Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v3 (Usage in post #251)

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I was gonna save this discussion for when the tiering thread became unlocked again but I think a mon that I've discovered to have a very important niche is Wheezing-Galar. Besides the Neutralizing Gas set that it is known for, I experimented with using it with Misty Surge when KyuB and Melmetal were around to prevent them from getting statused. Past their ban though, Wheezing has continued to be useful for the same reason with any other sweeper oriented team. Especially with the new influx of Toxic users, having Misty Terrain up frees switching immensely. Hydreigon comes in on Toxapex and Seismitoad for free for example.

Its main flaw being that it is a bit of a Politoed, not much of a mon in itself and more useful just to send out for the terrain. But it does have a great utility pool that allows it to do useful stuff if it can come in safely or as a last ditch effort. I typically run Defog/Aromatherapy/Memento/Strange Steam full SpDef invested. Full Def investment works too, I just think since I only need it to usually survive one or two encounters I'd rather have it decently bulky on both sides instead of specialized. If you have other hazard control or feel like you can keep status off the whole time, you could run something like Fire Blast or even Will-o-Wisp as if you defog, you unfortunately get rid of the terrain.

Arguments against it that don't turn out in practice are that Defog is more available now as well to get rid of terrain. I've found that if the opponent goes for that, you have a super free switch-in that gives you two turns of setup. Which is all you need usually.

The other 2 mons that I've found have become significantly improved since home are Mantine and Mew. Mantine might be somewhat obvious due to its rain usage but outside of rain I've found the niche of being a Water Absorb mon with Defog and recovery to be super useful. With Heavy-Duty boots it's a pretty killer mon and running full physical bulk actually makes it pretty formidable coming in on resisted hits since it retains a lot of special bulk still.

Mew on the other hand, gaining access to recovery has enabled probably its most devastating set: full Def, CM stored power. In tandem with Misty Surge and screens or just a reliable Aromatherapy user, Mew 6-0s many teams without a ridiculous physical breaker like Dracovish or Darmanitan in sun. The latter Mew can beat out of sun by just recovering off Flare Blitzes while Darm kills itself provided its not banded. Mew can survive scarf Dracovish quite comfortably from full and at +2 it OHKOs with stored power. The secondary attack I typically run is Aura Sphere which allows it past powerful dark types like Bisharp, Tyranitar, and Obstagoon which it can survive provided it is healthy. The alternative is Draining Kiss which gives it a better matchup into Mandibuzz.

Blunder played against me recently in a vid which showcases these two although you can see some of the limitations, I think my Misty Terrain team sets up Mew a little better.
 
Since we're on the subject of Weezing, Neutralizing Gas Weezing-G is a badass TSpikes user. It doesn't care about Magic Bounce Hatterene and Xatu switching in. If Levitate users switch in while Weezing is on the field, or if Weezing switches in on a predicted switch to a Levitate mon, it poisons the Hydreigon or Rotom or whatever. And lastly, if it gets them up and Clef gets poisoned, it takes significant poison damage while Weezing is on the field, which is cool. Just by switching in, Weezing forces it to take damage. If it's Life Orb Clef, it also takes Life Orb damage while Weezing is on the field.
 
Since we're on the subject of Weezing, Neutralizing Gas Weezing-G is a badass TSpikes user. It doesn't care about Magic Bounce Hatterene and Xatu switching in. If Levitate users switch in while Weezing is on the field, or if Weezing switches in on a predicted switch to a Levitate mon, it poisons the Hydreigon or Rotom or whatever. And lastly, if it gets them up and Clef gets poisoned, it takes significant poison damage while Weezing is on the field, which is cool. Just by switching in, Weezing forces it to take damage. If it's Life Orb Clef, it also takes Life Orb damage while Weezing is on the field.
Weezing-G's really cool. To add on to your post, it also prevents auto-weathers and auto-terrains from starting as long as it's on the field, so something like a sack as a last-ditch effort to get weather/terrain set up can't happen against this mon. It also means Hail setters can't use Aurora Veil unless they manually set up Hail by using...well, Hail lol

Another cool thing it does is neutralizing Guts from Conkeldurr and Obstagoon, making it a much better switchin to those two.
 
