Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v5 (usage in post #547)

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Gomi

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Do you mean Pure Stall or SemiStall?
And regardless, sure it’s nice, but if Hazards were removed from the game, the Stall spectrum would benefit much more than any other playstyle.
Not only is it harder for Stall to keep Hazards up against the opponent given the lack of offensive pressure, but also because that little bit of damage can add up when your entire goal is to make the game last as long as possible.
Stall hates Hazards so much that Stall teams would run multiple Hazard Control just so they didn’t have to deal with Hazards.
Yeah, Hazards are nice for wearing down the opponent for Stall teams, especially for against Stall team, but it’s way more important for Stall to keep hazards off.
There also are other members of Stall that can put Hazards up, such as T-spikes Tox and SR Chansey. Plus Skarmory has Toxic itself for residual damage against non-Steel types and non-Poison types.
Even in GSC, the fact that you had only 1 layer of Spikes with every team bringing a Rapid Spinner kind of shows how much Stall hates hazards, since such little damage (compared to now) makes a huge difference.
I usually refer to semi-stall since that's what I personally enjoy, If I tried to speak on hard stall i'd likely look extremely stupid.
This is entirely hypothetical so I don't really know what the point of saying this was.
Running multiple forms of hazard control is a thing on other playstyles too (volc teams in gen 7 being a good example), and it doesn't decrease the valuable residual damage stall gains from their own hazards.
Ofc it's important for stall to keep hazards off, this doesn't diminish the usefulness of their own hazards. Spamming hazards to limit switches and waste time removing your hazards is extremely important in wearing down teams.
Obviously stall has other hazard setters, but the more residual you can dish out with a passive playstyle, the better. Ruft's sample semi-stall is an nice example given it has t-spikes, spikes, and sr.
12% is absolutely huge in gen 2 given chaining roars together is a quite common method of wearing down the opponent, and I don't really get the rapid spinner point since the best spikers, cloyster and forretress, both had spikes and rapid spin.

I don't see how highlighting stall's problems with hazards shows that skarm isn't as good. Stall likes dishing out damage too and spikes+whirl a pretty nice way of doing that.
 
I usually refer to semi-stall since that's what I personally enjoy, If I tried to speak on hard stall i'd likely look extremely stupid.
This is entirely hypothetical so I don't really know what the point of saying this was.
Running multiple forms of hazard control is a thing on other playstyles too (volc teams in gen 7 being a good example), and it doesn't decrease the valuable residual damage stall gains from their own hazards.
Ofc it's important for stall to keep hazards off, this doesn't diminish the usefulness of their own hazards. Spamming hazards to limit switches and waste time removing your hazards is extremely important in wearing down teams.
Obviously stall has other hazard setters, but the more residual you can dish out with a passive playstyle, the better. Ruft's sample semi-stall is an nice example given it has t-spikes, spikes, and sr.
12% is absolutely huge in gen 2 given chaining roars together is a quite common method of wearing down the opponent, and I don't really get the rapid spinner point since the best spikers, cloyster and forretress, both had spikes and rapid spin.

I don't see how highlighting stall's problems with hazards shows that skarm isn't as good. Stall likes dishing out damage too and spikes+whirl a pretty nice way of doing that.
I believe pure stall did change quite a lot in the later generations and have to actually play for momentum from time to time, since the win con of walling the opponent team forever is no longer a feasible option with the ever increasing list of powerful wallbreakers.

Instead pure-stall have to be more active at finding ways to cripple the opponent. The most common way is in fact spamming scalds to fish for a burn.

Interesting side note, an unorthodox but very powerful way to do so was to use z-move dugtrio to snipe the breaker you can't handle, and that actually led to dugtrio being sent to Uber lol.

Comparatively EH+whirlwind is just far too slow. The return is also low since as stated by cuddly, stall teams don't have enough pressure to prevent hazard removals. That's why Skarm just was not very viable last generation.

As for how it does now. It's great defensive capability do mean it will always have uses. But it is definitely not going to be splashable at all for pure stalls.
 

Sort of, sort of not related to Stall, Weavile got a fantastic Ice move this DLC in Triple Alex.
This move's effective BP is 120, making it the 4th strongest Ice move, behind Sheer Cold, Freeze Shock/Ice Burn, and 5 hit Icicle Spears (5th if you count Ice Ball's 5th hit, but it's not able to be selected).
Unlike those moves however, Triple Axel doesn't require as absurd amount of luck or have special conditions, and also isn't banned.
To get all 3 hits, it does have only a ~73% chance of happening, but there are less powerful moves with worse accuracy and how forgiving it is since you still hit for 60 BP 81% of the time and 20 BP for 90% of the time.
This poor accuracy is also alleviated by accuracy increasing moves like Hone Claws and Accuracy increasing items like Wide Lens. The form actually makes it hit every time as the accuracy buff applies to each hit individually, and the same applies for Wide Lens, but only increasing it to about ~97% accuracy effectively.
This new move can make Weavile a huge threat to offensive teams, and a viable user of Hone Claws/Wide Lens for the accuracy of such a strong Ice type move.
While it doesn't have the power to deal with more defensive teams, it has a great speed tier where it ties with neutral nature Dragapult, and 120 Atk is pretty good.
Here are some sets you can choose from with Weavile.
Never-Melt Ice increase the power of TA and IS without taking away health from Life Orb.
Choice Band is risky, but can be extremely rewarding.
LO All-Out Attacker is also risky, but provides more freedom and flexibility for Weavile.
LO Hone Claws is like Never-Melt Ice, but increases the power of all its moves, including Low Kick
Wide Lens is the item of choice if you want to go Swords Dance and use Triple Alex, as the accuracy is still pretty high and you get slightly more than Life Orb*1 Hone Claws, and you can choose between Ice Shard to hit faster Pokemon like positive nature Dragapult or Low Kick to hit Steel types consistently.

