Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #2312)

The following is my opinion and advice going forward for the inevitable future DLCs that will supplement pokemon Games:

Magearna never should have been unbanned. This is not necessarily a matter of balance, but a matter of principle. It was banned for 2 months (Banned in August, alongside the QB of Cinderace) prior to the release of DLC2, where it was then unbanned and returned to the tier. Its presence further muddied the degeneracy of Urshifu (maybe not necessarily a case of "broken checks broken" but more of a "too many broken cooks in the kitchen ruin the format stew").

However, my TRUE frustration was the Cinderace Re-Suspect in September. Cinderace was Quickbanned in August and, if my memory serves correctly, it was CONCLUDED to be too powerful for the tier. Thus, unbanning it one month later with DLC2 was an absolute WASTE and INSULT to the suspect/re-suspect testing process. Don't test a mon and then unban it a month later.

I firmly believe that going forward, any pokemon banned should stay banned for at LEAST three months before being resuspected or allowed back into the tier. This allows the significance of the ban to felt, and the meta to adapt and reform.

My above opinions and discontent aside, I'll now more directly address the kind question:
Please suspect Spectier. SuSpectrier, if you like portmanteau. I actually don't know how to feel about it in a world where Urshifu is gone, but I feel like One Trick (literal) Ponies don't belong to cheese OU. My constant bar is Dracovish, which said "Not water absorb? Then DIE chompchompchomp" and could even two-shot water resists by a fearsomely overboosted fishious rend. I don't think that metric is a perfect parallel, but Spectrier really does just tear absolute holes through anything that doesn't resist ghost, and it's speed and self-boosting ability really allow it to just absolutely demolish teams without fear of getting revenge killed.

As for Cinderace and Magearna, I actually don't mind that they're here (for now). Despite everything I said at the start, I would've welcomed them back through a re-suspect testing process after their third month of absence (which would have been 1 month into DLC2).
As it stands now, I think Spectrier is the clear next target, but a watchful should be kept on the meta as always.

Also, I just want to thank the OU council for striving to make this a balanced and enjoyable game for everyone!
Have a Sunflora filled day!
 
I have a question for the players, which suspect should take place first between Spectrier and Magearna, and does either of them bother you a lot in the teambuilding?
My opinion is , I find Spectrier more annoying because it forces specific mons and can often beat the checks in the long term because of the raw power, the burn , the passive recovery of the lefto, take 6hp on the check with sub and being able to put everything within range of hex kill + boost .
It is also difficult to rk this , very fast and his ability to bypass the sucker punch (cinderace for example) with the sub. So for me it should get a suspect quickly.
Do not hesitate to give your opinion if you are against what I say or if you support my opinion.
Absolutely Magearna. Honestly, I'm personally not even sold on the "spectrier is broken" train. I find that there are way more solid checks to it than people like to realize beyond obvious things like Obstagoon and Hydreigon (e.g. specs pult, high spdef taunt users, any priority user that can actually hit it), and while it's annoying to build around, playing around it (if you're careful about your checks) is simple enough that I don't really have a problem.
EDIT: nvm played with specs a bit more instead of the subCM set everyones using this things broken

Magearna, on the other hand, is a huge wanker. Going by boosting sets alone, it can choose between Shift Gear to avoid getting chipped and Iron Defense to make life hard for things like Chomp, and then either Draining kiss for longevity or Aura sphere to hit steels, and guessing the wrong variant can often just mean losing unless you really stack up on checks. This is before mentioning specs, which while not broken itself, is a menace that always needs to be scouted, which just makes the boosting sets that much more dangerous. I don't think Spectrier's situational ability to mix up a couple of its checks with Specs vs CM vs NP is quite as much of an issue as Magearna's lack of hard checks almost necessitating scouting every battle it's in.

I personally view Cinderace as more broken than Spectrier, for reasons that other people have already said. Counterplay to it is very inconsistent, though, especially now that people are ditching U-turn for increased coverage. I will say that I think Magearna is more of a problem, though.
 
