Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]

[peng]

It wasn’t deemed unbalanced in gen 3 and 4 as far as I know. One might argue that the combination of player preview and trapping is the problem, whereas I think that the unknown presence of a trapper only increases its power.
Is it good? Yes. Is it uncompetitive? Hell no. Trapping abilities are not inherently uncompetitive since they are still unbanned in older gens, and magnezone is a trapper that never got banned in the first place even though it traps (albeit a smaller pokemon pool, we are dealing with trapping as an uncompetitive ability) in the same fashion.

So yea, don’t ban dugtrio since arena trap is not uncompetitive and it actually helps the meta dealing with offensive threats and stallbreakers.

In trying to counter argue you've hit the nail on the head perfectly here.

Widespread trapping (i.e. not Magnet Pull) has been uncompetitive in every generation since team preview has existed. The reasoning for this is obvious - when you have a trapping Pokemon, team preview basically lays out your entire gameplan for you. I could lay out a hundred examples of this across gens 5-8 but long story short, team preview tells you 1) what you can trap and 2) how your opponent could take advantage of Dugtrio after a trap. This introduces wayyyyy too many, overly straight-forward, team match-uppy situations like "if I use Dugtrio to trap Cinderace, and keep my Sylveon healthy enough not to be counterswept by the following Dragapult, I win".

There are so many ways to tailor your team to use Dugtrio to manufacture win conditions that your opponent can't reasonably prepare for without slapping Shed Shell everywhere. I'm talking things like random U-turn mons + Dugtrio, SubProtect Dugtrio + TSpikes/Toxic which can remove Seismitoad, the niche Trick Iron Ball + Dugtrio which can even remove some Corviknight variants - you can't feasibly prepare for all this stuff, but Team Preview gives the user a ridiculous amount of information to lay out their game plan and because of Arena Trap, once the plan is in motion, you're helpless. I'm sure smarter people than I will work out some more absurd ways to autowin certain match-ups with niche Dugtrio set-ups. I'm not saying it takes zero skill to pull off, but it shifts a disproportionate amount of skill into the teambuilding stage, and away from the actual battle which is often a foregone conclusion.

Dugtrio isn't anywhere near as oppressive in ADV or DPP because you have to earn all the information you get. If my gameplan is to sweep with some offensive Electric-type in DPP, I have to dance around the first 15 turns of the game to firstly work out if my opponent has Tyranitar/Blissey/SDef Heatran, and then get in Dugtrio safely on Tyranitar later in the game. If I'm using Focus Sash Dugtrio, I have to keep hazards off the field in the generation where it is probably easiest to spinblock - no Defog, no Magic Bounce, and you're up against Ghost-type Rotom. Even then, I have to work out if my opponent has something like DD Gyarados or DD Dragonite that can use Dugtrio as set-up fodder and potentially sweep me - that information isn't handed to me. All the while, my opponent is going about their own gameplan, effectively winning 6v5 because I can't bring Dugtrio in whatsover until I know if there's a Tyranitar/Blissey/SDef Heatran on the opposing side. This means that playing with a trapper in early gens, particularly DPP, means you have to start "hot" so that you can get as much information as you can, early as you can, without losing so many resources that you've lost even when you successfully trap.

I'm strongly of the opinion that Dugtrio is busted with Team Preview, I've been saying it since 2012 lol (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/trapping-in-bw2.3473523/)

 

[Deleted User 229847]

I see your point but is earning that information that expensive? I mean, absence of information about a possible enemy trapper is still a huge advantage because it basically changes the way you have to play the game, hindering yourself in order to not lose a pokemon. Your opponent doesn't immediately know what to trap that's true, but it's still easier for the dugtrio's side to see one trappable mon once that it is to scout for dugtrio, you basically only have phazing as an option.
I also disagree that arena trap is widespread trapping, it's actually fairly limited since no ghosts nor flying tipes can be trapped. Not even shadow tag is widespread given the fact that ghosts can excape it anyway, for what is worth. Is trapping uncompetitive? Fine, then let's ban the trap abilities. I am fine with reaching such a conclusion.

 

[Robhand]

How is used flareon now?

 

[AnimaticLunatic]

My

How is used flareon now?

It still has same niche. Niche pokemon, especially in C tire, are rarely, if ever used. They just fufill there niche. For flareon, it being a good fairy (mostly Clefable) counter with wish pass.

