Resource SS NU Viability Ranking Thread [DLC1 Archive]

[Rabia]

SS NU VIABILITY RANKING THREAD

art by lyd | VR OP credit goes to PK Gaming | thread run by NU forum moderators​

Welcome to the official SS NU Viability Rankings thread. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in NU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each NU Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a tier list for the entire metagame, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense, defense, and supportive presences in the metagame within this thread. For example, Eldegoss can be ranked in the A tier as a supportive presence, Sawk can be ranked in the A as an offensive presence, and Stunfisk-Galar can be ranked in the A tier as a defensive presence. While these three examples can also be found in the initial rankings, the viability of Pokemon and their roles within the metagame can and will change over time, so we will be sure to keep an open mind to this as well and adjust the thread accordingly during each update.

Finally, there will be a council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of Pokemon. Depending on how the metagame is developing, we could update the thread every couple of weeks or every month+. Please note that your posts still very much matter and will be factored in to what we discuss and the discussions themselves. This thread is nothing without the posters and every informed opinion that is shared is considered a valuable contribution in my eyes, so do not hesitate to post if you know the metagame well and understand the forum rules. The council will consist of the following users:

• Davon
• Eternally
• Finchinator
• Kiyo
• quziel
• Rabia
• Realistic Waters
• rozes
• Sjneider

SS NU Ranking Tier List

(in alphabetical order)

NEW:

Golbat
some other shitty NFEs

S Rank:

S Rank

Escavalier
Gallade
Mudsdale

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Jellicent
Ninjask
Ribombee
Weezing

A Rank

Cofagrigus
Duraludon
Rapidash
Rotom

A- Rank

Clefairy
Cramorant
Ferroseed
Garbodor
Miltank
Ninetales
Persian-Alola
Silvally-Ghost
Silvally-Steel
Whimsicott
Wishiwashi

B Rank:

B+ Rank

Clawitzer
Gastrodon
Gurdurr
Magneton
Rotom-Fan
Silvally-Dragon
Stunfisk-Galar
Trevenant
Vanilluxe

B Rank

Kingler
Lanturn
Piloswine
Sandslash-Alola
Togedemaru

B- Rank

Aromatisse
Galvantula
Silvally-Dark

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Accelgor
Appletun
Froslass
Gourgeist-Small
Poliwrath
Quagsire
Rhydon
Skuntank
Thievul

C Rank

Eldegoss
Frosmoth
Kangaskhan
Sableye
Sawk
Silvally-Poison
Silvally-Water
Swoobat
Thwackey

---

Rules - Updated as of 4/5/2020

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted. Expand on your opinion with actual analysis showing understanding of the metagame and perhaps bringing a unique perspective to the conversation.
• Absolutely no flaming, personal attacks, or general idiocy will be tolerated. Part of this is under moderator discretion and please know that posting in this thread is a privilege, not a right. You'll get warned initially if it is not something overly malicious, but harsher punishments can and will come with repeated behavior or severe offenses.
• Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. There needs to be more substance than just this. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
• When nominating a Pokemon to move from one rank to another, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse. I can assure you that the VR Council already knows the obvious qualities and we are far more interested in understanding why you believe it has increased or decreased in viability.
• Unrelated discussion such as talk of (potential) suspects and unproductive one liners that do not greatly contribute to discussion will be deleted. If this becomes a recurring issue for any particular user, then it could lead to an infraction. If you are unsure where to post something, feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord. Moreover, if you have a general question, then odds are it belongs in the SQSA, not here.
• Being NU by usage alone does not guarantee a ranking. We touched on usage not being the sole reason behind viability of anything before, but this is very true here as a lot of things accumulate ladder usage despite not being the best option. Do not mistake the correlation between usage and viability as stronger than it actually is. If you have any further questions about this, please start a conversation with me on here or discord instead of posting it in this thread.
• When new Pokemon, items, abilities, and/or anything else relevant to the NU metagame are released, please hold off on discussing the ranking of the new Pokemon or the rankings of Pokemon that are impacted by these developments until there is approval to discuss the matter by an NU Moderator in this thread.
• Failure to follow these rules after warning(s) will result in an infraction or possibly a ban depending on the severity of the offenses.
• If you are nominating a Pokemon to be ranked (meaning it was previously unranked), then you need to provide replays of it being used in the metagame and you also should go out of your way to be as thorough as possible in explaining why it has a niche in the metagame (Example of GOOD UR Nomination from the OU thread) -- a vast majority of nominations have been of poor quality historically and we reserve the right to revoke nomination privileges from thread posters at any point in time. If you are in doubt, then feel free to start a conversation with me on here or discord prior to nominating a Pokemon and I will give you honest feedback on the post.

Blacklisted Pokemon: All posts regarding these Pokemon will be deleted (or nominations of these Pokemon will be removed)

None so far. Don't give one of us a reason to add Pokemon here!

It should go without saying, but please be respectful when engaging with others' opinions here. Viability is, ultimately, subjective, and people will not always feel the same as you do about how good something is. Try to understand where people are coming from when they make a claim you disagree with, and seek thoughtful discourse when appropriate. If you're new, it's probably best to not post for a while until you understand proper posting etiquette and the metagame at large. Additionally, keep in mind that this thread cannot be moderated at all hours because there are a limited number of people to do so and we're not present 24/7. Happy posting!

 

[Rabia]

Potential discussion points:

-> higher: Ninjask has been a force in ladder and tournament play for quite some time now, with users feeling like it defines the metagame more than any other Pokemon. Should this be reflected on the VR? Or are Ninjask's shortcomings still necessary to reflect?

-> lower: Cofagrigus used to be at the pinnacle of NU, but that is very clearly no longer the case. Does the VR accurately reflect its fall from grace? Or has Cofagrigus gotten even worse than its current ranking implies?

-> lower: Whimsicott was known last generation for compressing an awful lot of traits into one teamslot. This generation, it struggles with role compression to a great degree and is not exactly a premier wallbreaker. Do these factors in addition to its competition with Ribombee merit a lower ranking?

 

[N_Mareanie]

For people who want to see all changes compared to last Viability Ranking

Drops

S --> A
A+ --> A

A+ --> B+
A+ --> B
(Small) A+ --> B-
A+ --> B-

A+ --> B-
A --> A-
A --> A-
A --> B+
A --> B
A --> B
A- --> B+
A- --> B+
A- --> B-
A- --> C
A- --> C
A- --> C
A- --> Unranked
B+ --> B-
B+ --> C+

B+ --> C+
B+ --> C
B+ --> C
B+ --> C
B+ --> C

B+ --> C
B+ --> C
B --> B-
B --> Unranked
B --> Unranked
B --> Unranked
B- --> Unranked
B- --> Unranked
B- --> Unranked
C+ --> C
C+ --> C
C+ --> Unranked
C+ --> Unranked
C+ --> Unranked
C+ --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked
C --> Unranked

C --> Unranked

Rises

--> S
--> S
--> A+
--> A+
--> A+
--> A
--> A-
--> A-
--> A-
--> B+
--> B+
--> B
--> B
--> B-
--> B-
--> B-
--> C+
--> C
--> C
--> C
B+ --> A-
B --> A

B --> A-

So yeah, only Weezing, Ferroseed, Rapidash, Gurdurr, Togedemaru & Quagsire are the only ones who stayed in their original ranking lmao

 

[Pokeslice]

Overall, I really like this viability ranking (props to the council), although there are definitely some mons that deserve a higher/lower spot on the list.

Here are 10 mons I thought should move around rank wise:

Mudsdale A+ --> S Right now, there's no better rocker in the tier, by a wide margin. Part of what makes it's so good is its huge bulk, the ability to run a multitude of different sets consistently (Defensive, Spdef, or even Choice Band), and the countless mons it both walls and can get up rocks on. Stamina is a beautiful ability, letting it get bulkier and bulkier as time goes on, and with the new S tier mon Escavalier dropping down here, it's become one of our premier answers. Unlike other hazard setters, such as Miltank or Stunfisk lets say, there's almost nothing that can really take advantage of Muds. Two main switchins in Weezing or Rotom forms , who can take advantage of their ground immunities, can be beaten down by smack down variants. What really pushes this mon over the edge for me from A+ to S is how easy it is to throw on a team. In my experience, majority of the time you're better off running Mudsdale on your squad over another rocker (also proven by it's usage last month, highest of any dedicated rocker).

