Not to disagree with your point but I just wanna point out that this Calc is wrong because it doesn't take into account Unseen Fist's automatic Crit which ignores its defensive boost/does more damage.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
P sure only surging strike crits
You are correct my bad, still Surging strikes is still a 2hko as well.
If this thing tanks moves as well as the calcs say it does, I could see the metal burst variant being a problem. It has the stats to run pretty much any type of set it wants
Yeah uh unseen fist just bypasses protect. Surging Strikes is a move that autocrits. Strikes also doesn't 2hko:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zamazenta-Crowned on a critical hit: 156-189 (40.2 - 48.7%) -- approx. 3HKO
While true especially for offense, I don't think that's too bad overall given how "slow" it can't be. Metal Burst doesn't have any negative priority, and the slowest Zama could be is a Speed of 252, which overall is still freaking fast. The opportunity cost is too great for Metal Burst IMO, since being that fast lets you batter things like Torn-T before they hit you. Metal Burst might be a good revenge move though as the last resort for bulky fast sets to bop scarfers and things that have DDanced/Scale Shot/Quivered/etc.
Lagging Tail can be a nice lure. I can also see it being a nightmare on duel screens( not metal burst but the boosting variants)
It can't run lagging tail - it has to run Rusty Shield.
Also, I'm genuinely excited for this (hopeful) suspect test. Zama seems like one of the most exciting things to try out in this meta, especially now that we've finally achieved balance.
Oh dang
If that's the case then its basically just a Mega. I don't see why it shouldn't be at least tested. What you see, is what you're gonna get with this guy as far as preboosted stats go
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I'm down for a Zama-C suspect, but I do have my theorymon-ish concerns.
It was already stated here how it has a good chance of bolstering defensive cores with its tremendous bulk + typing, while on the flip side, it was also said how it doesn't necessarily have the best damage output due to the lack of interchangeable items outside of its signature Rusted Shield, meaning it won't do very well against opposing balance cores. However, I see Zama-C being an amazing anti-offense mon, and here's why.
Sure, its Attack stat isn't the highest around, but it's good enough, especially when factoring in the rest of its high stats. It sits at a very good Speed tier, outpacing Torn-T, the rare-ish Weavile, and everything slower if Zama opts for a lot of Speed investment. If running Jolly, unless you want to tie opposing Zama, I don't really see the need to run anymore Speed than enough to outpace Torn-T, leaving you room to invest elsewhere. Weavile needs Banded Low Kick to threaten Zama on the switch anyway, and if that happens, Weavile becomes fairly exploitable the next turn as Zama can swap into Clef or something and get Wish recovery. More importantly, however, is the natural bulk allowing Zama to survive almost any one hit from full and retaliate pretty hard against most offensive threats. For example, not a single STAB EQ is OHKOing Zama from full unless an SD boost is involved, whether it's from Landorus-T, Garchomp, or Excadrill (Arceus help you if Zama has Grassy Terrain support regardless). Meanwhile, Zama hits the former two with Ice Fang, and Close Combats the latter for serious damage. On paper, Defensive Lando isn't even that great of a check to this mon as with enough (minimal) investment, Zama can prevent defensive Lando's EQ from 2HKOing while Ice Fang has a really good chance to 2HKO back after rocks and Leftovers depending on how much Attack you invest, with the matchup being even worse if Zama has Grassy Terrain support.
Being immune to Toxic, quad-resisting Stealth Rock, and taking practically 0 from Knock Off are huge boons, as well, making it sound like this mon will be very hard to wear down. Sure there's no recovery option, but again, look at the OU environment. Wish support is common, and Grassy terrain provides passive healing and an EQ resistance. It won't be hard at all to sustain Zama.
Like I said, I'm cool for a suspect just to see how Zama is in practice. I can post as many calcs as I want, but we'll never know for sure how Zama will affect the tier without seeing actual results. I just don't have high hopes for it being a balanced addition to the tier.
