I think this speaks to a fundamental question about tiering generally. There has been a gradual power creep in OU since Gen 4. Same for the lower tiers. While the tiers are use based, it's not that inaccurate to say most (not all!) things in OU will be broken in lower tiers. But when enough broken (from the perspective of lower tiers) things come together, wham, you have a playable "balanced" tier. The problem is that kids, and in turn GF, don't really enjoy making defensive mons because they are boring to play on cart when you mostly just want to click a SE move to win. This is a roundabout way of me saying that on one hand, accepting that this higher power level of UUbers means the tier is primarily an offense slugfest. Bans aim to make all playstyles at least somewhat viable but it often devolves into regenerator + clef balances and BOs as time progresses. It's a question of what people wanna play.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Although this is a reasonable assumption we cannot say this for certain as last meta lots of things were still broken. Pex was overcentralizing and many lower tier mons were brought up and used simply to reliably switch in to it without losing lefties on clef. Urshifu forced clef to run physdef and actually wall things, which clef doesn't want to be doing because it wants to support its team with wishport. Wishport clef may have been overcentralizing after a Urshifu ban because running wishport then wouldn't leave you more weak to Urshifu, and Clef may have been banned after. Then no one can really say in a meta without Clef or Toxapex whether it would still be clef-regen balance, as then clef would be gone and the best regen user would also be gone. Urshifu really strangled teambuilding as it often forced the use of a defensive fairy such as Clefable, Toxapex often forced the use of a Magic Guard user such as Clefable, and Clefable was so good at patching in the holes versus these two teambuilder threats that it often deserved or even mandated a spot on most teams.
At least in my eyes tiering should be about setting a power level for a given tier and testing things that push the envelope in some manner, but OU seems to be less concerned with that than just stretching the limits of what is considered an acceptable Pokémon and allowing anything that could possibly fit in that definition. There’s quite a disconnect in philosophy which is what leads to the frustration of seeing constant retests and slow action on obviously absurd Pokémon/Abilities like Dracovish or Arena Trap.
Dracovish and Arena Trap got banned anyways, so what's your point? Both were found to be broken and were banned, which doesn't seem like a disconnect in philosophy. Also, keep in mind that at the end of every big meta change there have always been pokemon left behind. Dracovish was banworthy before Pokemon Home, but the Council didn't have enough time to ban it before that rolled around and the new problematic mons such as Melmetal and KyuB dropped. At the end of the Home meta, Clefable was a huge target which didn't have enough time to exist before the HA starter dropped (they dropped the day after the Vish ban), and then subsequently the DLC 3 weeks later. Urshifu, Toxapex, and potentially Clefable farther down the road were all banworthy when DLC1 ended, but there's no point in conducting a suspect test when the meta is about to end and no one would even play it (contrary to when a generation ends), but the Magearna test, OLT, and Cinderace Retest occured before any of those tests could happen. Were each of these metas a full generation given many years to develop and ban, it is likely we would've seen a tier without Clefable, Toxapex, and Urshifu and with Melmetal usable, but we had only slightly more than 4 months, as opposed to a full year or even years as other metas get. It's not like the council decided Pex and Urshifu were manageable and not broken, in fact on the contrary. They just didn't have the proper time to conduct Suspect tests, which both Urshifu and Pex needed (not qb worthy imo).
Did you not read the “slow action” part of the post? Or did you get too tired reading my two sentence post to miss that key point?
Edit: Sorry for being a bit rude; I’m having a bad day. Doesn’t excuse it though.
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I can't wait to hit ladder up with my iron tail / toxic / rest / sleep talk zygarde and 6-0 teams as described by these well informed, heavily thought out Zygarde ban posts.
I'm terribly sorry, I didn't make this clear enough in my post (not sarcasm, actually my bad). I was referring to how there were still threats at the end of each meta specifically because there wasn't enough time to test everything, as opposed to not enough council action. These points could also be taken as, "there were still overcentralizing mons at the end of each meta because the council acted too slow," which isn't true. I fished this timeline and paragraph from one of Finch's posts in the 6th version of this discussion, where he was responding to a similar topic, albeit about Clef. It was September 20, 2020, which I think was right after/during the end of the Cinderace retest.
As I stated earlier, this was posted September 20, 2020. Right before this/soon after, Cinderace was banned. The meta was left to settle for 9 days until the Crown Tundra's official release date was announced on September 29, 2020, after which pretty much everyone decided that having an Urshifu Suspect was not worthwhile when we'd have anywhere from 2-9 days to play the subsequent meta anyways.
Edit: Remember that although it may seem like a big block of nothingness between the melmetal retest and the Dracovish test, most people then were crying for a Clefable suspect over Dracovish, even though your post states that Dracovish was "an obviously overpowered Pokemon." You can even see this as Joey Pokeaim's Dracovish Suspect video title literally has "Dracovish retest! But Before Clefable?" Although it may seem obvious now that Dracovish deserved to be gone sooner and Clefable was more subtle, back then during the time sooo many people were shouting for a Clef ban that the line between the two was blurred.