Ninetales A- --> A Looking at the A- section of the list, Ninetales stands out to me as rated just too low, being a head above the other mons there. Although not the monster it was when it first dropped and we were all unprepared, it's still something that will always put in huge work in any game. At first glance, 81 special attack seems pretty weak, but with Nasty Plot, near perfect coverage, a great speed tier in base 100, and plenty of opportunities to set up, it can be really hard to truly wall. Even main switchins, such as Spdef Mudsdale or Miltank, don't appreciate taking a boosted scorching sands or energy ball. With the addition of boots this generation, it's longevity has only gotten way higher, letting it consistently set up or switch into main metagame threats like Ribombee or the numerous steel type mons running around right now. With the fall of Escavalier this shift, it's only gotten another victim and gives us an offensive answer to that behemoth, while the banning of Sneasel helped eliminate one of the few faster mons who can seriously threaten it. In my opinions, these traits make it a great partner for the fairies or dragons, a scary sweeper, and a legitimate A rank threat.

Steelvally B+ --> A It's crazy to me that this mon was voted down so low. Granted, it isn't the meta defining mon it was for a month or two anymore, but it's bulk, utility, and offensive pressure can't be ignored. Personally, I've only really used the utility set, and it always puts in work. Being able to defog and switch into so many mons because of it's pure steel typing and amazing speed tier is huge, all while supporting it's team with parting shot or u-turn support, chipping or weakening mon's for the rest of the squad to come in safely. There's also the underutilized and explored work up, mixed sets. I feel that, in this metagame, those can start seeing a legitimate niche to hit harder and faster. Grass Pledge can hit stuff like Mudsdale or Jelly, while multi-attack or flash cannon gives it a strong stab, complimented by flamethrower for steels and grass types. The rise of Escavalier hurts Steelvally as the main steel type mon in the tier, but, since they fill different roles and Escav is afraid of flamethrower or flame charge, it shouldn't hurt it so much as to drop it to B+. The loss of a strong Low Kick from Sneasel definitely helps it's stock too, giving it one less threat to take it out. All in all, it feels almost tragic to clump Steelvally in with the B+ mons and it should move up. Even A- would be understandable.

Rhydon B --> C+ I really hate this mon right now. Really, really hate it. There are significantly better rockers and offensive tanks (imo pilo fulfills both these rolls+get's ice shard) and it's terrible speed means that, to run a true offensive variant, you have to use jolly Rhydon, and you're stilll slower than everything. With so many mon's that threaten it or do it's job, but better, in the tier, like Gallade, Escavalier, Mudsdale, trick/switcheroo, any special breaker, etc, it's almost unviable in my mind. The drop of Sneasel and the loss of Decidueye do make it way better, I'll give it that, but B is still too high. It belongs with the fringe viable mons like Quag or Silvally-P down in C+, or at least B-.

Cramorant B- --> B/B+ This mon has to be one of the most annoying to face in the game. With an amazing speed tier and an even better ability in Gulp Missile, Cramorant can easily wear down or paralyze teams while walling metagame threats like Ninetales or Utility Rapidash with ease. It also acts as one of the few defoggers, which is extremely valuable, and, in conjunction with roost and heavy duty boots, it's consistent and threatening. Although Escavalier joining the tier makes Cramorant worse, it also acts as a really good partner for the S rank mon, checking so many of it's main threats like Tales, Muds, and even Gallades with defensive investment. B- with the more niche picks is too low. I've found Cramorant to be a legit, anti-meta pick worthy of a way higher rank.

Aromatisse B- --> B With the rise of Escavalier, fairy types, especially passive, slow ones like Aroma, just become sitting ducks, but this shift, something else also happened. We saw a hugeee rise in Gallade usage, warranting itself a spot in the S rank. To me, that's part of where Aroma shines. Besides Sableye (who I'll touch on later), Aromatisse is probably the best Gallade counter in the game, especially for scarf variants, taking almost nothing from CC and a small amount from Zen or Psycho Cut. It also provides great cleric support with access to wish and aromatherapy, helping both defensive walls and offensive threats stay healthy. Although not having teleport or magic guard puts it way below clefairy as a cleric, I think as a check to Gallade, not relying on eviolite and keeping lefties puts it above clef sometimes. I feel B- is for the more niche picks, and I've found that Aroma is a great partner and anything but. I would even argue it should be higher, topping at B+.

Appletun C+ --> B My favorite addition from Gen 8, Appletun is severely underrated here and well deserving of a higher rank on the list. Awesome design aside, this mon before the last shift was already rising as a fantastic wall, absolutely destroying the threatening Ninetales with minimal investment. It also served as a great answer to Rapidash and Mudsdale, both top tier threats right now. The pie has a fantastic moveset suited for a wall, with powerful moves like Apple Acid and Recover/Leech Seed for steady, consistent recovery. The ability Thick Fat makes it even bulkier, keeping it alive and annoying all game long. Specs/more offensive sets could have a steady rise too, with the tier semi-desperate for a strong grass type breaker with Decidueye now gone (not counting Aboma because that thing folds to a light breeze). With the October shifts, we saw three main things that directly affected Apple's ranking. First off, Sneasel left, removing Apple's biggest opponent, but at the same time, it also brought down Escavalier, another terrifying mon for Appletun to deal with. It also took away Decidueye, opening up a potential niche for specs variants, which I think could be super cool. This mon feels unexplored and a great anti-meta pick, well deserving in, in my opinion, to be significantly higher.

Froslass C+ --> B With Sneasel gone and no more Decidueye shadow sneaks, there's a huge hole left over for physical ice types and ghosts, and although CB Froslass puts in work, the set I've been running have been Specs or as a utility mon, and here's where I feel Froslass is supremely underrated and explored, the most by far on this list. My favorite team right now is based around Spex Hex Froslass which, with it's great speed tier and STAB Hex's, you're able to 2HKO almost the entire tier, sometimes even straight up KOing, unless you're named Miltank. And even Miltank isn't perfect at times, getting crippled by a tricked Specs. Even many of the steels, who can be huge problems for Froslass, are 2 or 3HKOed by specs Shadow Ball or Hex, making it a potentially great late game cleaner after some chip. It also functions as a fantastic and underrated suicide lead, with access to moves like taunt, spikes, and destiny bond, giving it the ability to beat other popular leads like Duraludon or even Accelgor. Taunt leads me to what I believe to be an extremely underutilized set - Boots Froslass. Using taunt, Froslass beats it's most common wall in Miltank, taking advantage of the cow to set up spikes or pass wisp's, toxic's, and t waves to set up a hex spam later. Although slightly weaker than Rotom and worse offensively, I feel like it can really start putting in work with it's utility set, just like it's better ghost brother. I know that Froslass can be hard to get in at times and is in no way a meta defining mon, but I feel that it's extremely unexplored and deserves at least a B rank, marking it viable, but slightly niche. Oh, and Cursed Body is a great ability.

Sableye C --> B- Sableye really only has one niche, beating Gallade HARD, and it does this perfectly. It's immune to both STABs and doesn't really care about Knock Off, all while spreading status and knocks of it's own and being annoying to kill. Don't get me wrong, this mon is still pretty bad, but now with Sneasel gone, it can only get better. Now, effectively the only dark type in the tier is Darkvally, a mon you never see anymore, meaning Sableye's Prankster shenanigans just got way better. I don't have strong feeling's on this mon, but C feels too low. Being able to cripple every physical attacker while also being by far the best S tier mon counter in the tier is not something to scoff at. B- feels like a better spot.

Thievul C -->B For my last mon, I had to pick Thievul. This mon is criminally underrated right now, hitting hard and fast enough, tearing holes through teams while supporting teammates with parting shot. At first, I thought this mon was limited to an unburden NP set, but currently, I've run specs. Specs Stakeout on switch's hits EXTREMELY hard, 2HKOing anything not a fairy with Dark Pulse while Psychic does 70% to clef and aroma. It isn't difficult to force stuff out either, as it OHKO's Cofa's and Jellicent's, forcing them to switch or open up for a multitude of mons that want them gone. It has the special bulk to come in on a lot, too, making switches into the ghost's in the tier almost free. With Sneasel and Decidueye gone, there's a wide opening for both dark's and ghost's to deal with the extremely powerful ghost's in the tier, being stuff like Rotom, Jelly, or Cofa, and Thievul, although fringe right now, has what it takes to be really good. Once ladder starts to come around, I feel this mon, just like with Froslass earlier, being a B or even B+ tier mon.

Let me know your thoughts on what I said here. I'd love feedback and discussion on these potential changes or mons! Sorry if this was too long, I had a lot of thoughts :D

 

[Corthius]

First time ever giving my thoughts on a VR-ranking so don't be afraid of letting me know what I can improve!