 

[Robhand]

My


It still has same niche. Niche pokemon, especially in C tire are rarely, if ever used. They just fufill there niche. For flareon, it being a good fairy (mostly Clefable) counter with wish pass.

So the same set of ever?

 

[AnimaticLunatic]

So the same set of ever?

I have not seen it. I think it is basically same.

 

[The Zestiest]

Flareon still a little underrated imo. Not saying it should rise on the VR, but it can check a lot of special threats, not just Clefable (it just so happens to be really good at checking Clef). Set is typically Flare Blitz, Wish, Protect, Yawn/Will-o-Wisp, and max SpDef and HP

 

[Mango Smoothie]

Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

I think that that Arena Trap (and trapping in general) fit the tiering policy definition of uncompetitive. The Tiering Policy definition of Skill comes down to Battling + Teambuilding, just to be sure that that's set out there. I'm going to focus on Arena Trap & Dugtrio but replace that with basically any trapper and my thoughts are the same.

Dugtrio removing the option to switch is about as clear an example of "reducing player choice...on the end result" as I can think of. In this situation the "end result" can be taken as a pokemon dying, or even simpler what the field looks like at the end of the turn. During any turn a player has effectively two types of options: Switch or use a Move. Under trapping effects, there is no switching, the game immediately becomes a 1v6 situation. If, for example, my opponent brings in Dugtrio on my Toxtricity, then Toxtricity is dead. In this situation Arena Trap reduces 'the effect of my choices on the end result' (the result here being Toxtricity dying) by removing my choice to switch out (that I otherwise always have). It doesn't matter if all 5 of my other pokemon are healthy enough to take an EQ (battle skill), or if I have Corviknight waiting in the wings (hah puns) because I know Toxtricity can let in ground-types (teambuilding skill).

Not being able to switch affects the games in more ways than just letting it kill things. If you have a grounded pokemon that's toxic-ed and needs to reset the Toxic counter, you can't if you're trapped. If your defensive wall is stuck in VS Dugtrio, even it doesn't kill you pokemon like Ferrothorn/Seismitoad take 30% from a Jolly Dugtrio Earthquake. Or it can Screech as you kill it, which if you don't do with a pivoting move means you're now at -2 Defense. These are meant to illustrate other ways in which the player whose pokemon is trapped has reduced choice on the end result of a turn, again because Dugtrio removes the ability to switch.

The main counter-argument to this I see is that "in a metagame with trapping, 'skillful play' has a different meaning, just like any metagame threat warps skillful play around itself" to which I say that the extent to which trapping warps "skillful play" is unacceptable (due to it removing the most basic form of counterplay in "switching to something that can handle the Trapper"). If my opponent has Dugtrio+Corviknight on their team, then killing anything with Toxtricity (i.e. free switch-in for Dugtrio) before I guarantee Corviknight is dead would be 'unskillful' from a battling perspective, since it amounts to me 'needlessly saccing' Toxtricity before it deals with Corviknight. This is different than Dragapult's presence on the other side changing how often I roost with Mandibuzz, or Excadrill's presence making me more careful about spamming Volt Switch, because even if I let these threats in then there is still some potential for counterplay.

tl;dr: Dugtrio (and trapping) removing the ability to switch reduces "the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that 'more skillful play' is almost always rendered irrelevant" which is (quite literally) the definition of uncompetitive. This is the case for both teambuilding and battling skill because your switch-in cannot come in until Dugtrio has done its job. I'm a fan of a quick ban.

 

[Yung Dramps]

So Arena Trap recently got quickbanned in National Dex OU. Now before anyone gets on my case about this let it be known I am in fact not that stupid and am perfectly aware that National Dex and Galar Dex OU are two radically different formats that are largely incomparable. However, I want to draw attention to this specific part of the ban announcement:

The reason why we are approaching Arena Trap as a whole however mainly falls in line on how we approached Shadow Tag as well, in which the ability was inherently deemed uncompetitive and we would like to avoid targeting specific abusers of such ability and cause a domino affect of bans which will not only waste time, but delay the metagame in progressing to a a more competitive pathway.

Despite the aforementioned massive differences between these two formats, I believe this statement applies equally to Galar Dex. Let's face it people: Banning just Dugtrio and not Arena Trap itself is a fool's endeavor. You all know damn well that if the ability itself is inexplicably allowed to stay someone WILL find a way to use Diglett or Trapinch to achieve much the same mayhem, just as was proven back in the suspect on Dugtrio back in Gen 7. Arena Trap is the root of the problem, Arena Trap is inherently uncompetitive, so instead of playing the same stupid game we did back in Gen 7 and prior and becoming a living example of the "definition of insanity" quote (I mean we've already achieved that by not instabanning Arena Trap alongside Dynamax but w/e), let's put an end to this madness before it gets to the level of Diglett/Trapinch abuse and either quickban or suspect test Arena Trap itself.