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Just to humor this, how does one define “boring” in the context of tiering? And why would it supersede the act of removing something in a metagame that is objectively broken?
I had fun with Genesect when it was allowed yet i can admit that it was too much for OU.
Just a question because I'm genuinely curious about this, I know Kyurem-B was Ubers at one point at the beginning of the black and white 2 metagame but then later got unbanned.So my question is how did Kyurem-B get unbanned in the end and how could that apply to Zamazenta getting unbanned? Because I think normal zamazenta would be fine in OU but obviously the only way to know would to do a suspect test but you can't do a suspect test without the council agreeing on it so what's the thought process behind unbanning something like a legendary to OU then?Although that might not be possible to answer since it was 3 generations ago and the council has changed since then
Because Kyurem black was deemed to be suitable for OU and Zamazenta isn't. Nobody has made a compelling argument as to how an urshifu with 138 base speed and great bulk is balanced yet.
I'm not a council member (obviously lol), but I think I can answer the question.
First, nothing is banned solely because they are legendary. Look at Heatran, Zapdos, and all the Tapus. They are not banned. Pokemon are only banned by their competative prowess. (If you are going to argue that those are minor legendaries, Game Freak gave most of the major ones amazing stats so they won't be balanced).
So Black Kyurem was unbanned mainly because it had an horrendous movepool. Outrage had a problem of locking the user in, and Dragon Claw had subpar power. On top of that, Black Kyurem had no physical Ice STAB. Finally, it had only Fusion Bolt as physical coverage. Its special movepool isn't much better, notably featuring only Ice Beam, Dragon moves, Earth Power, and Hidden Power (the other moves like Psychic and Focus Blast are too niche to use). Because it can't really take advantage of its highest attack stat, and because it lacks a real offensive movepool, it was unbanned in BW. This generation, however, it was unbanned because of it getting a semi-reliable STAB move in Icicle Spear, as well as Dragon Dance. The combination of Dragon Dance and Icicle Spear (along with whatever coverage it had) pushed it over the top.
In my opinion, Zamazenta-Hero is not really suitable for OU because of its great Attack and Speed, as well as decent bulk paired with Dauntless Shield. Zamazenta-Crowned, on the other hand, is easier to handle (in my opinion), as it is somewhat slower (though still really fast) and can't hold an item. A defensive Pokemon that have no way of healing usually isn't very good. It still has that base 130 attack, but it doesn't have as much speed. Zama-Crowned just fails at everything it tries to do. If it want to tank, the inability to heal cripples it, while if it wants to go on the attack, it can't boost its attack stat outside of Howl and still can't hold an item. I think Zama-C warrents a suspect test once the metagame settles, but I think Zama-Hero should stay banned.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...n-thread-spoilers.3671228/page-9#post-8632544
I don't mean we should keep objectively degenerate stuff like Landorus "insert 2HKO option" - I. I am saying if literally every good offensive option (like Kyu-B, Blaziken etc.) get banned, the same thing that always happens, will happen. The top of the ladder will be littered with Clef-regenerator cores and the cycle will repeat. I am all for balance, as I do see Lando and Zygarde as completely needing of bans, but the moment something gets banned, the community seems to have a rabid affinity for wanting to quickban every above average to elite offensive Pokemon.
I said "Convincing argument" not an argument made by some guy who spend 3 hours formatting his forum post
We have never, ever banned "literally every good offensive option". Even when the metagame was "littered with Clef-regenerator cores" the top 10 in usage was always 6-7 offensive Pokemon and at best 2 fully defensive Pokemon.
We do not ban based on preservation of specific things, but rather based on what is broken. I do not view Blaziken, Cinderace, Magearna, Spectrier, Tornadus-T, Urshifu, Dragapult, Landorus-T, Garchomp, or many other strong offensive options as problematic right now (I could make a more expansive list if you need things to make the tier less "boring" -- lmk!), but wanting to ban things that make it so that we either use the same things on every team (Kyurem-Black mandating Pokemon like Melmetal or very specific defensive cores, Landorus-I mandating Mandibuzz, Cresselia, Latis, SDef Moltres, or Focus dodging with Blissey, or Zygarde just being downright ridiculous) should be pretty straightforward. Magearna and Cinderace fell into this category in the old metagame, so they got banned. Same with Dracovish prior to DLC1. If you did not like the outcome they had on the metagame, then perhaps other things in the tier were problematic and I implore discussion of that, but claiming that bans or action should be outright withheld in order to try to pander to not being "boring" is silly.
I'm all for keeping the fun Pokemon we dropped down if it's possible, but trying to force it against logic and reason is absolutely not it. We cannot base tiering action on whims and theorizations of future stagnant metagame states. I want OU to be fun, proactive, and as hype as ever, but there's a right way to do it and your first post contradicts that way.
I think he actually had a really good argument there (though to be fair he might have spent a bunch of time trying to format his post). I can't say I agree with all of it, but he really did have a point.
Time to discuss rain!
