click on the tier list if u wanna make ur own
ive played this meta in two seperate tours now with good records in both, and TBH i think this meta is in a lot of a better spot and i really wouldn't mind doing no further action on this tier. i used to be into sm lc for a good bit of time (i still like it and think its a pretty fun tier on occasion!) and i think that this meta is what id probably describe as a more like balanced edition of the tier even if sm has a few things i notably like (z moves. fuck hidden power). point mainly being that i find this tier being very interactive to play and it is very similar in sm to that regard but changes like no hidden power we see in swsh make this a very balanced tier. one of my complaints with no vull swsh was basically where games are usually just decided in the builder, or ur forced into a snoozefest 6 mirror thats both not fun to play, not a lot of room for creativity, and i dunno it just sucked. i think one of the main issues with vull was that its like a very centralizing force in the meta, but i don't really view it as any different than a mon like foo in the old one. besides that, i don't really find vull broken or hard to play against. it really isnt able to come in on a lot unpunished, and there are still usable checks to it if you need a mon to sponge a hit or two from it. another massive complaint from me in old swsh was due to the amount of like.. good mons i guess in general and i feel like with vull around there are a lot more good mons around due to the trends it does force and we see a lot more versatility in swsh lc than we have seen in a VERY VERY VERY long time. now to stop my blurb of random yapping i wanted to talk about a few mons anyways. mostly mons that have at least been in contention of possibly being broken through either my opinion or just stuff the public in general has said, or some guys i think we could look into unbanning.
I basically already talked about her in the previous paragraph but I don't find her broken at all and I think the interactions and building vull requires is very healthy as you really don't have to dedicate a lot to it to begin with, or that its not this mystical force you can get in easily and be able to just instantly force a ko or get a ton of progress with. unbanning this strictly was a good thing as far as im concerned, np sets and etc aren't really broken either.
This guy definently wouldn't be broken in this current meta with IMO timburr being the better choice of a fighting type into what this meta demands. it would be a nice boost to HO which i don't think would be a bad thing and i think this thing is great at nerfing stuff like diglett into being forced to run evio. id say it'd be a net gain for the meta but again i think current meta is good and just that magby might make it better
I also find porygon very clearly not broken. I think its a lot more up for discussion than like Vullaby especially due to this things insane cheese factor but I find pory to be more of an on paper mon than an in-game mon. In theory vull pressures the shit out of your pawniard and after that pory just clicks buttons but theres a lot of what id just say as natural stops to it. spdef trapinch traps pory easily, frill is a decent option for checking it, options like spdef mareanie are IMO just good anyways, rise of timburr hurts pory, even on opp pory u can just run spdef to stop pory from getting its own defense boost. i encourage people to adapt in their building if the take is that it is just broken. if you wanna argue against it just bc tri attack is stupid be my guest but i would definently be voting no ban on this thing
I do think this guy is broken and I would vote ban on it in a heartbeat though. If you don't have Diglett you are really just playing a guessing game with this mon, and it is incredibly good at just picking and choosing its counters. Like yeah pawniard can switch in on psychic but it can also just die to a fighting type move from life orb abra. IMO this thing just leads to stuff like mu fishing for no diglett. you could be like yea pinch still traps this even if you drop diglett but sets like life orb protect are still good and options like energy ball are excellent. i think this thing just leads to stupid mu fishing and would love to see it gone. even if thats not on the table I think the meta would be good though.
haven't really thought about this but I think it would be a fun add (IF ABRA GOT BANNED, I DONT WANNA DEAL WITH GASTBRA WITH NO PURSUIT). 18 speed and its offenses are excellent, but i dunno if it'd be broken. maybe it would be restricting? not entirely sure but im not sure it would be broken either and we saw how much unbanning vull improved the meta basically wondering if gastly could have a similar result
both webs and scraggy would very clearly be broken IMO. very least restricting but i dont think they would bring smth good into the tier and genuinely think smth like webs could threaten the very balance of the tier. only including bc i think theres been some discussion in lc cord about them
even besides that all of that, i think it's time we get our resources updated for the current meta now that we've had plenty of time to be able to play it. tagging people i know are actively involved with the tier in hopes of seeing their vrs / tier lists / whtever. thanks in advance!
