You can't really make an argument abt natdex v/s galar since natdex is vastly different and w/ stuff like tran to be trapped it probably has a more severe impact in natdex OU.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
I responded in a non-serious fashion because the post did not warrant a serious response. Dugtrio is being discussed and action of some sort may be taken in the near future. Stay patient and I promise your questions will be answered, thank you!
As far as I can tell, the council is deciding the best way to approach this, whether it be a quickban or an official suspect. They're working on it and we'll know soon. I know it's a bit exasperating since we've been waiting for information for a bit now, and I do wish the OU council was a bit more open/more swift about communicating this, but now that we have confirmation that action is being taken and soon, I think waiting a bit longer for their say is the move.
January usage stats are up!
Rises
#7 (23.66%) > #3 (31.24%)
Over the last month, Clefable usage has only kept going up and it has finally hit #3. It's the most used SS OU mon in SPL and for good reason. It's a a reliable Dragapult switch-in that can absorb status absorber and keep teammates healthy with Wish. SPL has shown some interesting options in Clefable's 4th slot (the first 3 being Moonblast, Wish and Protect), such as Trick, Aromatherapy, and Thunder Wave. Calm Mind with Life Orb started getting some more usage and can be a menace for most teams to switch into.
#23 (8.411% ) > #16 (12.785%)
Dugtrio is back to trapping threats like it has in the past, and Choice Band sets are the most common ones at this point in time. Choice Band Dugtrio can remove specially defensive mons like Clefable and Sylveon, offensive mons like Excadrill, and then Toxapex as well. With Darmanitan leaving the tier, Dugtrio was able to run Choice Band again, and this has allowed it to become consistent at trapping the above targets.
#29 (5.341%) > #11 (16.391%)
Kommo-o usage has spiked up a lot as many teams are now relying on physically defensive Kommo-o for Stealth Rock. Unlike Seismitoad, Kommo-o comes with Bulletproof, which can grant teams a Shadow Ball immunity to help deal with Choice Specs Aegislash. Body Press hits fairly hard, and Body Press with Iron Defense allows Kommo-o to pressure Mandibuzz and Corviknight, both of which will usually want to remove Stealth Rock.
#30 (5.326%) > #17 (12.498%)
Sylveon continues to rise and is very similar to Clefable with the specially defensive set of Hyper Voice, Wish, and Protect. The 4th slot is usually Calm Mind or Mystical Fire, but there have been some other options like Quick Attack that have been used. While Sylveon has better bulk and higher damage output than Clefable, being affected by hazards and status is its largest disadvantage, and this can cause it to be worn down more quickly than Clefable. However, it is for this reason that Sylveon will usually be paired with teammates that do not mind status, such as Life Orb Clefable, Conkeldurr, Obstagoon, and Sigilyph.
#38 (3.613)> #21 (10.088%)
Cloyster is officially OU now. Shell Smash with King's Rock is very difficult to stop thanks to most teams forgoing a Choice Scarf user, preventing them from outspeeding and revenge killing it. Then there's also the fact that most slower switch-ins, like Toxapex, are prone to getting flinched, resulting in them being unable to touch Cloyster back.
#33 (4.494) > #27 (7.973%)
Obstagoon barely missed out on being OU last month, but it is finally OU. Obstagoon is a strong physical wall breaker that typically uses Facade, Knock Off and Close Combat. Not only do these moves have great coverage, but Obstagoon's great speed tier of 95 allows it to pressure and and force out common offensive mons like Rotom and Excadrill.
#40 (3.384% ) > #28 (7.405%)
Gengar is back in OU and has a few different sets, including Choice Scarf/Specs with Trick, Nasty Plot, and then Substitute with Wisp and Hex. Gengar sits at a phenomenal speed tier of 110, only being outsped by Cinderace, Dugtrio and Dragapult. It can switch into Clefable and Sylveon and then force them out, or set up a Sub/Nasty Plot if the opponent attempts to scout with Protect.
Drops
#9 (19.42%) > #30 (6.223%)
Ditto has continued to fall since dynamaxed was banned from OU. More teams are becoming bulky and Ditto's ability to abuse offensive mons is less desired than in the past.
#24 (8.316%) > #35 (4.228%)
Corsala-Galar has dropped out of OU and it was primarily because of how passive Corsala was in conjunction with how it could allow several big threats to freely switch in.