It should be noted; Aside from inaccuracy, Triple Axel is a contract based move, so abilities like flame body or iron barbs, and items like rocky helmet, will cause Weavile to lose 3/8ths of its health to 7/8ths, or cause it to be burned 65.7% of the time if all hits connect. Although this would only happen in scenario where a Ferrothorn, a Rocky Helmet user, and Volcarona switched in. Thankfully, Weavile also carries knock off to at least cripple them back (and removes Rocky Helmet too)
 
Wide Lens is a terrible item and while I can understand the appeal of hone claws at least 3/4ths of the time Swords Dance will do more damage. Just run Band or if you want setup use SD LO.

Agreed though Triple Axel is really good for Weavile. +2 LO deals enough damage to OHKO Corvi and Ferro while 2HKOing all the Unaware Pokémon. The damage output is terrifying.
 

ausma

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Heya! As I did with the UU thread, I'd like to talk about a few of the move additions and create some more discussion regarding the additions to the meta and in what ways the meta is influenced by the influx of the moves as well as regarding who gets said moves.

1: Poltergeist

:ss/marowak-alola:

As the metagame has clearly showed us by this point, Alolan Marowak is a threat that is not to be trifled with, and has proven itself as a premier Stealth Rock user in the current metagame due to its incredible attributes (such as its Electric immunity, extremely relevant Fire-type, and mind-breaking power) making it an amazing offensive Rock setter. Poltergeist is hugely a threat because of Marowak alone, and actual answers to it come in the form of severing the utility of your item slot by running nothing at all, or bringing Normal types (as even resists struggle to contain its power). Though, despite the immunity, the latter is extremely unreliable, as Urshifu has been shown to form an incredible offensive core with it, which is capable of throttling even the metagame's most fearsome stall cores. In combination with the fact Marowak is no longer able to be Pursuit trapped, and how Ghost has shown itself to be one of the metagame's best offensive types, the addition of Poltergeist to Marowak's kit has alone made it a move to watch out for.

1593163893358.png


Also, the item reveal on use is a pretty cool scouting tool.

2: Grassy Glide

:ss/rillaboom:

Magnezone has proven itself to be a fantastic partner for its ability to trap and eradicate its best answers in Corviknight/Skarmory, as well as Rillaboom's ability to invite them in to begin with. As such, Rillaboom's actual power under Grassy Terrain has finally come to surface, but it's not only because of its great base 125 attack stat, but also in part to Grassy Glide, which gives it a STAB, terrain boosted priority move. Consequently, Swords Dance and Banded variants alike are finally relevant, as Grassy Glide completely circumvents Rillaboom's underwhelming speed tier and enables it to become a fearsome revenge killer and breaker. Its access to U-Turn allows for its Banded variants to gain momentum against foes that do not want to be revenged by Grassy Glide, which puts the Rillaboom player at a great advantage. Alternatively, its SD variants can even set up against things that would normally threaten it, as the possibility of Grassy Glide completely erasing a win-con creates a surprising amount of set-up fodder for Rillaboom.

Really, it goes without saying that Grassy Glide's addition into its kit is absolutely huge for it, and gives it the ability to become a lot more immediately threatening to teams.

3: Flip Turn

:ss/keldeo::ss/barraskewda::ss/kingdra::ss/vaporeon:

Flip Turn is an interesting move, hugely because of what exactly it was distributed to. While it provides UU's defensive water types with a momentum option, offensive squads find a lot more use for it in OU than those in UU, hugely because of the unspoken menaces known as Toxapex and Slowbro.

Vaporeon has been talked about enough already, as its access to Flip Turn gives it the ability to simulate the infamous WIshport Clefable; it's a pretty damn good compliment to some already cool Pokemon such as Incineroar and Kommo-O that could potentially be really cool on Bulky Offense teams. Though, I'm much more curious about the offensive end of things.

Keldeo had fallen off, as shown by recent usage stats: however, Flip Turn gives Keldeo the ability to gain momentum against Toxapex and Slowbro as opposed to outright fold to them. Keldeo has a really hard time in the tier due to the rise of Fighting resists, however, I believe Flip Turn does give it the ability to more tactfully combat fat teams. Secret Sword is also invaluable at the moment for its ability to directly threaten Chansey/Blissey with a special move; though, Slowbro/Toxapex completely mitigate this. It's hard to say what the future for Keldeo actually will be like, but... something has been on my mind now that Flip Turn is here to play: Rain Offense.

:ss/pelipper:

There will never be a wallbreaker quite like Dracovish was, but, at the same time, there was never such a useful tool for Rain offense as Flip Turn, which allows for the rain user to carefully arrange their pieces before starting to break. Now that we have great, general offensive partners such as Urshifu in the tier as well to support with breaking, I believe that Rain could potentially come back on the rise with the advent of Flip Turn onto Rain's currently best abusers and the re-introduction of Azumarill and Kingdra to the tier. I'm curious to see how this grows over time now that Rain finally has some actual breakers to work with again and the ability to play its pieces more safely and efficiently in the form of Flip Turn.

4: Triple Axel

:ss/weavile:

Weavile with Triple Axel is extremely cool, as the extra power it gets versus Icicle Crash nets its SD sets some really huge KOs that it couldn't have gotten otherwise, which is pretty big for it as a more frail, offensive Pokemon. I've seen some discussion on it in this thread already, and I'm inclined to agree it's best run with SD. Band definitely can do work, but I feel Weavile, currently, greatly prefers the ability to vary its move-slots, since I've found losing momentum in the tier at the moment can lead to you losing something vital if you don't play your cards well. Though, Banded Knock Offs into Rotom-Heat are not anything to trifle with whatsoever anyway. That being said, Ice/Dark is a really sick type combination currently, and I believe the extra punch Triple Axel provides might definitely give it more of a place as a cleaner in the tier.

