Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion Thread v7 (Usage Stats in post #3539)

KaenSoul

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I dont see a reason to stop talking about the topic when the questions are still in the air.
And dont get me wrong, i dont think this tier has to ban sleep moves either, there are many options, like keeping sleep clause but not as a mod, like you can put one mon to sleep but then you arent allowed to click into a sleep inducing move until there is no sleeping mon in the opposite team, is the same rule but as something you can actually agree in cartridge, then also add exceptions like 'you can still use the move if you are forced to by encore, lack of pp or other reasons and the move will not be forced to miss'.
It just doesnt make sence to me that there is a mod in a standard tier that isnt there to fix a gamebreaking bug or something, as it goes against the tier policy used for everything else, you know banning pokemon, items, abilities, etc, is like allowing kings rock but with the effects of Bluck Berry, or Shadow Tag but with the effect of Illuminate after the first trapping.
 

Ehmcee

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Context reference: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/evasion-abilities-in-ss-ou-done.3694852/#post-9060064
Now that Evasion Abilities and Items are banned... When are the sleep-inducing moves going to be banned?
Sleep moves had been of the exact same nature, the amount of turns to wake up is entirely luck based and can drastically turn the game around. There are little counterplays to such as people can always fish for 3 turn sleeps instead of playing competitively in order to get a win. Sleep clause had always been a terrible complex clause that cannot even exist on the actual game, and it should really be replaced by a simple ban on all sleep-inducing moves.
I think that it's important to mention that the uncompetitiveness of evasion and sleep are completely unrelated, and that it's pretty disingenuous to imply that they are comparable.

The fact that there is a random number generator behind the amount of turns asleep technically does make it uncompetitive, however sleep is widely considered to be a valuable strategy with some amount of effectiveness behind it, evasiveness on the other hand was widely regarded as purely uncompetitive, as well as the fact that it added absolutely nothing of value to the metagame.

Few reasons why sleep isn't a problem in this metagame.

First of all, as stated by multiple users above, a great amount of viable counterplay exists to sleep, making it vastly different than evasion, due to it's unpredictability (brightpowder), or lack of viable counterplay (sand veil).

Due to the two main sleep powder abusers being extremely slow, counterplay is even easier against them. Venusaur is absolutely never running sleep powder, the mon already neccessitates growth to be viable and running sleep powder over any other coverage move makes it walled by a type.

Lastly, if your mon is asleep, it's not like the game is over, you can still switch into another pokemon and use it due to sleep clause. This is exactly why sleep clause is a thing, to allow counterplay to this strategy. If you see a pokemon that is likely to run a sleep move, it is in your best interest to determine the best switchin that could be put to sleep.


Lastly, these conversations have already happened, 2 years ago in fact, I would recommend anyone read this policy review post before posting further:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sleep-clause-in-generation-8.3656311/
 

AM

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And as a continuation to IPFs post there is way more interesting stuff to talk about like SPL starting up after the ban of Kyurem and not the dreadful to watch SPL of last year with Cinderace and Magearna. So fingers crossed it wont be a total bore to watch. Should be a thread for it now too so check it out.
 
And as a continuation to IPFs post there is way more interesting stuff to talk about like SPL starting up after the ban of Kyurem and not the dreadful to watch SPL of last year with Cinderace and Magearna. So fingers crossed it wont be a total bore to watch. Should be a thread for it now too so check it out.
Absolutely. I've never personally paid attention to the tournaments but with how good the meta looks, and the fact that a suspect test just ended watching SPL is going to give all of us some vital information on the state of the meta because the tourny regulars always find the best strats right as a ban happens. Very excited for SPL and let's just hope we get some beautiful Torn-T to S rank action
 

Gomi

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lol i hate this forum why was someone trying to fish for replies with a sleep ban

Kyurem ban killed like 1/3 my builder and made the other 2/3rd probably want updates so im hoping to see some inventive shit in spl to steal. shud be interesting
 

BT89

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lol i hate this forum why was someone trying to fish for replies with a sleep ban
because it's an ou forum
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anyways, kyurem ban is surely going to shake things up and open a lot of doors in terms of teambuilding. like gomi said, hoping that some new stuff is crafted in spl, as there is no cinderace and magearna to fuck things up. definitely expecting a shit ton of usage for shit like torn rilla and zap.
 