#32 (4.869% ) > #37 (3.556%)
Dracozolt saw a small dip in usage that has caused it to fall out of OU. This may have been due to Dugtrio's increased usage, or perhaps people stopped using it after losing games to Hustle's lower accuracy.
I'll leave the same questions below as I did last time:
1. How do you guys feel about the usage stats?
2. Outside of the ones I discussed above, are there any rises/drops that you expected or think are noteworthy?
3. Do you have an idea as to why other mons are higher in usage and why others have decreased or increased usage?
4. Which mons do you think will continue rising and which mons will continue dropping?
Code:
Combined usage for OU (1695 stats)
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Percent |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
| 1 | Dragapult | 40.620% |
| 2 | Corviknight | 37.548% |
| 3 | Clefable | 31.238% |
| 4 | Seismitoad | 30.491% |
| 5 | Excadrill | 25.752% |
| 6 | Hydreigon | 25.330% |
| 7 | Ferrothorn | 20.775% |
| 8 | Aegislash | 20.519% |
| 9 | Cinderace | 18.869% |
| 10 | Rotom-Heat | 17.299% |
| 11 | Kommo-o | 16.391% |
| 12 | Toxapex | 16.064% |
| 13 | Dracovish | 15.054% |
| 14 | Mandibuzz | 14.624% |
| 15 | Conkeldurr | 14.225% |
| 16 | Dugtrio | 12.785% |
| 17 | Sylveon | 12.498% |
| 18 | Bisharp | 11.457% |
| 19 | Hatterene | 11.051% |
| 20 | Grimmsnarl | 10.873% |
| 21 | Cloyster | 10.088% |
| 22 | Mew | 8.936% |
| 23 | Togekiss | 8.927% |
| 24 | Toxtricity | 8.487% |
| 25 | Tyranitar | 8.465% |
| 26 | Mimikyu | 8.034% |
| 27 | Obstagoon | 7.973% |
| 28 | Gengar | 7.405% |
| 29 | Rotom-Wash | 6.457% |
| 30 | Ditto | 6.223% |
| 31 | Crawdaunt | 6.002% |
| 32 | Pelipper | 5.449% |
| 33 | Rotom-Mow | 5.113% |
| 34 | Gyarados | 5.028% |
| 35 | Corsola-Galar | 4.228% |
| 36 | Hippowdon | 4.013% |
| 37 | Dracozolt | 3.556% |
| 38 | Hawlucha | 3.550% |
| 39 | Gastrodon | 3.403% |
| 40 | Mamoswine | 2.870% |
| 41 | Sirfetch'd | 2.416% |
| 42 | Rhyperior | 2.239% |
| 43 | Snorlax | 2.222% |
| 44 | Lucario | 2.093% |
| 45 | Chandelure | 1.969% |
| 46 | Shuckle | 1.897% |
| 47 | Jellicent | 1.892% |
| 48 | Barraskewda | 1.891% |
| 49 | Centiskorch | 1.862% |
| 50 | Reuniclus | 1.850% |
| 51 | Diggersby | 1.820% |
| 52 | Vaporeon | 1.761% |
| 53 | Mantine | 1.742% |
| 54 | Weezing-Galar | 1.686% |
| 55 | Ribombee | 1.637% |
| 56 | Heliolisk | 1.397% |
| 57 | Haxorus | 1.267% |
| 58 | Sigilyph | 1.225% |
| 59 | Quagsire | 1.218% |
| 60 | Polteageist | 1.143% |
| 61 | Indeedee | 1.106% |
| 62 | Vikavolt | 1.028% |
| 63 | Torkoal | 1.018% |
| 64 | Gardevoir | 1.012% |
| 65 | Xatu | 0.915% |
| 66 | Salazzle | 0.909% |
| 67 | Araquanid | 0.879% |
| 68 | Arctozolt | 0.841% |
| 69 | Milotic | 0.828% |
| 70 | Weavile | 0.825% |
| 71 | Galvantula | 0.755% |
| 72 | Arcanine | 0.680% |
| 73 | Golisopod | 0.679% |
| 74 | Copperajah | 0.663% |
| 75 | Durant | 0.648% |
| 76 | Vanilluxe | 0.643% |
| 77 | Frosmoth | 0.643% |
| 78 | Shiftry | 0.630% |
| 79 | Goodra | 0.626% |
| 80 | Gigalith | 0.618% |
| 81 | Morpeko | 0.606% |