5: Rising Voltage

:ss/pincurchin::ss/raichu-alola::ss/magnezone::ss/hawlucha:

Unlike the more loose hypothetical of rain, Electric Terrain offense is already back on the rise, and it's all thanks to Rising Voltage. Rising Voltage gives Pokemon such as Pincurchin, Magnezone, and--most significantly--Alolan Raichu some amazing firepower that can be invaluable in dismantling defensive cores. While Magnezone itself is amazing since it can trap some annoying menaces such as Skarmory and Corviknight, it's partially for this reason that Hawlucha also pairs amazingly with these Pokemon for its ability to ravage special walls with its menacing Fighting STABs. I still really like Tauntlucha a lot, though especially on this archetype, since Magnezone and Raichu are more than able to handle its natural checks. Pincurchin is also capable of providing both Memento and hazard support, making it more than ample enough of a terrain setter for its offensive partners.

Alolan Raichu is a pretty big standout to me in particular, though. Not only does it get an effectively 182 BP move (not including STAB bonuses) off of its terrain, but its speed doubles, giving it the ability to naturally outpace literally everything in the tier that doesn't have priority. Really, priority's existence and Raichu's general frailty is what balances it, but Alolan Raichu is an extremely potent wincon regardless. Its access to Nasty Plot, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, STAB Psychic/Psyshock, and Surf provides it with more than enough tools to be a fearsome threat that cannot be messed around with whatsoever.

edit: i'm bad, so i updated the aegislash example to something actually accurate. 5 am brain made me think aegi could be trapped LOL.

6: Expanding Force

:ss/indeedee:

I find myself relatively underwhelmed by Expanding Force, though. While it is hugely supported by Hawlucha offensively, it lacks the utility and abusers that Electric Terrain offense finds itself having, causing it to be a lot more limited. It doesn't at all help that Dark types are now necessitated in teambuilding. Indeedee on paper is a pretty sick cleaner/breaker with Scarf and Specs respectively, but with the Terrain craze/competition and the current metagame, it really can't do much.

--

Overall, we got some really, really sick additions with the advent of the DLC moves and the new Pokemon to the tier. To summarize my post, I believe that OU is honestly in a great spot for development, with offensive archetypes such as Rain and Terrain offense now having a ton of room to grow, and Defensive teams having a myriad of options too. Thinking on it, I feel this is definitely more than new toy syndrome, as there are so many seemingly viable possibilities in the tier currently, which is a breath of life it's needed for a really long time. I'm super excited to see where the metagame goes from here! :>
 
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Wide Lens is a terrible item and while I can understand the appeal of hone claws at least 3/4ths of the time Swords Dance will do more damage. Just run Band or if you want setup use SD LO.

Agreed though Triple Axel is really good for Weavile. +2 LO deals enough damage to OHKO Corvi and Ferro while 2HKOing all the Unaware Pokémon. The damage output is terrifying.
The appeal of Wide Lens on Weavile is that it effectively gives a x1.331 boost to accuracy on Triple Axel and boost the effective accuracy of Triple Axel from 72.9% to 97.0299%. This is because it raises the accuracy of each hit.
0.9^3 = 0.729
(0.9*1.1)^3 = 0.970299
Normally, Wide Lens is terrible because the boost barely increases your accuracy. This isn’t the case with Triple Axel since the accuracy increase is pretty meaningful.
It also makes a Sword Dance set less risky for Weavile than it already is. You already have to force a switch to use a Status move in Sword Dance or Hone Claws, and do you really want that hard work go to waste on a 2 hit Triple Axel?
 
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Anyone found some interesting/fun lures in the new meta? I'm particularly interested in lures for Pex, and if possible Magearna as well.

Saw someone earlier mention Sand Tomb Scizor which looked very interested and could handle both, but looking for more options since I'm worried about defensive synergy with Magnezone and LuchaBoom already on the team
 
The appeal of Wide Lens on Weavile is that it effectively gives a x1.331 boost to accuracy on Triple Axel and boost the effective accuracy of Triple Axel from 72.9% to 97.0299%. This is because it raises the accuracy if each hit.
0.9^3 = 0.729
(0.9*1.1)^3 = 0.970299
Normally, Wide Lens is terrible because the boost barely increases your accuracy. This isn’t the case with Triple Axel since the accuracy increase is pretty meaningful.
It also makes a Sword Dance set less risky for Weavile than it already is. You already have to force a switch to use a Status move in Sword Dance or Hone Claws, and do you really want that hard work go to waste on a 2 hit Triple Axel?
LO Icicle Crash hits is about as strong and accurate as Wide Lens Triple Axel but with a 30% flinch. LO also buffs Knock Off and Low Kick so if I was so desperate to not miss I'd just run that. Running Wide Lens misses out on a lot of KOs which is practically suicide. *Showdown damage calc seems to give incorrect results for Triple Axel so I used 120 BP Ice Shard and changed the name.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 335-395 (83.7 - 98.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 258-304 (64.5 - 76%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 286-339 (81.2 - 96.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-261 (62.5 - 74.1%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 274-324 (82 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 211-249 (63.1 - 74.5%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 192-227 (48.7 - 57.6%)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 417-491 (100.7 - 118.5%)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 321-378 (77.5 - 91.3%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 442-523 (109.4 - 129.4%)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 340-402 (84.1 - 99.5%)

"But Triple Axel might miss and fail to get the KO!" Sure but Wide Lens will fail to get the KO in the first place. If you don't want to miss click Knock Off, which is stronger than Wide Lens Triple Axel. There's also a huge number of Pokemon you KO with +0 LO Triple Axel / Knock Off that you wouldn't with Wide Lens. Don't use Wide Lens and don't use Hone Claws lol.
 
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LO Icicle Crash hits is about as strong and accurate as Wide Lens Triple Axel but with a 30% flinch.
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 188-224 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 204-241 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

LO Icicle Crash is less powerful *and* less accurate. 90% acc vs 97% acc is not really comparable. An average 8% power difference is also not really comparable even if it's not huge. It's more or less the same difference as going from NeverMeltIce to Life Orb.

Now of course, Icicle Crash flinches, and LO also boosts other moves. I'm not saying one is better than the other because I haven't used a Weavile at all since DLC so idk, but math is math.