Last edited:
:spectrier:
I haven't been playing as many games recently bc I really hated the Urshifu meta, but I agree that I would highly prefer a Spectrier suspect test when we get around to the next round. It's been well explained what is broken about this mon, and there's already been so much experimentation done within the meta to come up with creative checks and counters yet between Specs and CM there isn't one (besides maybe the subpar Obstagoon) that counters it completely.
:magearna:
Magearna hasn't demonstrated itself to be broken yet in my eyes. It is a great mon, but I haven't seen as many Specs sets and most players prefer not to use Fighting moves like Aura Sphere and Focus Blast which I think is going to change in the future when Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Melmetal are some of the best general counterplay to Mag. Boosting sets are good but overrated, if they have Haze Pex or any of the three aforementioned mons, you're unlikely to make real progress unless you play ridiculously well. I would also prefer to test mons like Spectrier that add nothing positive to the tier before we tested things like Mag which has a healthy SpDef set that I think really benefits the meta.
:cinderace:
I am actually of the opinion that Cinderace is much more suspect-worthy than Magearna. While Magearna isn't checked by the same thing for all its sets, there is counterplay to each one that is naturally going to be on good teams, like Glowking for Specs plus bulky Steel for boosting. Cinderace has a bunch of shaky checks that just lose if it choses to run a specific set. Just one example, I saw a great bait set for Pex in some thread recently using Electro Ball. The only semi-reliable check to it is Hippo, but even then Bulk Up or Gunk Shot poisons can muscle past it and teammates like Rillaboom can easily take advantage of Hippo. I find Cinder to be much more overwhelming in building and in practice than Mag.
Agree with everything except cinderace stuff. Cinderace suffers from 4 move syndrom and in most cases requires a lot of prepping before it can start cleaning. Cinderace needs to run sucker punch or it gets revenge killed by spectrier and dragapult. Cinderace needs to run zen headbutt or it gets walled by toxapex. It needs to run gunk shot or it looses to tapu fini. It needs HJK or it gets walled by heatran. A lot of people run U-turn so that it doesn't get walled by slowbro and can keep up momentum. And if it is a banded set, which is sometimes ran to break Lando-T(another pretty good counter), it dies to residual stealth rock. And if it isn't Bulk up it looses to hippo. The thing about magearna is that both of it sets work. One misplay against a magearna is almost game over most of the time. The current most effective magearna counter I believe is toxapex and glowking cores, both who do not appreciate being tricked. Cinderace can be easily toyed with by rocky helmet Lando-T and slowbro cores. Toxapex and Hippo do a solid job and beating cinderace. Imo feel like magearna just has less checks and requires more proactive play than cinderace.
 
I saw a great bait set for Pex in some thread recently using Electro Ball
I really like running electro ball on ace sometimes. It's a 2HKO on both phys def pex and bro, even with no special attack investment. My favorite, though, is leading off with it against rain. If they lead pelipper they think they can get a safe U-turn off, only for them to get OHKO'd.

Honestly love ace as a Pokemon. Its movepool is very, very good, which is dangerous with an ability like Libero. I'd be really sad to see it go, but understand why it's still suspect worthy.
 
My opinion about what to ban next: Ban Spectrier first.

Why? Because Spectrier makes teambuilding a lot more restricted and just overall less fun. You have to have some Normal- or Dark-type or you just die, no exceptions. Also, outside of Blissey, most of the time you'd rather run something else than your selected Normal- or Dark-type. And Blissey has to run Shadow Ball to not lose to Sub sets. With Magearna, you have a bit more options, more than Spectrier, which is the main reason why I want Spectrier banned first.

Another reason is that Spectrier's presence makes so many mons less viable than they should be. For example, stuff like Gengar, Blacephalon, and Aegislash severely suffers from Spectrier's presence. This also restricts teambuilding. And don't even get me started on actually playing against Spectrier. It just makes the tier a lot more unfun for me. So, from a selfish perspective, I want Spectrier banned. Magearna is insanely difficult to switch into with Specs and is a stupid sweeper with SG+CM, but I'm actually kinda okay with it here. Same thing goes for Cinderace.
 
Why is garchomp so big in this meta? Is it because of the tanky set or the sweeper set, or a mix of both?
Mostly the LO SD set. It is exceptionally powerful with SD, has EdgeQuake coverage, and can either take advantage of the switches to set rocks or boost its speed with Scale Shot (this also gives it another attacking move). I've used the sweeper set and it is quite effective. I haven't used the tank set but I'm willing to try.
 

