Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)

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Sorry I haven'y posted much in the last few months. IRL stuff sucks sometimes but I figured I could atleast give my thoughts on the future potential meta-game.

What are you most excited to use in the new metagame?
Magerna is definately my favourite of the OU metas potential new tools. Not only is she adorable her typing lets her come in on much of the metagame and do stuff. While her speed tier holds her back somewhat Shift gear can alleviate this and you could just run her as a stall breaker with calm mind. Otherwise I'm excited for my 3 favourite Priority users from yesteryear. These 3 alone should prevent Alakazam from running amok to much and keep speed boosting sweepers in check. All 3 create mind game situations to since they can either hit like a truck (Azu) or U-turn out. Talonflame also will benefit from heavy duty boots

What pre-dlc mons are expected to get hit the hardest?
For these 3 I expect the end is near. I enjoy umbreon but the already clefable filled meta makes life hard and the addition of Chancsy, Blissey and Skarmory take away almost every remaining niche it has in OU. Sure it can still hard check Aegisslash and most ghosts but theres other mons that can and more now. Seeya old friend. Otherwise Tyraniter maybe on its its last legs. Sure it can check talonflame, Ghosts and will always be useful on Sand but virtually every other niche it once has is gone. Scarf is nolonger viable, DD takes to long and Band is to slow and doesn't like the presence of Azu/Scizor. Anything it can do is done better by hippo at the moment and really it needs pursuit back if it wants to stand out again.

I addition the return of Chansey means most special attackers lacking a fighting move will be see a decline in someway

What pre-dlc mons are expected to benefit the most or see a rise in viability?
Vaporeons new moves should see it stay viable in OU even as its fellow evolutions disappear. Flipturn is fantastic and lets it stand apart from tele-clef on some teams. Dodging taunt alone is huge. Otherwise The changes in the meta should see Gyarados eventually rise in usage its typing and intimidate allow it to check the returned priority users and set up on them. Gengar Being one of the few Special attackers not affected by chansey alone should see it go up and right now I'm really enjoying trick specs

How do you feel about Galarian Slowbro and Urshifu? Kinda indifferent but both will have there use's in the tier. Galarian slowbro will see usage simply because it can check Alakazam with its typing to an extent but will likely be UU. Urshifu on the other hand with its ability Unseen Fist and fantastic offensive typing will definately be OU. Right now I favour a band set but scarf looks fun to
What do you believe will be overhyped and what will die down after being given the "new toy" treatment?
Without Hidden Power magenzone can only really trap Corvinight and Skarmory and even then really needs a choice item which further hinders it. While it will definately have uses in the tier it'll likely end up UU or even RU. Not being able to beat Ferrothorn is a huge deal honestly. Speaking of Skarmory With Corvinight in the tier it'll likely only find a place on stall teams or Bulky Balance which is sad because I do enjoy using it on other teams

What I wish was good?
This is a pokemon that really wishes its mega was back and until then will linger in mediocrity. I loved using this in Gen6/7 and wouldlove to see megas back but thats unlikely to happen :(.

All in all thats my thoughts for the Tier At the moment and while I do hate Nasty plot Alakazam the tier is overall enjoyable and Prioty Spam should ensure that monster remains in check. Clefs days as number 1 I think are nearly over but we'll wait and see. on that to. Looks like the next few weeks will be fun and If everything works out I should be able to play a tad more. See you guys all on showdown :)
 


Heracross @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Evs: 252 Atk (I don't know what other Evs should be in terms of bulk)
Nature: Calm (Again, uncertain about it)
Moves:
-Spikes
-Megahorn/U-Turn
-Close Combat/Brick Break
-Smart Strike/Knock Off

This set needs quite a bit of work, but I like the concept. The idea is that this set can be fit on balanced teams, and would act as a spiker that would keep momentum and take an attack or too (similarly to SM Greninja but MUCH bulkier). First 2 moves are decently self-explanatory (U-Turn can be subbed in for extra momentum, slightly less power). I'm very unsure what to use for a fighting move, as this Heracross set is meant to be on the bulky side. Also very unsure on the last move, as Smart Strike does well against Teleport Clef, while Knock Off better threatens common defogger switch-ins. There are probably more move options, but those are the two that stuck out the most to me. (Also here are damage calcs)

