A lot of shadowball users wont predictively use their more narrow moves on the switch in at least. They are much more likely to use their neutral coverage moves like shadowball unless they have both scouted the fact your kommo-0 has bulletproof and they predict it to be in for the hit. So yeah, its just one move, but its one thats seen quite a bit, and will be thrown out quite a bit. That said, I can't underrate immunity to Sylveon's fairy stab. That is huge.
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Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Usage Stats in post #581]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
I feel like Toxtricity is something that is definetely underexplored and underutilized right now, given how it can absolutely shred several defensive cores. The problem is for one of course Dugtrio and that (even without Duggy) the most commonly used sets (Specs and Shift Gear) are not really good at the moment.
Ghosts are very common right now and ground types always will be, which makes it really prediction-reliant to use Specs and lock into one Toxtricity's strongest moves. On top of that, mons like Clefable, Sylveon and Toxapex always (or sometimes in Pex' case) run Protect/Bunker, which usually makes Specs Toxtricity unable to pressure said mons, because they just scout and then switch into the resist/immunity to the move you lock into.
The Shift Gear Throat Spray set has the problem that its basically just a one-time use setup sweeper, when imo Toxtricity is far better off as a early/mid-game breaker.
This is why I felt that the ability to switch up moves on Toxtricity is extremely valuable and used the following set while laddering up a new alt:
Toxtricity-Low-Key @ Shed Shell
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Sludge Wave
I went 35-4 so far, also because Toxtricity put in a ton of work against a lot of the common defensive cores and especially the omnipresent Corviknight.
Having to run Shed Shell because of Duggy sucks, but it also means that teams which rely on the moles as their main countermeasure will be in a ton of trouble against this set. (replay to showcase it: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047656802)
So in case Dugtrio gets banned again, I would be in favour of just using a non-choiced boosting item like Wise Glasses or Magnet but something like Sub + 3 Attacks with Black Sludge to ease prediction might also work out.
What do you guys think about Toxtricity and its potential sets, would be cool to see some discussion on this :]
Ghosts are very common right now and ground types always will be, which makes it really prediction-reliant to use Specs and lock into one Toxtricity's strongest moves. On top of that, mons like Clefable, Sylveon and Toxapex always (or sometimes in Pex' case) run Protect/Bunker, which usually makes Specs Toxtricity unable to pressure said mons, because they just scout and then switch into the resist/immunity to the move you lock into.
The Shift Gear Throat Spray set has the problem that its basically just a one-time use setup sweeper, when imo Toxtricity is far better off as a early/mid-game breaker.
This is why I felt that the ability to switch up moves on Toxtricity is extremely valuable and used the following set while laddering up a new alt:
Toxtricity-Low-Key @ Shed Shell
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Sludge Wave
I went 35-4 so far, also because Toxtricity put in a ton of work against a lot of the common defensive cores and especially the omnipresent Corviknight.
Having to run Shed Shell because of Duggy sucks, but it also means that teams which rely on the moles as their main countermeasure will be in a ton of trouble against this set. (replay to showcase it: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047656802)
So in case Dugtrio gets banned again, I would be in favour of just using a non-choiced boosting item like Wise Glasses or Magnet but something like Sub + 3 Attacks with Black Sludge to ease prediction might also work out.
What do you guys think about Toxtricity and its potential sets, would be cool to see some discussion on this :]
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Tox (toxtricity not pex of course) has so much potential, as the cookie cutter bulky builds that are everywhere like Clef / Corv / Rotom / Toad fold to it... that is IF you aren't choice locked. Not using choice is such an important point you brought up and it's clear in the replay. Protect and bunker are common on clef, sylveon, toad, pex, etc and make choiced Tox largely useless as its best two moves (actually all of its moves) have immunities on nearly every team. These teams rely solely on protect cheese and Duggy to beat Tox. They are common enough to where running shed shell seems like the best option by far.I feel like Toxtricity is something that is definetely underexplored and underutilized right now, given how it can absolutely shred several defensive cores. The problem is for one of course Dugtrio and that (even without Duggy) the most commonly used sets (Specs and Shift Gear) are not really good at the moment.
Ghosts are very common right now and ground types always will be, which makes it really prediction-reliant to use Specs and lock into one Toxtricity's strongest moves. On top of that, mons like Clefable, Sylveon and Toxapex always (or sometimes in Pex' case) run Protect/Bunker, which usually makes Specs Toxtricity unable to pressure said mons, because they just scout and then switch into the resist/immunity to the move you lock into.
The Shift Gear Throat Spray set has the problem that its basically just a one-time use setup sweeper, when imo Toxtricity is far better off as a early/mid-game breaker.