Collette Simbo LilyAC Kingler Acehunter1 Mister Magnus Wesleyy kythr ninjadog MOHAMEDALL tazz Elfuseon bleahey Stecolomaxx Éric CMDoge Mendeez Quinn Hockey1
posting about lc and feeling like im not complaining the entire time was awesome. great job unbanning vullaby bros
ive played this meta in two seperate tours now with good records in both, and TBH i think this meta is in a lot of a better spot and i really wouldn't mind doing no further action on this tier. i used to be into sm lc for a good bit of time (i still like it and think its a pretty fun tier on occasion!) and i think that this meta is what id probably describe as a more like balanced edition of the tier even if sm has a few things i notably like (z moves. fuck hidden power). point mainly being that i find this tier being very interactive to play and it is very similar in sm to that regard but changes like no hidden power we see in swsh make this a very balanced tier. one of my complaints with no vull swsh was basically where games are usually just decided in the builder, or ur forced into a snoozefest 6 mirror thats both not fun to play, not a lot of room for creativity, and i dunno it just sucked. i think one of the main issues with vull was that its like a very centralizing force in the meta, but i don't really view it as any different than a mon like foo in the old one. besides that, i don't really find vull broken or hard to play against. it really isnt able to come in on a lot unpunished, and there are still usable checks to it if you need a mon to sponge a hit or two from it. another massive complaint from me in old swsh was due to the amount of like.. good mons i guess in general and i feel like with vull around there are a lot more good mons around due to the trends it does force and we see a lot more versatility in swsh lc than we have seen in a VERY VERY VERY long time. now to stop my blurb of random yapping i wanted to talk about a few mons anyways. mostly mons that have at least been in contention of possibly being broken through either my opinion or just stuff the public in general has said, or some guys i think we could look into unbanning.
I basically already talked about her in the previous paragraph but I don't find her broken at all and I think the interactions and building vull requires is very healthy as you really don't have to dedicate a lot to it to begin with, or that its not this mystical force you can get in easily and be able to just instantly force a ko or get a ton of progress with. unbanning this strictly was a good thing as far as im concerned, np sets and etc aren't really broken either.
This guy definently wouldn't be broken in this current meta with IMO timburr being the better choice of a fighting type into what this meta demands. it would be a nice boost to HO which i don't think would be a bad thing and i think this thing is great at nerfing stuff like diglett into being forced to run evio. id say it'd be a net gain for the meta but again i think current meta is good and just that magby might make it better
I also find porygon very clearly not broken. I think its a lot more up for discussion than like Vullaby especially due to this things insane cheese factor but I find pory to be more of an on paper mon than an in-game mon. In theory vull pressures the shit out of your pawniard and after that pory just clicks buttons but theres a lot of what id just say as natural stops to it. spdef trapinch traps pory easily, frill is a decent option for checking it, options like spdef mareanie are IMO just good anyways, rise of timburr hurts pory, even on opp pory u can just run spdef to stop pory from getting its own defense boost. i encourage people to adapt in their building if the take is that it is just broken. if you wanna argue against it just bc tri attack is stupid be my guest but i would definently be voting no ban on this thing
I do think this guy is broken and I would vote ban on it in a heartbeat though. If you don't have Diglett you are really just playing a guessing game with this mon, and it is incredibly good at just picking and choosing its counters. Like yeah pawniard can switch in on psychic but it can also just die to a fighting type move from life orb abra. IMO this thing just leads to stuff like mu fishing for no diglett. you could be like yea pinch still traps this even if you drop diglett but sets like life orb protect are still good and options like energy ball are excellent. i think this thing just leads to stupid mu fishing and would love to see it gone. even if thats not on the table I think the meta would be good though.
haven't really thought about this but I think it would be a fun add (IF ABRA GOT BANNED, I DONT WANNA DEAL WITH GASTBRA WITH NO PURSUIT). 18 speed and its offenses are excellent, but i dunno if it'd be broken. maybe it would be restricting? not entirely sure but im not sure it would be broken either and we saw how much unbanning vull improved the meta basically wondering if gastly could have a similar result
both webs and scraggy would very clearly be broken IMO. very least restricting but i dont think they would bring smth good into the tier and genuinely think smth like webs could threaten the very balance of the tier. only including bc i think theres been some discussion in lc cord about them
even besides that all of that, i think it's time we get our resources updated for the current meta now that we've had plenty of time to be able to play it. tagging people i know are actively involved with the tier in hopes of seeing their vrs / tier lists / whtever. thanks in advance!
