemon have around the same attack as Victini.

As Slush Rushers, Arcovish and Arctozolt got a LOT more threatening.
 
So the new fossils get moves called "Fisheous Rend" and "Bolt Beak" that are water and electric respectively.

These moves are 85 BP, but double to 170 BP if the user moves first in the turn. That's 10 BP short of V-create power, and these pokemon have around the same attack as Victini.

As Slush Rushers, Arcovish and Arctozolt got a LOT more threatening.
Since they are fossils, however, we will likely have to wait until GF releases them with their hidden ability Slush Rush (or sand rush for the other two)
 
How is grass looking so far? We got a bunch of interesting tools in appltun, earth power + weather ball venusaur, uturn grassy terrain rillaboom

We also do keep a bunch of good mons such as ferrothorn and decidueye, celebi, whimsicott

Unfort we lose mega venusaur, cradily and tapu bulu which were pretty important

Anyone willing to do a speculative analysis for it?
 
No idea how Grass wil far in this gen, but for better or for worse, here are some Pkm to keep in mind:


Ferrothorn - as always, it sets entry hazards and has good defensive typing to survive Bug, Poison, Flying, and Ice moves. The lack of bulky Grass Pkm means this is one of your few options to switch into said moves. I think Ferrothorn will have lots of work to do.

Appletun - Thick Fat will probably be its most popular since it would actually resist Fire and "only" be 2x weak to Ice. The fact it learns Recover and
Leech Seed could make it a very annoying Pkm that is hard to take down.

Ludicolo - if you're going to use dynamax/gigamax, it will likely be this Pkm since Water hits a lot of Pkm for neutral damage. Also, with water moves setting up rain, it will outspeed most Pkm and further boost the power of its water moves. Life Orb is probably mandatory on this set to OHKO it normally wouldn't, I think.

Flappletun - with Hustle, it's actually stronger than Mega Rayquaza but it's relatively slow. It's also unreliable due to accuracy issues, but it can wallbreak with a Choice Band set. It could also make use of Ripen. If it works as I think, this should immediately activate a Berry and double its effect. Salac Berry could double its speed, or you could make use of Liechi Berry to double your attack and Dragon Dance to outspeed almost any relevant non boosted Pkm. Either way, if it's going to be used, then only as a terrifying wallbreaker with Hustle + Choice Band or a lategame sweeper with Ripen.

Dhelmise - so long as we don't have access to Decidueye, it's probably your best spinner if you need one. (Part 1 of ? due to weird format problems )
 
How is grass looking so far? We got a bunch of interesting tools in appltun, earth power + weather ball venusaur, uturn grassy terrain rillaboom

We also do keep a bunch of good mons such as ferrothorn and decidueye, celebi, whimsicott

Unfort we lose mega venusaur, cradily and tapu bulu which were pretty important

Anyone willing to do a speculative analysis for it?
Not a grass player myself so I can't provide a ton of analysis like some might, but at the surface, water and ground likely being top tier will certainly help. Meanwhile, flying, bug and fire all look pretty bad. I think you can make up for Bulu and Cradilly being gone with the new mons you mentioned. This alone probably helps grass be around middle tier.
 
Rillaboom - it's quite similar to Tapu Bulu. The moment we have access to its Grassy Surge, Grass would have another nice wallbreaker to support its team. I'm not sure if having access to Stomping Tantrum or Earthquake ( if you want to use its standard ability) and Knock Off is enough to make it viable. I don't think so, since it's not fast and strong enough to outspeed and OHKO Fire Pkm.

Whimsicott - amazing support movepool and access to U-Turn, Memento, Tailwind and Moonblast could actually have a nice niche. It can deal with slower dragon Pkm with an offensive set, notably Hydreigon and Kommo-o, and weaken opposing Pkm with Memento to support your dynamax/gigamax of your choice.

Abomasnow - while having access to Aurora Veil and taking neutral damage from Ice moves is nice, I'm not sure if it's enough to justify a place in your team since it has so many weaknesses and doesn't hit strong enough. Also, Hail will hurt your team. Maybe, I can see it as a lead Pkm to set up Double Screens, but that's it, i think. Did I mention it now learns Earth Power?

Roserade - being a Poison Pkm and having decent speed could make it somewhat useful as a scarf dynamax Pkm since Poison moves will increase your SpA, but it's not a good offensive type. If you can remove some Pkm that can withstand its moves, it might be something to reconsider.

Then, there's Rotom. Loss of Hidden Power hurts, but it might be able to pull off a terrifying spec dynamax lategame sweeper set, which would actually benefit from Whimsicott's Tailwind. I can see it spamming dynamax Electric moves, which sets up Electric Terrain to make it even more terrifying. That's it, i think.
 
grass is getting that cool dragon apple mon, that type will be cool by virtue of that alone. thick fat + dragon typing to actually resist fire moves. it has leech seed and recover too
 
as if normal didn't suck enough already
IIRC Normal was actually really good during USUM.
Snorlax, Greedent, Type: Null, Bewear
no utilites
Diggersby has spikes and the birds can Defog, but yeah other than that you're kinda boned.
no special sweepers
Drampa, Heliolisk, Indeedee-M
and no fast physical sweepers.
Cinccino, Hoennian Linoone, and Obstagoon isn't that slow.
i imagine my team of six wooloo will win many a battle out of sheer pity
This is a joke, right?
you realize all this could be solved by not screwing over people for no reason, right?
At least try to make use out of the available mons before complaining like this.
 
So the new fossils get moves called "Fisheous Rend" and "Bolt Beak" that are water and electric respectively.

These moves are 85 BP, but double to 170 BP if the user moves first in the turn. That's 10 BP short of V-create power, and these pokemon have around the same attack as Victini.

As Slush Rushers, Arcovish and Arctozolt got a LOT more threatening.
What’s up guys I’m back(just like ice). I’m so hype for ice this gen. Viable slush rushers, Steel+Fighting+Fire nerf until terrak gets back, Darm+Dynamax Kyub+Rime as wall breakers, Ava+Alolatails+Wider veil allocation, Gigantamax Lapras. This is the first time in all of my years as an ice main that I might be able to viably use almost entirely different teams(more than ~8 useful mons).
 
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