This is why I felt that the ability to switch up moves on Toxtricity is extremely valuable and used the following set while laddering up a new alt:
Toxtricity-Low-Key @ Shed Shell
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overdrive
- Volt Switch
- Boomburst
- Sludge Wave
I went 35-4 so far, also because Toxtricity put in a ton of work against a lot of the common defensive cores and especially the omnipresent Corviknight.
Having to run Shed Shell because of Duggy sucks, but it also means that teams which rely on the moles as their main countermeasure will be in a ton of trouble against this set. (replay to showcase it: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1047656802)
So in case Dugtrio gets banned again, I would be in favour of just using a non-choiced boosting item like Wise Glasses or Magnet but something like Sub + 3 Attacks with Black Sludge to ease prediction might also work out.
What do you guys think about Toxtricity and its potential sets, would be cool to see some discussion on this :]
I never considered shed shell before, but I've used air balloon shift gear and it's pretty good because it hedges against Tox's bad matchup against faster teams, while Tox is just naturally great against anything slower. You get a safe switch into Hippowdon and setup opportunities against Conk, Toad, and Excadrill while avoiding Duggy so long as the balloon is intact. Air balloon is more suited towards using Tox on HO teams for the setup and ground immunity. Shed shell looks way better though for use on bulky offense so since you can be more aggressive with bringing Tox in on things like pex, clef, and corviknight.
The set I used is below. It's straightforward. You outspeed scarf hydreigon at +2. Sludge wave is needed for Clef and Sylveon and is the best option for the last spot. Fire punch is worth mentioning as a valid option since it can break through ferrothorn and helps against excadrill. It does over 50% min at +1 to the most phys def ferrothorn spreads. If Excadrill has taken a boomburst earlier, it will go down to a +1 fire punch. Rash nature is best if using fire punch.
Toxtricity @ Air Balloon
Ability: Punk Rock
EVs: 24 Hp / 252 SpA / 232 Spe
Modest / Rash Nature
- Shift Gear
- Overdrive
- Boomburst
- Sludge Wave / Fire Punch
I keep seeing Xatu mentioned, but what set are people using? Teleport / Psychic / Heat Wave / Roost with a phys def spread?
More importantly is it running any speed EVs or just 0. Or even Relaxed with 0 iv to negate Gyro Ball damage?
Is there any notable team or logs people have of Xatu doing work?
More importantly is it running any speed EVs or just 0. Or even Relaxed with 0 iv to negate Gyro Ball damage?
Is there any notable team or logs people have of Xatu doing work?
Can we talk about deacovish again? I don’t feel like this mon is particularly threatening with nearly every team running a water immunity BUT THAT IS THE PROBLEM. I find myself having to run a water immunity like toad on every team. This is ridiculous. I would rather run any number of mons on any given team but I have to run a water immunity instead because if I don’t dracovish will go ham. I’m tired of having to account for it with a hard counter on every. Single. Team. It’s soooo over-centralizing. With such a limited pool of mons with dexit, this mon just limits that pool even further. Without Dracovish, more mons would be viable. And for that reason alone this mon deserves the ban hammer. Free the meta from this nonsense. Please.
I personally beg to disagree, Dracovish is a powerful wallbreaker but one that has quite a lot of counterplay which you are not acknowledging, many more exploitable weaknesses and counters than just a water absorber and a large amount of high tier, common, checks.
The first thing we need to note this generation is that rain has not been that powerful, therefore at higher levels of play (which is where games should be balanced in my opinion) more often than not, Dracovish is doing about 40-50% to Toxapex with fishious rend while choice banded, which is still a lot except Toxapex recovers with regenerator when it swaps out, and it has recover, and has baneful bunker to poison Dracovish, there are other answers to Dracovish asides water absorbers at the higher levels of play and while they may not be as good as an immunity, they can do the job well, therefore you do not need to run a water immunity to have a defensive check to Dracovish but it is nice to have one.
The next point I would like to address is water absorbers, specifically Seismitoad, a common misconception is that Seismitoad is only good because it is a defensive answer to Dracovish, but that is far from the truth. The reasons Seismitoad is good this gen are mainly 1) it has access to stealth rock and the now uncommon toxic, 2) it has an electric immunity and fire resistance, both of which are key to dealing with Rotom-H, an incredibly popular and powerful Pokemon in this metagame, and by forcing out Rotom-H with its water stabs—which the flying oven definitely does not want to take without compensation—it can reliably set up stealth rock which can be key for getting the chip damage required to muscle through some very bulky teams which are quite common in the Sword and Shield OU metagame as of now. Therefore, even though having water absorb is nice for Seismitoad, Dracovish is not the sole reason it has had high pick rates in the metagame as of late, therefore I do not believe your implied assumption of Seismitoad being only good because of Dracovish is correct due to the numerous other roles it fills within the metagame being more vital.