[252 Atk Heracross Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery]
[252 Atk Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 56-66 (18.4 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO] (First hit is double damage, Garunteed 4HKO, Black Sludge gone]
[252 Atk Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 72-85 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO] (See above)

However, seeing as the meta is very new and hectic, I have no idea how much bulk and speed I should be running. I was wondering if any of yall could contribute to this set. (If this post doesn't belong here, do tell, I am decently new to Smogon)
 
Mage needs to go. The iron defense/cm/stored power/kiss set, or its shift gear counter part, are too much for ou. You're forced to switch in your answer immediately or risk losing the game, and even if, it could always be a bluff and be the trick set, screwing over your Marowak, or whatever unmon you decide to have as a check for this abomination. Even if you do check it, weakness policy lets it quickly put on so much offensive pressure with stored power that you're almost guaranteed to lose a mon. It doesn't care about paralysis because it's so damn bulky too.

I understand that's early in the meta, and that it will take a bit for things to settle down, but once it does, Magearna is going to run absolutely buck wild in the tier. In the 1800s, 17/20 games had mage in it, and it's just going to get worse. When the only actual counters are things like magic coat sash users, you know the thing's too good. If you want points, abuse mage while you still can. If you want friends, don't use it. I agreed with all of the SW/SH bans so far, and this is the mon that's felt the most oppressive (bar kyu-b but like lol).
 
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My first post here, and I'm going to be honest, these DLCs are practically the terrain DLCs.
We get moves like expanding force, rising voltage and grassy glide to further bolster the credibility of terrains in the metagame, which will have a huge impact on the tiers as a whole. Possible weather-terrain teams can also function well in the metagame now. These DLCs will have a huge impact on the metagame as pokemon like rillaboom(RU) may have a good niche in OU now(grassy glide).
 
Is no one using anger point Krookodile or Tauros?? Granted I haven't used it because I didn't have time for the DLC but the very concept of getting a free belly drum when hit by Wicked Blow/Surging Strikes sounds amazing and fun in theory. Though I'm guessing you have to run Max HP or have a figy/sitrus berry and Krookodile is slower than Urshifu but its dark typing takes around max 41% from banded wicked blow. Has anyone actually experienced using this set?
 


Heracross @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Evs: 252 Atk (I don't know what other Evs should be in terms of bulk)
Nature: Calm (Again, uncertain about it)
Moves:
-Spikes
-Megahorn/U-Turn
-Close Combat/Brick Break
-Smart Strike/Knock Off

This set needs quite a bit of work, but I like the concept. The idea is that this set can be fit on balanced teams, and would act as a spiker that would keep momentum and take an attack or too (similarly to SM Greninja but MUCH bulkier). First 2 moves are decently self-explanatory (U-Turn can be subbed in for extra momentum, slightly less power). I'm very unsure what to use for a fighting move, as this Heracross set is meant to be on the bulky side. Also very unsure on the last move, as Smart Strike does well against Teleport Clef, while Knock Off better threatens common defogger switch-ins. There are probably more move options, but those are the two that stuck out the most to me. (Also here are damage calcs)

[252 Atk Heracross Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable: 192-228 (48.7 - 57.8%) -- 57.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery]
[252 Atk Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 56-66 (18.4 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO] (First hit is double damage, Garunteed 4HKO, Black Sludge gone]
[252 Atk Heracross Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 72-85 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO] (See above)

However, seeing as the meta is very new and hectic, I have no idea how much bulk and speed I should be running. I was wondering if any of yall could contribute to this set. (If this post doesn't belong here, do tell, I am decently new to Smogon)
Herracross resist both STAB of Darkshifu making a good check.. Adamant nature and some bulk in phys def could help better..
Moxie isnt the best ability bc Hera can being RK by faster mons in the tier.. Guts is better bc you can absorb status and become a better tank..
Most of the defogger beat Heracross 1v1 but can work especialy with wish support

Is no one using anger point Krookodile or Tauros?? Granted I haven't used it because I didn't have time for the DLC but the very concept of getting a free belly drum when hit by Wicked Blow/Surging Strikes sounds amazing and fun in theory. Though I'm guessing you have to run Max HP or have a figy/sitrus berry and Krookodile is slower than Urshifu but its dark typing takes around max 41% from banded wicked blow. Has anyone actually experienced using this set?
I think bc is very situacional and Tauros and Krook has better ability in intimidate
 