I think a more interesting point is that +1 Triple Axel is stronger than +2 Icicle Crash while also having perfect accuracy (85*2=170, 120*1.5=180). But then you also only have +1 on the rest of your moves instead of +2. And no flinch. But.. perfect accuracy.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 376-445 (125.3 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 398-469 (132.6 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 188-224 (62.6 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 204-241 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

LO Icicle Crash is less powerful *and* less accurate. 90% acc vs 97% acc is not really comparable. An average 8% power difference is also not really comparable even if it's not huge. It's more or less the same difference as going from NeverMeltIce to Life Orb.

Now of course, Icicle Crash flinches, and LO also boosts other moves. I'm not saying one is better than the other because I haven't used a Weavile at all since DLC so idk, but math is math.

I think a more interesting point is that +1 Triple Axel is stronger than +2 Icicle Crash while also having perfect accuracy (85*2=170, 120*1.5=180). But then you also only have +1 on the rest of your moves instead of +2. And no flinch. But.. perfect accuracy.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 376-445 (125.3 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ditto: 398-469 (132.6 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yeah but a +2 LO Triple Axel is stronger than any of those which is super important as common tanky things can survive a single hit and KO you back. There's also stuff like Toxapex / Azumarill who fear +2 LO hits but kind of shrug off the same when you're only +1 and / or lacking LO. Normally I wouldn't advise running a 73% accurate move but the raw power is hard to ignore and you still have Knock Off for a reliable STAB when needed.
 
LO Icicle Crash hits is about as strong and accurate as Wide Lens Triple Axel but with a 30% flinch. LO also buffs Knock Off and Low Kick so if I was so desperate to not miss I'd just run that. Running Wide Lens misses out on a lot of KOs which is practically suicide. *Showdown damage calc seems to give incorrect results for Triple Axel so I used 120 BP Ice Shard and changed the name.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 335-395 (83.7 - 98.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 258-304 (64.5 - 76%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 286-339 (81.2 - 96.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-261 (62.5 - 74.1%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 274-324 (82 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 211-249 (63.1 - 74.5%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 192-227 (48.7 - 57.6%)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 417-491 (100.7 - 118.5%)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Seismitoad: 321-378 (77.5 - 91.3%)

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 442-523 (109.4 - 129.4%)
+2 252 Atk Weavile Triple Axel vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 340-402 (84.1 - 99.5%)

"But Triple Axel might miss and fail to get the KO!" Sure but Wide Lens will fail to get the KO in the first place. If you don't want to miss click Knock Off, which is stronger than Wide Lens Triple Axel. There's also a huge number of Pokemon you KO with +0 LO Triple Axel / Knock Off that you wouldn't with Wide Lens. Don't use Wide Lens and don't use Hone Claws.
There is without a doubt a big damage difference, and that difference certainly matters a lot.
Even with such a damage difference, I would still recommend Wide Lens or Hone Claws as alternatives.
This is because you ask your team to do a bit more chip damage so that your sweep/clean up isn’t ended because the game decided to end it for you.
Wide Lens also has the advantage of not having recoil.
While Weavile may be frail, it’s “Greninja frail”, where it can survive just enough hits to let Weavile do its job, and with 1/10 of your health gone each time you attack, you may just die or be in Priority range much sooner.
as just an example of the “Greninja frailty” and how important that LO recoil can be.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile on a critical hit: 208-246 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 222-262 (79 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 170-204 (60.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (For bulky Scizor spread)
252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 204-242 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (more offensive Scizor)


With LO, you now have a much stricter limit of turns you can attack with if you get damaged from moves like these. At most, you’ll get 4 more attacks before your Weavile hits the bucket.
With Wide Lens, you can actually tank these moves and even super effective priority from Scizor, then continue an assault for longer than LO since you don’t effectively have a 4-1 perish song on Weavile.

If your team has more trouble against defensive teams, run LO, and if your team has more trouble against Offense, run Wide Lens.

I will also say that being Inaccurate can be good for Weavile too.
If Ferrothorn switches in, you’ll be taking a nasty 3/8th recoil alone with a full Triple Axel, 7/8th damage if Ferro is carrying Rocky Helmet, 19/40th health if you have Life Orb but no Rocky Helmet, and basically instant death if all 3 are combined to summon Exodia the Forbidden One.

Also I’m still mad about losing games due to Focus Miss and Miss Blast being my only options left against a 1 HP opponent.
 
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16+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 170-204 (60.4 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (For bulky Scizor spread)
252+ Atk Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 204-242 (72.5 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (more offensive Scizor)
You forgot Technician. 90-110% on the 16 attack set and easy OHKO on the other.

In any case if you're more concerned about your Weavile's ability to tank Bullet Punches than you are about your sweeper's raw damage output then I guess we have some very different views on what a Weavile is supposed to accomplish in a match. I get that missing sucks but missing the KO on the physical wall is worse as you only miss 27% of the time but miss certain KOs 100%. Also Knock Off doesn't miss and LO Knock Off is stronger than Wide Lens Triple Axel so I think Wide Lens / Hone Claws is usually going to be a worse set.
 
What are toughts on Lycanroc? This dog is quite strong with close combat e could be a powerful physical sweeper

Lycanroc-Dusk @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Accelerock
- Psychic Fangs/Play Rough
- Close Combat

350 speed is enough to outspeed many threats on the metagame, like Terrakion, Keldeo, Urshifu, Hydreigon, Volcarona. It ties with Raichu and Gengar. For faster mons, it can be either a revenge killer or a late game sweeper