You can't do anything but Haze away Evasion boosts, and aside from item removal (that might miss) or Ability removal (lol) you literally can't fight Evasion, just hope it doesn't screw you, while you can fight Sleep with numerous tools:
My claim is that the ease of dealing with a uncompetitive mechanic does not make it competitive at all, and as you say that, I'm going to quick list the ways to counter evasion:
  • You can equip Wide Lens
  • You can use No Guard Pokemon
  • You can use Coil or Hone Claws
  • You can swap in hard counter to evasion boosting pokemons
  • You can use moves with no accuracy check (Aura Sphere, Clear Smog, Smart Strike, etc.)
Does that make evasion competitive at all? No. Nor does your checks to sleep make sleep competitive for the same reason.

and... the cost of having one Pokèmon to sleep isn't that great either (well, depends on the battle), there's Rest too if you consider it and the sleep users themselves are just either weak or niche, other than every sleep moves having somewhat of a cost to run instead of just nothing but benefits regarding Evasion
Having a moveslot to run Sleep move is definitely less of an opportunity cost than evasion boosting mons that often has to abandon its otherwise useful ability (Rough Skin for example) and/or its very important item slot. They are also considerably weaker than normal builds, and are by no means "nothing but benefits".

also quick reply to M24 : Sure sleep is a valuable strategy, so is King's Rock and evasion to some extent. Uncompetitiveness and viability cannot be equated in any means, and trying to argue that sleep has counterplay is just... w/e, read the above part.
 

ViZar

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My claim is that the ease of dealing with a uncompetitive mechanic does not make it competitive at all, and as you say that, I'm going to quick list the ways to counter evasion:
  • You can equip Wide Lens
  • You can use No Guard Pokemon
  • You can use Coil or Hone Claws
  • You can swap in hard counter to evasion boosting pokemons
  • You can use moves with no accuracy check (Aura Sphere, Clear Smog, Smart Strike, etc.)
Wide Lens is a bad item with little to no upside. No Guard Pokemon are rare and this abilityis restricted to Machamp and Golurk, who have no impact (or very little) impact on OU. Coil and Hone Claws are also rare and most Pokemon that have those either are less viable or have something like SD. Aura Sphere, Clear Smog and Smart Strike fail into comparison to other moves.

Also doesn't this make something broken or restrictive, when it forces you to run usually less viable options in order to check it?
Evasion adds nothing positive to the game and going out of your way to check doesn't make it less uncompetitive
 
Ok no one seems to have brought this up but lets talk about something the kyurem ban is good for. Swampert!
After a (well deserved) drop to UU seems like the mudskipper hasn't been spared a thought in OU. Freeze dry's omnipotence made near unviable as a special wall. Add hail's rise on top of that and well... It wasn't having a good time in OU.
But some of the predicted meta trends might just favour it once more. First, the rise of other bulky waters. It's not unreasonable to assume we'll see offenIve electrics shoot up further in usage. Swampert might be tipped to deal with threats like koko, zeraora and zapdos.
Ill also be willing to guess that Rillaboom might crop up to help with Fini and other bulky waters. This sounds like bad news at first for swampert but it also helps with its biggest issue. Recovery. In the early crown tundra grassy terrain+swampert was a favoured set of mine.
Now Im not saying swampert will jump to A tier. But with its role compression as a stealth rock setter + pivot it might be a fun alternative to lando and co.
Oh and it loved running yawn. The only actually viable sleep move (as per the stupid discourse on here recently).
 
Ok no one seems to have brought this up but lets talk about something the kyurem ban is good for. Swampert!
After a (well deserved) drop to UU seems like the mudskipper hasn't been spared a thought in OU. Freeze dry's omnipotence made near unviable as a special wall. Add hail's rise on top of that and well... It wasn't having a good time in OU.
But some of the predicted meta trends might just favour it once more. First, the rise of other bulky waters. It's not unreasonable to assume we'll see offenIve electrics shoot up further in usage. Swampert might be tipped to deal with threats like koko, zeraora and zapdos.
Ill also be willing to guess that Rillaboom might crop up to help with Fini and other bulky waters. This sounds like bad news at first for swampert but it also helps with its biggest issue. Recovery. In the early crown tundra grassy terrain+swampert was a favoured set of mine.
Now Im not saying swampert will jump to A tier. But with its role compression as a stealth rock setter + pivot it might be a fun alternative to lando and co.
Oh and it loved running yawn. The only actually viable sleep move (as per the stupid discourse on here recently).
Yup, I can definitely agree. I remember making a troll deck with Swampert and Ferrothorn to spam spikes and rocks, and then 5 seconds later, the opponent's Kyurem would launch my entire team to hell. Now that Kyurem is gone, I can finally have a good pivot option without having to worry about getting yoinked so easily.
 