Finchinator

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Heracross @ Leftovers
Ability: Moxie
Evs: 252 Atk (I don't know what other Evs should be in terms of bulk)
Nature: Calm (Again, uncertain about it)
Moves:
-Spikes
-Megahorn/U-Turn
-Close Combat/Brick Break
-Smart Strike/Knock Off


Also, Smart Strike and honestly this set is strictly outclassed by Flame Orb + Facade. A solid Heracross set probably looks like:

:Heracross:
Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature OR Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance / Spikes / Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade

I'm glad you tried something new and I think newer players should continue to do so because it helps us all learn and grow as a community and with regards to the metagame, but in this case I feel that this set is pretty clear-cut the best option. Abusing guts allows you to get countless 2HKOs. Megahorn is not really needed as a boosted Facade clocks Psychic types and your remaining coverage hits everything else anyway. I would recommend trying this out!
 

Ema Skye

Work!
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Per the Battle Mechanics thread, both Urshifu's share the same menu sprite during team preview for in-game battles. This is different than it is on Showdown, which specifies the Urshifu form during team preview. This creates a situation similar to Mega Charizard from the past two gens - you don't know which form you're dealing with until it comes out.

I'm not sure how significant this will be (mostly just pointing it out because it's different than how Showdown has it). The most obvious application is having Rapid Strike bluff Single Strike, as the unknown Urshifu type will put pressure on bringing Slowbro or Toxapex out (since they only counter Rapid Strike, not Single Strike). I can't think of any situations for the inverse - having Single Strike bluff being Rapid Strike, given that Rapid Strike has more checks and counters than Single Strike.
 
Per the Battle Mechanics thread, both Urshifu's share the same menu sprite during team preview for in-game battles. This is different than it is on Showdown, which specifies the Urshifu form during team preview. This creates a situation similar to Mega Charizard from the past two gens - you don't know which form you're dealing with until it comes out.

I'm not sure how significant this will be (mostly just pointing it out because it's different than how Showdown has it). The most obvious application is having Rapid Strike bluff Single Strike, as the unknown Urshifu type will put pressure on bringing Slowbro or Toxapex out (since they only counter Rapid Strike, not Single Strike). I can't think of any situations for the inverse - having Single Strike bluff being Rapid Strike, given that Rapid Strike has more checks and counters than Single Strike.
It makes a slight difference in battle.
Namely getting/preventing Urshifu from coming in for the first time or predicting what lead you should use.
If say you have a psychic type out and Urshifu is about to come in, your Psychic type attack might be blocked if Urshifu is Dark, or if you have an offensive water type, you may not want to use a Water attack (besides Scald) since Rapid Strikes may come in.

And as for leads, you may want to hold off your suicide lead such as Excadrill/Terrakion or golurk too, if you think Urshifu might be Rapid Strikes, and Suicide Lead Mew may have to hold off if Urshifu is Single Strikes.
 

Finchinator

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A lot of people are wondering what my stances are on some controversial Pokemon. In addition, people are wondering if the council is discussing potential tiering action. I will outline both of these throughout this post in an effort to keep you guys in the loop. If there are any future questions, feel free to message me on here or discord!

Mage needs to go. The iron defense/cm/stored power/kiss set, or its shift gear counter part, are too much for ou. You're forced to switch in your answer immediately or risk losing the game, and even if, it could always be a bluff and be the trick set, screwing over your Marowak, or whatever unmon you decide to have as a check for this abomination. Even if you do check it, weakness policy lets it quickly put on so much offensive pressure with stored power that you're almost guaranteed to lose a mon. It doesn't care about paralysis because it's so damn bulky too.

I understand that's early in the meta, and that it will take a bit for things to settle down, but once it does, Magearna is going to run absolutely buck wild in the tier. In the 1800s, 17/20 games had mage in it, and it's just going to get worse. When the only actual counters are things like magic coat sash users, you know the thing's too good. If you want points, abuse mage while you still can. If you want friends, don't use it. I agreed with all of the SW/SH bans so far, and this is the mon that's felt the most oppressive (bar kyu-b but like lol).
I find the abundance of Fire types (Rotom-Heat, Volcarona, Alolan Marowak, and even Cinderace) that are very common to all be good measures against Magearna. I think that while the offensive, three attacks set demand some different checks and counters than the CM/Stored Power/Draining Kiss/Iron Defense or Shift Gear set, there is some general overlap and neither packs enough of an immediate punch to where you have to make a guessing game out of it.