 

[Talpr0ne]

Can I ask what is the reason for treating Arena Trap separately from Shadow Tag in the first place? I have honestly never been convinced that not being able to trap Flying types is a good reason to treat the two things like they aren't effectively the same ability.

 

[galarian darmanitan]

I think arena trap should be suspected and not banned. Dugtrio is such a big piece of the meta (and a check to a lot of other strong mons). It’s possible the meta could shake out to be rather dogshit without dugtrio so a suspect might be a good idea just because of how the big the changes are that are being made.

I also think people are overreacting to duggys performance in tournament play. I would argue that having a trapper is inherently stronger in tournament play (or at high elos with few players) when there is a degree of prep and counter prep done before the game than it is to the masses (or alt accounts) in the shitter that is sub 1400. I could be wrong about this because I’m neither 1700+ nor do I play in tournaments but at least from a logical conjecture standpoint I think it’s sound.

Not that dugtrio isn’t a disgusting mon.

 

[2bainz]

I think arena trap should be suspected and not banned. Dugtrio is such a big piece of the meta (and a check to a lot of other strong mons). It’s possible the meta could shake out to be rather dogshit without dugtrio so a suspect might be a good idea just because of how the big the changes are that are being made.

I also think people are overreacting to duggys performance in tournament play. I would argue that having a trapper is inherently stronger in tournament play (or at high elos with few players) when there is a degree of prep and counter prep done before the game than it is to the masses (or alt accounts) in the shitter that is sub 1400. I could be wrong about this because I’m neither 1700+ nor do I play in tournaments but at least from a logical conjecture standpoint I think it’s sound.

Not that dugtrio isn’t a disgusting mon.

Just because Dugtrio doesn't see as much usage on lower ladder shouldn't factor into the discussion at all. High ladder and tournament play should be what's used when determining if something is broken or over-centralizing, because if a Pokemon is exceptional there it will be due to the mon itself, not any player's lack of knowledge or experience.

Also imaging a post-Dugtrio meta isn't grounds for not banning/suspecting it either, because a. it's theory-crafting, and b. if the metagame is problematic post-ban, then steps would be taken to fix it anyways. Some people said a post-GDarm meta would only be fat and stall-y, which clearly is not the case.

 

[viol and bass]

Can I ask what is the reason for treating Arena Trap separately from Shadow Tag in the first place? I have honestly never been convinced that not being able to trap Flying types is a good reason to treat the two things like they aren't effectively the same ability.

This is an interesting point. Every mon with a trapping ability has limits on what it can effectively trap and eliminate. Nothing can trap ghosts, but also Gothitelle can't eliminate Tyranitar or Hydreigon by virtue of their typings or whatever. But that doesn't really make Gothitelle or Shadow Tag less broken. Teams would be built around Gothitelle's ability to eliminate different mons. Similarly, not being able to eliminate non-grounded mons doesn't reduce the brokenness of Arena Trap, because teams will simply be built around Dugtrio's ability to trap grounded mons. You always use trappers to remove specific targets that are otherwise problematic for your team. Having a wider or smaller pool of potential targets doesn't change the brokenness of being able to trap and eliminate what you need to eliminate.

 

[Spero14]

Just because Dugtrio doesn't see as much usage on lower ladder shouldn't factor into the discussion at all. High ladder and tournament play should be what's used when determining if something is broken or over-centralizing, because if a Pokemon is exceptional there it will be due to the mon itself, not any player's lack of knowledge or experience.

Also imaging a post-Dugtrio meta isn't grounds for not banning/suspecting it either, because a. it's theory-crafting, and b. if the metagame is problematic post-ban, then steps would be taken to fix it anyways. Some people said a post-GDarm meta would only be fat and stall-y, which clearly is not the case.

Didn't the most recent SPL rounds have teams with Dugtrio at a less than 50 win percentage? Not sure if I read that right before. Personally don't have any issues with Dugtrio.