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 205-244 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
It was already stated here how it has a good chance of bolstering defensive cores with its tremendous bulk + typing, while on the flip side, it was also said how it doesn't necessarily have the best damage output due to the lack of interchangeable items outside of its signature Rusted Shield, meaning it won't do very well against opposing balance cores. However, I see Zama-C being an amazing anti-offense mon, and here's why.
Sure, its Attack stat isn't the highest around, but it's good enough, especially when factoring in the rest of its high stats. It sits at a very good Speed tier, outpacing Torn-T, the rare-ish Weavile, and everything slower if Zama opts for a lot of Speed investment. If running Jolly, unless you want to tie opposing Zama, I don't really see the need to run anymore Speed than enough to outpace Torn-T, leaving you room to invest elsewhere. Weavile needs Banded Low Kick to threaten Zama on the switch anyway, and if that happens, Weavile becomes fairly exploitable the next turn as Zama can swap into Clef or something and get Wish recovery. More importantly, however, is the natural bulk allowing Zama to survive almost any one hit from full and retaliate pretty hard against most offensive threats. For example, not a single STAB EQ is OHKOing Zama from full unless an SD boost is involved, whether it's from Landorus-T, Garchomp, or Excadrill (Arceus help you if Zama has Grassy Terrain support regardless). Meanwhile, Zama hits the former two with Ice Fang, and Close Combats the latter for serious damage. On paper, Defensive Lando isn't even that great of a check to this mon as with enough (minimal) investment, Zama can prevent defensive Lando's EQ from 2HKOing while Ice Fang has a really good chance to 2HKO back after rocks and Leftovers depending on how much Attack you invest, with the matchup being even worse if Zama has Grassy Terrain support.
Being immune to Toxic, quad-resisting Stealth Rock, and taking practically 0 from Knock Off are huge boons, as well, making it sound like this mon will be very hard to wear down. Sure there's no recovery option, but again, look at the OU environment. Wish support is common, and Grassy terrain provides passive healing and an EQ resistance. It won't be hard at all to sustain Zama.
Like I said, I'm cool for a suspect just to see how Zama is in practice. I can post as many calcs as I want, but we'll never know for sure how Zama will affect the tier without seeing actual results. I just don't have high hopes for it being a balanced addition to the tier.
I agree with your entire post, except I have to bear some bad news. The calc is bugged when it comes to factoring in Zama's ability, so even though it says +1 Defense, it's not actually being applied. Here's the real worrying af calc:
252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 64 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 205-244 (60.1 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
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The Zama-C discussion is getting hot!
While I think the current metagame is in a very good spot right now, I have two concerns. Knock Off-centric meta and long-term stale state of the meta, the later I feel it wont change unless a suspect test to ban or introduce a new mon to the meta.
Testing Zama-C would help with both issues. It would give the tier a Knock Off absorber and a suspect test to shake the things up a bit. If the mon ends up being too much for the meta, then we have to "do not unban" the mon, or if somehow it doesnt overwhelm the tier, then, allow it.
Just theorymoning, I feel this mon would be a over centralizing force in this tier, while not being particularly overwhelming against balance cores, it would give offense a massive headache because of its insane bulk, speed and decent power. Many balance teams would love to have it as an anti-offense measure while providing it the support it needs in the form of Wish, Heal Bell and even Healing Wish to prevent it being worn down too quickly.
Offense also would profit of it, as it can work as a cleaner alongside partners that can pressure things like metal birds, pex and zapdos like Garchomp and Rillaboom, the later which gives it grassy terrain support, making up a bit for its lack of sustain. Also, given it screens support, this mon can setup to +2 easily because of the insane bulk it has amplified by screens. Its offense prowress goes further by having one of the best speed tiers of the meta and doesnt giving a crap about every priority move in OU metagame.
The good thing about all of this is the fact that actually we can test it for 2 weeks and see how things are going. If it result being unhealthy, we dont unban it. On the other hand, if the supermajority of players think it is a good addition to the tier, then welcome the dog. I think now or in a few weeks, is a good moment to test it.