For example, swapping in something like you own pivot Magearna, Haze Toxapex, Amoonguss, Excadrill (barring the rare Focus Blast), Chansey, AV Tangrowth, Leech Seed Ferrothorn, Jirachi, or one of the aforementioned Fire types initially is almost always going to be safe and leave you in a manageable position to react to their set even if it turns out to be a set that is going to be able to potentially set-up on a free turn. Without Z moves, Magearna lacks the outright breaking power to punish lone free turns like it had last generation. Because of this, the characteristics of versatility only have as many practical rewards in the game as you say against more hyper offensive teams, who tend to lack pivots or valued switch-ins. While Magearna's versatility makes a free turn against the right HO team deadly, this can also be said about a myriad of other set-up sweepers (Bisharp, Azumarill, and Sand Excadrill being other examples). A contrary example to this would be a Pokemon like Genesect the past few generations. If you guess the set wrong, you are being immediately punished with potentially boosted and super effective attacks that could even claim kills against balance or bulky-offensive teams. This power coupled with the versatility was easily enough to push it over the edge, but Magearna simply does not have even close to this breaking or punishing presence in the current metagame.

All things considered, I believe Magearna is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. We are only a few days in and it already is seeing amazing usage with a plethora of effective sets. It gained some new tools, but the loss of Z moves does make it a lot easier to manage with balance and even bulky-offensive teams so long as you have knowledge of what it can do. Pushing for an immediate quick ban is not something I can accept at this point given what I outlined above and the fact that people are still reacting to using it and facing it. I do not find it broken right now, but there is a chance I will find it even better in the future. Others may find it ridiculous right now, but then find it a lot more manageable as team building settles over the coming weeks. I am more understanding of calls for a potential suspect of Magearna, but I think any immediate suspect is going to be met with claims that it is rushed or premature due to heavy metagame development and a proper approach would be to wait for the metagame to settle seeing as Magearna is not making the game uncompetitive or invalidating much / limiting building much at all (as I explain above).

I respect your points and I think a future Magearna suspect is a possibility, but a quick ban is not happening now and a suspect will not happen in the immediate future either.

Another Pokemon that I wish to discuss is Urshifu (Dark). Choice Band Urshifu with Wicked Blow, Close Combat, Poison Jab, and one of U-turn or Sucker Punch is absolutely devastating to deal with. I believe that it is the closest Pokemon to banworthy right now and it is something we have discussed at length in the council chat. We do not intend to quick ban it and we will probably be waiting a little to go for any formal action as it is a fresh Pokemon and it is a mostly isolated case (as opposed to Melmetal, which came alongside Kyurem-Black and we simply agreed to re-test it alone later). I totally see both sides of the coin here and we are going to continue to actively discuss potential tiering action of Urshifu, but right now we're going to let it settle alongside the metagame.

I think that an argument calling it broken is understandable. While there is a lot of situational counterplay (Regenerator and/or Rocky Helmet cores can at least keep it in check for the first 2-3 switch-ins), the longer it stays alive and gets in safely, thanks to the support from Teleport or slower Volt/Turn, the more chance it has of just decimating your team. Aside from Lefties Hippowdon and Galarian Weezing (former assumes it's Jolly, too), there are no true individual answers to Choice Band Urshifu, which is alarming. With this said, it is very fragile on the special end and it is at best trading a kill for itself being foddered later against more offensive teams if you're running Choice Band (if even, some games against offense it only gets in once and is not even capable of netting a kill), so there are a set of drawbacks. In addition, it is a resist to Ghost, but it does not check Aegislash, Dragapult, or Marowak-Alola, so it does make teambuilding quite limited for people using it.

When you weigh out all of the positives and negatives, there are still far more positives and I view Urshifu as one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. In a way, I like it being in the tier as it punishes the brand of passivity that we previously grew accustom to. Of course, this is not reason enough to keep it in the tier if it is banworthy. Thing is that I am currently on the fence about that and council is not there as a whole either. As I said above, having a suspect before the metagame is established is a premature prospect and I do not deem it quickban worthy for the reasons stated above, so I think we are going to get a greater idea of how good Urshifu is and if it warrants tiering action in the near future.