Dragapult:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 133-156 (41.9 - 49.2%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 261-308 (82.3 - 97.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Hawlucha:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 130-153 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 259-305 (87.2 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Hawlucha: 173-204 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Starmie:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 118-140 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 235-278 (90 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Gengar:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 156-185 (59.7 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 309-367 (118.3 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Raichu:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raichu-Alola: 177-211 (67.8 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raichu-Alola: 352-417 (134.8 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zeraora:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zeraora: 133-156 (41.9 - 49.2%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Zeraora: 290-343 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Cinderace:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 265-312 (88 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Kommo-O
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o: 182-216 (51.4 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kommo-o: 361-426 (101.9 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Pex:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 312-369 (102.6 - 121.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Urshifu-Single:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 411-484 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Urshifu-Rapid
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Crow:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 143-169 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 286-337 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Skarm:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 233-274 (69.7 - 82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Ferro:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 244-289 (69.3 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 486-575 (138 - 163.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tangrowth:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 126-149 (31.1 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 252-298 (62.3 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Weezing:
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 143-169 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 283-335 (84.7 - 100.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Slowbro:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 70-83 (17.8 - 21.1%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 140-165 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Chansey:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 543-642 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 1087-1279 (154.6 - 181.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Clef:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 129-152 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 3.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 256-302 (64.9 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Hippo:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 133-156 (31.6 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 264-311 (62.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Magearna:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 134-159 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Magearna: 268-316 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Alolawak:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 190-226 (58.6 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 377-447 (116.3 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rotom-W:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 140-166 (46 - 54.6%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 281-331 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Rotom-H:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rotom-Heat: 156-187 (51.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Rotom-Heat: 307-367 (100.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rillaboom:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 113-134 (27.9 - 33.1%) -- 92.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 224-265 (55.4 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 225-265 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Roc
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 448-528 (110.8 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mandibuzz:
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 143-172 (33.7 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 283-338 (66.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
You forgot Technician. 90-110% on the 16 attack set and easy OHKO on the other.

In any case if you're more concerned about your Weavile's ability to tank Bullet Punches than you are about your sweeper's raw damage output then I guess we have some very different views on what a Weavile is supposed to accomplish in a match. I get that missing sucks but missing the KO on the physical wall is worse as you only miss 27% of the time but miss certain KOs 100%. Also Knock Off doesn't miss and LO Knock Off is stronger than Wide Lens Triple Axel so I think Wide Lens / Hone Claws is usually going to be a worse set.
The concern isn’t about being able to tank such moves, it’s about how much health you have left to use LO.
If you are hit by a move that deals 78% damage (any move that can do such damage), you only have 3 attacks left with Life Orb, assuming your in a position where the enemy can’t revenge kill you
If you are hit for the same damage by another move while holding Wide Lens or Never-Melt Ice, you don’t have such a limit.
And yeah, let me fix that post.
 
Gens 3 through 5


Exploud got Hydro Pump and Terrain Pulse. Scrappy Boomburst is cool since we still have some Ghost-types in the tier (Aegislash and Dragapult), but I'm not too sure how well Exploud will do. It has good coverage and decent power, but it's a little slow and a bit prediction reliant just to get some decent mileage out of it.


Sharpedo got some interesting new moves in Flip Turn and Close Combat. Unfortunately for Sharpedo, Barraskewda also has both of those moves and a much higher Speed stat of 136. If Barraskewda isn't being used, then neither will Sharpedo.


Luxray is back and has some decent new moves. It can now use Thunder Shock, Electro Ball, Play Rough, Psychic Fangs, Rising Voltage and Agility. Play Rough is a nice coverage option, and Agility is nice to boost its lackluster Speed stat, but it pains me to say that Luxray still isn't good enough for OU. Hippowdon and Tangrowth will endless wall it and Luxray can't really do much to get past them.


Lopunny has a lot of new moves, including U-turn, Play Rough and Close Combat. This is great and all, if it could still Mega Evolve. Unfortunately it can't, and as such, it won't be good enough for OU.


Although Magnezone can no longer convenient trap Steel-types such as Ferrothorn with Hidden Power Fire, it did gain Body Press to partially make up for this. Unfortunately, having to rely on Iron Defense + Body Press to trap Steel-types like Ferrothorn makes it less consistent at taking care of them, it can still get the job done and that is very useful for a variety of Pokemon. The usefulness of the fact that it can trap Corviknight and Skarmory can also certainly not be understated. It will be interesting to see how Magnezone will adapt to the metagame with the loss and gain of some tools, and how the metagame will adapt to it in response.


Lickylicky actually has some nice stats with a lot of bulk. Unfortunately it's pretty slow and doesn't have a single turn recovery move like Recover (it has Wish). It now gets Hydro Pump, Body Press, Terrain Pulse, Steel Roller, Self-Destruct.


Tangrowth didn't really gain any new tools that are notable, but it does provide SS OU with a pretty sturdy Grass-type. It is an amazing check to Pokemon like Excadrill and Zeraora, and can be very annoying to switch into thanks to the combination of Knock Off and Sleep Power.


As I stated earlier in Porygon2's paragraph, Porygon-Z also gets Thunder Shock, Power Swap, Guard Swap, Speed Swap, Eerie Impulse. Nasty Plot let's it do some pretty decent damage, but a speed stat of 90 still limits it a decent amount.


Stoutland has Payback now. It has some nice coverage moves in general, but no way to boost its attack stat while also losing its best STAB moves in Return and Frustration make it hard to believe it'll see any usage in OU.


Scolipede didn't really gain anything noteworthy. It has Steam Roller, Cross Poison and Assurance now, none of which it'll end up using. SD sets could be cool with Aqua Tail, Poison Jab and Earthquake, but it isn't the strongest even at +2 and has no reliable way to easily break past Corviknight and Skarmory. It does provide Spikes, so that's nice.


Lilligant gained some physical moves in Solar Blade, Leaf Blade and Grassy Glide, but didn't get any new special moves. It does have Quiver Dance, but lost Hidden Power and did not get access to Weather Ball, so now it has no way to threaten Steel-types.


Krookodile gained a lot of new moves, a lot of which aren't worth using outside of Close Combat and Darkest Lariat. It's cool to have another Intimidate user and another Ground-type in the tier. However, offensively it'll struggle with Corviknight, Hippowdon and Tangrowth, and then defensively it's a bit questionable to justify using it due to Hippowdon existing.


Zoroark has Encore now, but it still has the general issues it always has and probably won't see usage in OU. Losing Z moves means it is a lot more reliant on its own stats to get surprise KO's with Illusion, and due to the bulky nature of generation 8, it won't be easy at all for Zoroark to pull it off.