| 82 | Charizard | 0.605% |
| 83 | Runerigus | 0.603% |
| 84 | Lapras | 0.579% |
| 85 | Ludicolo | 0.533% |
| 86 | Orbeetle | 0.530% |
| 87 | Appletun | 0.527% |
| 88 | Whimsicott | 0.521% |
| 89 | Cinccino | 0.472% |
| 90 | Pyukumuku | 0.470% |
| 91 | Roserade | 0.442% |
| 92 | Cramorant | 0.440% |
| 93 | Coalossal | 0.440% |
| 94 | Drednaw | 0.439% |
| 95 | Toxicroak | 0.417% |
| 96 | Sandaconda | 0.413% |
| 97 | Machamp | 0.402% |
| 98 | Steelix | 0.399% |
| 99 | Duraludon | 0.385% |
| 100 | Flygon | 0.368% |
| 101 | Flareon | 0.361% |
| 102 | Eldegoss | 0.345% |
| 103 | Bewear | 0.342% |
| 104 | Espeon | 0.342% |
| 105 | Noivern | 0.322% |
| 106 | Umbreon | 0.315% |
| 107 | Rillaboom | 0.311% |
| 108 | Braviary | 0.305% |
| 109 | Inteleon | 0.294% |
| 110 | Avalugg | 0.282% |
| 111 | Ninetales | 0.268% |
| 112 | Bronzong | 0.268% |
| 113 | Tsareena | 0.235% |
| 114 | Drapion | 0.232% |
| 115 | Shedinja | 0.232% |
| 116 | Pincurchin | 0.222% |
| 117 | Eiscue | 0.211% |
| 118 | Gallade | 0.190% |
| 119 | Cursola | 0.187% |
| 120 | Claydol | 0.185% |
| 121 | Froslass | 0.173% |
| 122 | Jolteon | 0.173% |
| 123 | Accelgor | 0.163% |
| 124 | Barbaracle | 0.161% |
| 125 | Pangoro | 0.160% |
| 126 | Rapidash-Galar | 0.146% |
| 127 | Butterfree | 0.142% |
| 128 | Hitmontop | 0.142% |
| 129 | Mr. Rime | 0.140% |
| 130 | Alcremie | 0.138% |
| 131 | Rotom-Fan | 0.138% |
| 132 | Dhelmise | 0.136% |
| 133 | Flapple | 0.135% |
| 134 | Rotom | 0.131% |
| 135 | Passimian | 0.131% |
| 136 | Boltund | 0.129% |
| 137 | Indeedee-F | 0.123% |
| 138 | Diglett | 0.118% |
| 139 | Slurpuff | 0.106% |
| 140 | Golurk | 0.101% |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ------- +
Rises
Over the last month, Clefable usage has only kept going up and it has finally hit #3. It's the most used SS OU mon in SPL and for good reason. It's a a reliable Dragapult switch-in that can absorb status absorber and keep teammates healthy with Wish. SPL has shown some interesting options in Clefable's 4th slot (the first 3 being Moonblast, Wish and Protect), such as Trick, Aromatherapy, and Thunder Wave. Calm Mind with Life Orb started getting some more usage and can be a menace for most teams to switch into.
Dugtrio is back to trapping threats like it has in the past, and Choice Band sets are the most common ones at this point in time. Choice Band Dugtrio can remove specially defensive mons like Clefable and Sylveon, offensive mons like Excadrill, and then Toxapex as well. With Darmanitan leaving the tier, Dugtrio was able to run Choice Band again, and this has allowed it to become consistent at trapping the above targets.
Kommo-o usage has spiked up a lot as many teams are now relying on physically defensive Kommo-o for Stealth Rock. Unlike Seismitoad, Kommo-o comes with Bulletproof, which can grant teams a Shadow Ball immunity to help deal with Choice Specs Aegislash. Body Press hits fairly hard, and Body Press with Iron Defense allows Kommo-o to pressure Mandibuzz and Corviknight, both of which will usually want to remove Stealth Rock.