Lastly, I would like to discuss the multiple options for counterplay to Dracovish and it's many checks by high tier pokemon, such as the everpresent Dragapult, to illustrate that even without a water absorber, there is still counterplay to Dracovish. The first method of counterplay against Dracovish is to not let it have an opportunity to get in a position to do damage. Fairy and dragon type attacks are incredibly common and as such, it is often difficult for Dracovish to find an opportunity to enter safely without taking massive amounts of damage without sacrificing a Pokemon to enter, a reliable form of entry sure but not a very good one, on predicted swaps or resisted moves Dracovish can come in but then that is them outplaying you and as such, if that leads to you losing the match then that was because you were outplayed by your opponent and not because it is overpowered. The next point of counterplay I would like to address is the fact that, because it is so slow, it can easily be outsped by very common Pokemon such as Dragapult of Hydregion and forced into a team member who can tank the incoming attack, a swap which is incredibly predictable and easy to capitalize on from the end of the Dragapult/Hydregion user, and if Dracovish tries to alleviate this issue through the use of choice scarf then it still gets outsped by Dragapult and loses out on the key damage thresholds that make it so powerful, rendering it suboptimal compared to other picks for wall breakers. And the final method of counterplay I will mention is to either burn or paralyze Dracovish, the former from will-o-wisp or scald burns (possibly from Seismitoad) and the latter from the incredibly common usage of thunder wave. When Dracovish is afflicted with either of these two status ailments, it loses a large amount of it's ability to wall break and destroy teams because it is either too slow to outspeed its targets (such as Clefable) and get's OHKO'd by moonblast, or the attack drop reduces it's damage to the point where it hits about as hard as a pool noodle. Either way, Dracovish does not want to get statused. Overall there are more methods of counterplay to Dracovish than just a water absorber such as Seismitoad who, granted, gives an incredibly powerful form of countering Dracovish but is viable because of other reasons and even then, Dracovish can still beat Seismitoad with proper predictions. If your opponent chips down Seismitoad and predicts your swap in, choosing instead to use choice band boosted psychic fangs to do 40% to Seiesmitoad and KO'ing it, then that was them outplaying you and they deserve that kill. If your only option is to use a water absorber to beat Dracovish and swap it in every time it comes out then you are giving them the opportunity to destroy your best answer easily, but because the multiple ways of countering Dracovish, through the use of status ailments, fast revenge killers or just not giving it the opportunity to swap into one of your pokemon it wants to take out, and because these answers are quite common in the metagame regardless of Dracovish usage (If you want proof, look at SPL logs) I do not believe Dracovish is very centralizing (Unlike Corviknight) and, due to the myriad of ways to defeat it with better play, do not consider your argument as to it's potential ban as valid and would strongly oppose its removal from OU.
Another possible solution to alleviate Vish challenges is to include a scarfer with a higher base speed starting at 80. To capitialize on water/dragon typing, let’s start with some weaker options then gradually move up to more effective/practical stuff.
Scarfers with neutral attacks:
•You got Rotom-W at 86 speed with neutral bolt damage and deece resist to rend that now loses boost from Wash out-speeding
•Heliolisk is even faster at 109 but not as bulky for again neutral bolt damage, maybe hyper voice for sub (but realistically sub Vish is an urban legend lol)
Super effective scarfer attacks:
•Espeon is a cool niche scarfer with 110 speed and 130 Sp.A who learns dazzling gleam.
•Gardevior is slower at 80 and weaker by a hair at 125 Sp.A but gets fairy stab so really does more damage
•Togekiss is another 80 speed fairy who can utilize air slash for flinches once Vish is gone (or even on Vish if you feel lucky)
Other options you might consider are LO Mimikyu with swords dance/play rough/shadow sneak/ shadow claw. Can take a hit and retaliate quite effectively. There’s Sash Ribombee with webs/stunspore/moonblast/U-turn. Or you might consider Max Atk/Max HP Conk and use priority in mach punch to nullify Rend’s boost to tank hits.
Dragons like Pult outspeed it easily. Or a set up Dragon like clanging Timid Kommo-o outspeeds Vish and can sweep the rest of the team if played right. Same goes for DD Haxorus.
So you got plenty of other avenues to pursue if you want to interact and beat Vish without carrying a water absorber and honestly some of these options are solid and can kick it on your team even when Vish is a no show on the other team. Hope this helps give some brewing ideas on how to handle Dracovish.
Scarfers with neutral attacks:
•You got Rotom-W at 86 speed with neutral bolt damage and deece resist to rend that now loses boost from Wash out-speeding
•Heliolisk is even faster at 109 but not as bulky for again neutral bolt damage, maybe hyper voice for sub (but realistically sub Vish is an urban legend lol)
Super effective scarfer attacks:
•Espeon is a cool niche scarfer with 110 speed and 130 Sp.A who learns dazzling gleam.