Mimikyu Stardust

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Yup, I can definitely agree. I remember making a troll deck with Swampert and Ferrothorn to spam spikes and rocks, and then 5 seconds later, the opponent's Kyurem would launch my entire team to hell. Now that Kyurem is gone, I can finally have a good pivot option without having to worry about getting yoinked so easily.
tho a few things i see that would make your team of swampert and ferrothorn into disarray is...

Rillaboom used Swords Dance!

Rillaboom used Superpower!

Kartana used Whatever it wants honestly!

Zapdos used Hurricane!
(rain continues to fall.)

Urshifu used Close Combat
(rain continues to fall.)




A.K.A the 2 playstyles that got a huge boost after the kyurem ban
 
tho a few things i see that would make your team of swampert and ferrothorn into disarray is...

Rillaboom used Swords Dance!

Rillaboom used Superpower!

Kartana used Whatever it wants honestly!

Zapdos used Hurricane!
(rain continues to fall.)

Urshifu used Close Combat
(rain continues to fall.)




A.K.A the 2 playstyles that got a huge boost after the kyurem ban
tbf kartana and rillaboom are also some of its biggest partners in crime, since grass spam is one of the teamstyles that swampert fits onto the best
 

Finchinator

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Swampert is always going to be mediocre (and that’s putting it generously). It’s a fun Pokemon and viable, but a vast majority of teams prefer a different Ground type rocker and a more durable Water type with some semblance of recovery or underlying support (I.e: Misty Terrain from Fini). The specific role compression Swampert provides fits on a small handful of viable teams and that much keeps it ranked, but Kyurem being banned does not change the fact that it is hard to justify because everything else it competes with for different roles also lost to Kyurem realistically (see: aforementioned Ground and Water types). I do not think much has changed with regards to Swampert and I do not think much will moving forward either.
 

Red Raven

I COULD BE BANNED!
Hey guys. I wanna share a little set that I've been enjoying a couple weeks ago and it's gonna be familiar to those of us who plays a lot of gen seven ou. I've mentioned this a couple times but never went into detail about the set. I was gonna make this post last week but shit happened and wasn't able to so


:hard stone::sm/garchomp::hard stone:
Garchomp @ Hard Stone
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock

- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
I did say it was familiar. In gen seven ou, Garchomp is arguably the single best rock setter in the tier with its z move set allowing it to beat every defogger except for Mega Latias. Now, both Latis are barely viable in the tier and using them is gonna be a huge challenge plus they probably won't have defog unless the team is really desperate for it. Enter hard stone Garchomp, which I consider as the best rock setter even in this generation. Before I go on, I wanna explain what makes a rock setter the best, for me at least. That rock setter must be able to accomplish these three things

- good at setting rocks, obviously
- not immediately die or get walled by a common defogger
- and lastly, have very little opportunity cost in committing to the role

The last one is especially relevant because of a certain bird that makes it very easy to defog. Smack down Landorus might seem like a better option to deal with it but the problem with that set is the third requirement. Smack down has a major opportunity cost and Landorus has a very painful moveslot syndrome in which it wants five moves but can only fit four. This is where Garchomp comes in. Unlike other rockers in the tier, committing to this role only has the opportunity cost of not using scale shot. While that may make Garchomp significantly less threatening, it's not that huge in the grand scheme of things are there are a lot of mons that can sweep and scale shot can be a very frustrating move to use. When I've had enough of the scale shot bs, I decided to dip into the one advantage this landshark has over nearly every mon in the entire tier, item versatility. Unlike most other rockers, Garchomp doesn't have a bottomless movepool to choose from but instead has a bottomless item choices

This is exactly what this offensive stealth rock does. With hard stone, Garchomp's stone miss gains just enough power to two shot the standard defog Corviknight while other defoggers such as Tornadus, Zapdos, Fini and the rare Mandibuzz can't handle boosted Garchomps that much. Even Landorus would have trouble tanking the stone edges boosted by the stone especially if it takes rocks damage coming in. Here are the calcs that this accomplishes

+2 252 Atk Hard Stone Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 196-231 (49.1 - 57.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Hard Stone Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 92 Def Tornadus-Therian: 282-334 (78.1 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Tapu Fini: 223-264 (64.8 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Hard Stone Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 212-250 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Hard Stone Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 96-113 (25.1 - 29.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

+1 252 Atk Hard Stone Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 215-253 (56.2 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Hard Stone Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Mandibuzz: 418-494 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