For some reason, Emolga now has access to some grass moves in Energy Ball, Solarbeam and Solar Blade. While this may be cool, its offensive stats are subpar and with no way to boost its special attack, it won't be worth using offensively. Defensively it does provide Defog, but with its rather low defensive stats, it won't be tanking as many hits as it wants to.


Amoonguss did not gain any moves with notable applicabilities in Singles formats, unlike in Doubles, where Pollen Puff is a very good support move to keep teammates on the field healthy. Amoonguss fills a pretty significant void in the previous SS OU metagame as a Zeraora, Primarina, and Clefable check.


Mienshao has access to Close Combat and Blaze Kick now. Despite gaining Close Combat, it may opt to run High Jump Kick solely because it has Reckless as an ability to give it a more respectable damage output. Despite this, Mienshao won't be able to break past fighting resists like Toxapex since it lacks decent coverage options.


Druddigon got a few new moves, none of which are too helpful: Mega Punch, Body Slam, Endure, Dual Wingbeat, Scale Shot, Lash Out. It does have fairly respectable attacking power with base 120 attack and Sheer Force, and also has access to Glare and Stealth Rock.


In exchange for losing Return, Bouffalant gained Close Combat, Throat Chop, High Horsepower and Body Slam. It's surprisingly bulky and it does have access to Swords Dance. However, even at +2, it struggles to pressure Corviknight, as Close Combat after a Swords Dance only does 44-52%.


Volcarona fortunately didn't gain access to Earth Power like it was rumored to, and it didn't even really gain any notable tools besides Heavy-Duty Boots, but it is incredibly likely to do just fine with what it already has. Without Heatran, Volcarona is completely free to run Psychic so there isn't really any 4MSS to hold it back. Luckily, we still have Pokemon such as Chansey, Toxapex, Kommo-o, and Rotom-H available to check it, but will that be enough, or will Volcarona prove to be too much for SS OU? What do you think?
Didn't Lilligant get Pollen Puff this gen? It would be pretty decent, if it still had HP Fire or got access to Weather Ball. Pollen Puff isn't the best move ever, but it does let hit grass types, which is pretty nice.
 

PsyducksChili

Banned deucer.
first forum post in a while
last generation, i'd made a vr post about sun, and im gonna make another post just to spark up some discussion about sun, because its honestly even better, at least for me. cinderace is obviously a big reason why sun has potential this gen. it can break anything with cb pyro under sun, and still be able to hit shit its weak to with libero coverage. with cb + sun it can break shit it normally doesnt, and also still has libero to hit shit hard with stab coverage. cinder is really the newest edition to sun and it's really really good aswell. sun has a few new tools but it still sticks to its old formula. venusaur is still a good sweeper under sun and has new prey, like tangrowth and slowbro. torkoal is still the sun setter and it does its job pretty well. the team below is what ive been using lately. i might rmt it. try it out and tell me what you think.

Torkoal (M) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Lava Plume
- Will-O-Wisp
- Stealth Rock

Cinderace (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Libero
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Pyro Ball
- U-turn
- Zen Headbutt
- High Jump Kick

Venusaur (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Growth
- Earth Power

Excadrill (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Rush
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 184 Atk / 84 Def / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Hydreigon (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Defog
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- U-turn

Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Teleport
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic
 
Urshifu "Too much for OU"

The main reason I think that Urshifu is broken in the OU tier is because it can 2 hit KO every dedicated wall mon in the tier with choice banded wicked blow. It has zero switch ins aside from meme techs like anger point Krook or Phys Def Weezing-Galar. Perfect example of what I am talking about is fully phys def Quag taking 60-70ish percent. Also, no other pokemon can guard against it. The combination of wicked blow and unseen fist goes through everything. Screens are rendered useless because of the crit and unseen fist breaks through moves like protect and baneful bunker. Attacking, switching, and defending are the only 3 things you can do in this game and Urshifu shuts down 2 of those options while at the same time attacking very well. Below are some calcs illustrating my point. Thank you for "reading" me out


252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire on a critical hit: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss on a critical hit: 264-312 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth on a critical hit: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 390-460 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable on a critical hit: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Btw, its way more OP than Dracovish, because at least Dracovish has switch ins. Shoutouts to my PKS Fam! Peace.
 
Last edited:

Gomi

was fun
is a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor
Urshifu "Too much for OU"

The main reason I think that Urshifu is broken in the OU tier is because it can 2 hit KO every dedicated wall mon in the tier with choice banded wicked blow. It has zero switch ins aside from meme techs like anger point Krook. Perfect example of what I am talking about is fully phys def Quag taking 60-70ish percent. Also, no other pokemon can guard against it. The combination of wicked blow and unseen fist goes through everything. Screens are rendered useless because of the crit and unseen fist breaks through moves like protect and baneful bunker. Attacking, switching, and defending are the only 3 things you can do in this game and Urshifu shuts down 2 of those options while at the same time attacking very well. Below are some calcs illustrating my point. Thank you for "reading" me out


252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire on a critical hit: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss on a critical hit: 264-312 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth on a critical hit: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 390-460 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable on a critical hit: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Btw, its way more OP than Dracovish, because at least Dracovish has switch ins. Shoutouts to my PKS Fam! Peace.
Why would you use a spdef clefable to check a urshifu?
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable on a critical hit: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO
Not to mention a fat fighting resist+a fat dark resist(i.e. mandibuzz+toxapex) can very much handle urshifu with prediction
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- 19.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Mandibuzz on a critical hit: 105-123 (24.7 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
They even can tank a wicked blow or cc, in case you predict incorrectly, once while being able to recover later. If you want a more garunteed switchin, galarian-weezing fulfills that criteria nicely, and phydef lefties hippo can very nicely switch in as well
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar on a critical hit: 93-111 (27.8 - 33.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 46-55 (13.7 - 16.4%) -- possible 9HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar: 84-99 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon on a critical hit: 190-225 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's fine to think this mon is banworthy or has limited switchins, but to say it just straight up isn't able to be dealt with defensively is just wrong, especially since you can feasibly stall out its stabs due to how low PP they are, unlike vish.
 