Zneon

Smash!
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor
Moderator
Why is garchomp so big in this meta? Is it because of the tanky set or the sweeper set, or a mix of both?
It has many great qualities. It's very fast, has a great offensive typing that also does work defensively and great bulk alongside a great movepool. Its not really one set that makes Garchomp so good but a combination of its Tank set and SD set, both are top tier sets in the metagame I feel and I don't think Garchomp's success can really be pinned to one set, its a combination of the sets it uses as it has very important niches offensively and defensively. Mixed Attacker Garchomp is also really good despite seeing much less usage compared to the other two sets that it runs.

Hope this helped! :blobthumbsup:
 
It has many great qualities. It's very fast, has a great offensive typing that also does work defensively and great bulk alongside a great movepool. Its not really one set that makes Garchomp so good but a combination of its Tank set and SD set, both are top tier sets in the metagame I feel and I don't think Garchomp's success can really be pinned to one set, its a combination of the sets it uses as it has very important niches offensively and defensively. Mixed Attacker Garchomp is also really good despite seeing much less usage compared to the other two sets that it runs.

Hope this helped! :blobthumbsup:
Yeah it did thanks
 

Katy

What goes around comes around!
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Contributor
Obstagoon is a really interesting pokemon in the current metagame and a great offensive check to Spectrier, and with the removal of Urshifu-S I feel like this pokemon has potential in the current metagame, as it has a decent speed-tier and with Guts and Flame Orb it has a great offensive presence, especially after a Guts-boost its attack-stat is actually pretty decent and Obstagoon proves itself to be a great pokemon with access to the important move in Knock Off and a bunch of utility, which i'll talk later about:

:ss/obstagoon:
Obstagoon @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature

- Facade
- Knock Off
- Close Combat

- Switcheroo

Facade and Knock off are its important dual-stab options whereas Close Combat gives it a measure to hit Heatran, and Melmetal for super-effective damage. Switcheroo gives it a measure to cripple physical threats such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, Dragonite, Galarian-Zapdos.

There are a bunch of other utility or attacking options, which are definitely useable in the current metagame:

Obstruct: gives a way to scout and to lower the opposing Pokemons defense by 2 stages, which can be crucial for netting in some OHKOes on very defensive pokemon.
Parting Shot: can help its teampartners to get in and setup more safely on really offensive oriented teams.
Fire Punch: can help versus Ferrothorn and Magearna especially, but is a more niche option on its set
Gunk Shot: can hit Fairy-types such as Clefable, Tapu Fini, and the less common Tapu Bulu. It can also dish out alot of damage on Grass-types such as Rillaboom and Tangrowth.
Ice Punch: more niche but can hit Landorus-T, Hippowdon, and Garchomp.
Bulk Up: great boosting-option on offensive oriented Obstagoon, as after a Bulk Up its Attack and Defense gets boosted alike and it can dish out a lot of damage onto opposing pokemon.

With that being said, I feel Obstagoon is a pokemon which stands out right now as a great option on teams, be it as a more supportive variant or an offensive version of it and I feel this Pokemon could be explored much more in the current metagame, as with the prominent Threat in Spectrier it really stands out as a great Pokemon against it.

thanks for reading and have a great day!
 
Last edited:
I have a question for the players, which suspect should take place first between Spectrier and Magearna, and does either of them bother you a lot in the teambuilding?
My opinion is , I find Spectrier more annoying because it forces specific mons and can often beat the checks in the long term because of the raw power, the burn , the passive recovery of the lefto, take 6hp on the check with sub and being able to put everything within range of hex kill + boost .
It is also difficult to rk this , very fast and his ability to bypass the sucker punch (cinderace for example) with the sub. So for me it should get a suspect quickly.
Do not hesitate to give your opinion if you are against what I say or if you support my opinion.
Spectrier 1000%, I think restricted teambuilding is the primary issue with OU right now. Removing Urshifu helps for sure, but spectrier makes it so you basically have to build a 5 mon team + 1 spectrier check. Defensive hydreigon should not be an OU set by any stretch of my imagination. The fact that this a thing is undeniable proof that Spectrier makes teambuilding worse.

Magearna, on the other hand, has far more splashable checks like slowking-g or pex or trick scarf. I don’t even think setup sets are that strong without screens since they require so much to get off the ground. Specs is the real threat.
 