Thanks for reading!
While I think the current metagame is in a very good spot right now, I have two concerns. Knock Off-centric meta and long-term stale state of the meta, the later I feel it wont change unless a suspect test to ban or introduce a new mon to the meta.
Testing Zama-C would help with both issues. It would give the tier a Knock Off absorber and a suspect test to shake the things up a bit. If the mon ends up being too much for the meta, then we have to "do not unban" the mon, or if somehow it doesnt overwhelm the tier, then, allow it.
Just theorymoning, I feel this mon would be a over centralizing force in this tier, while not being particularly overwhelming against balance cores, it would give offense a massive headache because of its insane bulk, speed and decent power. Many balance teams would love to have it as an anti-offense measure while providing it the support it needs in the form of Wish, Heal Bell and even Healing Wish to prevent it being worn down too quickly.
Offense also would profit of it, as it can work as a cleaner alongside partners that can pressure things like metal birds, pex and zapdos like Garchomp and Rillaboom, the later which gives it grassy terrain support, making up a bit for its lack of sustain. Also, given it screens support, this mon can setup to +2 easily because of the insane bulk it has amplified by screens. Its offense prowress goes further by having one of the best speed tiers of the meta and doesnt giving a crap about every priority move in OU metagame.
The good thing about all of this is the fact that actually we can test it for 2 weeks and see how things are going. If it result being unhealthy, we dont unban it. On the other hand, if the supermajority of players think it is a good addition to the tier, then welcome the dog. I think now or in a few weeks, is a good moment to test it.
Thanks for reading!
I think we’re all getting too caught up in theorymonning and worrying about what-if’s here. The discussion is certainly good and brings a bunch of different perspectives to the table, but I think that until we actually see what the Shield Dog is like in the tier in practice, we’re only operating on hypotheticals. There’s no harm in Suspect Testing it at the very least to see if it’s broken or not. If it’s broken then cool, back up to Ubers it goes! No harm no foul. If it’s not broken, then we have a new addition to the tier that brings entirely new things to the table (see the Knock Off absorption part of the discussion, unmatched physical bulk, etc.) that we’ve been lacking to an extent.
I think the primary point I’m making here is that it seems that some folks are arguing against a Suspect Test at all, when an Unban outcome isn’t even guaranteed. I mean, that’s kinda the whole point of the test, no? There’s no harm in trying.
I think the primary point I’m making here is that it seems that some folks are arguing against a Suspect Test at all, when an Unban outcome isn’t even guaranteed. I mean, that’s kinda the whole point of the test, no? There’s no harm in trying.
This is all exactly why I believe we should let it loose, we are just saying things and not putting them into practice. On paper it might look really broken, or not really broken, but the thing is we need to test it ourselves in the tier and then vote weather it is or isn't. Like the post above me there is no harm in trying a retest because if it stays it'll stay, meaning it's manageable, if it doesn't that means it was to strong and won't be seeing OU play.
I'm not a SS OU player but i have a hard time to understand why some of you want to unban Zamazenta. A lot of people here seems happy with the meta they have and it's too early to say if the meta will stay the same or not (probably not tho, old metagame aren't solved, it will be surprising if SS OU is, especially one month after two major ban)
I mean the only argument i see is that if a mon have the potential to not be broken, it need to be suspected, which is something i, personnally, don't agree. IMO, the goal of suspect testing is to make the meta better, other goals aren't beneficial. If you are happy with the current stat of a meta, don't take the risk to make it worse just because you want to test some novelty. What if Zamazenta happen to be a balanced pokemon but the meta feels worse ?
I mean the only argument i see is that if a mon have the potential to not be broken, it need to be suspected, which is something i, personnally, don't agree. IMO, the goal of suspect testing is to make the meta better, other goals aren't beneficial. If you are happy with the current stat of a meta, don't take the risk to make it worse just because you want to test some novelty. What if Zamazenta happen to be a balanced pokemon but the meta feels worse ?