Volcarona should get Scorching Sands for thematic reasons, I mean the place where you catch it in Pokémon Black 2/White 2 is under lots and lots of sand.
That said, we probably don't want to see that happen.
View attachment 257071
I agree, but that's pretty irrelevant since that's just speculation.
I would like other changes to certain Pokemon, but this thread is about the current state of OU and not about what you would like to see GameFreak change.
Urshifu "Too much for OU"

The main reason I think that Urshifu is broken in the OU tier is because it can 2 hit KO every dedicated wall mon in the tier with choice banded wicked blow. It has zero switch ins aside from meme techs like anger point Krook or Phys Def Weezing-Galar. Perfect example of what I am talking about is fully phys def Quag taking 60-70ish percent. Also, no other pokemon can guard against it. The combination of wicked blow and unseen fist goes through everything. Screens are rendered useless because of the crit and unseen fist breaks through moves like protect and baneful bunker. Attacking, switching, and defending are the only 3 things you can do in this game and Urshifu shuts down 2 of those options while at the same time attacking very well. Below are some calcs illustrating my point. Thank you for "reading" me out


252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire on a critical hit: 237-279 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss on a critical hit: 264-312 (61.2 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth on a critical hit: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 390-460 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex on a critical hit: 157-186 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Clefable on a critical hit: 189-223 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Btw, its way more OP than Dracovish, because at least Dracovish has switch ins. Shoutouts to my PKS Fam! Peace.
A lot of this simply isn’t true and some of this is pretty disingenuous as well.

Like when you limit the things that can’t take 3 hits to just dedicated walls, while also calculating for Specially Bulky Clefable, instead of Physically Bulky.
And while not traditionally used as a wall, Physically bulk Togekiss and Comfey (yes, Comfey is actually viable now mostly because of Urshifu though) can survive multiple Wicked Blows while healing off any damage.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss on a critical hit: 110-130 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Comfey on a critical hit: 114-135 (37.2 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Also Dracovish absolutely had no switch-ins. Seismitoad would be 2HKO’d by Outrage and Toxapex out of rain would be 2HKO’d cleanly by Psychic Fangs.
Urshifu doesn’t have switch-ins either with coverage, the closest being Weezing-G, which [Urshifu] must rely on Iron Head, Urshifu is harder to get in thanks to its worse Special Bulk and Defensive typing.

I would also like to note that there have been truly uncounterable mons in the past for OU’s history. Hoopa-U comes to mind first, and even in SWSH OU with Terrakion, which also has no switch-ins.
They had their reasons for staying OU for sure, but with Urshifu’s weaknesses, I think it will stay in OU as well in a respectable tier.
 
So what ability have people been leaning towards for Marowak? Rock Head letting you spam Flare Blitz is powerful, but the utility you get from the electric immunity Lightning Rod brings could easily be better. I'm not sure since both have real advantages and figured I should ask.
 

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So what ability have people been leaning towards for Marowak? Rock Head letting you spam Flare Blitz is powerful, but the utility you get from the electric immunity Lightning Rod brings could easily be better. I'm not sure since both have real advantages and figured I should ask.
To me personally, there is a lot more of a consistent use to get out of Lightning Rod.

Lightning Rod is generally better to me hugely because of the fact that Electric-type moves offensively are extremely common at the moment due to Toxapex and Slowbro being some of the tier's best walls currently; it's also because of the fact that most of these users, such as Magnezone, Magearna, Zeraora, and Rotom-Heat, are checked--if not countered--by Alolan Marowak's natural typing with an Electric immunity. Having the ability to freely switch in on these attacks and common users is huge for it, as it can either guarantee Stealth Rocks, or deal a huge blow with its terrifying STAB moves (primarily Poltergeist, which the tier has a pretty hard time switching into) and similarly powerful Earthquake. In a vacuum, Lightning Rod gives it the ability to more directly check some of the tier's better threats at the moment, hold more of a niche as an offensive Rocker, and fulfill the task of its role to an even greater effectiveness.

Contrarily, Rock Head is primarily of use with Flare Blitz, as you've observed. However, it's for that rather specific reason that it's more reserved toward Trick Room variants, where there is a much more direct emphasis on power over general utility. Rock Head definitely has its place, but it is much more selective and limited in what it provides Marowak.

Edit: Jordy did a much better job explaining Rock Head's application than I did; I'd recommend going to check that out for a better breakdown on Rock Head's use in the tier.

--

Speaking of Alolan Marowak, let's talk about a Pokemon that it checks decently well: Magearna.

:ss/magearna:

I feel that discussion on this thing has been surprisingly little, considering what Pokemon this is and what it exactly got coming into Gen 8. Perhaps the greatest change, though, is in fact a nerf: Magearna has lost its access to Z-Moves that made its offensive sets an absolute, snowballing menace. In turn, its Shift Gear sets have become a lot more high maintenance, especially when considering the Special walls that have returned with it and the newfound prevalence of Rotom-Heat and Alolan Marowak, forcing the user to play much more opportunistically.

Going into Gen 8, it has several new toys, though. Of these, the most significant is the advent of Stored Power to its arsenal. Stored Power alone has highly encouraged a way to circumvent the loss of Z-Moves in the form of a Weakness Policy, which gives Stored Power much more of a punch in combination with Shift Gear + CM sets and allowing for it to potentially win games the moment it comes in if you lack a good answer to SP. Stored Power alone also lets it muscle through its natural checks, despite requiring the user to remain opportunistic due to its all or nothing playstyle. Shift Gear + 3 Attacks is also just as good, as it takes more advantage of Magearna's amazing movepool and requires much less set-up to begin snowballing.

Similarly, AV Magearna is still pretty solid, despite not being as good as its more offensive variants imo. Magearna still has Volt Switch and great coverage/STABs to take advantage of, making it a great pivot on Bulky Offense and Balance teams alike. AV Magearna is nicely accompanied by Wishport Clefable as well, creating a great momentum core and giving Magearna great sustainability; despite stacking on Fairies, Magearna's Steel typing neutralizes the Steel weakness, and outright synergizes with the Poison weakness in the form of an immunity.