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Another cool thing it does is neutralizing Guts from Conkeldurr and Obstagoon, making it a much better switchin to those two.
Yea that's actually a pretty big deal since without Guts, Conkeldurr goes from a nearly guaranteed 2HKO on G-Weezing with Facade to a ~70% chance to not even 3HKO.

Losing the Ground and Spikes/Stealth Rock immunity does suck, but a decent amount of stuff that would hit you with Ground moves still threatens you/sets up hazards on you: Excadrill even without Mold Breaker threatens with Iron Head, Banded Terrakion still 2HKOs after Stealth Rock with Stone Edge, and Hippo freely sets up hazards and PP stalls unless G-Weezing carries Toxic. Of course, being trapped by Dugtrio sucks, and getting chipped by hazards (absorbing Toxic Spikes is nice though!) on a mon with no good reliable recovery (Pain Split is iffy) doesn't feel good.
 
Yea that's actually a pretty big deal since without Guts, Conkeldurr goes from a nearly guaranteed 2HKO on G-Weezing with Facade to a ~70% chance to not even 3HKO.

Losing the Ground and Spikes/Stealth Rock immunity does suck, but a decent amount of stuff that would hit you with Ground moves still threatens you/sets up hazards on you: Excadrill even without Mold Breaker threatens with Iron Head, Banded Terrakion still 2HKOs after Stealth Rock with Stone Edge, and Hippo freely sets up hazards and PP stalls unless G-Weezing carries Toxic. Of course, being trapped by Dugtrio sucks, and getting chipped by hazards (absorbing Toxic Spikes is nice though!) on a mon with no good reliable recovery (Pain Split is iffy) doesn't feel good.
No variant of Weezing has a Stealth Rock immunity, and everyone above already mentioned Dugtrio. I will say that as a Pain Split user, it’s one of the better users thanks to its low base HP meaning despite still being an inconsistent form of recovery, you have a better chance at healing yourself with Weezing than something with a higher HP stat.

I’ve actually been attempting a full SpDef set with dual STAB on Weezing-G thanks to it being able to avoid the 2HKO from Timid Hydreigon’s Flash Cannon as long as rocks are off the field, which is easy to do since it pairs very well with either Defog variants of Corviknight or Mandibuzz, or it can run Defog itself although I feel TSpikes is the main selling point to Weezing-G right now. Other benefits include coming in on special variants of Dragapult easier as well as mons like Rotom-C, Togekiss, Clefable, and special Kommo-o. Being walled by Steels sucks, though, and I feel that’s one of the main issues with this mon: 4MSS.
 
I really like Neutralizing Gas for the aforementioned cancelling of Guts and Arena Trap, among others. I find G-Weezing pairs nicely with Bisharp given this set:

Weezing-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Strange Steam
- Fire Blast
- Pain Split
- Aromatherapy

Bisharp delivers havoc on entire teams if Conkeldurr and Hydreigon get out of the way. Fire Blast is a surprise option to catch Ferrothorn (although still only 2HKOs) and occasionally an Excadrill switch in. I'd put Corviknight on there too if it wasn't for FB doing less than Roost. Aromatherapy laughs in the face of Scald burns everywhere. I am not a huge fan of G-Weezing as a Toxic Spikes setter though with Toxapex everywhere.

4MSS hits real different. Strange Steam / Sludge Wave / Fire Blast / Thunderbolt / Toxic Spikes / WoW / Toxic / Pain Split / Haze / Defog when Game Freak
 
This is kind of a random observation, but I've been lurking between 1500-1600s on ladder, and I've noticed that my team with BD kommo tends to run through a crap load of teams. The reason I haven't gone higher yet is due to lack of time investment on ladder & also flaws on my team, and not because of 'mo.

I've come across a bunch of teams with Pult too, and yet I haven't seen much "switch in Pult right away", even though it OHKO Sub Kommo via Infiltrator. My guess is the fear of Clanging Scales.

Like I can think of a handful of recent times where Corv or Clef will come in as I BD first, and then I sub and get the speed boost which is then too late for a Pult to check.

I tested BD Kommo in Gen7OU quite a bit, and for that mid-ladder I don't remember it sweeping as often.