•Gardevior is slower at 80 and weaker by a hair at 125 Sp.A but gets fairy stab so really does more damage
•Togekiss is another 80 speed fairy who can utilize air slash for flinches once Vish is gone (or even on Vish if you feel lucky)
Other options you might consider are LO Mimikyu with swords dance/play rough/shadow sneak/ shadow claw. Can take a hit and retaliate quite effectively. There’s Sash Ribombee with webs/stunspore/moonblast/U-turn. Or you might consider Max Atk/Max HP Conk and use priority in mach punch to nullify Rend’s boost to tank hits.
Dragons like Pult outspeed it easily. Or a set up Dragon like clanging Timid Kommo-o outspeeds Vish and can sweep the rest of the team if played right. Same goes for DD Haxorus.
So you got plenty of other avenues to pursue if you want to interact and beat Vish without carrying a water absorber and honestly some of these options are solid and can kick it on your team even when Vish is a no show on the other team. Hope this helps give some brewing ideas on how to handle Dracovish.
while i don't think you're strictly wrong (it is pretty centralizing), dracovish is generally not as effective as it is on paper, and you don't really need further proof than to look at the last 2 SPL weeks so far & the SWSH kick-off invitational tour. there's various other methods of handling Dracovish without using a Pokemon with a Water Immunity; offensive pressure, PhysDef Pex + Duggy, PhysDef Kommo, etc, all of which have been successful at both dealing with it and dissuading its use.
of course, these aren't incredibly consistent and Dracovish can still pick up a couple KOs, but I wouldn't really say it's anywhere near broken. it's overpowered, sure, in the literal sense of the word anyway, but it's not near the level of say, Darmanitan.
there's also the fact that Water immunities this gen just happen to be really, really good Pokemon on their own. Seismitoad enjoyed SUPER high amounts of usage even before Dracovish was fixed to current levels on Showdown, Gastrodon is good because it also pivots into a lot of other Pokemon, like Dragapult, Clefable, and Hatterene, while Vaporeon and Jellicent enjoy other niches(and aren't the best Dracovish switchins anyway).
point is, it's overbearing, it's very strong; it's not broken. I wouldn't exactly oppose a ban of it, like i wouldn't exactly oppose a Volcarona ban in SM, I'd nonetheless absolutely not call for it to happen. it's a case of 'this exists, it's irritating to deal with, but it's not ban-worthy', imo at least.
All of your solutions involve revenge killing which isn't ideal, as Vish simply switches out when you bring in above pokemon.
Espeon Gardevoir Togekiss and Rotom-W simply cannot switch into a Banded Rend.
Even Heliolisk can't reliably due to possibility of clicking something besides Rend.
While Pult survives a Scarf Rend it does not survive a band one, so you simply can't risk switching in.
If revenge killing is the only solid solution to Vish besides water immunities I'd call that unhealthy.
You said a lot, but your basic arguments are we should use pex, seismitoad is good without vish in the tier, and you can always outspeed it, status it, or pressure it.
Having ferro or pex isn't enough if you don't also have an absorber, as band just eats teams like this alive. Teams with these kind of cores are also generally slow by nature, so speed isn't a big roadblock for vish. Seismitoad is set up bait for many mons and it is not difficult to wear down. It's weak and predictable. It's a decent check to part of the tier but it's a liability to the other part. And your last grouping of arguments isn't particularly convincing - every single mon you can status or pressure enough become easier to handle. Just status Zacian-C and spam fire and ground attacks so it can't come in! Brilliant. Zacian for OU. Just use pex and quag and hippo and you're golden. I don't see what the problem is.
Vish places heavy restrictions on team building. I normally don't ladder OU too much, but I've done so extensively this gen and am always in the 1800s experimenting with new tech. I've noticed that vish is one of the main reasons why so much niche stuff cannot be run. Without running at least two of the very few checks to vish, you pretty much auto lose at preview to a competent opponent. You can't just slap on an absorber on any team and be okay because you aren't putting that mon on your team to only counter one mon - it is going to get worn down during the match taking hits from stuff like cinderace, ttar, or drill here and there. I made a joke team that paired seismitoad and gastrodon lures with scarf vish and didn't lose once until I reached 1700. I couldn't believe how easy it was. Anyway, I'd support a suspect test. I'd like to get a glimpse of the tier's development without vish's restrictions.