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Red Raven
I COULD BE BANNED!
Because that's the thing, we don't exactly want Zamazenta unbanned. We want to see how it fits. I'm not saying this for everyone but I'm sure that many can agree that there is no way to know for sure until it is tried. That's why it's called 'test' because we want to see if it is okay or is broken. Risks like this is always something worth considering. Yes, the meta might become hell if it becomes unbanned but it won't stay hell forever. Who knows. Maybe Zamazenta would be a good fit just like when Black Kyurem was tested in ou a few generations ago
I will say why you have a hard time understanding why people want to unban Zamazenta? It's simple. Like you say you don't play the tier
To understand why and how the meta works. How you understand this? Playing.
There's no harm in testing it on my opinion. And all the ''ifs'' will not been certain until we test it
I agree that we have a beatiful meta at the moment, and I think that we should test it in the tier shifts and not now. I still see why people would like Zama in OU. The advantages of Zama is that it's a bulky monster that offers speed control to your team also offering offensive presence, it also punish Knock Off (which if you play SS OU you know that's everywhere and it's centric on the current meta) but it also has the flaw of not having reliable recovery and being worn down really quick by Spikes and other sources of chip damage (however immune to sand and 4x resist to stealth rock) yes there's wishport and similiar things, but
a) not something to rely on
b) Zama would still be chipped down. There's also potent things on the tier that can 2 or 3HKO Zama. And you could be passive and potential setup fodder when you're making
As ForstamemasNeetaroOoniqua said : ''we don't exactly want Zamazenta unbanned. We want to see how it fits" (and also gave a good response to why we're testing it)
We want to test Zama to see how it will be on the meta, maybe it's a good fit, there's also a lot of theorycrafting about Kyurem-Black in gen 5 OU, and surprise they test it and it was a good fit. Just it
I wanted to talk about a move never seen on clef, healing wish, it is true tat clef sometimes cant fit that move, or that it doest provide enough utility for some teams, but if used in the correct team it can become really useful, especially when paired with sweepe, I'll show a replay about this. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1302588902
The metagame being in a balanced state is more of a reason to retest something, not less. A lot of posters seem to be spinning this in the wrong direction.
Poor metagame states mean that work is needed within the tier — potential suspects or bans are needed. A balanced metagame gives us an opportunity to temporarily avoid a suspect or ban from within and look towards potential additions. Keep in mind that a retest doesn’t officially add something to the metagame, but rather puts it up to vote. It is a no risk, high reward proposition unless you are here to cry about 2 weeks of one Pokemon being usable on the ladder (in which case, that’s a you problem).
Poor metagame states mean that work is needed within the tier — potential suspects or bans are needed. A balanced metagame gives us an opportunity to temporarily avoid a suspect or ban from within and look towards potential additions. Keep in mind that a retest doesn’t officially add something to the metagame, but rather puts it up to vote. It is a no risk, high reward proposition unless you are here to cry about 2 weeks of one Pokemon being usable on the ladder (in which case, that’s a you problem).
Can we retest shadow tag
i am Strongly against this, as shadow tag (in.. literally every meta it's been in? maybe it's ok in ubers but even there was suspected every gen iirc) has proven to be pretty bloody broken lol
I was being sarcastic, but let me play devil's advocate. I mean, if the metagame is stable and we are testing random stuff like Zamazenta, might as well retest stag for 2 weeks - for the same logic everyone has been using w/ Zamazenta, could be applied to Stag (only difference is stag is more hated)
Unlike many other things, we banned Shadow Tag (and trapping in general) way back in gen 6 and never looked at it again. Ever. We might've retested Arena Trap in gen 7 but I'm not 100% sure, but def not stag.
Today's metagame has evolved greatly, potentially making stag not as broken.