One of the things I noticed in the usage stats is Pelipper's usage being the highest among the weather setters and it truly shows how rain was heavily used the past 10 days or so. Pelipper is obviously the staple behind any good Rain team as it not only provides Drizzle but it also functions well in providing utility with Defog and damaging significantly well with a 110 BP STAB move named Hurricane. I did feel rain's usage on the ladder was a bit higher but with sand's usage being noticeably low, rain really shined hard on the ladder as there was less contention for changing the weather. For reference, Hippo's usage is down from 12.6% to a whooping 4.51% from last month, Tyranitar dropped from 9.98% to 4.83%, and Pelipper rose from 5.22% to 6.86%. [On a side note, sand's combined usage is still greater than rain, but sand's usage has dropped a lot from the previous meta]
Sand's immense drop in usage also really signifies that the meta has changed from bulkier teams into hyper offense teams being extremely popular on the ladder. A lot of abusers of rain hit extremely hard in weather and are quite fast too and rain offense really breaks down hyper offense teams by constantly keeping the momentum in their favor via Volt Switch/U-turn/Flip Turn until the KOs are within range. Though Genesect's ban is a bit unfortunate for rain teams, I still feel rain is extremely powerful because choiced rain abusers like Barraskewda/Urshifu-R/Kingdra being quite strong against a lot of teams that do not prepare for rain.
tl;dr: Rain is one of the strongest playstyles on the ladder rn, and if you haven't built a rain team yet, I do suggest you build one and give it a try!
Here's a list of Pokemon and the roles done by them that I feel like are great on a lot of rain teams:
Utility:
Swift Swim:
Priority:
[both Rapid and Single work great on rain, I prefer Rapid in most cases though]
Damage: 
Regieleki checks:
Pivots:
(my apologies if I missed a Pokemon, I feel like these are the most important ones to bring up, and these ones are the ones I've seen the most + used on my teams)
Edit: added Volcanion
One of the things I noticed in the usage stats is Pelipper's usage being the highest among the weather setters and it truly shows how rain was heavily used the past 10 days or so. Pelipper is obviously the staple behind any good Rain team as it not only provides Drizzle but it also functions well in providing utility with Defog and damaging significantly well with a 110 BP STAB move named Hurricane. I did feel rain's usage on the ladder was a bit higher but with sand's usage being noticeably low, rain really shined hard on the ladder as there was less contention for changing the weather. For reference, Hippo's usage is down from 12.6% to a whooping 4.51% from last month, Tyranitar dropped from 9.98% to 4.83%, and Pelipper rose from 5.22% to 6.86%. [On a side note, sand's combined usage is still greater than rain, but sand's usage has dropped a lot from the previous meta]
Sand's immense drop in usage also really signifies that the meta has changed from bulkier teams into hyper offense teams being extremely popular on the ladder. A lot of abusers of rain hit extremely hard in weather and are quite fast too and rain offense really breaks down hyper offense teams by constantly keeping the momentum in their favor via Volt Switch/U-turn/Flip Turn until the KOs are within range. Though Genesect's ban is a bit unfortunate for rain teams, I still feel rain is extremely powerful because choiced rain abusers like Barraskewda/Urshifu-R/Kingdra being quite strong against a lot of teams that do not prepare for rain.
tl;dr: Rain is one of the strongest playstyles on the ladder rn, and if you haven't built a rain team yet, I do suggest you build one and give it a try!
Here's a list of Pokemon and the roles done by them that I feel like are great on a lot of rain teams:
Utility:
Swift Swim:
Priority:
[both Rapid and Single work great on rain, I prefer Rapid in most cases though] Damage:
Regieleki checks:
Pivots:
(my apologies if I missed a Pokemon, I feel like these are the most important ones to bring up, and these ones are the ones I've seen the most + used on my teams)
Edit: added Volcanion
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I know lots of people are having trouble with Spectrier, so I'd like to recommend an underrated (and underused) mon who can consistently check Spectrier as well as do some other cool stuff. The Bliss+Pult core is probs the best way to check it, but I like using up only one slot on my team.
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Toxic/Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
Max spdef Umbreon is awesome at checking Spectrier. Even though Blissey takes nothing from any of Spectrier's attacks, it can't do much outside of that (unless you're running Sball). Umb, however, can hit Spectrier super effectively and other physical mons hard with Foul Play while taking Sball like a champ. Boasting an already impressive 130 spdef and 92 hp, Umb's dark typing allows it to resist Spectrier's strongest attacks. Its ability to Wishpass is what pushes it over the edge for me. Although the virgin Clef can teleport (unlike Umb), physdef Clef gets 2hko'd by Sball, and spdef Clef gets 3hko'd. Meanwhile, the chad Umbreon gets 7hko'd by Spectrier, meaning Umb can survive even after it's started snowballing. If the opponent instead tries to Wisp+Hex Umb for even more damage than it can deal with Sball, Synchronize burns it right back, which is extremely helpful if you're running Hex teams, which I do with Umb. Protect allows Umb to stall a turn so it can heal itself with Wish, but requires hard switching in order to Wishpass to its teammates. I often switch between Toxic and Heal Bell, since both are great for different reasons. Toxic allows Umb to put bulky mons that it has trouble defeating on a timer. Heal Bell heals all status conditions done to your team. I've found this to be extremely helpful against Zygarde, because Synchronize can para it after it uses Glare, Heal Bell heals all other mons para'd by it, and Zyg also doesn't want to set up in front of Umb with Ddance or Coil because of Foul Play. Although I run Umb mainly for Spectrier, I've found it to be excellent against Focus Blast-less Lando i. Don't count on it too much against Lando i tho, because there are somewhat better checks and Lando i just demolishes everything. Overall, I highly recommend trying Umb out, it hasn't disappointed me and is a huge asset to my team.
Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 70-83 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 105-123 (26.6 - 31.2%) -- 18.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 114-134 (28.9 - 34%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 152-179 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Toxic/Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect
Max spdef Umbreon is awesome at checking Spectrier. Even though Blissey takes nothing from any of Spectrier's attacks, it can't do much outside of that (unless you're running Sball). Umb, however, can hit Spectrier super effectively and other physical mons hard with Foul Play while taking Sball like a champ. Boasting an already impressive 130 spdef and 92 hp, Umb's dark typing allows it to resist Spectrier's strongest attacks. Its ability to Wishpass is what pushes it over the edge for me. Although the virgin Clef can teleport (unlike Umb), physdef Clef gets 2hko'd by Sball, and spdef Clef gets 3hko'd. Meanwhile, the chad Umbreon gets 7hko'd by Spectrier, meaning Umb can survive even after it's started snowballing. If the opponent instead tries to Wisp+Hex Umb for even more damage than it can deal with Sball, Synchronize burns it right back, which is extremely helpful if you're running Hex teams, which I do with Umb. Protect allows Umb to stall a turn so it can heal itself with Wish, but requires hard switching in order to Wishpass to its teammates. I often switch between Toxic and Heal Bell, since both are great for different reasons. Toxic allows Umb to put bulky mons that it has trouble defeating on a timer. Heal Bell heals all status conditions done to your team. I've found this to be extremely helpful against Zygarde, because Synchronize can para it after it uses Glare, Heal Bell heals all other mons para'd by it, and Zyg also doesn't want to set up in front of Umb with Ddance or Coil because of Foul Play. Although I run Umb mainly for Spectrier, I've found it to be excellent against Focus Blast-less Lando i. Don't count on it too much against Lando i tho, because there are somewhat better checks and Lando i just demolishes everything. Overall, I highly recommend trying Umb out, it hasn't disappointed me and is a huge asset to my team.
Calcs:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 70-83 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 105-123 (26.6 - 31.2%) -- 18.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Spectrier Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 114-134 (28.9 - 34%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
+1 252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 186-219 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 152-179 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Haven't posted anything since a week before the new metagame so I thought I'd share some thoughts on my experiences thus far. I'm only going to be discussing mons that I have used extensively, if I didn't list something then I don't feel competent to share an opinion on it yet.
The Big Names (or are they?)
- I don't want to wade into the earlier conversation from the other posters so this is purely my opinion, for what it's worth. I have mixed opinions on Zygarde at the moment. More often than not, I find that Buzzwole, Unaware Clefable or Ice Beam Slowbro are enough to get the job done against an overwhelming majority of Zygarde sets in the current metagame. That is certainly not to say there aren't a plethora of other options to choose from. Situational answers like Kyurem-B Icicle Spear, Bulk Up Zarude or even Pheromosa Triple Axel can sometimes be enough to deter setup, or kill Zygarde outright. Zygarde's defensive utility is very welcome in a metagame where soft checking things is inevitable for most builds, but that can also work against it too - Spectrier and (to a lesser extent) Heatran's Will-O-Wisp can cripple this on switch in, and other mons like the rising Swampert can soft check it or attempt to burn it in the early game as well. The arguments about guessing which set or coverage it is running feels very overblown to me, but I think the "you name a check, I'll name a coverage move" game is almost always a wasteful exercise, and this time is no different. Can it beat any given check with proper planning and timely coverage? Sure it can, but that alone is not a banworthy trait.
With all that being said, there are several aspects of Zygarde at the moment that do worry me. Killing this behind screens is absurd, and restricts the pool of viable answers to about 2 or 3 at the very most. Zygarde is also one of the only sweepers in the tier that is arguably just as deadly in the early and mid-game as it is at the end - a point that I think differentiates it from a sweeper like Pheromosa, which can be deadly in the late-game, but is nowhere near as self-sufficient and needs its checks worn down. Zygarde can position itself against a passive pokemon that can't threaten it at all, e.g. Ferrothorn, start Subbing/boosting, and outright muscle through unprepared teams. Even if only mildly, it does warp gameplay to an unhealthy extent when I feel pressured to sac mons I wouldn't otherwise sac just to be sure I don't leave Zygarde bait in play for it to come in on and instantly put me in checkmate. I do honestly believe that the metagame has (just) enough tools to handle Zygarde at the moment, mostly due to how good Buzzwole, Unaware Clefable and several other common balance staples are in the metagame at the moment, but I know most people want it banned so I'm not sure how much longer this analysis will be relevant.