Another Pokemon worth discussing is Volcarona. Initially, I viewed it as broken as I thought it forced Chansey usage. Honestly, I still think it is not the healthiest Pokemon, but with the a lot of other counterplay options popping up I find it a bit more acceptable for the time being. To list some good situational checks/counters: Chansey, SDef Toxapex, Brave Bird Mandibuzz, Toxic Rotom-Heat, Marowak-Alola, Excadrill Sand, physical Dragapult, Cinderace, and Azumarill are all seeing respectable levels of usage right now. A lot of these Pokemon still have to be careful around Volcarona, but you only need to thwart sweeping attempts once and you are fine, so if you keep up pressure it can be managed. I still find it to be a strong option, but the not many others believe it is suspect or ban worthy and I feel less strongly than initially, so we will at least let it settle.

People have also discussed Alakazam, Cinderace, and the move Teleport with me recently. I do not find any of them banworthy at this point in time, but seeing as some people do, I will continue to monitor their progression in the metagame and I am not afraid to discuss them with the council if they appear more problematic moving forward.
 
Urshifu Single Strike is an excellent Pokemon for sure.
It’s one of the best wallbreakers in the entire game, and has some decent physical bulk too, and can utilize U-turn when an opponent switches in, which sets it apart from the other scary fighting type in Terrakion. (and honestly, I would like to see a separate ladder where either pivot moves are banned or limited to choosing the Pokemon before the turn ends)
Urshifu Single Strike also separates itself from Terrakion in other ways.
-Wicked Blow relies less on luck and hits ground neutrally so you won’t be forced out as much against defensive cores
-Because Wicked Blow always crits, it’s also a 99% reliable means to bypass Iron Defense and Screens
-Urshifu being part Dark gives itself an immunity to Psychic, which is useful when Indeedee and Alakazam have very powerful offensive capabilities now
-Urshifu gets STAB Sucker Punch, which is miles better than Non-STAB Quick Attack
-Urshifu can bypass protect with any contact move, making scouting a punish for the opponent instead of Urshifu itself
-It’s Special bulk is much to be desired.
And in general, Urshifu finds it somewhat hard to switch itself in safely, especially with top tiers like Magearna or Clefable easily KO.
-It’s speed is also pretty lacking too. Having a max 322 without scarf can make Urshifu easy to even kill. And unlike Terrakion, it can’t come in on offensive Volcorona with Choice Scarf as it’ll still be slower and can’t tank a hit after Quiver Dance
-Urshifu doesn’t get Stealth Rock or Swords Dance, leaving it with less variety
-To counter how Urshifu punishes protect scouting, Terrakion can punish Knock Off abuse with Justified, which essentially breaks Choice Lock at the cost of some HP
Urshifu can also be taken advantage of by Terrakion itself if Wicked Blow is used on Terrakion, putting Urshifu’s team in a scary situation
 
Aegslash really will enjoy this meat if Single Strike Urshifu comes popular; even with getting a strong new move in Poltergeist. Its ability basically renders its Kings Shield useless and i think even defensive sets will barely be able to survive a banded Wicked Blow
 
Volc fell off ime. Strong mon for sure but other than the low ladder I've been seeing volcs mostly playing for late game sweeps, which aren't always feasible since either your sweeper/revenge killer breezes past it anyway, or your wall (sp.def unware clef, sp.d mandi, chansey, even pult to a degree walls it) is still up. A nice thing about its checks are they're not run specifically for volc, they're casually thrown in to check other things or they're offensive mons meant for cleanup/DK'ing not just volc specifically. Glad to see volc isn't making pokemon viable just for it similar to how vish injected seismitoad into OU. Overcentralization is a large red flag for unhealthiness and volc doesn't seem to be causing it. Its basically traditional volc; either your team gets 6-0'd by it or it feels pretty useless and right now most teams are prepared for volc even if they don't specifically intend to.

Magearna does need more consideration, its typing and movepool makes it way too difficult to switch into and most would be checks get lured in by its large movepool. I'm on the fence about it being broken but I think a suspect would've been healthy for it even if the council has mixed feelings.
 