Spectrier 1000%, I think restricted teambuilding is the primary issue with OU right now. Removing Urshifu helps for sure, but spectrier makes it so you basically have to build a 5 mon team + 1 spectrier check. Defensive hydreigon should not be an OU set by any stretch of my imagination. The fact that this a thing is undeniable proof that Spectrier makes teambuilding worse.

Magearna, on the other hand, has far more splashable checks like slowking-g or pex or trick. I don’t even think setup sets are that strong without screens since they require so much to get off the ground. Specs is the real threat.
Defensive Hydreigon absolutely is an OU set and it was a decent set before Spectrier and in gen 7 same goes for Mandibuzz. Sure, it helps that those two check Spectrier but they aren't used solely for that reason they are generally good pokemon overall. Yes Spectrier is restrictive but there are a lot of solid OU viable dark types, even more so now that urshifu is gone from Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Obstagoon to Tyranitar, Bisharp TTar and even Daunt which can all serve as a checks.

I also disagree that magearna is worse than Spectrier. She is a knightmare to deal with in an actual battle due to her sheer versatility and unpredictability. She has many niche utility/surprise sets that ruin most of her counters apart from her standard Specs, sweeper and AV. It is always a gamble which attacks she runs as she has access to pretty much all the coverage moves she needs from ice beam and thunderbolt to fleur cannon, draining kiss, stored power etc. I have found her to be much worse than Spectrier due to her versatility.
 
Spectrier is a pretty interesting case. On one hand, Urshifu was the best offensive counterplay against spectrier. On the other hand, the bear was also one of its best offensive partners, breaking through the normal and dark types that wall the horse. This creates an odd situation where spectrier's viability might not change at all. The Shifu ban feels like a net gain of 0 to me. I've been on the fence about spectrier for a while, and I'm still not sure if it's completely broken or not, but a suspect test probably won't hurt.
 
Defensive Hydreigon absolutely is an OU set and it was a decent set before Spectrier and in gen 7 same goes for Mandibuzz. Sure, it helps that those two check Spectrier but they aren't used solely for that reason they are generally good pokemon overall. Yes Spectrier is restrictive but there are a lot of solid OU viable dark types, even more so now that urshifu is gone from Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Obstagoon to Tyranitar, Bisharp TTar and even Daunt which can all serve as a checks.

I also disagree that magearna is worse than Spectrier. She is a knightmare to deal with in an actual battle due to her sheer versatility and unpredictability. She has many niche utility/surprise sets that ruin most of her counters apart from her standard Specs, sweeper and AV. It is always a gamble which attacks she runs as she has access to pretty much all the coverage moves she needs from ice beam and thunderbolt to fleur cannon, draining kiss, stored power etc. I have found her to be much worse than Spectrier due to her versatility.
Fair points. However, in my opinion Spectrier greatly restricts teambuilding creativity and diversity. Some sets are downright unviable due to Spectrier existing, while others (like freaking Shadow Ball Blissey) are used solely because of Spectrier. Also, a lot of mons have to sacrifice a lot to fit a move to deal with Spectrier (Shadow Ball Blissey). Parroting what Bugboy said, although Magearna is definately a pain to account for in the teambuilder, its checks are a lot more viable and splashable than Spectrier's, like Heatran and Ferrothorn.
 
To be honest I find neither of Spectrier nor Magearna to be that broken. Then again, I spam a specially defensive Toxapex a lot and it just straight up shuts down shift gear + calm mind Magearna while annoying Spectrier with knock off. Also, for some reason I haven't encountered a single specs Magearna whenever I play. Only shift gear, scarf or av. Garchomp and Landorus are back in the game now and those two just love earthquakeing Magearna to death

Personally, while I think Spectrier is hilariously broken, I find it to be a somewhat comforting presence in ou. I mean, pokemon like Hydreigon and Tyranitar (which I believed dropped to uu) got new leases in ou because of the thing. It's not like the things that deal with Spectrier are only used for that sole reason. Hydreigon is the sole exception but really, Tyranitar is still Excadrill's babysitter while Blissey is still a fat blob while Mandibuzz just adds to the large collection of birds that are in ou. Suspect worthy? Maybe. Ban worthy? Still a bit torn on that one
 
To be honest I find neither of Spectrier nor Magearna to be that broken. Then again, I spam a specially defensive Toxapex a lot and it just straight up shuts down shift gear + calm mind Magearna while annoying Spectrier with knock off. Also, for some reason I haven't encountered a single specs Magearna whenever I play. Only shift gear, scarf or av. Garchomp and Landorus are back in the game now and those two just love earthquakeing Magearna to death