 

[Robot7620]

A recent trend I've noticed is that Pex is often dropping Toxic for Toxic Spikes.
It is usually paired with Rotom-Heat to pressure Corviknight and Mandibuzz, some have even been running scarf to beat Excadrill.
These two work magnificently together, as the opponent usually doesn't have something to beat heattom that's impervious to toxic spikes bar there own Pex.
Toad would have to get toxic'd to beat it, and as these heattoms have been running discharge over status, this puts you in an extremely unfavorable situation unless you're like me and run boots flareon as your spdef wall.
;-; just some obversation

 

[2bainz]

Didn't the most recent SPL rounds have teams with Dugtrio at a less than 50 win percentage? Not sure if I read that right before. Personally don't have any issues with Dugtrio.

Overall from the first two weeks of SPL, Dug is top 10 in usage and has a 53% win rate, comparable to Clefable (55%), Toxapex (54%) and Rotom-H (53%), and higher than Corviknight, Dragapult, Hydreigon, among others. (link) Still a very small sample size, but progressively as the ladder goes up, Dugtrio sees more and more use (4.9% at 1000, to 10.9% at 1825).

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

Except we're not at all and I'm not even sure how you could possibly think this. We're talking about Dugtrio's effects on the metagame right now, not in some theoretical metagame or on some theoretical user. Did you, like, read any of the other posts on this thread, or only read that one part of a single post and think that it was a summary of the entire argument against Arena Trap?

I was not arguing for or against a ban of Arena Trap/Dugtrio. I was arguing against one specific point the pro-ban side is making, the "you know Arena Trap is broken when it makes a shitmon like Dugtrio a threat in OU" argument. I believe that, regardless of whether Dugtrio actually is busted, it is the weakest point that the pro-ban side makes.

For what it's worth, I do think Dugtrio in particular is broken.

You all know damn well that if the ability itself is inexplicably allowed to stay someone WILL find a way to use Diglett or Trapinch to achieve much the same mayhem, just as was proven back in the suspect on Dugtrio back in Gen 7.

Trapinch was never used in a serious capacity during the Dugtrio/Arena Trap tests, and "we've gone through this before" isn't a valid argument when Gen 7 and Gen 8 are completely different metas. We have no idea how effective it currently is at trapping, and that does matter: Pursuit and Magnet Pull have never been up for discussion in terms of suspects because they could not trap the majority of Pokemon. Making rash decisions just because we want to hurry up and get the other suspects over with seems like a bad idea in the long run. We've suspected Dugtrio twice before, we can do so again.

 

[Deleted User 229847]

Overall from the first two weeks of SPL, Dug is top 10 in usage and has a 53% win rate, comparable to Clefable (55%), Toxapex (54%) and Rotom-H (53%), and higher than Corviknight, Dragapult, Hydreigon, among others. (link) Still a very small sample size, but progressively as the ladder goes up, Dugtrio sees more and more use (4.9% at 1000, to 10.9% at 1825).

When 60% of the teams bring clefable to the game winrate is pretty useless as a statistic. I also believe winrate to be a terrible stat in general, especially when used with a small pool of games.

Having a wider or smaller pool of potential targets doesn't change the brokenness of being able to trap and eliminate what you need to eliminate.

For what is worth, this means magnet pull should be banned too (which is something I advocate)

 

[Empress Mobile]

I definitely advocate for banning Arena Trap. With Team Preview it's simply too easy to plan out the abuse of the trapping mechanic while reliably being able to avoid a countertrap situation. It's nauseating to see how much it warps gameplay and teambuilding. The number of Pokemon that become utterly helpless upon Dugtrio switching in is staggering. Unlike with Magnezone in previous generations, these Pokemon have no way of dealing with Dugtrio other than running Scarf, and in that case can still be easily trapped if they are locked into the wrong move. I get why it was reintroduced to the metagame but I really feel it's been given its fair shake , and the same excessive high functioning it brought to several playstyles in the last 3 gens is still present in gen 8.

 

[Dragoon Rider]

Calm Mind Clefable is vastly underutilized. LO+3 and Defensive seem to be mostly what are run now but CM should really be used more.

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Moonlight

I know, I know. No fire move. But who are the main steel types in OU that can switch in and threaten Clef? Ferro, Aegislash, and Exca. Just run mons that lure and burn ferro and it can't do anything to you, even if it has gyro. Excadrill can be hard walled by a Corviknight on your team and can't switch into moonblast repeatedly since it is 3HKOd. Aegislash varies on the set but won't be keeping Clef away for very long since it will fall to 3 thunderbolts if it is not invested.