Anyway, lets get started:

A- to B or lower
I honestly don't see much reason to use clefairy at the moment and it doesn't fulfill the expectations of an A- ranked pokemon compared to the other pokemon in that tier. Looking at the high ranked pokemon (from S - B) there really isn't much Clefairy can abuse/ switch into. There are just too many pokemon that can abuse it's passivity + Fairy typing like Ninetales, Silvally-Steel, Escavalier and Weezing. Sure most of the mentioned pokemon dont like the fact that they might have to tank a Knock Off but giving a threat like Escavalier or Ninetales an opportunity to set up can end up way worse for the Clefairy user. For a clearic set I'd rather use Aromatisse, which isn't as prone against Knock Off and passes bigger wishes.
Compared to the other A- ranked pokemon, Clefairy clearly stands out to be one of the worst in the current meta game and should drop a rank.

A to A+
For some community members this might feel like a stretch because they think Ninjask isn't overpowered/as good as I might see it. While I don't want to start any argument about Ninjask being broken or not, I do want to say that I think, in comparison with the other A ranked pokemon and comparing it with Ribombee at A+ rank, Ninjask should definitely be ranked higher. With how many other pokemon currently chipping steel types (like Alolan Sandslash, Vanilluxe, all of the fairies, weezing) which are the best counter play to Ninjask , it is fairly easy for Ninjask to clean up in the end game especially when considering that none of the Steel types have reliable recovery (not counting any RestTalk). Ninjask also has the benefit of abusing Gallade, one of the best pokemon in the tier after that got a kill. The aspect of being literally the fastes pokemon in the tier and being theoretically able to revengekill every pokemon after some chip is amazing and shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[roxie]

Clefairy just seems very passive at the moment, and is not an amazing switchin to things as its item gets removed, it becomes very weak. Aromatisse is is a way better option and serves a way better role in terms of cleric over Clefairy. HDB/Leftovers and natural bulk is better than Eviolite consistency.
Aromatisse B- -> B/A-
Clefairy A- -> B-/B

A little surprised that this didn't rise a little as Sneasel ban puts Gourgeist Small in an amazing spot. PU is known for running itemless Pokemon like Drifblim, but idt there is a lot running itemless items for Poltergeist and Choice Band punches holes in so many teams.

G-Small

Gourgeist-Small @ Choice Band
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Shadow Sneak
- Trick

Liking this set a lot rn, Gourgeist Small B- -> B.

I do feel like Ferroseed is very passive rn, its nice utility but so is Alolan Sandslash, Silvally-S, Duraludon, Escavalier, in fact better. Looking at other mons in that area like Ninetales, Miltank, A-Slash, i find this incomparable and should drop. A- -> B+/B.

A- -> A/A+. I can think of so many mons this pairs and synergizes with, Escavalier, S-Steel, Sandslash-A, Whimsicott, Mudsdale, Thwackey, Gourgeist, Ribombee, Vanilluxe and so much more. Steel-types are very common and its way better than the ranks that are A-, Ferroseed/Miltank/Clef? This is NU's best Fire-type SpA and I find it very splashable on so many teams despite Drought being banned

 

[Mariannabelle]

All right, results obtained, time to sing praises yet again. The team I used has two mons that I believe are rated too low for what they can do:

B- -> B/B+ : I've gained a new respect for Cramorant, who I had dodged many times before. Cramorant has a lot of cool stuff going for it. DEF sets have a pretty good matchup against the must-prepare-for Escavalier (among other things) while still being an excellent check to Ninetales (even without beefing up SPD). It Defogs, it has good dual STABS and Gulp Missile is one of the most goddamn irritating things to deal with, ever. Gulp Missile forces opponents to choose between [take ludicrous chip for the crime of attacking] and [going passive with things like Toxic even if you don't really want to].

C -> B/B+ : Stakeout Specs is insane. Imagine thinking your Ribombee is a switchin and it takes like 70% from Dark Pulse, or just completely evaporating from a Psychic attack. Even the definitive fat fairies, Aromatisse and Clefairy, find themselves taking over half from a coverage move on the switch-in, forcing them to recover immediately while you go to Band Escav or whatever. It kills fat stuff with Specs attacks and kills most would-be switchins even faster. The amount of pressure emanating from this thing in most games is insane. While it doesn't have many coverage options (Psychic, Grass Knot, Burning Jealousy are your options), they get the job done and it even has pivoting options in U-turn and Parting Shot.

A -> A+ : Consistently demolishes unprepared teams and still has a very high-pressure showing against prepared teams

 

[Mariannabelle]

I guess while I'm at it, I'll throw some other nominations around

Weezing: slightly DOWN : It's bait for basically every special wallbreaker and it doesn't have insane pressure to back it up. Still a solid physical wall though.

Eldegoss: DOWN: Probably the saddest mon on the list. It can't even Sleep Powder that much now that Escavalier is everywhere. We have better hazard removal available on Pokemon with better chipping options than Leech Seed. God, this mon is sad.

Poliwrath: UP: Offensive prowess and defensive prowess that's too good to justify being at its current rank. It's an Escav check. It can break bulky waters with its STABS and coverage. I recommend trying out Bulk Up sets; they've gotten pretty good results for me.

Sandaconda: UR: I don't think Glare and Coil are really enough to justify this thing's existence. It's utterly outclassed.

Abomasnow: UP: Hits hard, unpredictable mixed offense, isn't hardwalled by Steels. I recommend trying Boots with 4 attacks, thing is scary.

 

[Davon]

Hello everyone, I love the discussion that’s taken place. I’m going to drop my opinions on the current nominations everyone has brought up.

Ninjask has come a long way since it’s been discovered to be good in NU. I completely understand why some people want it to rise in the VR, or even banned. While I’m sure everybody is aware of HDB Ninjask’s splashability, the itemless acrobatics set is much stronger but depends on its team to keep hazards clear and check the mons it cant’t 2hko. Itemless Ninjask is the most threatening imo because its power lets it 2hko defensive Weezing after an SD, but it also remains unrevengable if you don’t have another mon that can take +2 Acro, thus you lose vs jask. Ice Shard is pretty rare now, so unless people start using Piloswine then Ninjask will remain unchecked in NU. I fully support a rise for Ninjask to A+/S.

Cofagrigus was a big loser in the September drops, and is still not what it used to be. There are a couple reasons Cofagrigus has fallen off; Ribombee can setup on it and the meta favors ghost types faster than Gallade. Cofagrigus isn’t the best fighting switch-in anymore since Gallade can get by it with knock off and its special bulk. The meta has a lot more special attackers now, so mons like Ribombee and Rotom can make Cofagrigus a liability not worth running. Cofagrigus should be A- or even B+.

I don’t have any strong opinions on Whimsicott, but it’s fine in A- imo because it finds itself on more balance teams than its competitor Ribombee. Since Ribombee is also walled by Escavalier, Whimsicott can use its defensive qualities to its advantage. Fast and offensive fairies have lost a lot of value right now because of Escavalier. Since Whimsicott can still hold its defensive utility it has lost a lot less than Ribombee. I can see Whimsicott staying A-, potentially falling to B+, and this is solely because of Escavalier dominating offensive fairies.

As previously mentioned, Ribombee has fallen off offensively because of Escavalier. Every team preps for Ribombee, and there’s a lot of good counterplay so it’s not hard to fit checks to it while building - Ninetales, Escavalier, Garbodor, etc. This should drop to A-, it’s not spamming Moonblast like it used to, and there’s no reason to use it defensively over another fairy.

Clefairy has remained a top pick for the moment. It takes advantage of weak attackers like Mudsdale without Heavy Slam, Gastrodon, Cramorant, Thievul, and Poliwrath. Mixed defense just needs enough physdef to not be 2hko’d by Mudsdale’s EQ, then with its remaining spdef it has a lot of staying power. I highly value Clefairy’s utility over Aromatisse’s wish passing, being able to not be forced out by toxic is very crucial. The set on Clefairy I like to run is 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spdef with Calm nature. Clefairy’s defensive utility brings a lot to the table, so I think it’s fine in A-, but I wouldn’t be opposed to B+ since broken Escavalier is in the tier, but no lower than B+.

Stay where it is, it’s a worse Clefairy. Escavalier’s existence means it shouldn’t rise at all.

Mudsdale is very close to being S, but I think there’s some meta trends not in Mudsdale’s favor. Weezing and Sub NP Rotom are the biggest meta trends I see that hold Mudsdale back. I think Mudsdale is a lot less momentum draining for the opponent when it’s not running protect. If Mudsdale is not running protect then it loses a lot of its survivability. I think Stealth Rock in general has depreciated in value, so there’s less reason to run Mudsdale purely to have a rocker. Since there’s a few meta adaptations I think Mudsdale is influential, but not necessarily a defining mon of the meta like Escavalier and to a lesser extent Gallade - so A+ is a perfect place to put Mudsdale.