Personally, while I think Spectrier is hilariously broken, I find it to be a somewhat comforting presence in ou. I mean, pokemon like Hydreigon and Tyranitar (which I believed dropped to uu) got new leases in ou because of the thing. It's not like the things that deal with Spectrier are only used for that sole reason. Hydreigon is the sole exception but really, Tyranitar is still Excadrill's babysitter while Blissey is still a fat blob while Mandibuzz just adds to the large collection of birds that are in ou. Suspect worthy? Maybe. Ban worthy? Still a bit torn on that one
Hydreigon and Tyranitar did get new OU niches because of it, but remember other Ghost types lost their niches in OU, like Aegislash, Gengar, and Blacephalon. Pretty much their only use now is as a ghost type that can sub up on and beat Blissey more reliably than Spectrier.
 
Also, a lot of mons have to sacrifice a lot to fit a move to deal with Spectrier (Shadow Ball Blissey)
Blissey has to sacrifice Seismic Toss to hit Spectrier, which in practice, doesn't strike me as a huge loss. The average damage output with Toss might be a bit higher against low-HP defensive, but the idea has always just been to chip things down rather than do major amounts of damage, and in exchange for checking Spectrier, you're only really losing out on your chip on Heatran, Pex and Obstagoon on the switchin, and as a bonus, you avoid helmet/barbs chip. (there's also the 2 attacks set but I have no idea why people would use it, ladders fuckin weird)

Not many other pokemon that I can think of have to stretch too far out of what they'd normally do to get coverage against spectrier or shut it down. But even besides that, all pokemon run coverage moves based on what threats they need to cover. Moltres would never run Scorching Sands if not for Heatran; that doesn't make Heatran broken. In older gens, the only reason many pokemon ran HP ice was because of Lando and Gliscor; neither of them were broken either. I'm not convinced the existence of Shadow Ball Blissey to check a powerful ghost type is proof that Spectrier is broken in itself.
 
Hydreigon and Tyranitar did get new OU niches because of it, but remember other Ghost types lost their niches in OU, like Aegislash, Gengar, and Blacephalon. Pretty much their only use now is as a ghost type that can sub up on and beat Blissey more reliably than Spectrier.
I don't really think aegislash shares all niches with spectrier, since it can still use a physical set with priority, and king's shield is nice now that urshifu is out.
In my opinion gengar could actually stand to be used less as an all out attacker, as spectrier outclasses it there, but to look more into its' moves that enable it to pressure certain defensive teams more efficiently than spectrier, like tricking black sludges or scarfs,taunt, encore,corrosive gas, pain splitting a blissey which can even put in work if blissey has shadow ball, destiny bond when it's chipped to lure a slow check to the rest of your team. The real problem with gengar IMO is that its potential as a stallbreaker is much better than spectrier if you use the right set, but stall isn't that popular in the meta, and it's attacking set is outclassed by it.
Blacephalon is pretty out of luck, it's fire typing doesn't really bring much, and it's only other nice side is tricking
 
Last edited:

Finchinator

You’re so golden
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderatoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis the defending BW Circuit Champion
Moderator
Magearna’s set-up sets aren’t remotely problematic to me. There is pretty massive overlap in counterplay right now and the Weakness Policy set, which more people than ever seem to be complaining about, is particularly inconsistent. The metagame easily has the tools to minimize it.

Specs Magearna is the single best set and the closest to being suspect worthy, much like the DLC2 metagame. Specs is ridiculously good Imo, but it’s also not seeing nearly enough usage or discussion here. This coupled with Volt immunities being mandatory as is and there being a surplus of Fleur resists may leave it more manageable than DLC1, but even then I get why people would discuss this set at least. Assertions that it should have never been unbanned or that it makes the tier unplayable are all far off base. Magearna is clearly an amazing Pokemon, but it at best toes the line of suspect worthy without being blatantly problematic.

Cinderace and Spectrier are both more pressing to me. I’m not sure which I find harder to handle — probably Cinderace, but my mind isn’t 100% made and the metagame is still developing. Will post here once I’ve refined my opinion on that front.
 