Many of the Clef checks like rotom, defensive clef, or sylveon rely on LO clef not being able to break them but they can just be boosted past with calm mind. It puts immense pressure on teams since it destroys slower cores, is immune to poison and hazards, and is very hard for offense to switch into. It's also very difficult to KO when boosted due to having very few weaknesses.

 

[Robot7620]

Calm Mind Clefable is vastly underutilized. LO+3 and Defensive seem to be mostly what are run now but CM should really be used more.

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Moonlight

I know, I know. No fire move. But who are the main steel types in OU that can switch in and threaten Clef? Ferro, Aegislash, and Exca. Just run mons that lure and burn ferro and it can't do anything to you, even if it has gyro. Excadrill can be hard walled by a Corviknight on your team and can't switch into moonblast repeatedly since it is 3HKOd. Aegislash varies on the set but won't be keeping Clef away for very long since it will fall to 3 thunderbolts if it is not invested.

Many of the Clef checks like rotom, defensive clef, or sylveon rely on LO clef not being able to break them but they can just be boosted past with calm mind. It puts immense pressure on teams since it destroys slower cores, is immune to poison and hazards, and is very hard for offense to switch into. It's also very difficult to KO when boosted due to having very few weaknesses.

CM Clef is an actual set on defensive just switch out rocks/t-wave for Calm Mind.
If you want to put CM on LO Clef i suggest putting CM over Moonlight.
And washtom is the only one who can "lure" and burn ferro and most of the time Toad wants to be your wash-tom switch in plus washtom is kinda mediocre.
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 84-100 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 29.5% chance to 3HKO
here's the aegis calc btw
And aegis one shots back, no matter whether it's specs or band.

 

[peng]

This is an interesting point. Every mon with a trapping ability has limits on what it can effectively trap and eliminate. Nothing can trap ghosts, but also Gothitelle can't eliminate Tyranitar or Hydreigon by virtue of their typings or whatever. But that doesn't really make Gothitelle or Shadow Tag less broken. Teams would be built around Gothitelle's ability to eliminate different mons. Similarly, not being able to eliminate non-grounded mons doesn't reduce the brokenness of Arena Trap, because teams will simply be built around Dugtrio's ability to trap grounded mons. You always use trappers to remove specific targets that are otherwise problematic for your team. Having a wider or smaller pool of potential targets doesn't change the brokenness of being able to trap and eliminate what you need to eliminate.

For what is worth, this means magnet pull should be banned too (which is something I advocate)

This is getting into cross-generational, tiering ethos discussions but just wanted to point out that the variety of Pokemon that can be trapped does work out to be a huge determining factor in how "uncompetitive" a particularly trapping ability is, because it alters how feasibly you can prepare for a trapper.

Needless to say, Shadow Tag is pretty busted, shouldn't need to cover this.

You'd have a tough time arguing Magnet Pull is uncompetitive because the pool of Pokemon that it traps is so small that you can feasibly Magnezone-proof yourself if you wanted to. If we look to BW OU, which is one of the cleaner examples, Magnezone is used to remove Ferrothorn and Skarmory in order to support offensive Dragons or stuff like offensive Lando-T. In this way, Magnezone literally defines a team archtype, and its plan of action is predictable enough that you can prepare for it at the teambuilding stage. You can see this in the way the metagame has adapted to the presence of Magnezone - there are very, very few teams that rely solely on Ferrothorn to answer Latios (maybe pairing with Tyranitar for extra insurance, for example), and those that do may use Shed Shell or Worry Seed to deter Magnezone. Similarly, very few teams rely solely on Skarmory to beat Dragonite, and pair it with something like Landorus-T or a secondary steel like Heatran.

The only reason you can prepare in this way, however, is because scope of things that Magnezone can trap is so slim, and the Pokemon that can take advantage of a trapped steel are also quite slim. For this reason, its less that Magnet Pull is uncompetitive, and more that you've messed up at the teambuilding stage if you overly rely on a Pokemon that you know is easily trapped and ended up losing to a completely forecasted sweeper.

Its here where Dugtrio and Arena Trap differ. Dugtrio can trap 3-4 Pokemon on the average team (i.e. 25 of the top 40 mons on viability rankings), and can be tailored to support a huge variety of threats. We've seen things like Steel Wing Dragapult, which keeps Clefable / Sylveon weak enough to get trapped by Dugtrio and open up a hole. There are a huge number of Pokemon that appreciate those Fairies being removed. Alternatively, U-turn mons can safely get Dugtrio in against Toxapex for a trap 70% of the time. That's a completely different set of Pokemon that Dugtrio now supports through Toxapex removal. Dugtrio on stall can then act to remove wallbreakers such as Dracovish, Dracozolt, and Toxtricity with relative ease, again supporting a completely distinct set of defensive Pokemon. The list goes on.