Silvally-Steel is the best defogger in the tier. While it can’t really force out the rockers in the tier, it still gets plenty of Defog opportunities due to its resistances. Steel typing is highly valued in this meta defensively, and its offensive capabilities are nothing to scoff at either. I support a rise of Silvally-Steel to A-.

I like Pokeslice’s stance on Cramorant. It is a legitimate anti-meta threat. Compressing defogger and Ninetales check can be great for those teams that have already used their Silvally slot, or even those that haven’t. Surf deters one of the best rockers from freely setting up rocks. The lack of Toxic and special attack sucks for spdef walls like Jellicent, Gastrodon, and clefairy; but preventing Mudsdale from keeping rocks up can definitely be worth it. I’d like for Cramorant to rise to B, or even B+ if there’s enough supporting arguments.

Weezing should absolutely stay where it’s at. It’s the Pokémon that keeps balance together right now, and A is the lowest it should go. Weezing is the Escavalier answer that fairy partners need. The set I’ve been running is Toxic Spikes / Sludge Bomb / Flamethrower / Pain Split with Rocky Helmet. Pain split gives it enough longevity to check Escavalier throughout a match. What makes Weezing so deadly is it’s hax chance with Sludge Bomb. It can get a lot of opportunities to get a poison and further wear down checks like Rotom. To me, Weezing is a balance staple and is easily A rank.

Time for my own discussion point. I think Persian-Alola is still a really solid Pokémon, it’s just overlooked at the moment. It’s one of the best Gallade checks and one of the best physical blanket checks in the tier. It’s really easy to support because you’re bound to put a fairy check on your team anyways. I think Persian-A works best with Rotom / ghost type to check Gallade, or anything that dissuades Gallade from clicking CC. I still think Persian-A is a very solid mon and should rise to B+/A-.

Sandslash-A is not really great ever since Escavalier entered the tier. Sandslash-A has very little offensive presence vs Escavalier, and letting Escavalier in for free is a recipe for disaster. Its utility is really great so I don’t think it should drop too far, B or B+ is fitting imo.

 

[Rabia]

I love Cramorant. I originally voted it for just B- because I wasn't sure if it was just a funny meme Pokemon that occasionally could be annoying with its ability, but I've used it a fair bit over the past week or so and can confidently say now that it's an extremely relevant option. Water / Flying is a really good STAB combination, and NU doesn't really have many solid options to take hits from it. Lanturn nosedived off a cliff in terms of how viable it was, and Wishiwashi doesn't want to take repeated hits because of its reliance on Leftovers for recovery. Additionally, it's just really good at checking a lot of random Pokemon: it can handle Escavalier alright; it walls Ninetales with minimal, if any, special bulk investment; and it beats most Mudsdale. It's proven a lot more consistent than I originally thought it would, and I think it should rise to B+.

I could see a Ninjask rise to A+ on the premise of it being at least as good as Ribombee at pivoting early-game and cleaning late-game. I think both Pokemon are generally really good at taking advantage of the broken boots to draw in checks and pivot out into teammates that handle their switch-ins. I don't really view Ninjask as any better than Ribombee, though; I think both suffer majorly in trying to get by their answers and have about as easy a time as cleaning as the other, maybe Ribombee a bit more than Ninjask even because its checks tend to lack reliable recovery.

I think Thievul could move to C+, although I'm still not sure on its prospects beyond a minor raise. Clefairy matchups feel impossible unless your opponent is a potato, and it fails to make significant progress in games where you don't threaten an OHKO on anything with Dark Pulse; these matchups aren't even uncommon because Thievul hits like a wet paper towel without the Stakeout boost, and it sits at a really awkward Speed tier where it's just a bit slower than it wants to be. It's definitely better than a lot of the niche options in C, though.

Yeah... this Pokemon is pretty awful... The only set I really think that has merit at the moment is Sleep Powder / Giga Drain / Rapid Spin / Aromatherapy; it's pretty good on fat teams that aim to prevent progression through passive damage (like, insanely good), but it doesn't do much else. It doesn't fit so easily onto balance mostly because Spikes are less relevant and there are some rather solid Defogger options (Cramorant, Rotom-S, and Silvally-Steel to name a few) that are much easier to justify. Eldegoss should probably drop into C/C+.

I could see a drop for Alolan Sandslash. It's pretty bad in the sense that it doesn't really beat Duraludon, which I think Steel-types should do at least somewhat consistently. I do like it for all the different roles it can offer (Stealth Rock setter, Spiker, spinner), but beyond its utility versatility I don't think it offers all that much.

These are all very bad Pokemon whose niches aren't significant enough to warrant ranking them still.

I don't understand the hate train for Cofagrigus. It still walls much of the tier by stat checking (as in, its stats are really fucking high), and setup sets still take games over with very few conditions necessary. I am very firm in my stance that Cofagrigus is still top 10 and still A rank.

Similarly, I am in full agreement with Davon in that Weezing should not drop (and if anything could rise to A+). It's one of the most consistent defensive options in the tier, soft checking a variety of threats and being one of the few reliable Ground-immune options we have. I also think that Toxic Spikes are really nasty right now; despite the prevalence of Heavy-Duty Boots, they tend to make progress in games pretty frequently because of options like Garbodor, Skuntank, and Silvally-Poison falling off, which leads to teams having to spend that turn clearing them with Defog much of the time. Sure, it struggles with special wallbreakers, but I don't think it needs to consistently answer them to still be elite at everything else it does.

 

[Catalisador]

The good stuff!
​

A+ -> S

Providing great defensive backbone and utility plus sheer splashability and the ability to act as a blanket check to many of the metagame's biggest threats in Ninetales, Gallade and Escavalier makes Mudsdale a premier glue pokémon in the SS NU metagame. Furthermore, Choice Band sets provide the horse a certain level of unpredictability and fantastic breaking potential. I think Mudsdale is definitely an S tier pokémon.

A -> A+

I've been playing around with Choice Specs Duraludon and let me tell you: there are no switch-ins. It has excellent breaking potential thanks to unresisted Dragon/Steel/Dark coverage. Furthermore, sheer utility from the dragon's more common lead and Choice Scarf sets make it an unpredictable menance in the SS NU metagame. Even Metal Sound abuses the ability of Duraludon to pressure the opposing team, allowing for a -2 Special Defense on a possible check switching in. I think it is very underrestimated right now, specially with how overwhelmed our Steel-types are.

A -> S

Ninjask is a broken pokémon and should be suspect test/banned from NU. It can't be touched because there are no viable priority users in the metagame and it is faster than all other pokémon. Acrobatics + U-Turn chips away at all of its so called "checks", leaving them vulnerable to be finished off late game. Ninjask games often come down to which player gets to pull of the fastest Ninjask. It is a frustrating pokémon to deal with and it is a frustrating pokémon to teambuild around. It is also criminally underrestimated in the VR. Maybe a hot take: I believe Ninjask should be S tier.
Despite Stealth Rock weakness, Ninjask teams can easily get rid of hazards. Or the cicada can simply slap a pair of Heavy-Duty Louboutins and call it a day. There is no solid counterplay to Ninjask. Here are a few replays to prove my point against your____bro and poh, also showcasing aforementioned Duraludon's breaking capabilities. Both teams have more than enough Ninjask "counterplay" on paper, however, the bug always finds a way to break through.
Versus Fat Balance: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1201677738-asy3fymmhqshgkilm1jspzurkkrr6ftpw
Versus Thievul VolTurn: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1201686406-kcntuwir1llfypeyb8tmfe0lpc5jx4wpw

The C tier stuff...​

B -> C+ / C

Rhydon is simply not cut out for this metagame. The overabundance of bulky Water-types, being outclassed by Mudsdale as a Stealth Rocker, not being able to check the likes of Gallade, Ninetales, Escavalier effectively hurts Rhydon's viability. In comparison to other pokémon in the B or even B- and C+ tier such as Cramorant, Silvally-Dark and Appletun, Rhydon offers little to no utility, in my opinion.

B -> UR

Being a blanket check to physical attackers when all of our physical attackers (Gallade, Ninjask, Escavalier...) threaten Dark-types with super-effective hits is not ideal. Furthermore, the abundance of Fairy-types and faster offensive threats make Persian-Alola an underwhelming pick for the current metagame.