Sylveon continues to rise and is very similar to Clefable with the specially defensive set of Hyper Voice, Wish, and Protect. The 4th slot is usually Calm Mind or Mystical Fire, but there have been some other options like Quick Attack that have been used. While Sylveon has better bulk and higher damage output than Clefable, being affected by hazards and status is its largest disadvantage, and this can cause it to be worn down more quickly than Clefable. However, it is for this reason that Sylveon will usually be paired with teammates that do not mind status, such as Life Orb Clefable, Conkeldurr, Obstagoon, and Sigilyph.
Cloyster is officially OU now. Shell Smash with King's Rock is very difficult to stop thanks to most teams forgoing a Choice Scarf user, preventing them from outspeeding and revenge killing it. Then there's also the fact that most slower switch-ins, like Toxapex, are prone to getting flinched, resulting in them being unable to touch Cloyster back.
Obstagoon barely missed out on being OU last month, but it is finally OU. Obstagoon is a strong physical wall breaker that typically uses Facade, Knock Off and Close Combat. Not only do these moves have great coverage, but Obstagoon's great speed tier of 95 allows it to pressure and and force out common offensive mons like Rotom and Excadrill.
Gengar is back in OU and has a few different sets, including Choice Scarf/Specs with Trick, Nasty Plot, and then Substitute with Wisp and Hex. Gengar sits at a phenomenal speed tier of 110, only being outsped by Cinderace, Dugtrio and Dragapult. It can switch into Clefable and Sylveon and then force them out, or set up a Sub/Nasty Plot if the opponent attempts to scout with Protect.
Drops
Ditto has continued to fall since dynamaxed was banned from OU. More teams are becoming bulky and Ditto's ability to abuse offensive mons is less desired than in the past.
Corsala-Galar has dropped out of OU and it was primarily because of how passive Corsala was in conjunction with how it could allow several big threats to freely switch in.
Dracozolt saw a small dip in usage that has caused it to fall out of OU. This may have been due to Dugtrio's increased usage, or perhaps people stopped using it after losing games to Hustle's lower accuracy.
I'll leave the same questions below as I did last time:
1. How do you guys feel about the usage stats?
2. Outside of the ones I discussed above, are there any rises/drops that you expected or think are noteworthy?
3. Do you have an idea as to why other mons are higher in usage and why others have decreased or increased usage?
4. Which mons do you think will continue rising and which mons will continue dropping?
Honestly these usage stats aren't very surprising. Corsola and Dracozolt dropping was only a matter of time, although I'm admittedly surprised that it happened as soon as it did. I'm hoping Mimikyu usage tanks next, since I genuinely think it's quite bad with all the ghost spam running around. Cinderace entering the top 10 is another genuine surprise, especially since we're in the middle (or likely towards the end) of a Duggy meta where, by all accounts, Cinderace shouldn't be getting used as much as it has. The rises of the UUBL mons as well as Cloyster and Rotom-C are well deserved imo. Rotom-C in particular is one to watch for, since it's always played second fiddle to Wash/Heat but now he gets his time to shine. Perhaps it can garner more usage than Rotom-W, whom I feel isn't particularly great rn.
I'm interested to see how the cat and mouse game of Dracovish and the water immunities also affects usage throughout ladder, and whether or not we'll eventually see this as having an impact on lower tiers. With talks of Water Absorb Curse Quagsire coming up as a way to check many of the Physical around, as well as Dracovish, all while providing a decent win con, I think this could be a potential rise in the future if it pans out.
One last thing, I'm super interested to see what counterplay develops for Ghost spam. If Duggy usage drops or Arena Trap gets banned, I fully expect Tyranitar usage to shoot up as a way to respond. Perhaps Weavile may also see some OU use again, since it's able to outspeed all ghosts bar Dragapult, whom it threatens with Ice Shard anyway, and nail them with a decently strong Throat Chop. Perhaps Band or SD sets are the wave.
Just a couple observations from the outside looking in :)
I'm interested to see how the cat and mouse game of Dracovish and the water immunities also affects usage throughout ladder, and whether or not we'll eventually see this as having an impact on lower tiers. With talks of Water Absorb Curse Quagsire coming up as a way to check many of the Physical around, as well as Dracovish, all while providing a decent win con, I think this could be a potential rise in the future if it pans out.
One last thing, I'm super interested to see what counterplay develops for Ghost spam. If Duggy usage drops or Arena Trap gets banned, I fully expect Tyranitar usage to shoot up as a way to respond. Perhaps Weavile may also see some OU use again, since it's able to outspeed all ghosts bar Dragapult, whom it threatens with Ice Shard anyway, and nail them with a decently strong Throat Chop. Perhaps Band or SD sets are the wave.