Collette Simbo LilyAC Kingler Acehunter1 Mister Magnus Wesleyy kythr ninjadog MOHAMEDALL tazz Elfuseon bleahey Stecolomaxx Éric CMDoge Mendeez Quinn Hockey1
posting about lc and feeling like im not complaining the entire time was awesome. great job unbanning vullaby bros
I don't understand this mon right now. Ever since we discovered Omanyte, which is basically an Onix that beats the trappers, I fail to see why would you add an Onix to your team, and what does it even do over Omanyte. It doesn't knock, doesn't spike, is worse into Diglett, worse into Trapinch, worse into Mienfoo, worse into Timburr, worse into defensive Ponyta, worse into Grookey, worse into Foongus, and it beats nothing that Omanyte doesn't already. It even is worse into Vullaby since you can miss Rock Blast LOL I could see DD sets being useful still but I don't think that has really been tried yet.
this might be very controversial, but I think Porygon sucks. Hear me out: it is a fast special attacker that beats the poisons and loses to the steels. Sounds familiar? Yes, that is Abra. The things that Porygon usually has over Abra are not being able to get trapped, speed control sweeping potential. However, I think that in our current metagame, this doesn't hold up at all. We use so many spreads to avoid boosting Porygon's special attack that Porygon ends up becoming a liability. It is not better at breaking than Abra, it needs much more prediction, it doesn't add anything defensively to your team, loses to Mach Punch and it gets trapped. Every team that uses Porygon I think could be improved by just slotting an Abra, and teams using both Abra and Porygon I think have too many defensive holes for little offensive reward, which you could get better by using Ponyta-Galar + Abra, for example.
I think nothing has changed regarding Foongus' viability since unbanning Vullaby. I don't know why we used it back when Vull was still legal, and I don't know why do people still use it now. Foongus is basically a Koffing that invites Ferroseed for a free spike. The upsides over Koffing? You tell me, I can't think of any. It loses to Vullaby, it loses to Timburr, it loses to Mienfoo/Grookey + Koffing, it loses to Ponyta. Seriously, what does this beat to make it deserve a spot over Koffing? I've used it in LPL finals, just because I needed the best Grookey answer there is, and I needed to build my team accordingly (spamming fire moves on my psychic types) and with a weird spread (see below, in "cool sets") to make it work. It has a slight niche, but I think its usage is way too high for how good it actually is.
The people are really down on Mienfoo currently. Mach Punch is the most useful it's ever been, Abra is incredibly strong and Vullaby exists. However, I think it has some underexplored sets/roles that, coupled with the most common max defense foo put it still at the top of the metagame. I think mixing offensive and defensive Mienfoos, depending on your teams, is incredibly beneficial. Offensive Mienfoo sets still do typical pivot stuff while threatening a lot more Pokémon than usual, like killing Vullaby after rocks. Moreover, Choice Scarf Mienfoo is incredibly threatening as a late game cleaner in this metagame lacking ghost types, and there are even some teams that can disguise it and not make it as obvious as when you're using Timburr + scarf Mienfoo. I think there is still a lot of exploration to be done regarding Mienfoo sets and spreads, and so I think it is still a top mon.
is better than abra tbh
A --> S
A+ --> A
A+ --> A
A+ --> A-
A --> A-
A --> A+
A- --> B+
A- --> B+
B --> C
B+ --> A-
B --> B+
B --> C
B- --> C
C --> B
B- --> C
UR --> D (new rank!)
UR --> B-