- Gravity Lando-i has virtually no counterplay if you're running a bulkier team, let's just agree on that. It does not have 4MSS whatsoever, it is effectively guesswork trying to determine what 1-3 of its moveslots are (and I rarely say this), and it has unparalleled freedom to choose what kinda-sorta beats it and what doesn't. In fairness, I have played a ton with and against Lando-i and there are definitely more games than you would think where it does not pull its weight at all and feels almost underwhelming, but then again, you could make the same argument about Dracovish. Tornadus-T, SpDef Dragonite (more on it later!), SpDef Mandibuzz, Latias and Blissey (usually) are good answers more often than not, so let's not pretend it has no counterplay, but aside from Tornadus-T and Dragonite, I feel most of its checks that aren't 2HKO'd would really prefer to be running more optimal spreads instead of bending over backwards to check this pokemon. Fun mon for sure, but I don't see it staying for long.
- Probably a hotter take but I don't think Kyurem-B is "ridiculously broken" at the moment. It is probably not healthy for the tier in the long-run, but the point of dropping these mons in the first place for "due diligence" is to see if the metagame can properly adapt to them. I honestly think that it has, but the question is whether it can adapt any more than what we've seen to this point. Buzzwole and Melmetal are currently surging for more reasons than just checking Kyurem-B, mons like Ferrothorn and Magearna are still very solid picks at the moment, and so are its offensive checks/revenge killers like Pheromosa and Dragapult. Again, my concern isn't that the metagame can't handle Kyurem-B, but whether it has exhausted all of the possible options for doing so and will remain constrained as long as Kyurem-B remains in the tier. Don't really have an opinion on ban/no ban, I think you could make a fair case either way if I'm being honest. "QB worthy" feels like a stretch, but "Do Nothing" feels a bit suspect as well.
- Offensive sweeping sets are really struggling right now. I use this mon a ton and the prevalence of Heatran, Unaware Clefable, SpDef Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Celesteela and to a lesser extent Corviknight, plus all the offensive mons that can take a hit and KO in return, are just suffocating these sets right now. I tried a minor innovation in Tundra Cup R1 which was Focus Blast > Draining Kiss, which brought me success as Heatran is usually the predictable answer to this thing, but it's far from reliable and I think you're better off using this in other ways. Specs is still a strong breaker but there are a ton of pivots available now, and unlike DLC 1, it isn't OHKOing or 2HKOing every single Volt Switch resist like it used to and dictating gameplay in nearly the same way. It will surely get better in the coming months but I don't see this being broken right now, or maybe ever, given the countermeasures we have.
- I don't really see the ban argument here besides "it was banned in the past". The general consensus was that Normalium Z sets pushed it over the edge, not its other sets, and I don't think the addition of HDB pushes it over the edge either. Yes, it gained additional coverage since its Gen 7 departure from OU, but without a boosting item, you won't actually be able to 2HKO the specific mons you are running that coverage for in the first place. Running LO is certainly viable but often isn't worth the tradeoff, as Pheromosa can usually tank one resisted or neutral hit throughout a game, e.g. an Urshifu Sucker Punch or a Zygarde Thousand Arrows, and retaliate with a KO. Running LO puts this on a timer in a way it does not want to be, and quite honestly, Scarf doesn't feel necessary right now and Banded is okay, but feels subpar compared to HDB. I agree that its effectiveness shines at the end of games, but is that not what most offensive sweepers (if it's tailored that way) tend to do? Clean up games at the end when their checks are weakened? I'm not trying to oversimplify its effectiveness, as it is surely a great pokemon in most of its roles, but I feel it is very far from broken at the moment and haven't personally experienced anything to suggest otherwise.
- I have little desire to use this mon at the moment. Between hazards damage, LO recoil, Flare Blitz recoil, the inability to set up on most of the tier and the inability to outspeed what it needs to outspeed even at +1 Spe, it's just not what it once was. I would not be surprised if this wasn't even on the voting slate next time around, because I have yet to see a coherent reason why this is even remotely banworthy besides "it used to be". I could see this being better with HP Ice as an option for mixed sets, but right now it is effectively the pokemon equivalent of a suicide bomber and I often find myself opting for something else, even on very offensively oriented teams.
The Underdogs (but not really!)
Post is too long already but I have to show some love to a couple other picks that aren't getting enough imho.
- How would you like a sturdy check to Landorus-i, Cinderace, Heatran, Blaziken, and many others (set-dependent)? Y'all hate Genesect, I hear you loud and clear but take a moment and put some respect on Dragonite's movepool and how many coherent sets you can make out of it. It has a ton of sets that others have previously discussed, but with HDB I honestly think Dragonite is less of a meme pick this generation and more of a legitimate utility mon that patches up holes in teams quite nicely. It can be tough for opponents to switch into this mon without fear of getting sniped by a coverage move and I tend to like mons that allow me the freedom to do exactly that. Ice/Quake coverage with Roost/Defog has been serving me well lately, you don't have to like it and I'm not nominating it for a high spot on the VR or whatever, but give it a try if you haven't already, I think it is well worth your time building around it.