Just about everything benefits from some Dugtrio variant. In BW, you prepare for Magnezone by either making your steel untrappable (Shed Shell / Worry Seed) or by doubling up on counters to known Magnezone partners. However, Gen 8 Dugtrio has so many viable partners depending on what is targeted for removal that in order to actually prepare for it, you either have to run Sub / Shed Shell on any grounded mon, EV everything out of the range of CB Earthquake, or you have to double up on counters to everything. Obviously you don't have the resources to beat everything twice over, so eventually you'll lose via team match-up to random mon + Dugtrio that you didn't have the room to counter twice over.

 

[Tacotaco]

I wish people would be more specific with their arguments when it comes to banning Arena Trap as a whole instead of just Dugtrio. Whenever a potential Arena Trap ban is discussed, most of the arguments talk about Dutrio abusing it with the occasional "If Dugtrio leaves, Diglett and Trapinch would still perform similar roles" or "trapping in general is a broken/uncompetitive mechanic", which are honestly very weak arguments without proper support.

In the gen 7 meta, if Eviolite gets banned, Blissey would replace Chansey as the premier special wall, just less effective. If Magnezone gets banned, Magneton would replace it as the Steel trapper, just less effective. If Dugtrio gets banned, Trapinch and Diglett would replace it as a trapper, but would be even way less effective. I understand why Dugtrio was banned because it really was the definition of broken and uncompetitive since it could trap Pokémon it shouldn't trap like Lele, Medicham, Zard X, or even Kyurem-B. Diglett and Trapinch trap way less Pokémon, and can't even trap some of Dugtrio's easy targets like Magearna or Toxapex 100% effectively. This is why the "performing similar roles" argument isn't even a good argument. Niche Pokémon popping up as a replacement when their more effective version gets banned isn't new. A similar case happened when Vileplume suddenly became viable in gen 7 UU to combat Serperior, Azumarill, and Breloom when Amonguus rose to OU.

As for trapping in general being a broken/uncompetitive mechanic, if that really is true, then Magnet Pull should also be banned (although I see a few players who believe that Magnet Pull should also be banned so kudos to them for their consistent logic). If widespread trapping is the broken and uncompetitive mechanic, then Pursuit should also be banned. Arena Trap on Trapinch/Diglett is more comparable to Pursuit and Magnet Pull than Arena Trap on Dugtrio or Shadow Tag in terms of what it can BOTH TRAP AND ELIMINATE. Diglett and Trapinch can only trap a select few of the metagame reliably, just like Pursuit and Magnet Pull.

I've made a similar post before in one of the gen 7 OU forums about why Arena Trap is banned as a whole and what makes it different from Magnet Pull, and the only good argument that was given to me was that Arena Trap's problem is not how many Pokémon Diglett/Trapinch can trap and eliminate effectively, but how you have the freedom to do whatever you want on many Pokémon, no matter how small the trapper's contribution is. That person further explained this with Diglett vs Bulu. A Pokémon like Diglett would never beat Bulu, but Diglett has the ability to force a Toxic on Bulu, which could make it much easier to deal with for stall teams. Now I personally think sacking your Pokémon just to guarantee a Toxic on Bulu isn't too unfavorable for either side and isn't enough to make me support an Arena Trap ban since you are essentially sacrificing a team slot just to guarantee a Toxic on one specific Pokemon (Magneonze trapping Skarmory or Celesteela is more advantageous despite it not trapping everything), but it is enough to make me understand and accept why Arena Trap is banned and why Pursuit and Magnet Pull isn't as problematic as Arena Trap.

Having the freedom to force yourself to do whatever you want on a specific Pokémon would mean that Arena Trap can be considered uncompetitive by Smogon's definition, but not broken on weaker Pokémon. Even then, I'm still not convinced that it is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban because again, you are sacking one Pokémon for at least a guaranteed Toxic and at most a Pokémon that is weak to ground eliminated, which isn't that far from a typical Magnezone's contribution in an OU game. Replays showing Diglett and Trapinch being doing a consistent and effective job on multiple games might change my mind. On the other hand, Dugtrio can be considered uncompetitive because it both traps and eliminates way more Pokémon and even broken since it traps Pokémon like Lele, Kyurem-B, etc. in addition to the Pokémon already weak to Ground moves.