Oh sure, I agree these solutions are not ideal. Just food for thought. The reply was to help ppl consider alternative avenues to team building with something other then water absorbers. I do not consider these strats to be the objectively best or most effective use when dealing with Vish. But if brainstorming ideas inspires others to take a more positive approach to finding a solution, then I see no harm in bouncing ideas off one another to find creative solutions. Better then saying nothing can be done or this can’t be stopped. Rather then closing out avenues to explore, we might explore them to find new solutions to old problems. I’ve learn you don’t want to negate but extrapolate or you end up on a hampster wheel of “nothing works” and then nothing changes.
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I feel like Dugtrio/Arena Trap is a bigger problem than Dracovish, personally. Dugtrio shapes the metagame just as much as Vish does, and teams need to be just as careful to not be weak to it as they do to Vish. The problem is, sticking one mon on your team doesn't fix a Dugtrio weakness. You can slap Seismitoad or Gastrodon or whatever on your team and have good counterplay against Dracovish. Unless you want to use something stupid like Eject Button Toxapex into a Scarf Dugtrio of your own, reliable counterplay to Dugtrio really doesn't exist per the nature of trapping abilities. How many times are we going to repeat this cycle of leaving AT in OU because maybe just maybe it might not be broken this time around until we accept the fact that it's a fundamentally unbalanced ability that, in its current form, has no place in OU in any generation?
No one replied so I did my own research. Seems 16 speed is enough to outrun Crawdaunt, though you only do like 20% with Heat Wave. It also beats Sirfetch'd, Arcanine, and speed creeps basically all defensive Rotom spreads. Dropping speed IVs to 0 to weaken Gyro Ball allows things like Tyranitar, lo Clefable, and defensive Rotom W to outrun you so a Relaxed spread probably isn't worth it. Ferro Gyro Ball is still doing much less than Roost + Leftovers is healing even with 31 speed IVs.
Another option is running 96 speed EVs to outrun Dracovish / Electrovish, Cloyster, and Bisharp. Then again all of these brutally destroy you anyway and Xatu's stats are kind of shit so you gotta do what you can to maximize its bulk.
So maybe this is the standard?
Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Heat Wave
- Teleport
- Roost
It's really cool to invalidate Pex / Ferro / Corsola / Body Press Corviknight / Seismitoad cores. It's so good at smashing them that imo you could run CM > Teleport, but that's really a win more strat. Other options like Twave, Reflect, Future Sight, and Grass Knot all seem viable. Even U-Turn > Teleport can be cool to maintain the switch momentum while getting chip damage on Tyranitar / Hydreigon etc. Best item is probably Lefties but a case could be made for Rocky Helmet to really mess with Ferrothorn and Conk, but I think more often than not you'd just rather the recovery.
Anyway I only played a few games and they were fairly low ladder but I was really impressed with just how consistently good Xatu was.
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While yes I do agree the solutions are not ideal, the main goal was to promote food for thought and to make people consider other alternative methods for dealing with Dracovish, with that said I would like to clarify some of my main points.
- First of all, the main point I wanted to illustrate that even though some checks and counters are not as ideal as an immunity (such as Seismitoad) because Dracovish is such an all-or-nothing Pokemon who requires it to be getting massive amounts of value to be valuable, losing momentum while trying to wear down a bulky resistance is quite bad for it as it gives the opponent time to build up advantages elsewhere it can capitalize on. Another answer to Dracovish which is quite fun is using a bulky resistance on a sun team as the reduction in damage of water type attacks combined with resistances near-completely nullify all the damage boosts Dracovish gets from both STAB, moving first and strong jaw. It is not the best answer defensively to Dracovish but it is an answer which can work and gives you time to set up enough advantages elsewhere that Dracovish KO'ing your pokemon is not enough to turn the tide.
- Secondly, the point of me discussing status ailments with respect to how harshly it affects Dracovish is because it is more heavily affected by them than other hard-hitting wall-breakers. All physical wall-breakers hate burn (outside of Pokemon with Guts) but because, the main reason Dracovish does such high damage is that it can double it's attack power if it moves first, anything which slows it down and prevents it from out-speeding the targets it would like to take out is a significant problem for Dracovish. Dracovish getting paralyzed means it loses to one of its key targets in the game, opposing bulky fairy Pokemon such as Clefable and Sylveon who otherwise OHKO it if it does not hit first. When compared to other heavy hitters such as Zacian-C, both do not like burn but when we compare the two we see a clear difference. If Zacian-C is paralyzed it still can hit incredibly hard, if Dracovish is paralyzed it loses out on the largest boost it has to its attack stat, it's the ability to double its damage if it moves first which makes Dracovish an incredibly threatening wall-breaker.