Cons for Gothitelle/Stag:
- Power Creep: It's way harder for Gothitelle to trap offensive pokemon like it was in gen 6; it can't pretty much switch in on anything in the game with a scarf and trick it. For example, can't really trap offensive pokemon like Kartana, Rillaboom, Melmetal, or Koko.
- More momentum moves, ex: Flip Turn & Teleport. Specifically on defensive pokemon, which is what Gothitelle excelled at trapping. Gothitelle has a much harder time trapping defensive pokemon and risking momentum loss, but even if it gets the double onto them the best it can do is cripple them with a Scarf (assuming they have switching out move). It can't really do the broken get 6 calms minds, pp stall, then get back your trick and try to sweep kinda thing it did way back then.
- Dragapult. Dragapult is the #2 pokemon in usage that provides a ghost type that cannot be trapped AND outspeeds scarf Gothitelle. There's also other viable ghost types right now such as Aegislash, Gengar, and Blacephelon.
- No HP. You might think this is dumb but HP def made Gothitelle more flexible, for example you can Scarf + HP fire to take care of Kartana as even if it was scarfed you can take one hit. Some people ran HP ground to weaken Heatran after tricking it Scarf, and some people ran other HP for certain threats.
- It's deadweight for a good amount of matchups. Generally, no matter how hard you are trying to matchup fish, it's never great to have pokemon that's deadweight against some matchups. This might be true for a lot of pokemon, but it certainly wasn't true for Gen 6 Gothitelle, which was useful in every single matchup.
Pros:
- No pursuit, this is pretty neat for Gothitelle.
- More momentum moves like Flip Turn & Teleport. Although this acts against Gothitelle more than it helps it, it certainly does help it because it does mean you can easily pair it with a Slowbro or something and get guaranteed free switch-in. Although let's say a Blissey comes in, you do get the guaranteed Tricking it Scarf while Blissey teleport outs (which gives up momentum), but like previously mentioned you don't get the PP Stalling + getting 6 Calms Minds + Getting scarf back kinda level of broken.
I know Trapping was banned more-so because it had an uncompetitive game-breaking mechanic which was eliminating switching, but with so many new factors it might be less broken, just as broken, or potentially even more broken (probably not, gen 6 gothitelle was peak cancer) - but we will never know that, unless we test it. Which was what everyone was advocating for Zam-C. Gothitelle isn't something we tested many times like Zygarde, neither it was something we tested pretty recently like Darm-G. Hell, even if it was something we tested often, which we didn't, it might still be worth restesting - case in point Blaziken and Aegislash. There ARE other factors to trapping like Wobuffet and potentially Arena Trap, but Gothitelle was by far the biggest offender.
I'm just playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't really want Stag back either - but I'm curious to see what happens, as it genuinely might not be as broken. If the metagame is so stable that we get to test whatever we think might be not completely broken in OU for 2 weeks because we have the control factor, might as well test Shadow Tag for the hell of it. Biases aside. Don't hate on this post, I'm just tryna make important discussion and address the elephant in the room. Ok I'm ready now for the dislikes.
Unlike many other things, we banned Shadow Tag (and trapping in general) way back in gen 6 and never looked at it again. Ever. We might've retested Arena Trap in gen 7 but I'm not 100% sure, but def not stag.
Today's metagame has evolved greatly, potentially making stag not as broken.
Cons for Gothitelle/Stag:
- Power Creep: It's way harder for Gothitelle to trap offensive pokemon like it was in gen 6; it can't pretty much switch in on anything in the game with a scarf and trick it. For example, can't really trap offensive pokemon like Kartana, Rillaboom, Melmetal, or Koko.
- More momentum moves, ex: Flip Turn & Teleport. Specifically on defensive pokemon, which is what Gothitelle excelled at trapping. Gothitelle has a much harder time trapping defensive pokemon and risking momentum loss, but even if it gets the double onto them the best it can do is cripple them with a Scarf (assuming they have switching out move). It can't really do the broken get 6 calms minds, pp stall, then get back your trick and try to sweep kinda thing it did way back then.