I've seen some Choiced sets running around as well due to Trick now being an option for Magearna. The immediate extra speed can be great for Magearna to revenge teams, and Trick enables it to immediately cripple common Special switch-ins like Chansey or Blissey. Soul Heart is a great compliment to this set as well, since, in the right circumstance, it can win with its classic snowballing tricks in a vein somewhat similar to Kartana (albeit to a lower degree of effectiveness).

Despite these developments, though, I can't help but find Magearna the most balanced and interesting it's been. To put this in a nutshell, the loss of Z-Moves has forced Magearna's skill cap to considerably raise, despite remaining efficient as it's always been. Because of its skill cap becoming considerably higher as a result of this and recent metagame shifts, Magearna users are forced play it much more tactfully. This has also encouraged a ton of really interesting, fun, but ultimately healthy experimenting with Magearna. Because of these reasons, I'm super curious to see how Magearna continues to develop in OU!
 
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One of the hottest discussion topics when it comes to the OU metagame right now is how to effectively go around switching into Urshifu Single Strike. I'll agree with the general idea that nothing really switches into Urshifu well since Galarian Weezing being a "good answer" is similar to Seismitoad being a good mon in OU as it checked Vish. That said Toad provided other forms of value to teams as it could check stuff like Rotom-Heat and provided Stealth Rock for teams, which made it much better than what G-Weezing is providing teams (at least through my experiences exploring the metagame thus far). That said there are still ways to deal with Urshifu for balance/bulky offense. The main idea I want to talk about with this post is using a bulky regen mon + Dark and Fighting-type resists. The two Regen mons I want to discuss are
and
. These two do a good job of taking a Close Combat from Urshifu and eat Pjab fairly well as well. However, they struggle when it comes to Wicked Blow taking a decent chunk. That said they are able to recover the damage thanks to Regenerator, as they pivot out to a Dark Resist that can stomach the hit. This is more of a stopgap for most teams as the strategy gives you 2-3 safe switch ins vs Urshifu. You can obviously elongate play by making the right calls like going hard Mandibuzz into Urshifu, but it's obviously a bit riskier. I've got a couple teams I've been messing around with today that I don't mind sharing to give a picture of what these types of teams could look like.


So we start with the Regenerator mon of the team in Amoonguss who provides the team with an initial Urshifu switch in, a solid water resist, and helps vs Magearna. I went with Slowbro next as it can pivot into a Banded Urshifu Close Combat pretty easily and forms a nice regen core with Amoonguss. The team also makes use of Future Sight into Teleport getting Urshifu into the game where my opponent has to pick whether or not to switch into something that will take the incoming Future Sight or CC/Wicked Blow well. This combination obviously means an Urshifu of my own is on the team as it's needed for the combo. It's honestly really good right now, and justifying to use something else is sorta difficult. Mandibuzz was added next as it's the teams sturdy dark resist, helps check Alolan Marowak, Dragapult, Volcarona a tad with BraveBird, and is running 200 speed + Foul Play to help vs BD Azu as we live in a world Amoong + Bro isn't enough for Azu. Next was Alowak which gives the teams rocks, helps with Magearna and Rotom-H, and provides a secondary breaker alongside Urshifu. The final addition was Scarf Magearna which gives this rather slow team a bit of speed control, help vs Stall with Trick that honestly comes in handy multiple times throughout a game.


This team starts out with Toxapex, who is a bit sturdier and more useful than Amoonguss. At this point we all know what Toxapex did, I went with Tspikes which made Alakazam a great second choice for the team. There are currently two solid grounded poisons in the tier (3 if you include G-weezing) being Amoong and Toxapex, both bulkier Pokemon that are a bit more passive nature. this allows recover zam to pivot in decently well, which is nice. At least on the ladder people will try to force in a grounded poison when Tspikes are on the field giving NP Alakazam a time to shine. Next I went with Kommo-o as it gives the teams Stealth Rock and is a solid Dark Resist to pivot into Wicked Blow. Next I went with Rotom-H which can be useful vs Magearna and provides the team with Defog. I'd have really loved to fit Toxic on the set and is something I will continue to, and suggest anyone using the team try over Pain Split. Next on the team is AV Magearna, which provides the team with momentum from Volt Switch, a strong steel/fairy, and is honestly just to good of a mon not to use. The more I play (around 150 post DLC games, the more I find myself just saying "opportunity cost" when I consider not using Magearna. The final spot is BD Azumarill, which gives the team a great cleaner, a situational breaker alongside Zam, and some additional speed with Aqua Jet so the team doesn't solely have to rely on Alakazam's speed.
 
To me personally, there is a lot more of a consistent use to get out of Lightning Rod.

Lightning Rod is generally better hugely because of the fact that Electric-type moves offensively are extremely common at the moment due to Toxapex and Slowbro being some of the tier's best walls currently; it's also because of the fact that most of these users, such as Magnezone, Magearna, Zeraora, and Rotom-Heat, are checked--if not countered--by Alolan Marowak's natural typing with an Electric immunity. Having the ability to freely switch in on these attacks and common users is huge for it, as it can either guarantee Stealth Rocks, or deal a huge blow with its terrifying STAB moves (primarily Poltergeist, which the tier has a pretty hard time switching into) and similarly powerful Earthquake. In a vacuum, Lightning Rod gives it the ability to more directly check some of the tier's better threats at the moment, hold more of a niche as an offensive Rocker, and fulfill the task of its role to an even greater effectiveness.

Contrarily, Rock Head is primarily of use with Flare Blitz, as you've observed. However, it's for that rather specific reason that it's more reserved toward Trick Room variants, where there is a much more direct emphasis on power over general utility. Rock Head definitely has its place, but it is much more selective and limited in what it provides Marowak.
This is a great answer and super helpful. Thanks so much.
 
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