- Next, I would like to briefly discuss the argument of putting pressure on Dracovish and why it is in a unique scenario. When it faces the opposing team, there is a select group of Pokemon which it comes in on and does well against and some other Pokemon which it does well against if it is able to come in safely. Because of this, it is very easy to predict when your opponent will try to send in Dracovish either through a slow U-turn or swapping in on a turn it knows is safe, and because of this fact, it is very easy to play to either KO it outright or not give it the opportunity to threaten you. As an example, let's say I used wish last turn as Clefable, my Corviknight is weak and the opponent has their Corviknight out on the field. Because I know they have a Dracovish which they would love to have facing off against my Corviknight, and because he thinks that I am going to just heal up Corviknight brainlessly and let Dracovish enter safely, he swaps in. However, because this prediction is so obvious, I instead use moonblast to catch the incoming Dracovish. Yes my Corviknight cannot get healed this turn and my wish does not do much but because it baits in Dracovish and enables me to get a KO on it, I have one less major threat which scares my Clefable and Corviknight. As another example scenario, let's assume I have Corviknight who is at less than 50% health facing my opponent's Seismitoad and let's assume I have Dragapult in the back while they have Dracovish with a choice band in the back. Because I know my opponent thinks I will roost and will use that opportunity to send in Dracovish, I instead swap Dragapult and prevent Dracovish from having the opportunity to build up momentum. Because Dracovish only does well against a select subset of Pokemon—due to its incredibly polarized matchup spread—and because of how it needs to get in safely or else it will get OHKO'd by a Dragon move or Moonblast, it can only come in at specific points in the game (outside of revenge killing and even then, a good chunk of the time the opponent is KO'ing with a Pokemon which outspeeds Dracovish such as Dragapult or Hydregion) and by recognizing those points where Dracovish would like to come in, you can neuter most of the value it can bring to the table. Every Pokemon can be pressured enough to neuter most of its value but because of Dracovishes matchup spread, it does not take much effort at all to either kill it or force it to run back behind its trainer's defensive core, therefore I believe that, because of the nature of how it gets value is predictable enough to enable counterplay from the other players end and how strong those counterplay options are, that your argument—in my opinion—is an inadequate response to my points.
- The final point I would like to address is on Seismitoad, to put it briefly, the main reason Seismitoad is viable is because of its ability to help Corviknight and Clefable deal with the main answer the tier has for them, Rotom-H. Yes, Seismitoad is weak to other top tier Pokemon in the metagame but because of how good Corviknight and Clefable are and how important dealing with them is, primarily through Rotom-H, a pokemon who provides a role which is limited—Stealth Rocks and Toxic—along with its synergy with the main two best pokemon in the metagame is what makes it such a good pokemon. Therefore, because of its relationship with the most powerful and central Pokemon in the metagame, even if Dracovish was banned you would still need to run the main pokemon with water absorb—Seismitoad—and it will still be on many of your teams, therefore you would still be running a water absorb pokemon just because it is Seismitoad's best ability regardless of Dracovish being banned or not.
Edit: After posting this I saw Himura's post which expressed pretty much the same sentiment I was going for with my original post, sorry if it looked like I was just posting your opinion without any credit to the person who said it first, it was not intentional.
Edit 2: some parts of my third point I revised before I initally posted it but I forgot to delete the other stuff with it, I did so now to clarify my argument.
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I honestly think U-turn is better than Teleport if you want to optimize against Crawdaunt, Iron Barbs chip damage isn't that big of a concern because Ferrothorn hates Xatu and doesn't want to be caught dead near one, so you will very rarely actually U-turn on Iron Barbs.
I feel like the main reason to run 16 EVs is more to outrun Rotom, the Crawdaunt thing is a slight additional benefit. It means it can't safely switch in around 50% hp with rocks. But if you really want to beat Crawdaunt just run Giga Drain. The -6 priority of Teleport lets you switch out of Ferro etc safely without risking a prediction and getting Spiked on.
U-turn might be nice if you play Xatu aggressively and value the chip on Ttar etc but I absolutely would not run it just to ping Crawdaunt for a little more damage. Teleport is just so incredibly good. Crawdaunt only sees like 2% usage anyway so it's not exactly common.
Tl;Dr version. You have 8 EVs remaining from 4 + 4 more from 248 hp. You only need 8 additional EVs to invest to outrun Crawdaunt and assist with beating Rotom. Very low opportunity cost so imo it's worth it, but I wouldn't change the set any more to specifically try to beat Crawdaunt by running worse moves.
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No worries bruv. Just surprised that anyone gave my words that much value. Maybe I should get a job writing.
As far as magic bounce mons go I’m assuming Xatu is better then Espeon. What I am curious on is when you would take Reuniclus over Xatu. Probably for trick room teams (Which I never see outside of RU) or possibly as a bulkier calm mind psychic.