Also, Smart Strike and honestly this set is strictly outclassed by Flame Orb + Facade. A solid Heracross set probably looks like:

:Heracross:
Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe OR 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature OR Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance / Spikes / Megahorn
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Facade

I'm glad you tried something new and I think newer players should continue to do so because it helps us all learn and grow as a community and with regards to the metagame, but in this case I feel that this set is pretty clear-cut the best option. Abusing guts allows you to get countless 2HKOs. Megahorn is not really needed as a boosted Facade clocks Psychic types and your remaining coverage hits everything else anyway. I would recommend trying this out!
I haven't tested at all yet, but here is the first draft set I came up with last night when I realized Guts Heracross' potential to wreck the Ultra Stall core Ive been seeing giving people fits on the ladder.

Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Facade
- High Horsepower

This is more specifically focused on breaking through ultra stalls teams that rely on a core of Tangrowth/Slowbro/Toxapex/Chansey/(often also a combination Clefable/Quagsire/Corviknight/Skarmory/Magearna/whatever in the last couple slots).

Megahorn is 56% to 1hKO max Def Tangrowth and 87% to 1hKO max Def Slowbro (100% against most split Def/SpD sets), whereas none of the other moves even 2hKO them (CC has about a 10% chance against Tangrowth and all the other moves are 0% against both).

High Horsepower has an 82% chance to 2hKO Pex after Black Sludge Recovery, whereas all the others are 3hKO's at best. It also hits Magearna very hard.

Facade is the strongest hit against Clefable, but High Horsepower has a 87% chance to 1hKO after a SD boost if they are max Def, so I've thought about Sword Dance in this slot. Facade is such great neutral coverage though and one of the biggest benefits to running Guts sets, so idk about that honestly, but you could also swap in SD for any move except CC honestly, depending on what you want to target.

Since I was gunning specifically for Ultra Stall teams, I think i'll just start out running the 4 attack setup I have here and test that first, but SD over Facade does allow you to switch in after a pivot against something like Tangrowth/Slowbro/Pex/Chansey, SD boost, and then potentially 1hKO that entire team (even Corviknight/Skarmory). I'm not sure if its worth it considering how potent the set already should be against those teams and losing Facade isn't optimal against plenty of other things.

I forgot Heracross learns Spikes! I've been struggling finding ways to fit in hazards on the offensive teams I've been building and would definitely be interested using Spikes on him on certain teams.

I had no idea whether I should be Adamant or Jolly, but I tend to default to +Spe when I'm not sure and after doing calcs with Jolly it seemed to hit plenty hard against the things I wanted it to and I didn't want to sacrifice any more broad usefulness than I already was by making his moveset so focused on Ultra Stall. I could totally see Adamant just being better in general, though
 
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Finchinator

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OU & NU Leader
High Horsepower has an 82% chance to 2hKO Pex after Black Sludge Recovery, whereas all the others are 3hKO's at best. It also hits Magearna very hard.
SD + Facade outclasses this essentially. Your current set also lacks Knock Off, which means that you are not able to hit Dragapult for an OHKO and you are strapped for midgrounds, making Heracross far more prediction reliant. I think there really is very little room for creativity on Heracross as the things it uses are already very solid and defined, to be entirely honest.
 
With talk about the potenial rise of terrain in the meta. I wonder how much Indeede can benefit Alakazam as it can potential be absolutely nightmarish with Psychic Terrain out. It will negate Super effective or strong priority attacks it is normally very vulnerable to such as Single Strike Ushifu Sucker Punch, Azumarill Aqua-Jet, Aegislash Shadow Sneak and so on, and it can OKHO just about all of them after a Nasty Plot boost . If the opposing team does not having anything left that can outspeed it they are going to have a miserable time
 