- Highly under-explored mon that has always put in work when I've used it. You really need to tailor the team or its set to what you want to hit and what you're going to give up, but CB Victini murders things, I think Special sets are heavily buffed with the introduction of Scorching Sands for Tran and Ttar, and HDB sets are decent, though admittedly a bit weak. Like Dragonite, you can custom-tailor this to whatever your team wants it to lure in and beat, and the lack of pursuit plus no hazards damage is a huge buff. Underrated mon that I almost never see on ladder, but I think it has merit.
- Just want to be on record for the second time when it catches on to the masses that Specs Latios has no consistent defensive counterplay. You realistically have AV Magearna, a bunch of fat steels (Tran, Steela, Jirachi, Corv) that are 2HKO'd by the appropriate coverage move and can't do anything back, and a neutered Tyranitar without pursuit. It's kept in check by offensive pressure, usually being forced out by U-turn in a way that's reminiscent of Hoopa-U, but yeah, pretty fearsome breaker that hasn't fully caught on just yet.
Conclusion
OU is very enjoyable again and I appreciate the stated objectives of the council in trying to preserve some offensive variety. Honestly nothing feels so overtly broken right now that I think we need imminent tiering action, even if Lando-i is at the head of the list, but I'm interested to see what the second slate looks like and what will happen with Zygarde and Kyurem-B. Enjoy the metagame and vote tomorrow.
The Big Names (or are they?)
- I don't want to wade into the earlier conversation from the other posters so this is purely my opinion, for what it's worth. I have mixed opinions on Zygarde at the moment. More often than not, I find that Buzzwole, Unaware Clefable or Ice Beam Slowbro are enough to get the job done against an overwhelming majority of Zygarde sets in the current metagame. That is certainly not to say there aren't a plethora of other options to choose from. Situational answers like Kyurem-B Icicle Spear, Bulk Up Zarude or even Pheromosa Triple Axel can sometimes be enough to deter setup, or kill Zygarde outright. Zygarde's defensive utility is very welcome in a metagame where soft checking things is inevitable for most builds, but that can also work against it too - Spectrier and (to a lesser extent) Heatran's Will-O-Wisp can cripple this on switch in, and other mons like the rising Swampert can soft check it or attempt to burn it in the early game as well. The arguments about guessing which set or coverage it is running feels very overblown to me, but I think the "you name a check, I'll name a coverage move" game is almost always a wasteful exercise, and this time is no different. Can it beat any given check with proper planning and timely coverage? Sure it can, but that alone is not a banworthy trait.With all that being said, there are several aspects of Zygarde at the moment that do worry me. Killing this behind screens is absurd, and restricts the pool of viable answers to about 2 or 3 at the very most. Zygarde is also one of the only sweepers in the tier that is arguably just as deadly in the early and mid-game as it is at the end - a point that I think differentiates it from a sweeper like Pheromosa, which can be deadly in the late-game, but is nowhere near as self-sufficient and needs its checks worn down. Zygarde can position itself against a passive pokemon that can't threaten it at all, e.g. Ferrothorn, start Subbing/boosting, and outright muscle through unprepared teams. Even if only mildly, it does warp gameplay to an unhealthy extent when I feel pressured to sac mons I wouldn't otherwise sac just to be sure I don't leave Zygarde bait in play for it to come in on and instantly put me in checkmate. I do honestly believe that the metagame has (just) enough tools to handle Zygarde at the moment, mostly due to how good Buzzwole, Unaware Clefable and several other common balance staples are in the metagame at the moment, but I know most people want it banned so I'm not sure how much longer this analysis will be relevant.