As the calcs show, stone miss boosted by hard stone allows Garchomp to beat these common defoggers with little cost whatsoever. If the opposing defogger is not Corviknight, then Garchomp can even afford to lose its item because the hard stone is only relevant against Corviknight. Even without hard stone, Landorus is not gonna enjoy taking the stone misses especially if Garchomp's current goal is just to harrass it so it can boost up later and finish the irritating flying lion off

So, what teammates would work well with this set? Why, :greninja-ash: of course. These two form an incredible hazard stacking duo last gen so why wouldn't it work here. Oh wait.... F

Anyway, without Greninja, the one who would benefit from this the most is :Kartana:, mainly :choice scarf: variants. Garchomp's ability to get rid of all of scarf Kartana's enemies makes it a very threatening mon to face especially since it outspeeds everything barring the mons with the weather speed abilities. Another good mon that works well is :choice specs: :tapu Lele: since Garchomp puts a lot of pressure on Corviknight and Ferrothorn, Lele can spam its psychics to its heart's content, or moonblasts if there is a dark type. It's not just those two. This offensive stealth rock set of Garchomp works well with nearly every single mon provided they can accomplish these roles, speed control, that's a must, and choiced wall breakers like :Blacephalon:. However, the one mon that this set does not synergize that well with is :dragapult:, surprisingly. This is because this Garchomp set cannot afford the roselie berry which means that opposing scarf Leles are gonna have a field day and scarf Leles are usually reserved at the very end of the battle. Other good teammates include :rotom-wash: or :tornadus-therian: who can get Garchomp into position to boost up when they bait in their checks such as :heatran: or :slowking-galar:. Aside from the absolute requirement of speed control for the team, any teammate would do just fine and this would allow you to use a utility / defensive core that doesn't have stealth rock as a member of your offensive core has it and can reliably pressure the defoggers

Well, that's the set I've been using thus far. Hope you guys enjoyed your christmas
 
Hey, okay so im seeing crawdaunt more on the ladder and can i ppint out that this thing is just disgusting and should be banned? It can just switch in on something it forces out and use sd. Lorb and adap are enough to crush teams the only switch in fini gets easily chipped and doesnt want its leftovers knocked. Its stabs are hard to switch in to as i said only fini can do this and isnt reliable at all. Defensively answering daunt is too hard you can revenge kill it with lele and bulu but these dont want to switch in. Other faster mons that could "revenge kill" it take loads from aqua jet. Koko gets ohkod for example and pult 2hkod. Can we ban this thing?
 
Hey, okay so im seeing crawdaunt more on the ladder and can i ppint out that this thing is just disgusting and should be banned? It can just switch in on something it forces out and use sd. Lorb and adap are enough to crush teams the only switch in fini gets easily chipped and doesnt want its leftovers knocked. Its stabs are hard to switch in to as i said only fini can do this and isnt reliable at all. Defensively answering daunt is too hard you can revenge kill it with lele and bulu but these dont want to switch in. Other faster mons that could "revenge kill" it take loads from aqua jet. Koko gets ohkod for example and pult 2hkod. Can we ban this thing?

Just use Restalk Poliwrath bro.
 

Finchinator

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Hey, okay so im seeing crawdaunt more on the ladder and can i ppint out that this thing is just disgusting and should be banned? It can just switch in on something it forces out and use sd. Lorb and adap are enough to crush teams the only switch in fini gets easily chipped and doesnt want its leftovers knocked. Its stabs are hard to switch in to as i said only fini can do this and isnt reliable at all. Defensively answering daunt is too hard you can revenge kill it with lele and bulu but these dont want to switch in. Other faster mons that could "revenge kill" it take loads from aqua jet. Koko gets ohkod for example and pult 2hkod. Can we ban this thing?
Crawdaunt is absolutely not worth banning and it is barely worth using altogether.

Tapu Fini and Urshifu-Rapid check it comfortably while fitting on balance, bulky offense, and offense outright. In terms of revenge killing, plenty of things can tank +2 Aqua Jet and do the trick such as Dragapult, Rillaboom, Kartana, Tapu Koko, Hydreigon, Garchomp, and the aforementioned Water types. In terms of defensive counterplay, it is true that it has few true counters, but for something so fragile and slow, it is far less of an issue in practice and there is still more counterplay for things like Crawdaunt than other top-tier offensive threats.
 
Crawdaunt is absolutely not worth banning and it is barely worth using altogether.