Judging by the many posts, it's pretty obvious that people hate Arena Trap and would love to see it banned rather than think more objectively about the issue. I thought that I wouldn't see anymore bad arguments in any of the gen 8 threads like "Arena Trap is broken/uncompetitive because it makes a weak Pokémon viable", or just straight up incorrect arguments like "it should have never been unbanned because nothing changed has changed since gen 7" and "forcing a player to not switch is removing a fundamental mechanic of the game like forcing a chess player not to move". I also hoped that I would see more people be more specific with their arguments, but again it's just the same old "performing similar roles" or "trapping is uncompetitive" without expounding on it much. I'm not as knowledgeable on the gen 8 OU meta yet, so my opinion on banning Dugtrio or Arena Trap isn't that important, but I hope I that my post would help make people give better insights when discussing Arena Trap.

Again, if people have replays of Trapinch and Diglett actually doing things that deem it consistently uncompetitive over multiple games (not iust limited to trapping and elimating a select few Pokémon similar to Magnezone), I would love for them to post it.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Comparing Arena Trap in any capacity to Magnet Pull is a farce because the scope of what they trap is absolutely incomparable. Magnet Pull, as peng described, literally only works on one type, which already makes it infinitely easier to prep for since you can react accordingly upon seeing a Magnezone or just slap on a Shed Shell or some other counter tech in the teambuilder. On the other hand, Arena Trap works on everything but two types + levitators. There is no conceivable way you can do Magnezone-style counter-teaming with every single suspectible Pokemon without gimping your team. In addition, 2 out of the 3 things that are immune to Arena Trap would beat Dugtrio anyway if it had any other ability. Mandibuzz, Corviknight, Rotom-Wash and so on were never gonna lose unless Dugtrio just so happened to have Mold Breaker or Huge Power or something. What this does is centralize the meta around Arena Trap and its few innate checks, which with the exception of the likes of Corviknight aren't infallible: Flyings are weak to Stone Edge, there are only a handful of viable Levitators and two of the 3 main ghosts get fricced by STAB EQ anyway even if they can switch out. An ability which eliminates an essential option for 6v6 play - the act of switching - from 88% of the type chart and Levitators has no place in a competitive environment.

 

[LordHelix]

I wish people would be more specific with their arguments when it comes to banning Arena Trap as a whole instead of just Dugtrio. Whenever a potential Arena Trap ban is discussed, most of the arguments talk about Dutrio abusing it with the occasional "If Dugtrio leaves, Diglett and Trapinch would still perform similar roles" or "trapping in general is a broken/uncompetitive mechanic", which are honestly very weak arguments without proper support.

In the gen 7 meta, if Eviolite gets banned, Blissey would replace Chansey as the premier special wall, just less effective. If Magnezone gets banned, Magneton would replace it as the Steel trapper, just less effective. If Dugtrio gets banned, Trapinch and Diglett would replace it as a trapper, but would be even way less effective. I understand why Dugtrio was banned because it really was the definition of broken and uncompetitive since it could trap Pokémon it shouldn't trap like Lele, Medicham, Zard X, or even Kyurem-B. Diglett and Trapinch trap way less Pokémon, and can't even trap some of Dugtrio's easy targets like Magearna or Toxapex 100% effectively. This is why the "performing similar roles" argument isn't even a good argument. Niche Pokémon popping up as a replacement when their more effective version gets banned isn't new. A similar case happened when Vileplume suddenly became viable in gen 7 UU to combat Serperior, Azumarill, and Breloom when Amonguus rose to OU.

As for trapping in general being a broken/uncompetitive mechanic, if that really is true, then Magnet Pull should also be banned (although I see a few players who believe that Magnet Pull should also be banned so kudos to them for their consistent logic). If widespread trapping is the broken and uncompetitive mechanic, then Pursuit should also be banned. Arena Trap on Trapinch/Diglett is more comparable to Pursuit and Magnet Pull than Arena Trap on Dugtrio or Shadow Tag in terms of what it can BOTH TRAP AND ELIMINATE. Diglett and Trapinch can only trap a select few of the metagame reliably, just like Pursuit and Magnet Pull.