- Gravity Lando-i has virtually no counterplay if you're running a bulkier team, let's just agree on that. It does not have 4MSS whatsoever, it is effectively guesswork trying to determine what 1-3 of its moveslots are (and I rarely say this), and it has unparalleled freedom to choose what kinda-sorta beats it and what doesn't. In fairness, I have played a ton with and against Lando-i and there are definitely more games than you would think where it does not pull its weight at all and feels almost underwhelming, but then again, you could make the same argument about Dracovish. Tornadus-T, SpDef Dragonite (more on it later!), SpDef Mandibuzz, Latias and Blissey (usually) are good answers more often than not, so let's not pretend it has no counterplay, but aside from Tornadus-T and Dragonite, I feel most of its checks that aren't 2HKO'd would really prefer to be running more optimal spreads instead of bending over backwards to check this pokemon. Fun mon for sure, but I don't see it staying for long. - Probably a hotter take but I don't think Kyurem-B is "ridiculously broken" at the moment. It is probably not healthy for the tier in the long-run, but the point of dropping these mons in the first place for "due diligence" is to see if the metagame can properly adapt to them. I honestly think that it has, but the question is whether it can adapt any more than what we've seen to this point. Buzzwole and Melmetal are currently surging for more reasons than just checking Kyurem-B, mons like Ferrothorn and Magearna are still very solid picks at the moment, and so are its offensive checks/revenge killers like Pheromosa and Dragapult. Again, my concern isn't that the metagame can't handle Kyurem-B, but whether it has exhausted all of the possible options for doing so and will remain constrained as long as Kyurem-B remains in the tier. Don't really have an opinion on ban/no ban, I think you could make a fair case either way if I'm being honest. "QB worthy" feels like a stretch, but "Do Nothing" feels a bit suspect as well. - Offensive sweeping sets are really struggling right now. I use this mon a ton and the prevalence of Heatran, Unaware Clefable, SpDef Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Celesteela and to a lesser extent Corviknight, plus all the offensive mons that can take a hit and KO in return, are just suffocating these sets right now. I tried a minor innovation in Tundra Cup R1 which was Focus Blast > Draining Kiss, which brought me success as Heatran is usually the predictable answer to this thing, but it's far from reliable and I think you're better off using this in other ways. Specs is still a strong breaker but there are a ton of pivots available now, and unlike DLC 1, it isn't OHKOing or 2HKOing every single Volt Switch resist like it used to and dictating gameplay in nearly the same way. It will surely get better in the coming months but I don't see this being broken right now, or maybe ever, given the countermeasures we have. - I don't really see the ban argument here besides "it was banned in the past". The general consensus was that Normalium Z sets pushed it over the edge, not its other sets, and I don't think the addition of HDB pushes it over the edge either. Yes, it gained additional coverage since its Gen 7 departure from OU, but without a boosting item, you won't actually be able to 2HKO the specific mons you are running that coverage for in the first place. Running LO is certainly viable but often isn't worth the tradeoff, as Pheromosa can usually tank one resisted or neutral hit throughout a game, e.g. an Urshifu Sucker Punch or a Zygarde Thousand Arrows, and retaliate with a KO. Running LO puts this on a timer in a way it does not want to be, and quite honestly, Scarf doesn't feel necessary right now and Banded is okay, but feels subpar compared to HDB. I agree that its effectiveness shines at the end of games, but is that not what most offensive sweepers (if it's tailored that way) tend to do? Clean up games at the end when their checks are weakened? I'm not trying to oversimplify its effectiveness, as it is surely a great pokemon in most of its roles, but I feel it is very far from broken at the moment and haven't personally experienced anything to suggest otherwise. - I have little desire to use this mon at the moment. Between hazards damage, LO recoil, Flare Blitz recoil, the inability to set up on most of the tier and the inability to outspeed what it needs to outspeed even at +1 Spe, it's just not what it once was. I would not be surprised if this wasn't even on the voting slate next time around, because I have yet to see a coherent reason why this is even remotely banworthy besides "it used to be". I could see this being better with HP Ice as an option for mixed sets, but right now it is effectively the pokemon equivalent of a suicide bomber and I often find myself opting for something else, even on very offensively oriented teams.The Underdogs (but not really!)
Post is too long already but I have to show some love to a couple other picks that aren't getting enough imho.
- How would you like a sturdy check to Landorus-i, Cinderace, Heatran, Blaziken, and many others (set-dependent)? Y'all hate Genesect, I hear you loud and clear but take a moment and put some respect on Dragonite's movepool and how many coherent sets you can make out of it. It has a ton of sets that others have previously discussed, but with HDB I honestly think Dragonite is less of a meme pick this generation and more of a legitimate utility mon that patches up holes in teams quite nicely. It can be tough for opponents to switch into this mon without fear of getting sniped by a coverage move and I tend to like mons that allow me the freedom to do exactly that. Ice/Quake coverage with Roost/Defog has been serving me well lately, you don't have to like it and I'm not nominating it for a high spot on the VR or whatever, but give it a try if you haven't already, I think it is well worth your time building around it. - Highly under-explored mon that has always put in work when I've used it. You really need to tailor the team or its set to what you want to hit and what you're going to give up, but CB Victini murders things, I think Special sets are heavily buffed with the introduction of Scorching Sands for Tran and Ttar, and HDB sets are decent, though admittedly a bit weak. Like Dragonite, you can custom-tailor this to whatever your team wants it to lure in and beat, and the lack of pursuit plus no hazards damage is a huge buff. Underrated mon that I almost never see on ladder, but I think it has merit. - Just want to be on record for the second time when it catches on to the masses that Specs Latios has no consistent defensive counterplay. You realistically have AV Magearna, a bunch of fat steels (Tran, Steela, Jirachi, Corv) that are 2HKO'd by the appropriate coverage move and can't do anything back, and a neutered Tyranitar without pursuit. It's kept in check by offensive pressure, usually being forced out by U-turn in a way that's reminiscent of Hoopa-U, but yeah, pretty fearsome breaker that hasn't fully caught on just yet. Conclusion
OU is very enjoyable again and I appreciate the stated objectives of the council in trying to preserve some offensive variety. Honestly nothing feels so overtly broken right now that I think we need imminent tiering action, even if Lando-i is at the head of the list, but I'm interested to see what the second slate looks like and what will happen with Zygarde and Kyurem-B. Enjoy the metagame and vote tomorrow.