Just a couple observations from the outside looking in :)
Deleted User 229847
Banned deucer.
Yea Cinderace is pretty bad and i would not run it in any of my teams. I expect a steady rise from togekiss since it's a scary mon with two viable sets, trick and subplot (which I find obnoxious to the point of asking for a ban but that's another stoy...).
Edit: I also really, really want to find the developer who gave steel beam to aegislash. It will be a swift permanent solution I promise.
Edit: I also really, really want to find the developer who gave steel beam to aegislash. It will be a swift permanent solution I promise.
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The biggest take away from these usage stats (and from tournament showings & teams that are presented in sample team & bazaar thread) is that less mons are OU. This is due to overcentralization that isn't even healthy. Ghost types are running amok and destroying defensive cores with pure ease.
Seismitoad isn't a good mon, we've seen this in top/mid/low ladder + Tour replays.
Tyranitar's usage should be higher since it is far better than Seismitoad and can actually answer the Ghost Spam somewhat. But still, Aegislash is a problem. The only reason it isn't higher than Toad is because of Dracovish & Dugtrio.
It's hard to say that Dragapult, Hydreigon, and Aegislash should be suspect tested because of how they don't compare to Dugtrio and Dracovish as threats. We see a lot of the same teams and these teams are either going to do good in some games or badly in other games because, this game has turned into rock-paper-scissors.
A lot of users are frustrated with the council because they have to deal with these threats + flinch hax everyday if they ever want to play the game. It gets frustrating knowing that the strategy game you want to play is actually a luck-based game with rock-paper-scissors elements added into the mix.
Banded Dracovish with Webs or Rain/Tailwind beats Ghost Spam. Scarf Dracovish with Clefable + Tyrantiar also beats Ghost Spam. Seismitoad + Sylveon beats these dedicated Dracovish teams but lose to Ghost Spam. Then you have Hydreigon + Dracovish that can be use together to make matters worse. Not only that but, you even have Dugtrio that disrupts these cores' flows. And to top it all off, you have Shell Smash Cloyster with King's Rock that can allow you the win or loss against any of these teams. All of this turning into 50/50s that no one can handle or build around.
This metagame has turned into a problem.
This all explains certain rises & drops.
Corviknight being high usage is due to it being a decent check to Dragapult while also being a good defogger. Kommo-O and Obstagoon fit in with the rock-paper-scissor teams. So does Cinderace (surprise-surprise) which is why it has high usage. Cinderace's Court Change can be good on Cloyster teams and can annoy Screen Teams. It's also unpredictable thanks to the items Choice Scarf and Band. Heavy-Duty Boots + U-Turn also comes in clutch with Wall Breakers, since Cinderace does bring in a lot of walls that would allow set-up like, Seismitoad for Nasty Plot Hydreigon or Toxapex for Guts Conkeldurr. Cinderace also works great with Dugtrio (whether it be to keep the Sash intact with Court Change or U-Turn support for Banded sets). Corsola-G is bad and has been bad because too many Ghosts & Dark types.
I've been having some success with Mean Look Mandibuzz, although my team still needs a lot of optimization.
Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Mean Look
- Taunt
- Snarl
The only reason this works is because people don't expect it. Dugtrio is a much better trapper but people will play around it. This set let's you trap Seismitoad, Toxapex, and all the other Water Absorb, Defensive Clefable and Sylveon as well as Ferrothorn. You also get to trap Screens Grimmsnarl because Prankster Taunt doesn't work on Dark types. I've trapped a scarfed Hydreigon too, but Nasty Plot will beat it.
The best partners I've found have been Kommo-O, Cinderace and Dracovish, although with Dracovish I was finding people weren't letting me trap Seismitoad if it was hard switched, probably fearing Knock Off or Toxic. When I caught it on a double they usually did let me trap it.
Rest/Mean Look/Taunt are all required but there are options for the last slot. Snarl is only needed for the fairies, so if you don't care about them Iron Defense would let you trap Corviknight without U-Turn and Defensive Kommo-O. Another good option would be to lean away from being a dedicated trapper and use the last slot for a more generally useful move, like Defog, Knock Off, Toxic or U-Turn.
Edit: I just realized that Sub Belly Drum Kommo-O would be much better than the Dragon Dance set I've been using so I'll be trying that out next.
Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Mean Look
- Taunt
- Snarl
The only reason this works is because people don't expect it. Dugtrio is a much better trapper but people will play around it. This set let's you trap Seismitoad, Toxapex, and all the other Water Absorb, Defensive Clefable and Sylveon as well as Ferrothorn. You also get to trap Screens Grimmsnarl because Prankster Taunt doesn't work on Dark types. I've trapped a scarfed Hydreigon too, but Nasty Plot will beat it.
The best partners I've found have been Kommo-O, Cinderace and Dracovish, although with Dracovish I was finding people weren't letting me trap Seismitoad if it was hard switched, probably fearing Knock Off or Toxic. When I caught it on a double they usually did let me trap it.
Rest/Mean Look/Taunt are all required but there are options for the last slot. Snarl is only needed for the fairies, so if you don't care about them Iron Defense would let you trap Corviknight without U-Turn and Defensive Kommo-O. Another good option would be to lean away from being a dedicated trapper and use the last slot for a more generally useful move, like Defog, Knock Off, Toxic or U-Turn.
Edit: I just realized that Sub Belly Drum Kommo-O would be much better than the Dragon Dance set I've been using so I'll be trying that out next.
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I'd suggest running Toxic in conjunction w/ Mean Look. You don't really want to be trapping stuff like Corv anyways so Toxic can work over here.
Gengar does wall you but I mean, it doesn't want to switch into a Mandibuzz so that generally shouldn't too big of a deal.
Also roost>>>>>>>>>>>rest
\
It might still be better though? I havent kept up to date with long term 1v1 calcs because stall isnt that good rn, and I don't prefer to play that style myself and Im not sure if toxic can still kill certain things faster than they can kill mandi.
Honestly tho not sure how viable mandi is as a trapper with this set, dugtrio can be a revenge killer, stealth rocker, or use its high speed to get some extra damage off before sacking itself (after its got its kill or kills) at least. With this set mandi is literally useless unless its trapping and 1v1ing a pokemon.
I think he can't fit toxic unless he cuts snarl, in which case he would have no attacking moves whatsoever. If he cuts taunt then he actually will lose the 1v1 to a lot of the pokemon he wants to trap. And he cant cut the healing move for the same reason.
It might still be better though? I havent kept up to date with long term 1v1 calcs because stall isnt that good rn, and I don't prefer to play that style myself and Im not sure if toxic can still kill certain things faster than they can kill mandi.
Honestly tho not sure how viable mandi is as a trapper with this set, dugtrio can be a revenge killer, stealth rocker, or use its high speed to get some extra damage off before sacking itself (after its got its kill or kills) at least. With this set mandi is literally useless unless its trapping and 1v1ing a pokemon.
Hydreigon @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 56 SpA / 200 SpDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Belch
This is mostly for fun so don't take it too seriously, but it works well as a lure haha. Since Sylveon or Clef are on nearly every bulky offense/balance build you can take advantage of this predictability. Plot up when they go Sylveon or Clef. Plot again when they hyper voice or moonblast and survive with the Roseli Berry. Now you can OHKO even 252/252+ Sylveon as a +4 belch does 100% minimum. Hydreigon can pick up more KOs if their team is slower, or you can save hydreigon do to more damage later (you can still use belch), wish up, or be death fodder. Specs dragapult cleans up with the fairies out of the way especially. Edit: better to run 56 SpA / 200 SpDef / 252 Spe as even with roseli berry hydreigon still takes a ton from hyper voice.
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Roost would make it much harder to trap Toxapex and SeismiToad. If I brought it in and they use Toxic I'd lose 1v1. Even if I doubled into it I'd have to use Taunt before Mean Look to prevent the Toxic, which gives them another chance to switch out. It's also often better not to. If you run Toxic instead of Snarl you'll lose to one crit from Clefable and Sylveon.
Just in case it wasn't obvious the way you're trapping these mons is by PP stalling them similar to what Gothitelle would do. Snarl is there strictly for lowering SpA.
I actually don't think this set would be very good on stall. The way I've been using it is to remove 1 counter to a mon that opens up a path to sweep. It's usually not too hard to position yourself for Dracovish to win once Seismitoad is gone. You also don't even need to 1v1 something. It's often better to just stall out all attacks then switch out for a free turn, such as a Belly Dance Kommo-O coming in on a taunted Clefable with 0 Moonblasts and the then being able to Substitute as they switch out, then a Belly Drum and win the game from there.