I've made a similar post before in one of the gen 7 OU forums about why Arena Trap is banned as a whole and what makes it different from Magnet Pull, and the only good argument that was given to me was that Arena Trap's problem is not how many Pokémon Diglett/Trapinch can trap and eliminate effectively, but how you have the freedom to do whatever you want on many Pokémon, no matter how small the trapper's contribution is. That person further explained this with Diglett vs Bulu. A Pokémon like Diglett would never beat Bulu, but Diglett has the ability to force a Toxic on Bulu, which could make it much easier to deal with for stall teams. Now I personally think sacking your Pokémon just to guarantee a Toxic on Bulu isn't too unfavorable for either side and isn't enough to make me support an Arena Trap ban since you are essentially sacrificing a team slot just to guarantee a Toxic on one specific Pokemon (Magneonze trapping Skarmory or Celesteela is more advantageous despite it not trapping everything), but it is enough to make me understand and accept why Arena Trap is banned and why Pursuit and Magnet Pull isn't as problematic as Arena Trap.

Having the freedom to force yourself to do whatever you want on a specific Pokémon would mean that Arena Trap can be considered uncompetitive by Smogon's definition, but not broken on weaker Pokémon. Even then, I'm still not convinced that it is uncompetitive enough to warrant a ban because again, you are sacking one Pokémon for at least a guaranteed Toxic and at most a Pokémon that is weak to ground eliminated, which isn't that far from a typical Magnezone's contribution in an OU game. Replays showing Diglett and Trapinch being doing a consistent and effective job on multiple games might change my mind. On the other hand, Dugtrio can be considered uncompetitive because it both traps and eliminates way more Pokémon and even broken since it traps Pokémon like Lele, Kyurem-B, etc. in addition to the Pokémon already weak to Ground moves.

Judging by the many posts, it's pretty obvious that people hate Arena Trap and would love to see it banned rather than think more objectively about the issue. I thought that I wouldn't see anymore bad arguments in any of the gen 8 threads like "Arena Trap is broken/uncompetitive because it makes a weak Pokémon viable", or just straight up incorrect arguments like "it should have never been unbanned because nothing changed has changed since gen 7" and "forcing a player to not switch is removing a fundamental mechanic of the game like forcing a chess player not to move". I also hoped that I would see more people be more specific with their arguments, but again it's just the same old "performing similar roles" or "trapping is uncompetitive" without expounding on it much. I'm not as knowledgeable on the gen 8 OU meta yet, so my opinion on banning Dugtrio or Arena Trap isn't that important, but I hope I that my post would help make people give better insights when discussing Arena Trap.

Again, if people have replays of Trapinch and Diglett actually doing things that deem it consistently uncompetitive over multiple games (not iust limited to trapping and elimating a select few Pokémon similar to Magnezone), I would love for them to post it.

To add to this, magnezone trapped about the same number of threats it did as diglett and trapinch theoritcally trap this gen

Last gen it trapped celesteela, skarmory, ferrothorn, defensive jirachi, scizor, kartana if scarfed and weakened av magearna. In addition to being hard to switch into in general if specs

Ill cover the threats trapinch and diglett can beat, diglett is the least reliable to due to its absolutely horrendous damage outout.

trapinch targets

Trapinch with sash traps tyranitar, excadrill, bisharp, dracozolt, crawdaunt (first impression has 30% chance to ohko after rocks), mamoswine (ohkos after rocks), toxtricity and drednaw

Situationally trapped pokemon are: toxapex (needs to be running max speed adamant and not get burned), ferrothorn (with super power if under 50%), dracovish (if under 50% and sashed), clefable (if under 50%), cinderace (if sashed and cinderace is choice locked)

diglett targets

Diglett with sash traps tyranitar, excadrill, bisharp (when under 85%), dracozolt, toxtricity, drednaw and.. flareon

Situationally trapped pokemon are: toxapex (eq does 40% max), ferrothorn (if sub reversal and ferro is under 55%). Dracovish (if under 46% or if not scarf)

Basically from my "theorymon" they trap around the same amount of threats that magnezone trapped, and worse of all is they dont even offer any defensive utility or offensive presence like specs or av magnezone did. The babies are literally just there to trap one threat and thats it whereas dugtrio can trap tyranitar, excadrill and weakened clef or pex in the same game

Dugtrio is different to the other arena trappers and magnezone since cause it can afford to run band and still outspeed basically the whole metagame with its excellent speed tier. Or run sash and get more than 2 attacks on anything

#justiceforthebabies