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Nickos

Quack
is a Smogon Media Contributor
Urshifu Single Strike is an excellent Pokemon for sure.
It’s one of the best wallbreakers in the entire game, and has some decent physical bulk too, and can utilize U-turn when an opponent switches in, which sets it apart from the other scary fighting type in Terrakion. (and honestly, I would like to see a separate ladder where either pivot moves are banned or limited to choosing the Pokemon before the turn ends)
Urshifu Single Strike also separates itself from Terrakion in other ways.
-Wicked Blow relies less on luck and hits ground neutrally so you won’t be forced out as much against defensive cores
-Because Wicked Blow always crits, it’s also a 99% reliable means to bypass Iron Defense and Screens
-Urshifu being part Dark gives itself an immunity to Psychic, which is useful when Indeedee and Alakazam have very powerful offensive capabilities now
-Urshifu gets STAB Sucker Punch, which is miles better than Non-STAB Quick Attack
-Urshifu can bypass protect with any contact move, making scouting a punish for the opponent instead of Urshifu itself
-It’s Special bulk is much to be desired.
And in general, Urshifu finds it somewhat hard to switch itself in safely, especially with top tiers like Magearna or Clefable easily KO.
-It’s speed is also pretty lacking too. Having a max 322 without scarf can make Urshifu easy to even kill. And unlike Terrakion, it can’t come in on offensive Volcorona with Choice Scarf as it’ll still be slower and can’t tank a hit after Quiver Dance
-Urshifu doesn’t get Stealth Rock or Swords Dance, leaving it with less variety
-To counter how Urshifu punishes protect scouting, Terrakion can punish Knock Off abuse with Justified, which essentially breaks Choice Lock at the cost of some HP
Urshifu can also be taken advantage of by Terrakion itself if Wicked Blow is used on Terrakion, putting Urshifu’s team in a scary situation
I can't really see it being compared to Terrakion honestly, Urshifu is just a better mon overall and imo way harder to wall, I also find the last point strange, Terrakion can only really revenge kill Urshifu, never dare to switch into it to actually take advantage of it spamming Wicked Blow for a Justified boost, because it takes like 49.5 - 58.5% if Banded, no need to say what happens if it just clicks the almost as spammable CC instead.
 
I can't really see it being compared to Terrakion honestly, Urshifu is just a better mon overall and imo way harder to wall, I also find the last point strange, Terrakion can only really revenge kill Urshifu, never dare to switch into it to actually take advantage of it spamming Wicked Blow for a Justified boost, because it takes like 49.5 - 58.5% if Banded, no need to say what happens if it just clicks the almost as spammable CC instead.
The reason for the comparison is to showcase Urshifu’s Strengths it has over Terrakion and Weaknesses it has, and imo I think Terrakion overall is better thanks to its speed tier and diversity of sets.

The comparison is also there since people have been saying Urshifu might need tiering action, which is what a lot of people said about Terrakion when Home released, and for the reason of Terrakion having no safe switch ins to it’s Banded set and well, they are similar Pokemon (at least more similar than Terrakion and Lycanroc-Dusk).
 

Gomi

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Just popping in to say everyones being way too harsh on Magnezone and Scizor. Zone losing HP fire honestly barely matters since ID press+Tbolt hurts pretty much everything but
1592798681022.png
and
1592798713524.png
, and as for Scizor,
1592797930651.png
I specifically wanna talk about this guy a little bit more in-depth because the best parts of Zone are brought out by Dual Wingbeat Scizor. Scizor has pretty much never liked Toxapex, the best move it had to hit it was knock off and that might as well have tickled it given its SDs were just hazed away by it. Sure, it gained psycho cut, but now its losing out on coverage VS Ferrothorn, the fat grasses, Magnezone, etc. so I wasn't exactly expecting much out of that. And then I saw it ended up getting some new move called Dual Wingbeat, and well
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 356-420 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Dual Wingbeat (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 200-236 (65.7 - 77.6%) -- approx. 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery (Spdef because that's the spread I've been seeing the most due to Mage and Volcarona)
Needless to say, this move is a HUGE boon for the steel bug. Flying is far better coverage than Bug and Brave Bird level flying coverage is especially devastating. Now you might be thinking "Well, what about Steels like
1592798752720.png
and
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?"
1592798828540.png (Got the set from Punchshroom btw)
You use this and all of Scizor's problems just go away. I honestly haven't noticed like any decrease in efficency from this mon because Iron Defense+Body Press might as well achieve the same outcome but it takes a little longer. There isn't much to say here, it's a Magnezone but it also functions as a neat wincon. The one thing that's kinda interesting to note is this gen is heavily lacking in zone switch-ins, there's like Rotom-h for specs and press, Zera and Exca once unless Zone never click flash cannon/Body Press, and Hippodown if its Press, and the gens slow enough as to where zone can find easy entry on stuff like Toxic Toxapex and T-wave Slowbro.