I have noticed some uptick in Togekiss usage. It is kind of restricting though if teams have to run that or Ditto.

As an add-on to this, I'm concerned that in general this meta is un-fixable in regards to things similar to this.
Whereas, something may not be broken but it still runs through your team due to bad matchup, and its also not rare.

The meta may be way too much matchup fishing, having a lot of teams that lack coverage, and also lucky 50/50 circumstances benefitting the person that guessed, not predicted, the right order of things. This would be in comparison to a meta where teams can have multiple wincons that cover the meta pretty nicely, and it's more about who drives and plans the momentum better, and I've felt so far that the Gen7OU meta was better with this.

Perhaps Duggy/AT getting banned before end of March (I guess) will most likely make the meta healthier.
I still feel though that there are multiple other issues at hand, and I have no solution unfortunately unless maybe tons of bans are needed for coverage to be really healthy.
 
This is kind of a random observation, but I've been lurking between 1500-1600s on ladder, and I've noticed that my team with BD kommo tends to run through a crap load of teams. The reason I haven't gone higher yet is due to lack of time investment on ladder & also flaws on my team, and not because of 'mo.

I've come across a bunch of teams with Pult too, and yet I haven't seen much "switch in Pult right away", even though it OHKO Sub Kommo via Infiltrator. My guess is the fear of Clanging Scales.

Like I can think of a handful of recent times where Corv or Clef will come in as I BD first, and then I sub and get the speed boost which is then too late for a Pult to check.

I tested BD Kommo in Gen7OU quite a bit, and for that mid-ladder I don't remember it sweeping as often.

I have noticed some uptick in Togekiss usage. It is kind of restricting though if teams have to run that or Ditto.

As an add-on to this, I'm concerned that in general this meta is un-fixable in regards to things similar to this.
Whereas, something may not be broken but it still runs through your team due to bad matchup, and its also not rare.

The meta may be way too much matchup fishing, having a lot of teams that lack coverage, and also lucky 50/50 circumstances benefitting the person that guessed, not predicted, the right order of things. This would be in comparison to a meta where teams can have multiple wincons that cover the meta pretty nicely, and it's more about who drives and plans the momentum better, and I've felt so far that the Gen7OU meta was better with this.

Perhaps Duggy/AT getting banned before end of March (I guess) will most likely make the meta healthier.
I still feel though that there are multiple other issues at hand, and I have no solution unfortunately unless maybe tons of bans are needed for coverage to be really healthy.
Being entirely fair:
The meta hasnt fully shaken out yet, it’s expected matchup fishing is more of a thing until it truly develops and people are just testing teams and seeing what sticks.
 
I’ve been experimenting with Weezing too.

I think one of the most relevant aspects of Neutralizing Gas Weezing that hasn’t been mentioned is how it can break down walls, most notably Toxapex, by TURNING OFF Regenerator.

—————-

How’s this work in practice?

Say you’re pressuring Toxapex for a bit with Thunderbolt Dragapult or something. You can’t 2HKO it but you’re at a stalemate with Pex using Recover.

So when you anticipate a Toxapex switch out, swap Weezing in. This simple passive act makes it so Toxapex doesn’t heal on the switch out because Regenerator has been nullified.

And the next time Dragapult is in, Pex can no longer wall it.

Furthermore, Weezing can break down other walls like Corviknight, Clefable, and Ferrothorn too. Weezing can learn Taunt and Destiny Bond, so if a wall is in against Weezing 1V1 it can’t use Recover / Roost either. Once Taunted, they can only either attack or switch out. If they chip Weezing down to a point where their next attack will KO, use Destiny Bond.

So the opposing wall is either chipped down to where they’re effectively dead, or they die to Destiny Bond. Neat eh?

————-

This is the set I was experimenting with the intention being to wear down Pex and Corvi. I chose Tbolt as my attacking move to wear them down. The speed EVs let it speed creep and Taunt Corvi. For my team I didn’t want to double up a Steel weakness, so I choose standard Kanto Weezing, but Galar Weezing works too. Customize it to your needs!