B- -> UR

I don't think it needs to be explained why Eldegoss is an unviable pick. No offensive pressure, inability to reliably punish common switch-ins, and not being able to take on any of the metagame's biggest threats makes it just so so so so so so bad. The arrival of Escavalier was the last shovel throwing dirt on her grave.

B- -> UR

Facing competition from other offensive Bug-types is not ideal. Furthermore, facing competition as a Sticky Web setter from Ribombee is way less than ideal. Galvantula just seems extremely underwhelming, with Rotom roaming around and Mudsdale as a blanket check, I doubt the spider will ever see much success.

B- -> C

Escavalier arriving hurt Accelgor's viability. It is not able to significantly threaten it and takes up a spot of a better offensive Bug-type such as Ninjask or Ribombee. Being a Spiker does solidify itself a niche, which is why I believe it is still somewhat viable.

C -> UR

The fairy that can "beat" Steels and Poisons? Is that why this thing is ranked? No.

C -> C+

Basculin is extremely underrated right now. Being able to Flip Turn around and do unholy chip damage while also threatening potential checks with Crunch or Toxic is very valuable. Choice Scarf sets are a terrific revenge killer, while Choice Specs and Choice Band provide amazing breaking potential.

C -> UR

No.

C -> UR

There are better defensive counterplay options against the Ice- and Fairy-types as well as Ninetales, such as defensive Rapidash, which still preserves somewhat of an offensive presence. This thing is just flaming hot Garbodor.

C -> UR

No.

C -> UR

No. Outclassed by Gallade.

C -> UR

Stop clinging on to this thing. It is a bad pokémon. Its only somewhat ok niche was as a stallbreaker but right now it doesn't seem worth wasting up a slot on a team for this when we have better, stronger potential breakers in the tier.

UR -> C

Finally a pokémon that actually has a niche and deserves to be ranked as C tier. Being able to control hazards and provide utility for teammates is huge. Furthermore the ability to check hazard setters such as Mudsdale, Garbodor, Weezing and even Clefairy is extremely interesting. Hattrem was definitely overlooked and is a viable option in the SS NU metagame.

C -> C+

Yeah, you guys wanna nom this to the same tier as Silvally-ducking-Steel? No. It is a niche pokémon, it has a somewhat effective role of breaking fatter teams and that's it. It is definitely better than other niche C tier picks, but not much more can be said.

 

[Aawin]

I only have one nom, but its a solid one dw,

Cramorant- B- to B+/A-

At first, I was skeptical about what this dinky ass bird could do, but after testing and playing with it, I'm convinced that it's a solid choice atm. While the stats are nothing too impressive, Cramorant has a sick Water/Flying STAB combo that isn't walled by anything important (Lanturn doesn't count don't @ me), coupled with a solid ability in Gulp Missile that gets consistent 25% on almost everything and a defense drop / paralysis. HDB plus reliable recovery makes this a pretty decent defogger. I think Cramorant is no longer a niche/meme pick, and can pave the way for teammates with its STABs and get even more damage with Surf/Brave Bird + Gulp Missile. Being able to check threats like Ninetales, Mudsdale, Escavalier (to an extent), punish bulkier shit, and provide tons of role compression is baller.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1201097954 Mari sent out Cram out on turn 8, and it sat there for 37 some odd turns, it was nuts

 

[Monky25]

Gonna echo some of the thoughts and nominations in this thread and add some of my own thoughts.

A- ---> B: Ferroseed just seems way to passive. With every team preparing for top threat escavalier, it feels that teams are also prepared for ferroseed as well. It faces a lot of team slot competition from other steels like steelvally, escavalier, duraludon, and alolan-sandslash. I don't think it should stand on the same level as other A- mons.

A- --> A: Ninetales is being hard slept on. Fire+ grass+ ground coverage is awesome, it has a great speed tier, and beats top threat escavlier. It should definitely rise up to A for this dominance.

B+ --> A-: While steelvally is not as good as it used to be, B+ feels disrespectful for a fast hard hitting steel and defogger. Not too much to say, but steelvally should def be in the A- ranks.

C+ -->B-: I always thought poli in C+ was very weird. It is a great check to escavalier, rapidash, and other decent mons in the tier. Im starting to say less as these noms go on but poli should fit in as a B- mon.

- Not much to say for any of these, sandslash and accelgor should drop 1 subrank while theivul and cramorant should rise 1 subrank.

- All of these mons should be UR, none of these are viable in the current NU metagame. however, in the case of eldegoss, abomasnow, cinncinnio, basculin, and sandaconda they should become D Rank rather than UR since they are NU by usage. With the creation of d rank also add hitmontop and malamar since they are NU by usage but basically unviable. Low quality post from me but hey Im tired.

 

[Rabia]

not doing a D rank btw, it's useless and creates pointless confusion

 

[Rabia]

also to make up for my shitty one-liner I'm gonna be a dirty double-poster :slight_smile:

I'd like to see Rapidash in A. I think it's cemented itself as a really good utility Pokemon, handling the Fairy-types and Ninetales while spreading Toxic poison really reliably. I also think the Ninjask interaction is pretty funny if you run Flame Body, since Ninjask doesn't consistently get by the horse and risks burning itself and thus becoming significantly less useful several times if it tries to one-on-one the horse.

In contrast, however, I'd keep Ninetales in A-. I think the metagame is trending against it with Cramorant continuing its reign of terror and Pokemon like Wishiwashi, Mudsdale, and Jellicent remaining prevalent, with the former two typically EVing with Ninetales in mind. Additionally, I think people really are forgetting how god fucking weak Ninetales is without a boost; it hits like a wet paper towel and struggles to make as much progress as one would like at times. Experimenting with Toxic > Scorching Sands is probably worthwhile so it isn't forced into unfavorable positions as easily, but I think the metagame is at a point where Ninetales isn't as consistent of a wallbreaker as it had been.

It's not been long since I last addressed this, but I've become more convinced Thievul is actually a good pick in the metagame. Stakeout Dark Pulse is a pain for most teams to deal with, and I think despite Thievul at times struggling to immediately force KOs that it's a solid wallbreaker and could use a rise to probably B.

I think Kangaskhan is probably due for a drop to C+. It definitely benefits from the most common answers to it not actually resisting Double-Edge, but it still feels like a pain to make meaningful progress with. I think a big part of this is most Kangaskhan going Heavy-Duty Boots to avoid being worn down even more quickly, and even opting for Jolly > Adamant. I think there's maybe enough justification to go for the latter ability now with Toxicroak gone and most Gallade being Choice Scarf, but I don't think 10% extra damage is going to return Kangaskhan to the limelight.

he's heat, try him out

 

[etern]

B- > A / A+: Cramorant is one of the most defining mons in the tier right now. It's by far the best hazard control in the tier, blanket checks a wide variety of dangerous mons ranging from Ninetales, Mudsdale, variants of Duraludon, and many others depending on your spread, and extremely good at chipping down entire teams on its own. It's really easy to throw onto most teams and it'll always be useful either defensively or offensively, especially because Gulp Missile is broken. Frankly it has no business being in PU or anywhere near the B ranks with how consistent it is and has proven to be in the past month or two, somewhere between A and A+ would fit it nicely.

UR > A-: Trevenant is a mon that I theorized about a month or so ago when I realised it was probably the most consistent status absorber in the tier other than Clefairy. The different between them is that Trevenant has absolutely no safe switch-ins because of how ridiculously strong its Banded set is. Trev can comfortably come in on anything remotely passive like Mudsdale, Gastrodon, Clefairy, and Miltank, absorb their status, and then fire off a nuclear hit while curing itself upon switching out (also worth noting that it has recovery in the form of Horn Leech to mitigate the initial chip it takes from status, very big). Trevenant also has fantastic synergy with top tier mons like Ninjask, Persian-A, Rapidash-, Cramorant, and Ribombee due to its typing and offensive / defensive capabilities, making it relatively easy to fit onto balance and bulky offense teams. I highly suggest everyone gives it a try!

A- > A: Rapidash has really risen in popularity again lately because of how good it's max HP set is at gluing teams together. It's one of only two viable Fire-types that we have, fast enough to both switch-in and outspeed Ninetales which makes it a fantastic answer, a respectable check to metagame defining mons like Escavalier and Ribombee, while also being a nice Ice-resist, something which a lot of NU teams have been sorely lacking as of late if not running Escav. Definitely worthy of joining the A ranks.

B > B+ / A-: Persian-A is back in favour again as one of the only good Dark-types in the tier that can blanket check and / or threaten most physical attackers it comes in on, for example after a slight amount of chip it can OHKO Gallade with Foul Play. However the main reason I rate Persian very highly atm is the insane synergy it has with meta picks like Ninjask, Trevenant, Escavalier, Rotom, and Mudsdale. It can enable some very fearsome volturn offenses while also having the defensive utility to form defensive cores on more balanced approaches. Underrated mon that I expect to see a lot more of in the coming weeks.