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Yeah I see that, I'm not saying its a stall set, I'm just saying that I actually havent done the calcs for situations like this b/c im nto facing stall.
Which scarf user outspeeds and beats Cloyster? Scarf Gengar, Dugtrio, and Dragapult outspeed +2 Cloyster, but are OHKO'd by Ice Shard. That leaves Scarf Cinderace and Mew as the only ou mons that can check +2 Cloyster. King's Rock gives Cloyster a 41% chance to beat it's defensive checks and there's nothing you can do to stop it. This is on top of the fact that very few mons check +2 Cloyster as it is and the ones that do, lose after being flinched. King's Rock and items like it (Focus Band, Quick Claw, etc.) don't belong in a competitive environment. I think Cloyster as a sweeper is unique and not broken, but the interaction with Skill Link and King's Rock makes games with Cloyster come down to RNG instead of keeping the fate of the game in the player's hands.#38 (3.613)> #21 (10.088%)
Cloyster is officially OU now. Shell Smash with King's Rock is very difficult to stop thanks to most teams forgoing a Choice Scarf user, preventing them from outspeeding and revenge killing it. Then there's also the fact that most slower switch-ins, like Toxapex, are prone to getting flinched, resulting in them being unable to touch Cloyster back.
Scarf Hydreigon survives a +2 Ice Shard from full
Also plz calc before you post
+2 252 Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 160-189 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Scarf Dugtrio also doesn't exist, sash and band are more common.
Scarf Hydreigon doesn’t even outspeed Adamant Cloyster at +2 anyways. For the relevant calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 294-348 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 175-207 (66.7 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
So Dragapult (and Duggy) both die, and Gengar lives but not by much (after Rocks and some chip, it’ll go down).
Okay, first of all, Dragapult will be switching into a Cloyster. Next, Sash Duggy also exists, and 200 BP SE Reversal hits a -1 Cloyster pretty damn hard.
Next, please bother to calculate speed tiers before posting, Scarf Hydreigon does very much outspeed Adamant Cloyster.
Scarf Hydreigon hits 486 and +2 Addy Cloyster only hits 478.
I've been having success with Phys Def Umbreon, Foul Play kills it after a Shell Smash. It's pretty team specific but if you're running scarf Dragapult it's hard to build a team not weak to Cloyster. it's also a strong check to Aegislash which the Clef/Toad core is weak to and supports the team with wish and yawn.
Ah yes, the noted bane of Skill Link users: Focus Sash.
Sash Dug gets outsped and one-shot, Scarf Dug gets out-prio'd and one-shot assuming Ice Shard. Anyways, the grasping at straws here and the complete lack of defensive counterplay on this list (or lack thereof 59% of the time I guess) probably says something about the whole Skill Link-KR interaction .-.
I've seen a hilarious tech a few times from a few different players, I call it Bootleg SmashPass. To reiterate, I didn't come up with this.
Torkoal @ Eject Pack (or shuckle whatever floats your boat)
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-Lava Plume
-Shell Smash
Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Copycat
-Moonblast
-Flamethrower
-Thunderbolt
You smash with Torkoal, then get swapped out immediately. Clef comes in, Copycats to use Shell Smash. Has to be done on something slower or on a forced switch so Clef doesn't copycat the wrong move. Boosted Clef basically kills everything, only needing prior damage on like Rotom Heat. Outruns Dragapult and everything slower if Modest. Bonus points for resisting Sucker Punch and Mach Punch, but the drop in defenses makes Clef pretty frail otherwise. Fun set to screw around with.
Torkoal @ Eject Pack (or shuckle whatever floats your boat)
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-Lava Plume
-Shell Smash
Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
-Copycat
-Moonblast
-Flamethrower
-Thunderbolt
You smash with Torkoal, then get swapped out immediately. Clef comes in, Copycats to use Shell Smash. Has to be done on something slower or on a forced switch so Clef doesn't copycat the wrong move. Boosted Clef basically kills everything, only needing prior damage on like Rotom Heat. Outruns Dragapult and everything slower if Modest. Bonus points for resisting Sucker Punch and Mach Punch, but the drop in defenses makes Clef pretty frail otherwise. Fun set to screw around with.
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