Dhelmise
In what seems to be a running trend of me posting niche options (see my Audino, Calyrex, Aegislash posts), I've been utilizing Dhelmise to some neat results. Ghost-type offense is incredibly strong right now, and I also needed a strong offensive attacker with unique coverage and resistance to both Ground and Electric-type attacks. This Pokemon has been an absolute blast to use and has a usable niche in OU.
Dhelmise @ Choice Band (Life Orb / Expert Belt if using Trick Room)
Ability: Steelworker
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature (Brave if using Trick Room)
- Anchor Shot / (Gyro Ball if using Trick Room)
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip / Liquidation
- Earthquake
Let's go over the specific advantages that Dhelmise has over other Pokemon in the tier. Starting with its offensive coverage. Dhelmise effectively has three STAB moves thanks to Steelworker; Ghost, Grass, and Steel-type attacks. Anchor Shot is a fantastic move that absolutely demolishes Fairy types like Clefable and Poltergeist is an extremely powerful Ghost-type STAB that hits like a truck. Earthquake is an unexpectedly unique coverage move that destroys Pokemon such as Heatran and Regieleki. The final slot is a toss-up between additional STAB in Power Whip or Liquidation which has particular use for offensive pressure and coverage reasons. Dhelmise also has an absolutely incredible base 131 Attack, higher than Garchomp, Urshifu, and several other OU staples. In addition to this, Dhelmise has usable bulk at 70 / 100 / 90 with key resistances to Ground, Water, Grass, and Electric-type moves along with an immunity to Fighting and Normal-type moves. Its absolutely abysmal 40 speed makes it a very usable choice on Trick Room teams as well.
Give Dhelmise a try, especially on Trick Room builds. It's an absolute wonder worker and hits like a truck, and it will be even better if Melmetal gets the boot from the tier.
LO is one thing but Sand Rush makes the user immune to Sandstorm, so Dracozolt should not be taking sand damage.
Nope, Sand Rush renders Dracozolt immune to chip damage from sand. Furthermore, Life Orb-boosted Fire Blast can in fact OHKO Ferrothorn; I believe mixed sets to be almost certainly better than Fire Fang or Choice Band sets.
So I was messing around a little with 
+ as a defensive pair, and this is honestly really cool, I think.
Since Zygarde managed to fill several pages of discussion on how much of a massive threat it is, I’ll start by mentioning this core does not lose to pretty much any variant of Zygarde. You simply bring in Fini and scout. If you take an unfortunate Iron Tail or banded Arrows, you go into Wole. Even if they pack toxic, they can’t use it, and you click a free button and hurt something with Wole’s beefy 139 Atk. Each individually are a check, but together... even with team support Zygarde will struggle to find a proper in against a team running this.
Putting the Zygarde thing aside, these two simply happen to fit well together overall. Wole hates status in general and can’t eat special hits, and its already been well established that it checks multiple relevant threats, like Urshifu, Kartana, Rillaboom and, well, basically any banded mon you’d reasonably fear. Fini hates these; lots of em click grass moves lately, and the ones that don’t have coverage moves that can erase it from the face of the earth, and funnily, don’t risk a Scald burn from staying in and trying, thanks to misty. Alternatively, Fini is a classic that needs little introduction or explanation, not being nearly as new to the stage. If you want a mon to click Scald on Lando-I without dying, to Knock Off Spectrier’s Choice Specs, or add Fairy to your rain team, you know what you’re running.
Speaking of rain teams, they go great on rain!
I’ve felt like bringing this one up for a while, I just haven’t had the time to play with it as thoroughly as I’d like to.
+ as a defensive pair, and this is honestly really cool, I think.Since Zygarde managed to fill several pages of discussion on how much of a massive threat it is, I’ll start by mentioning this core does not lose to pretty much any variant of Zygarde. You simply bring in Fini and scout. If you take an unfortunate Iron Tail or banded Arrows, you go into Wole. Even if they pack toxic, they can’t use it, and you click a free button and hurt something with Wole’s beefy 139 Atk. Each individually are a check, but together... even with team support Zygarde will struggle to find a proper in against a team running this.
Putting the Zygarde thing aside, these two simply happen to fit well together overall. Wole hates status in general and can’t eat special hits, and its already been well established that it checks multiple relevant threats, like Urshifu, Kartana, Rillaboom and, well, basically any banded mon you’d reasonably fear. Fini hates these; lots of em click grass moves lately, and the ones that don’t have coverage moves that can erase it from the face of the earth, and funnily, don’t risk a Scald burn from staying in and trying, thanks to misty. Alternatively, Fini is a classic that needs little introduction or explanation, not being nearly as new to the stage. If you want a mon to click Scald on Lando-I without dying, to Knock Off Spectrier’s Choice Specs, or add Fairy to your rain team, you know what you’re running.
Speaking of rain teams, they go great on rain!
I’ve felt like bringing this one up for a while, I just haven’t had the time to play with it as thoroughly as I’d like to.