 

[Latirae]

B- > B / B+ Gastrodon provides a lot of utility in the current metagame by switching into wallbreakers like Choice Specs Duraladon,Choice Specs Rotom, and Kingler; as well as giving answers to common pokemon such as Cramorant and Weezing, which have become more popular in the metagame. While it has some specific weaknesses like a 4x grass weakness (losing to ninetales), it still offers a lot of utility that the metagame can struggle with. Building around it can be awkward, but Weezing is a great partner and provides a lot of utility in one core that Gastro is a main part of.

 

[kay]

Raises:

UR --> C+
Honestly if it weren't for the fact I was the only one using it I'd nom it a lot higher as I think Grassy Terrain with Grassy Seed Swoobat is one of the strongest play styles in NU currently but seeing as I am the only one whose abused this I figured this small safe nom is a nice place to shoot for to get in on the map. At+2/+2+2 a lot of teams kinda just instantly lose to it and the fact it really doesn't mind Ninjask thanks to the defense bonus means teams really struggle to actually deal with it and randomly just get 6-0d by it. It really enjoys how scarfers are non existent right now too.

I kinda stopped saving replays at some point but Here is a replay of me using it in my NUL game where, due to user error, I messed up my swoobat 6-0 but not before taking out half his team with it. If you want the team I posted it in the Baazar.


C --> C+/ higher
Same thing as Swoobat. Terrain is terrifying right now and this being the thing that enables it makes it pretty good. I could definitely see this going higher when this catches on more but again, just a nom to get it on the map.


A+ --> S
By far the best rocker in the tier right now that fits cleanly on pretty much every team. Its become pretty much a staple in every defensive core as a blanket check to pretty much every single physical attacker in the tier and there are even some Sp.D sets running around to better check some special threats like Ninetales and Galv which only adds to its splashablity. I think its worse then the other 2 mons in S right now but I think its proven itself to be a league above everything else in A+.


C --> C+/B-
I know this just got nommed to go UR but I think the post totally looks over why you'd use this over other breakers. With Persian-a gaining favor in the meta and Weezing rising up as the premier poison type Skuntank finds itself in a unique spot to be one of the best offensive switch ins to these to help punish a lot of defensive cores, especially ones using Escavalier as their poison resist. On top of having stab + coverage that's hell to deal with for not just stall but balance as well, it also sits in a speed tier above Gallade which is huge for it because that's really the benchmark every offensive mon in the tier wants to try to be hitting right now. Also if you haven't tried it Shucca is an amazing option on Skuntank as it allows Skuntank it win vs a muds that switches in on a NP as well as helps with things like Stunfisk-g and utility Rapidash.


Drops:

A- --> B-
This thing kinda sucks. Right now in the meta thanks to Escavalier you really need options on your poisons to hit steel types and Garbodor really lacks any such options. Its okay on like Spike stack but with boots being all over the place and defoggers like Cramorant just shutting down any attempt it has to Spike stack it just really feels lack luster right now and there's not enough of a use to justify it anywhere near the A ranks.


B --> C
Much like Garbodor this thing also really sucks because its directly competing with Mudsdale and does almost nothing better then it aside from having Heat Crash on rocks sets or the DDance sets which are also super lack luster right now. I have repeatedly tried to make this mon work and every time I've ended up having to replace it for another option because its just not effective anymore.


(poison) C --> UR
Since coming back to NU I've yet to actually see this thing be used and I'm struggling to see why you'd use it over Skuntank unless you REALLY wanted to use the fact it could use a physical set instead. Maybe defensive has some merit that I'm not seeing but I don't really see why'd use this.


C --> UR
I thought this thing would be a cool CB mon after Sneasel left but good god this thing is not viable. I'd rather just run persian-a on basically every team. Sure Copy Cat sets might look cool every now and then but its really not worth using outside of the challenge of making a weird gimmick work.


Also just going to throw out my support on the mons nommed above: these mons are great and I totally support their rising. Their post put the reasons as to why perfectly so not going to be too in depth about it. Just read their posts.

 

[Rabia]

Locking this while we work on one last update before Crown Tundra's release :)

edit: I'm actually going to add one more nomination to the slate with this post because I think this Pokemon is so irredeemably bad that it needs to drop lol

It never wins games. It never gets used. The appeal is obvious: it's got good special bulk, which helps out teams that need some in-a-pinch support against strong breakers, and Ice + Grass + Flying coverage isn't the worst, but the tier is run by Steel- and Fire-types, harming Frosmoth's ability to meaningfully contribute to games. I don't think it should be higher than C+

 

[Rabia]

rises
B- -> A-: Cramorant has cemented its places as one of the most reliable Defoggers, bulky Water-types, and Ground-immune options in the tier. It has a good matchup against common meta staples like Mudsdale, Ninetales, and Weezing, and it overall compresses many useful traits into one teamslot. Additionally, the recent adaptations of Brave Bird > Hurricane have improved its Gallade-KOing capabilities.

B- -> B+: Similarly to Cramorant, Gastrodon is a very reliable bulky Water-type with the added benefit of preventing Volt Switch users like Rotom and Rotom-S from freely pivoting throughout the game. It's sort of awkward to build with, but the structures it fits on can generally support it very well.

A+ -> S: Mudsdale is the best Stealth Rock setter the tier has, with no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Its overall bulk lets it blanket check a lot of key Pokemon in the tier, including Gallade, Ninetales, and Rapidash; it lacks passivity courtesy of its great base Attack stat; and it's good at forcing Toxics onto Pokemon like Cramorant, Jellicent, and Rotom, which makes it easier for teammates to deal with them over time. Additionally, we've seen some more niche sets like Choice Band and SubToxic pop up from time to time, which add to its versatility and let it take on different roles for the teams it goes on.

A -> A+: Ninjask is at worst the second best pivot in the tier and easily the best revenge killer. Speed Boost lets it safely deal with threats like Choice Scarf Gallade and Quiver Dance Ribombee (if you win a 50/50) and makes it a potentially devastating late-game cleaner with Swords Dance. Furthermore, it appreciates the dominance of Pokemon like Escavalier and Mudsdale over options like Togedemaru and Rhydon, since they don't resist Flying.

B -> A-: Alolan Persian is rearing its ugly head again as a premier pivot and blanket physical wall with Fairy-types losing a bit of their luster. Its synergy with potent wallbreakers like Life Orb Gallade and Choice Band Trevenant and place on heavy pivot teams have once again solidified it as a staple of the metagame and one of the most annoying Pokemon to match into because of how great it is at disrupting games with moves like Taunt, Parting Shot, and Toxic.

A- -> A: Utility Rapidash sets have turned this Pokemon from a simple Swords Dance sweeper to a nice check to Pokemon like Ninetales, Ribombee, and Whimsicott. It can easily force Toxic poisons onto Pokemon like Mudsdale and Wishiwashi to support common teammates like Ninjask and Cramorant, and it's a nice form of Speed on balance builds that opt for a slower offensive option.

(steel) B+ -> A-: Not a whole lot has changed for Silvally-Steel, but the council decided its ability to compress Defog, pivoting, and a Fairy + Dragon check into one slot was worth a slight rise.

C -> C+: Skuntank is a bit better now because it's able to exploit the high Weezing usage and draw in and take out Mudsdale with boosting Dark Pulses, especially when using a Shuca Berry set.

UR -> C: kay fuck you (terrain teams exist now)

C -> C+: While the initial hype train for Thievul seems to have died down a smidge, it remains a fine option as a surprisingly potent wallbreaker with fairly minimal competition.

UR -> B+: The god tree himself, Trevenant has been gaining fairly significant usage lately as a result of its strength and ability Natural Cure, which lets it safely absorb Toxics and disregard Scald burns. Poltergeist + Wood Hammer is a pain to switch into, and teams really appreciate it for making Mudsdale and Wishiwashi slots much less punishing. It's particularly great on heavy pivoting teams with Pokemon like Ninjask and Alolan Persian and seems to be proving itself to not just be a "flavor of the month" Pokemon.

A -> A+: Weezing is easily the best Ground-immune the tier has to offer and is an all-around nice physical wall. With sets now using Flamethrower and even Shadow Ball more frequently to punish foes like Escavalier and Jellicent, Weezing has become more capable of dealing with offensive threats and less easy to take advantage of. Additionally, Toxic Spikes can auto-win games pretty easily, and Weezing is the best setter of them.

drops
C -> UR: It faces heavy competition with other wallbreakers like Vanilluxe, Whimsicott, and Trevenant and really dislikes Escavalier existing.