The downplay of these mons in the past comments is astonishing. The amount of teambuilding constraint Spectrier and Magearna alone, not even Cinderace in the discussion another animal touched on later, puts the tier in an awful state. Your counterplay against Spectrier with Blissey is using Shadow Ball (which means you need something else to handle dual dance Magearna and garbage against other mons), or if Seismic Toss....pp stall it. All of Spectriers good counterplays are passive as hell and need to focus on being defensive utility and required to win in the late game to do anything seeing as it runs away with little opportunity cost cause again the good checks are passive and dont apply real offensive pressure. No offensive answer can ever reliably switch in, Obstagoon is a meme that blocks only one set reliably in the CM set, it can't just stomach the loose coverage from Spectrier on spec sets for example over and over and being spikes prone. It's also a block for the one set that is used in the late game, which Obstagoon wouldn't be around CM Spec teams are built to wear stuff down for CM to succeed.

Heavy Duty Boots will never have a serious discussion of removal because there is too much collateral damage for lower tiers and policy but it's the one thing that makes Cinderace ridiculous, so the next best choice is just to look at Cinderace. HDB makes Cinderace hard to check offensively, via the use of hazards, which would make Cinderace manageable. Cinderace reliable checks fall into two mons in Toxapex and Slowbro. I'm not going to go into the whole electro ball argument, I think the move is a bit memey kind of niche you sacrifice a lot by using it for surprise factor but Ace can just U-Turn out these mons into whatever and they're generally passive outside of fishing for a Scald burn on switch in (or hard switch once Helmet is revealed). The 4MSS I think is never a good argument for anything, you're basically admitting that it has all these options to do whatever it wants. I swear the mon changes it's set like every 2-3 weeks to acclimate the current environment. Using Bro and Pex on your teams is whatever, they're good mons they're not memes like Obstagoon the issue is punishing Cinderace which is easier said than done because of HDB, access to Sucker Punch, and speed tier.

I've stated my piece before that Magearna is broken, games shouldn't feel over within 10 or so turns because Magearna set up on you behind screens or you lose a mon trying to switch into the stupidly strong Specs set, this is with consideration that you do have checks because I've played and watched games happen where these checks lost to the dice roll of whatever it was running Dual Dance with Aura Sphere for example. That's not a healthy trait of a metagame imo but it's beating a dead horse with this argument.

Re: what to look at next. Contrary to my own opinion the belief that Magearna is the worst offender of matchup problems Spectrier should be looked at cause its checks are all fat stuff or variations of good mons like Hydreigon that are forced to use garbage variations of themselves so Spectrier will not get out control. Spectriers counterplays also create the problem that they are again fodder or set up bait for Cinderace and Mag, it's a revolving cycle in how they handle each others counterplays.
 
I don't really think aegislash shares all niches with spectrier, since it can still use a physical set with priority, and king's shield is nice now that urshifu is out.
In my opinion gengar could actually stand to be used less as an all out attacker, as spectrier outclasses it there, but to look more into its' moves that enable it to pressure certain defensive teams more efficiently than spectrier, like tricking black sludges or scarfs,taunt, encore,corrosive gas, pain splitting a blissey which can even put in work if blissey has shadow ball, destiny bond when it's chipped to lure a slow check to the rest of your team. The real problem with gengar IMO is that it's potential as a stallbreaker is much better than spectrier if you use the right set, but stall isn't that popular in the meta, and it's attacking set is outclassed by it.
Blacephalon is pretty out of luck, it's fire typing doesn't really bring much, and it's only other nice side is tricking
That may be true, but the fact of the matter is that they haven't seen much usage at all since Spectrier dropped. Even Dragapult, a mon which many declared could never be bad, has seen a drop in usage, in part due to its competition with Spectrier. I don't think physical aegislash are too good anyways, as they are easily walled by Toxapex, Corviknight, Hippowdon, and a many other OU physical walls such as the birds and Tapu Fini. Shadow Claw just isn't that powerful.
 