Also, I have only ever used a dual screens set for Xatu but I don’t see ppl run that version much. To me it makes sense if you want to free up slots on Grimmsnarl to run it as a bulk up rest talk set. Really, I just feel like dual screens on old Grimmy is such a waste of an awesome mon. If you didn’t want em for screens and rest talk is too inconsistent to your tastes, what would be considered a competitive Grimmsnarl built then?
Simply slapping a toad on a team does not fix the vish problem.
Toad will get worn down as the match progresses, and you need to make the right call; will vish use psychic fangs to wear you down, will it use rend to one-shot the corv that would've took the psychic fangs etc.
Vish just creates too much guess work.
The biggest problem w/ Toad is lack of recovery.
Countering Vish simply comes down to guesswork; Switch to Corv to take the psychic fang or toad to absorb rend.
Of course, most times, you would, by default go to Toad, however, it can only take 3 psychic fangs, and it certainly isn't going to be used solely to counter Vish so it's quite reasonable to assume it'll take chip as the match progresses.
I don't know why exactly you're comparing Zacian-C to Dracovish but it hates burns as much as Vish does so....
Plus the scenario you described w/ Vish is largely irrelevant for they could easily 'counter-predict' you. idt screnarios that are that prediction-reliant add much to your argument because you are not clairvoyant and neither is your opponent; they could think you were not going heal you Corv, you could miss the chance to get Vish, and besides, you're not a fortune-teller so therefore using a prediction-reliant argument to keep Vish does nothing for your argument.
Toad's stats are simply mediocre. Even w/ rocks and toxic you'd struggle to justify it simply because of lack of recovery, meh stats and even with it walling heattom, it will get chipped down in the match and an overheat does like 25 ish plus other chip (hazards etc)
ThirdStrongestMole
Banned deucer.
I've been finding this rotom-heat set to be quite effective so I thought I'd share it here.
Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Nasty Plot
- Thunder Wave/Thunderbolt
The HP + Special Attack EVs are to avoid the 4HKO from LO clef's moonblast, allowing it to counter clef effectively by coming in on it multiple times throughout the game. Nasty plot also lets it beat clefable and sylveon 1v1, and just generally can make it really threatening with a powerful Overheat nuke. It's also physically bulky enough to live powerful attacks such as banded Aegislash's close combat and conkeldurr's facade, which is why I pooled the remaining EVs into defense rather than special attack. I love running thunder wave because it can live pretty much any neutral special attack from full (even specs modest Hydreigon's draco meteor, which is the strongest neutral special hit I can think of), and can paralyze Dragapult, Hydreigon, Gengar and other strong and fast special attackers, making them much easier to deal with later on in the game (it's also good at luring them in and hitting them on the switch, the more ideal scenario). Although I don't run it, Thunderbolt can be good too to deal with Toxapex without being forced out if it comes in on the nasty plot, along with having a special stab that can be used multiple consecutive times without losing power.
Calcs:
Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Nasty Plot
- Thunder Wave/Thunderbolt
The HP + Special Attack EVs are to avoid the 4HKO from LO clef's moonblast, allowing it to counter clef effectively by coming in on it multiple times throughout the game. Nasty plot also lets it beat clefable and sylveon 1v1, and just generally can make it really threatening with a powerful Overheat nuke. It's also physically bulky enough to live powerful attacks such as banded Aegislash's close combat and conkeldurr's facade, which is why I pooled the remaining EVs into defense rather than special attack. I love running thunder wave because it can live pretty much any neutral special attack from full (even specs modest Hydreigon's draco meteor, which is the strongest neutral special hit I can think of), and can paralyze Dragapult, Hydreigon, Gengar and other strong and fast special attackers, making them much easier to deal with later on in the game (it's also good at luring them in and hitting them on the switch, the more ideal scenario). Although I don't run it, Thunderbolt can be good too to deal with Toxapex without being forced out if it comes in on the nasty plot, along with having a special stab that can be used multiple consecutive times without losing power.
Calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 65-77 (21.3 - 25.3%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Rotom-Heat: 233-275 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Rotom-Heat: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 246-291 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Rotom-Heat: 233-275 (76.6 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Obstagoon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Rotom-Heat: 258-304 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Rotom-Heat: 246-291 (80.9 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
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What do you lose to speed wise due to not giving the full allotment? Its pretty important for pivots like rotom to not be too slow.
"because Dracovish is such an all-or-nothing Pokemon who requires it to be getting massive amounts of value to be valuable"
This is so incredibly untrue. And even if it was completely polarizing as you claim, that is only another argument to support a suspect test - so much preparation has to be made for it to not steamroll your team, which is a suspect worthy trait. You act like it either sweeps or is dead weight. The mere threat of band or scarf vish coming in against various team structures forces the player facing vish to make certain decisions throughout the match. It always has influence in a match. It doesn't need to be on the all side of all or nothing to put in work.