B- -> C+: Ribombee and Ninjask have essentially taken over as the fast Bug-types, and Accelgor struggles to wallbreak when teams commonly have options like Cramorant, Jellicent, and Weezing to wall it.

C -> UR: It's the only Fairy-type that can lure in and deal with Steel-types, but it's generally outdone in every other role imaginable.

C -> UR: The opportunity cost to using Basculin has been significantly higher ever since Jellicent and Gastrodon entered the tier, and it hasn't managed to really pick up any traction since then.

C -> UR: It struggles to wallbreak as a result of Steel-types being essentially mandatory on every team in addition to blanket checks like Alolan Persian and Weezing being extremely prominent.

B- -> C: Despite being one of the few spinners available, it's too easily taken advantage of by Pokemon like Escavalier and Whimsicott and only really fits on heavy stall, which isn't a very strong or common playstyle.

C -> UR: Something about defensive Fire-types lacking metagame longevity? Finchinator can probably fill you in on this one

B- -> C: My above post details the reasoning for this.

(small) B- -> C+: It hasn't really caught on at all, and Alolan Persian + Weezing being super solid right now harms its future prospects. Additionally, it's even seeing more competition from Trevenant now due to its power + ability, which may hurt its ability to ever establish a solid niche.

B- -> C: It isn't a very strong wallbreaker. Steel-types are very common, and most teams have one of those + another Pokemon that doesn't mind taking a hit or two.

C -> UR: I feel like we mostly ranked this Pokemon under the theory it'd be sort of like a Sneasel replacement because of fast Knock Off. It is indeed not a Sneasel replacement.

C -> UR: Other Water- and Poison-types have stolen all the possible usage from Qwilfish. It isn't unusable realistically because it can compress a fair amount of tools into one slot (Spikes, Fighting resist, speed control), but it's pretty hard to justify much of the time.

B -> C+: Mudsdale has sucked away so much of the reason to use Rhydon. It doesn't consistently answer the Fire-types because 1) Rapidash poisons it and then runs away and 2) Energy Ball from Ninetales massacres it. It's an alright HO pick but nothing more really.

C -> UR: Coil sets aren't very good, Mudsdale does the whole "Ground-type that sets Stealth Rock" thing better, etc.

A- -> B: I talked with someone earlier this month about whether or not Alolan Sandslash was actually any good, and the conclusion we came to was something along the lines of "probably not." It's a poor Duraludon answer because it doesn't resist Steel and gets owned by Body Press, and the Bug- and Fairy-types it aims to check generally just pivot out as it comes in, meaning all it ends up doing is giving up momentum. It can fill a lot of roles on a team (Stealth Rock setter, Spiker, spinner), but it requires more support than other options.

(poison) C+ -> C: Sort of hard to justify over other Silvally formes and Poison-types, doesn't check the Fairy-types long-term very well because of a Psychic weakness, and doesn't really get to ever use Multi-Attack because of how prevalent Poison resists/immunities are.

Will unlock the thread once I update the OP. Keep in mind we're getting the new DLC later today, so that'll probably have at least a small impact on the viability of Pokemon, so be careful when making nominations for now!

 

[Rabia]

Discussion points:

-> higher: Duraludon is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier because of how strong its Choice Specs Draco Meteor is, but lately we've seen more divergence in its sets, with options like Eject Pack and Iron Defense being experimented with. Do these sets becoming a bit more popular warrant a rise?

-> higher: Alolan Persian was easily one of the least pleasant Pokemon to face in the pre-DLC metagame, and its return to the spotlight probably has people moaning already. Does A- accurately represent its place in the metagame? Or should we push it up even further?

-> lower: Gurdurr isn't a bad option by any means, but it doesn't really see any meaningful usage, and Gallade seems to be the default Fighting-type for most people. Does Gurdurr's ability to take over games late mean it should stay? Or is the metagame continuing to trend against it?

Much like Rhydon, Piloswine doesn't love Mudsdale being the non-passive Ground-type setter of the pointy pebbles. It does check common metagame Pokemon like Ninjask and Ninetales pretty decently, though. Is B the right rank for it?

 

[Catalisador]

Howdy, everybody! Roselia advocate Catalisador here! Today, I'll be giving a shoutout to a pokémon that is extremely underrexplored in the current SS NU metagame: Torracat.

​

At first, Torracat might seem like an ordinary NFE. Afterall, subpar 85/80/90 offenses and abysmal 65/50/50 bulk are not catching anyone's attention. However, access to one of the most valuable abilities in the game in Intimidate, boosting the kitty's overall physical bulk to decent levels, as well as a vast utility movepoll make Torracat a pick to consider in the current SS NU metagame.

1. Torracat's niche

In an offense-heavy metagame, keeping up momentum is essential in order to mantain a winning position. With threats such as Escavalier, Ribombee and Arctozolt roaming around, Torracat provides a blanket check with the ability to keep up momentum for faster-paced teams via Parting Shot, differentiating itself from other utility Fire-types, mainly Rapidash. Furthermore, natural typing and Intimidate allow the cat to act as an extraordinary switch-in to one of the most unnerving offensive pokémon in SS NU: Choice Band Escavalier.

Calcs. vs. Choice Band Escavalier

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 84-99 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 84-99 (25.2 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 55-66 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- possible 6HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 55-66 (16.5 - 19.8%) -- 10.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 90-107 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 90-107 (27 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 112-132 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 112-132 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Calcs. vs. Choice Scarf Gallade

-1 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 96-114 (28.8 - 34.2%) -- 2% chance to 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 96-114 (28.8 - 34.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 64-76 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
-1 252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 64-76 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 52-62 (15.6 - 18.6%) -- possible 6HKO
-1 252 Atk Gallade Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 52-62 (15.6 - 18.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock

Calcs. vs. Choice Specs Ribombee

252 SpA Choice Specs Ribombee Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torracat: 108-128 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 98.3% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Ribombee Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torracat: 108-128 (32.4 - 38.4%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Ribombee Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torracat: 137-162 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Ribombee Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Torracat: 137-162 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Calcs. vs. Mudsdale

-1 0 Atk Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 132-156 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 0 Atk burned Mudsdale Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 66-78 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO

Calcs. vs. Rapidash variants

-1 0 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 70-84 (21 - 25.2%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
-1 0 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 70-84 (21 - 25.2%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

-1 252 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 88-104 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 Atk Rapidash High Horsepower vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Torracat: 88-104 (26.4 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

2. Torracat in action

Here is a replay against Confide showcasing Torracat's ability to keep-up momentum and aliviate opposing offensive pressure thanks to Parting Shot, allowing for safer switch-ins for teammates. Furthermore, Torracat's pivoting capabilities are very much appreciated by an offensive-paced team such as the one on the replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1207490810-w6y47zt0pn8ydr6svk33zkrr47fatldpw.

In this replay against NU extraordinaire Rabia, Torracat provides a momentum grabbing, blanket-check to offensive Rapidash while also not allowing Ninjask to become an issue thanks to good bulk via Intimidate and Fire STAB: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1206442130.

Similarly, in this replay against Pokeslice, Torracat was able to keep the momentum going repeatedly by coming in on Silvally-Steel and even Piloswine, always putting me in favourable positions: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1207497692-1uxskfudvn7iq1l78eb3s1h5ki4s1ilpw.

Lastly, in this replay against NU moderator kay, Torracat is able to repeatedly check Trevanant and Thwackey and keep up the momentum against switch-ins such as Wishiwashi and Mudsdale. Furthermore, the RestTalk tech allows Torracat to become a competent pivot again around turn 19: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1206435742-az892kec4jhak07izn6tnx0lprr4ht4pw.

This is a recent Torracat replay against banks. The cat was able to pivot into Rapidash and put me in a comfortable position: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1209401903-ml0uve1pcgaratzd7yzmi2jnzpmw73apw.

Torracat mirror-match versus your____bro, showcasing an incredible battle. Really recommend watching, extremely fun: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1209432666.

3. The sets

Torracat's main function is as a momentum-grabbing glue. Therefore, the main two moves it really requires are Fire-type STAB and Parting Shot. Other than that, you can pick between a vast movepool of utility, ranging from Toxic and Will-O-Wisp to punish switch-ins to Taunt to cripple bulkier walls or even RestTalk to mantain the cat's vitality. Here are the two main sets I'd recommend:

Full-on utility

Utility (Torracat) @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Toxic / Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt / Roar
- Parting Shot

RestTalk

RestTalk (Torracat) @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 236 Def / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Sleep Talk
- Rest
- Parting Shot

4. Final thoughts

Torracat is a great glue option for fast-paced teams in the SS NU metagame, as demonstrated by the aforementioned replays and explanations, and should not be underrestimated, providing unique utility niche no other pokémon can currently give.