Goodbye & Thanks

Thrown in a fire?
Blissey has to sacrifice Seismic Toss to hit Spectrier, which in practice, doesn't strike me as a huge loss. The average damage output with Toss might be a bit higher against low-HP defensive, but the idea has always just been to chip things down rather than do major amounts of damage, and in exchange for checking Spectrier, you're only really losing out on your chip on Heatran, Pex and Obstagoon on the switchin, and as a bonus, you avoid helmet/barbs chip.
I understand and respect what you’re saying, but I do think that Shadow Ball over Seismic Toss on Blissey is pretty bad and does make Blissey substantially worse overall. Without the consistency of Seismic Toss, Blissey can be set up on by Calm Minders much more easily, Volcarona becomes a much bigger threat, and even things like Substitute Nidoking become more annoying, especially with Shadow Ball having less PP. Magma Storm + Taunt Heatran also becomes more likely to trap and pick Blissey off if it doesn’t have Seismic Toss. Beyond making Blissey struggle in many more 1v1s, I think that the bigger issue with not having Seismic Toss is that it makes it easier for the majority of Pokémon to switch into Blissey. The chip difference against common Blissey switch-ins like Excadrill can make a huge difference, especially over longer games. Essentially any Pokémon with Roost/Recover is able to more easily switch into Blissey at low health and heal up if Blissey has Shadow Ball, where as Seismic Toss could have finished them off on the switch.

I personally don’t think that Blissey should really ever carry Shadow Ball, unless it’s also running Calm Mind, but that’s very hard to fit if you aren’t building a specific type of stall. I get that it’s scary not being able to touch Spectrier back, but in my experience, Blissey still manages most Spectrier fine. Specs/Scarf Spectrier gets walled by Blissey, and even if it’s Substitute with Shadow Ball or Hex as its only attacking move (which I believe is the most common set), it shouldn’t get past Blissey. I thankfully never had to fully play this out, but I think that Blissey should be able to PP stall most Spectrier that can’t hit it back. If you have Teleport on Blissey (and I feel like the majority of Blissey should run it) and Spectrier doesn’t have Taunt (which isn’t currently one of the nine most commonly used moves on it), you can often Teleport out into something that threatens Spectrier or is faster with U-turn/Volt Switch if Spectrier is behind a Sub. Last thing I’ll say is that even if you run Shadow Ball on Blissey, you can still lose to CM Spectrier, which was the main thing you’re trying to check by using an inferior set with Shadow Ball in the first place.
 
I feel like there will always be a big offensive threat in OU. Looking back at older gens, you had keldeo in gen 5 that was an absolute beast with its specs set. And in gen 6 with mega metagross. Now in gen 8, we have Spectier and Magearna. I have come to the conclusion that once a big offensive threat is removed, another one will rise to its place to take its place. it is a never-ending cycle.
 

Jordy

is an official Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
I feel like there will always be a big offensive threat in OU. Looking back at older gens, you had keldeo in gen 5 that was an absolute beast with its specs set. And in gen 6 with mega metagross. Now in gen 8, we have Spectier and Magearna. I have come to the conclusion that once a big offensive threat is removed, another one will rise to its place to take its place. it is a never-ending cycle.
You're right. There will always be a best Pokemon in the tier. However, that does not mean that we should give up tiering to strive for a healthier tier just because "something else will be the best Pokemon instead". The issue is never solely that a Pokemon is the best; that is a secondary thing. The main issue is more often than not (insane versatility leading to) a lack of counterplay, teambuilding constriction, etc.
 
That may be true, but the fact of the matter is that they haven't seen much usage at all since Spectrier dropped. Even Dragapult, a mon which many declared could never be bad, has seen a drop in usage, in part due to its competition with Spectrier. I don't think physical aegislash are too good anyways, as they are easily walled by Toxapex, Corviknight, Hippowdon, and a many other OU physical walls such as the birds and Tapu Fini. Shadow Claw just isn't that powerful.
that also may be true, but we must take other meta developments into account. in aegislash's case, alongside spectrier dropping, zygarde, both forms of lando, garchomp, and nidoking dropped alongside it. thats a lot of extremely strong ground type attackers, not to mention after only half of them left urshifu became the best mon in the tier, and thats not good for aegislash.
gengar dropped off too, but i think that actually is in line with what i said: isle of armor meta was insanely stally and tundra metas very much were not, which goes in favor of me saying gengar has better tools against stall.
i agree with blacephalon.
just to summarise, i wanted to say there is more to those mons not getting usage than "spectrier terk er jerbs", even if it did certainly take some of their niches, and i think they wouldnt be that used even without it existing. it's more that it drove the final nail in their coffin instead of single handedly pushing them out
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 15, Guests: 14)

Top