I see where you're coming from with vish's struggles with status, but in practice when is vish ever getting parad? What lives a hit to status it? Other than the incredibly unpopular twave ferro, nothing is staying in to use twave on vish. What is vish switching into directly that uses twave either? Not many mons even run it this gen - pretty much clef, kiss, ferro, and the rotoms. You're not switching into any of those except maybe rotom-h if you have good reason to believe it will nplot or overheat and you know your vish is faster. Other than paralysis, it hates burn like every other physical attacker without guts. Nothing special there.
Why is vish switching into clef off of a u-turn in your first scenario? After a wish and you not using protect, there is literally no other move it will click other than twave or moonblast. You're just making up random battle moments that aren't even relevant. Even if it made sense, your first scenario ironically proves my point on vish's influence on the game without even having to see the field anyway. Your corv doesn't get healed and now SD drill, DD haxorus, or whatever can finish you off easier. Regardless, you're just theorymonning in an effort to convince yourself and others that vish is perfectly healthy for the meta by coming up with random situations that never actually happened, assuming you know for sure exactly what your opponent is thinking, and assuming that your prediction is correct and will work. You're also understating vish's typing and bulk. 90/100/80 water/dragon is really solid for an offensive mon. It will not roll over and die easily. There are lots of moves in the meta being thrown around other than draco meteor and moonblast to switch into. Fire, water, and steel moves are plenty common.
And yeah, the super exploitable toad was #4 in usage (28% of teams!!) to counter the #11 rotom-h (17%). I forgot that rotom-h has no other counters. My bad. Mons like LO clef and nplot hydra run rampant because they take advantage of people's necessary prep for vish by slapping passive, weak mons like toad on teams to deal with 1 mon. A suspect test that shows the meta without vish would be so beneficial to reveal whether its absence leads to a more diverse and enjoyable meta.
Also, I'd support an arena trap suspect too. Dug is also quite restricting and makes already great mons like pult even better. I think it minimizes the diversity of the meta. But, because no common checks to vish are weak to dug outside of pex, which probably hates dug the least of all mons weak to eq due to sheer bulk, recovery, and scald access, prioritizing one test over the other doesn't seem beneficial.
ThirdStrongestMole
Banned deucer.
Well it still hits 208 which is okay as a mid speed tier for this slow meta. It outspeeds the majority of clefable, all conkeldurrs (207 is their max speed, exactly one point lower) and most corviknights too. One thing that would be nice would be hitting 250 speed to outspeed adamant dracovish, but that would sacrifice too much bulk for this rotom to keep fulfilling the role I want. Also, it's not usually bad for a pivot to be slow. It lets them switch in take a hit, and the use the slow volt-turn to get an offensive threat in safely. For example, last gen, I always gave my AV magearnas 0 speed IVs to get the slower volt switch vs opposing non-min speed magearnas. This works similarly, where most rotom-heats will be faster than this one, letting it take a hit from the opposing rotom that won't do much damage, and then volt-switch out to something that gives offensive momentum like dracovish.
Thunder Pwoell
Banned deucer.
I’m calling for dugtrio's ban honestly, fuck this nudge until S+ mess. We all know damn well it's absolutely unhealthy and broken yet we play this bullshit game of is it broken or not every generation knowing full damn well that it is; it's a broken mechanic. You even had people running the prevo and trapinch for god's sack like come on, stop the bullshit lol . I do not give a flying shit if it's SPL lmao doesn't mean shit to me, these folks can make teams without it.
edit: Divine Retribution I got deleted and was told to put It in here so anyway mind ya business
edit: Divine Retribution I got deleted and was told to put It in here so anyway mind ya business
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Mad lad actually copy+pasted his post in the VR thread for more likes, jesus.
It gives you counterplay, though. Not perfect counterplay, but that's more than can be said for any Pokemon you'd add to your team to deal with Dugtrio (that's also not mentioning Vish checks like Gastrodon and Vaporeon that have recovery). I'm also not trying to say that Vish isn't necessarily broken, but Dugtrio is the far more pressing issue in my eyes, and I think SPL where Vish saw almost 0 usage while Dugtrio was on every other team (and swung games in several cases) is a good indicator of this.
Dracovish cant really be called broken and heres why. The entire metagame isn't centralized around dracovish and no one is at a particular disadvantage when not using dracovish. That being said what I think about dracovish is that the scarf set is more manageable than the band set. The band set I do think constraints teambuilding a bit but there are more than just one check/counter for it. No one is punished for running something like seismitoad for dracovish is it viable outside that role as solid stealth rock user and np rotom-h check. Now if dracovish only check/counter were something incredibly niche like say a storm drain/water absorb maractus then it would be considered in the realm of brokenness.
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