Edit: added a fresh new replay.

 

[Rabia]

-> A: This is a conservative ranking, but I do think this fossil is incredibly potent with Slush Rush. STAB BoltBeam coverage is dumb good, and it really doesn't have any counters or even decent checks outside of Piloswine and Ferroseed. Hail's potency is at a high point currently, and Arctozolt is the main reason for it.

-> A: This nomination is mostly to reflect hail's increase in relevancy in addition to how good and consistent Aurora Veil has been for a while now. It's weird to see Vanilluxe as nothing more than a supporting Pokemon after last generation, but it's damn good at supporting the builds it does.

-> B+: Admittedly, this is mostly me theorizing here, but surely Arctovish is relevant too, right?

-> A-: I haven't seen much Golbat or even used it outside of Nasty Plot, but it more or less does the same thing as it has every other generation: disrupt passive Pokemon, bring in wallbreakers, remove hazards, etc. Super Fang is really helpful for supporting Pokemon like Whimsicott and Ribombee that want Steel-types removed or weakened.

-> C: It's about as consistent as all the other Pokemon in C. ProTox + Substitute is effective enough at crippling bulky Water-types, and wasting hail turns is pretty valuable right now.

these next ones will be about the discussion points

-> A+: Iron Defense Duraludon is legit. I agree with quziel (I think you were the one that said this) that Duraludon had been largely underexplored up until recently, and this set picking up prominence, particularly Substitute variants, has really increased how potent it is. Additionally, Choice Specs sets still remain incredibly scary, and other niche sets like offensive Stealth Rock and Choice Scarf further cement how much versatility this guy has despite its movepool not being the most extensive.

-> A+: Dumb cat keeps pivoting at an immaculate rate. It's nice as a soft check to the fossils too for what that's worth, albeit a very situational one.

-> A-: Piloswine is relevant now entirely because it checks Arctozolt.

-> remain B+: I think Mach Punch + decent physical bulk is enough to keep this ranked where we currently have it.

Much of these ranking suggestions are hard to really get solid footing for because the ladder is entirely cheese builds right now, between hail, Aurora Veil, and even the occasional terrain team. Hopefully NU Snake can help us develop the VR further once DLC2 starts affecting the tier.

 

[Catalisador]

Howdy, Roselia advocate and Torracat activist Catalisador here to give some quick thoughts on current metagame trends before DLC2 shifts take over! I'll also be providing replays to prove my takes.

RISES


A -> S​

Incredible defensive utility in reducing Ninjask pressure while providing amazing offensive capabilities and unpredictability in set choices ranging from IronPress, Choice Specs and lead for hyper-offensive teams to Choice Scarf and Metal Sound make Duraludon one of the most threatening pokémon in the current SS NU metagame. Furthermore, the sky-high tournament win-rate and usage proves how deserving the dragon is of a spot amongst the fabled S rank pokémon.

A+ -> S​

The true definition of centralization, Ninjask was able to divide the tier in two split factions: the pro-Ninjaskers, lead by Mariannabelle and their despicable goons, and the ban Ninjask movement. As of right now, it is undeniable how polarizing Ninjask can be, not being truly "checked" by any pokémon thanks to blazing speed and access to STAB U-Turn to avoid getting hit unnecessarily and breaking through unprepared teams with the help of potent breakers such as Choice Specs Duraludon and Ribombee.

B -> A-​

A great Ground-type option over the omnipresent Mudsdale, Piloswine provides a secondary STAB and a key resistance to Ice plus great offensive utility in secondary Ice-type STAB as well as priority Ice Shard. Furthermore, the release of Arctozolt's hidden ability makes Piloswine a perfect pick as a rocker for hail-weak teams.

C+ -> B-​

Grass and Ghost make for a fantastic, nearly-unresisted STAB combination. Furthermore, decent speed tier, access to priority Shadow Sneak, utility moves in Trick and Synthesis and even mixed/special potential in Nasty Plot or 4 attacks special lure make Gourgeist an underrestimated pick for the current SS NU metagame.

DROPS


A- -> B+​

Time to get controversial, eh? The metagame has adapted for Ninetales. I'd say it has overadapted: from Munchlax becoming a viable niche pick to Cramorant and Rapidash becoming metagame staples. Ninetales has kind of fallen of as of lately. Although still pretty decent, I think Ninetales hardly represents a big enough threat or gives enough utility to receive a spot amongst the likes of Cramorant, Whimsicott and Clefairy.

NOMINATIONS


UR -> C​

Hattrem does what Hattrem has always done: keep hazards in check. It is also a decent check to physical attackers such as Gallade with enough defensive investment. Furthermore, access to utility Nuzzle, Healing Wish and Mystical Fire make her a decent pick for hazard control right now. It also helps hail teams to spam items other than Heavy-Duty Boots on their fossils, which is neat (owo).

UR -> C​

Although the arrival of Escavalier hurt Roselia slightly, great Grass/Poison defensive typing in combination with great utility movepool in Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Synthesis, Sleep Powder, etc. make Roselia a viable pick for the current SS NU metagame. Being able to check Fairy- and Water-types such as Ribombee, Whimsicott and Jellicent makes for a great role-compression slot, while 100 base SpA makes sure Roselia can pack a punch to punish switch-ins with STAB Sludge Bomb, further threatening them with poison, Giga Drain, for more consistent healing, or Leaf Storm, for huge damage, getting 63 to 90% off of Mudsdale with no SpA investment needed. It was also recently used in Snake.

UR -> C​

Great pivotting potential as well as good defensive typing, ability and movepool make Torracat a niche glue for fast-paced hyper-offensive teams, providing a unique role no other Fire-type can currently do in the SS NU metagame. Being able to decently check Escavalier, Rapidash and Ninjask helps mitigate opposing offensive pressure for fast-paced teams without giving up momentum thanks to Parting Shot, while the move, in combination with Intimidate, allow for settuping opportunities for teammates.

Ninjask replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1201677738-asy3fymmhqshgkilm1jspzurkkrr6ftpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1201686406-kcntuwir1llfypeyb8tmfe0lpc5jx4wpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1202062145

Torracat replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1206435742-az892kec4jhak07izn6tnx0lprr4ht4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1206442130
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1207490810-w6y47zt0pn8ydr6svk33zkrr47fatldpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1207497692-1uxskfudvn7iq1l78eb3s1h5ki4s1ilpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1209401903-ml0uve1pcgaratzd7yzmi2jnzpmw73apw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1209432666

Hail replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1207869158-magtai56t8lgstkd52hrrl7mbozqupjpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1207876763-v7l0o4861t6l0wylpfdne7f6j5y1ncupw

Special Gourgeist replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1209943753-fibanfil7pey0zew9fwxtyhday06cfhpw

Roselia replays

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nu-1213010860-1gr52jy958917kirnbqu4vohdu4jhv3pw

 

[Mariannabelle]

Just gonna add my two cents to the discussion:

If any change, it deserves a rise; it’s pretty nice check against hail with its STAB punches (including Mach) and the meta has adapted to Fairies rather well. It has access to Defog, and while Knock Off is the standard coverage move, it has various other options like Ice Punch for the Ninjask matchup. ^

Maybe a rise to B+. Doesn’t like competing with Mudsdale for that Rocker spot, but nice Ice resist, and Ice Shard access amount to something. ^

I’ve used it, it’s good. It has a billion different moves it can run. Super Fang breaks balance, Taunt breaks stall, Roost keeps it healthy, Brave Bird checks meta threats like Ribombee/Gallade/etc., Toxic is Toxic, U-turn, Defog, etc. Eviolite patches the bulk, but the Boots sets I’ve used get the job done. I don’t know where to rank it, so I implore others to use it more so we can get a better idea. ^^

Very versatile, and I think the meta has settled in such a way that it’s much better at compensating for its weaknesses than it was before. ^^

I haven’t used it even on my Acrojask teams that are desperate to keep pebbles off, but I think there’s something to be said about being the only remotely viable Magic Bounce user available. ^

It’s a Fire type with Intimidate and pivot moves. -

I think the meta is currently trending against it what with hail on the rise.

Speaking of which:

I used it a bit. It’s legit. Legitimately insane. Definitely enough to warrant Ferroseed or Piloswine usage by itself.