That's pretty much all I have to say, these 2 do tend to struggle with
1592799799664.png
, Shed Shell
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, and the aforementioned
1592799738238.png
(if your zone isn't toxic or specs), and Electric terrain spam, but honestly that's not bad given how well they do against everything else.
 
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SD + Facade outclasses this essentially. Your current set also lacks Knock Off, which means that you are not able to hit Dragapult for an OHKO and you are strapped for midgrounds, making Heracross far more prediction reliant. I think there really is very little room for creativity on Heracross as the things it uses are already very solid and defined, to be entirely honest.
I've never played a single match with Heracross before. How relevant is the Dragapult thing? Looks like if you've already taken a single turn of burn damage, Modest Hex is 50% to 1hKO after the 2nd burn tick (may have calc'ed that wrong). If youve taken any previous chip or a few turns of burn you're likely 1hKO'ed by Hex. Dragon Darts from physical sets has a high chance of 1hKO'ing as well. Do people switch Pult into Heracross very often? I know he's immune to Facade/CC, but he takes around 60% from Megahorn and if Knock Off is standard seems like they wouldn't want to risk switching into it. Knock Off is obviously a great move in general and being able to at least trade with Pult in a lot of situations and nab some clean KOs if they switch into it is nice, but I don't know if it would be the end of the world to go without out if you have other answers to Pult. I love Knock Off as much as the next guy, so I don't doubt its probably generally best to use it and I'll probably end up using it more often than not, but when I made this set initially I was really just trying to make an all out stall killer, although I could see it just being strictly wrong to sell out that hard against one strategy when its still going to do a lot of work in the matchup regardless.

+2 Facade is still only a 2hKO vs a lot of the walls I was targeting with this build, which means 3 turns to nab the first kill and then you are a lot more likely to get chipped out after a kill or two (especially if youve had to use CC multiple times). Seems like with SD in place of Facade on the set I posted you could potentially clean sweep an entire Ultra Stall team, but in practice you might be able to accomplish the same thing with SD in place of HH, as the Ultra Stall cores really can't do much damage back to Heracross and the mons that could actually threaten it mostly get 1hKO'ed by one of its +2 moves, so the couple extra turns might not matter (also not all their sets will be max Def). Also, just killing a couple key members of their core is often crippling enough to where it doesnt matter if you clean sweep them or not and selling out so hard for that possibility could definitely be overkill that limits its overall usefulness too much. I think High Horsepower has some usefulness, but it really is pretty narrow.

Thanks for the advice! I'm completely new to using Heracross and could use the feedback. I'm definitely going to try out the options you suggested.
 

Finchinator

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I've never played a single match with Heracross before. How relevant is the Dragapult thing? Looks like if you've already taken a single turn of burn damage, Modest Hex is 50% to 1hKO after the 2nd burn tick (may have calc'ed that wrong).
Dragapult's Specs set is going to kill you and if you take any chip, the other sets will, too. It's not about staying in against it, but rather that you need Knock Off to prevent it from switching in safely against you to begin with as it is very common in the tier.

+2 Facade is still only a 2hKO vs a lot of the walls I was targeting with this build, which means 3 turns to nab the first kill and then you are a lot more likely to get chipped out after a kill or two (especially if youve had to use CC multiple times). Seems like with SD in place of Facade on the set I posted you could potentially clean sweep an entire Ultra Stall team, but in practice you might be able to accomplish the same thing with SD in place of HH, as the Ultra Stall cores really can't do much damage back to Heracross and the mons that could actually threaten it mostly get 1hKO'ed by one of its +2 moves, so the couple extra turns might not matter. Also, just killing a couple key members of their core is often crippling enough to where it doesnt matter if you clean sweep them or not and selling out so hard for that possibility could definitely be overkill that limits its overall usefulness too much.
This is why you tend to run Stealth Rock or status support with Heracross. It is easy to turn those 3HKOs into 2HKOs and 2HKOs into OHKOs. In addition to that, Facade lets you hit Fairy types, which currently can check both STABs + neutral High Horsepower. Flying types are another big thing, too.

Hope this helps. Of course, you can use what you would like, but I hope this at least paints the picture about standard Heracross and why it is as effective as it is with these moves in the tier.
 
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