Tapu Fini and Urshifu-Rapid check it comfortably while fitting on balance, bulky offense, and offense outright. In terms of revenge killing, plenty of things can tank +2 Aqua Jet and do the trick such as Dragapult, Rillaboom, Kartana, Tapu Koko, Hydreigon, Garchomp, and the aforementioned Water types. In terms of defensive counterplay, it is true that it has few true counters, but for something so fragile and slow, it is far less of an issue in practice and there is still more counterplay for things like Crawdaunt than other top-tier offensive threats.
Daunt just knocks them and switches out fini has no recovery is easioy chipped untill the point where crabhammer probably kills.
Crabhammers higher crit chancr is just ridiculous including this. If crabhammer crits at +2 that will do loads (idk of aqua jet kills after or not)
 

TailGlowVM

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Daunt just knocks them and switches out fini has no recovery is easioy chipped untill the point where crabhammer probably kills.
Crabhammers higher crit chancr is just ridiculous including this. If crabhammer crits at +2 that will do loads (idk of aqua jet kills after or not)
But those traits (lack of recovery on defensive Pokemon, critical hits) apply to everything. If that's your argument here, Crawdaunt shouldn't be your priority for a ban over numerous other offensive threats that easily wear down their checks over a game and have similar 20 or 30% chances to beat otherwise "hard" counters, a list which is far too long to start on in this post
 

Finchinator

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Daunt just knocks them and switches out fini has no recovery is easioy chipped untill the point where crabhammer probably kills.
Crabhammers higher crit chancr is just ridiculous including this. If crabhammer crits at +2 that will do loads (idk of aqua jet kills after or not)
For starters, a frail and slow LO Pokemon does not really have the luxury of being able to reap the benefits of chipping things with a knock Off in the long haul when the damage is negligible without other forms of chip — usually well under half health even with SR up and around a third without SR up.

In addition, your scenario is entirely irrelevant. Tapu Fini always outspeeds and OHKOs Crawdaunt. You will never get a chance to hit it with +2 because if it Swords Dances on the switch, it is either forced out or dies before being able to do anything beyond clicking Aqua Jet.

Your arguments are not grounded in reality whatsoever. I implore you to gain a bit more firsthand experience before proceeding
 
For starters, a frail and slow LO Pokemon does not really have the luxury of being able to reap the benefits of chipping things with a knock Off in the long haul when the damage is negligible without other forms of chip — usually well under half health even with SR up and around a third without SR up.

In addition, your scenario is entirely irrelevant. Tapu Fini always outspeeds and OHKOs Crawdaunt. You will never get a chance to hit it with +2 because if it Swords Dances on the switch, it is either forced out or dies before being able to do anything beyond clicking Aqua Jet.

Your arguments are not grounded in reality whatsoever. I implore you to gain a bit more firsthand experience before proceeding
Ah i get it then
 
But those traits (lack of recovery on defensive Pokemon, critical hits) apply to everything. If that's your argument here, Crawdaunt shouldn't be your priority for a ban over numerous other offensive threats that easily wear down their checks over a game and have similar 20 or 30% chances to beat otherwise "hard" counters, a list which is far too long to start on in this post
The same happened to kyurem tho its checks had no recovery (except scizor) and it could beat them more easily when they got frozen. Im not comparing them rn btw just reacting to your post.
 

Finchinator

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The same happened to kyurem tho its checks had no recovery (except scizor) and it could beat them more easily when they got frozen. Im not comparing them rn btw just reacting to your post.
Scizor, Blissey, and Clefable all had recovery. Tyranitar ran Rest on occasion, too, even. The issue was that Kyurem was quicker, had recovery of its own to maximize opportunities, and was not very fragile, allowing it to make the most of its versatility and presence.
 
Crawdaunt is a great mon running through fat and I love it for that on some particular teams; that said, it only becomes more of a genuine threat the fatter your own team gets. Daunt having the bulk of wet toilet paper and the speed of a snail with a broken leg makes it difficult to set up vs any team that can play offensively and virtually impossible to utilise long term vs such teams. Fantastic at dismantling defensive cores pretty indiscriminately sure but vs any opponent with half-decent risk/reward assessment it's way too hit or miss to consider on a lot of teams compared to the available lures, trappers, and generally overwhelming offensive cores which have much more focused targeting in what they can remove or force chip on that makes game plans go a lot smoother. If you're having difficulty dealing with Crawdaunt then likely: you're playing your team too passively and giving it way too many opportunities to make progress since it's not a mon that's best handled defensively, your risk/reward assessment needs some polishing, or you're running generic stall (in which case you need to accept that you're playing the matchup fish game already).
 

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