- Dragapult. Dragapult is the #2 pokemon in usage that provides a ghost type that cannot be trapped AND outspeeds scarf Gothitelle. There's also other viable ghost types right now such as Aegislash, Gengar, and Blacephelon.
- No HP. You might think this is dumb but HP def made Gothitelle more flexible, for example you can Scarf + HP fire to take care of Kartana as even if it was scarfed you can take one hit. Some people ran HP ground to weaken Heatran after tricking it Scarf, and some people ran other HP for certain threats.
- It's deadweight for a good amount of matchups. Generally, no matter how hard you are trying to matchup fish, it's never great to have pokemon that's deadweight against some matchups. This might be true for a lot of pokemon, but it certainly wasn't true for Gen 6 Gothitelle, which was useful in every single matchup.
Pros:
- No pursuit, this is pretty neat for Gothitelle.
- More momentum moves like Flip Turn & Teleport. Although this acts against Gothitelle more than it helps it, it certainly does help it because it does mean you can easily pair it with a Slowbro or something and get guaranteed free switch-in. Although let's say a Blissey comes in, you do get the guaranteed Tricking it Scarf while Blissey teleport outs (which gives up momentum), but like previously mentioned you don't get the PP Stalling + getting 6 Calms Minds + Getting scarf back kinda level of broken.
I know Trapping was banned more-so because it had an uncompetitive game-breaking mechanic which was eliminating switching, but with so many new factors it might be less broken, just as broken, or potentially even more broken (probably not, gen 6 gothitelle was peak cancer) - but we will never know that, unless we test it. Which was what everyone was advocating for Zam-C. Gothitelle isn't something we tested many times like Zygarde, neither it was something we tested pretty recently like Darm-G. Hell, even if it was something we tested often, which we didn't, it might still be worth restesting - case in point Blaziken and Aegislash. There ARE other factors to trapping like Wobuffet and potentially Arena Trap, but Gothitelle was by far the biggest offender.
I'm just playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't really want Stag back either - but I'm curious to see what happens, as it genuinely might not be as broken. If the metagame is so stable that we get to test whatever we think might be not completely broken in OU for 2 weeks because we have the control factor, might as well test Shadow Tag for the hell of it. Biases aside. Don't hate on this post, I'm just tryna make important discussion and address the elephant in the room. Ok I'm ready now for the dislikes.
the fact that shadow tag is being suspected in ubers because of goth should be enough to tell you why that is definetly not happening lol. Why would an ability that is strictly better than an ability we have already deemed to be too much be sent back into the tier?
Anyway, abt Zama-Crowned itself, as much as I do think it will be broken I still think it should be retested. The worst case scenario is that the meta becomes unplayable for a small time of 2 weeks, while the best case scenario is that we gain a healthy pokémon to the meta that provides us with something we've been missing a lot in gen 8; a viable Knock Off absorber. Yeah, it's probably going to be unhealthy, but it's not like the meta needs action to desperately be taken on any mon, so why not try it?
Anyway, abt Zama-Crowned itself, as much as I do think it will be broken I still think it should be retested. The worst case scenario is that the meta becomes unplayable for a small time of 2 weeks, while the best case scenario is that we gain a healthy pokémon to the meta that provides us with something we've been missing a lot in gen 8; a viable Knock Off absorber. Yeah, it's probably going to be unhealthy, but it's not like the meta needs action to desperately be taken on any mon, so why not try it?
No. I'm shutting this down before it even starts.
Suggesting to unban something that has already been proven to be a broken element for the sake of playing the "devil's advocate" and because "why not" is, bluntly, a very poor and very dangerous idea. Additionally, the unbanning of Zamazenta which actually has arguments and a motive to be suspected against something like Shadow Tag is not even remotely comparable, and will lead to no productive discussion whatsoever.
As for discussion regarding Shadow Tag or one-liners about Zamazenta; please avoid them both going forward and let's get back on track. Thanks!
also happy 100th page everyone