Weezing (M) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 196 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt
- Destiny Bond
 
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Kyurem @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Freeze-Dry
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power

252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 177-208 (44.2 - 52%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 194-230 (63.8 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Freeze Dry is such a godsend for Kyurem (kind of wack it didn't get it in previous gens tbh). Just click buttons, you don't need to predict much. It's a much better Specs user than Hydreigon and can chunk down lots of fat waters for your team. While Metronome also heavily benefits from Freeze Dry I think specs is its best set. These four moves give you basically perfect coverage and only dedicated special walls like umbreon can comfortably switch in. I recommend everyone abuse this while we still live in a blob-less metagame.

Worth noting that Modest has a 94% chance to 2HKO max/max corv while Timid is only 14%
 
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What with Pokemon Home shaking up the metagame considerably I wanted to drop a couple of spreads that I have used recently.
I have seen the 252/100/156+ spread in use, but personally I prefer max spdef over that in general. However, on physically based variants, I use 252/204+/52 on default to not get 2hko'd by LO Zera, who is, as predicted a beast.

What with Terrakion being unexpectedly strong, physically defensive Corviknight is making an entrance simply to combat Terrakion easier. However, it doesn't deal with Band exceptionally well, and as such, I saw fit only to run enough for Scarf.
252/48/208+ avoids the 2hko from Scarfed Terrakion, which also has the additional use of 2hkoing lefties Excadrill w/ Body Press (which can also be used to deal w/ Terrakion. A much physically bulkier set of 252/180/76+ can be used to avoid the 2hko from scarf terrakion after rocks, which also has use on Body Press sets, though I forgot what it did :blobshrug:

While max spa zeraora is far from common, you can invest 72 EVs into spdef to avoid the OHKO from zera's grass knot, and it doesn't really miss out on any considerably 2hko's when banded

With the previously mentioned zeroara being everywhere, you can invest simply 88 spdef evs to avoid the ohko from LO grass knot, which is pretty impressive given the 4x weakness.

Rotom-Wash has improved massively with the Home update, gaining Toxic, Defog, and Pain Split, and it is now a viable defogger even on Scarf sets, similar to Lando-T last gen. However, I find Scarfed sets prone to chip, and it can be annoying to have to give up 2 slots on Clefable for wishtect, so I prefer running defensive spreads. 252/40/216+ avoids 2hko from banded Dracovish after rocks (ikr, amazing). Alternately, you can invest 48 EVs to outspeed max speed base 60's, but it doesn't seem to important because you want a slower Volt-Switch most of the time anyways.
If you wish to use 48 EVs anyways, I'd recommend 52 speed to get a Toxic vs Body Press Kommo, and investing the rest into defenses of your choice.
The spreads for washtom are really customazible so I'll just list benchmarks that you'd want to hit
52 Speed EVs: outspeeds 56 speed bp kommo
252/40 Def: avoids 2hko from banded vish after rocks
252/128+ Def: avoids ohko from non-LO drill
252/136 spdef: avoids 2hko from LO toad in rain
252/156+ spdef: avoids ohko from specs freeze dry kyurem
252/72+ spdef: avoids 2hko from kommo-o clanging scales after rocks

:blobthumbsup:
 
I havent found many people talking about teleport on clefable.. Ill be honest teleport is a pretty mediocre tool cause clef isnt that bulky to pivot around but its pretty nice for pivoting on defensive pokemon you otherwise do nothing to


Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Teleport
(Evs are fucked up)

But funnily enough this isnt the star of this set, im here to talk about how stupidly good this move is with dugtrio support. Most common clef switchins are all trapped by dug (and magnezone but thats not available yet :/ ). It consistently lures in sylveon, clef, pex, cinderace, exca for dugtrio to remove

Aside from trapping mons it allows u to gain momentum on mons like kommo, dragapult, corvi..etc instead of them just going to ferro or whatever and take 0% from moonblast. Or enable u to heal pokemon with little to no risk

Heres some replays to showcase how it works (warning: not very high quality):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070233134
Turn 11 i teleport into dugtrio on jirachi for me to trap it. Granted i didnt have a mon to abuse jirachis removal but u get the point

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070282181
On turn 30 i put my opponent in a very tough position. Whether he stayed in with pex or went rotom mow hed lose anyways cause i either trapped the fairy resist or reacted to his rotom mow switchin accordingly

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070259337
On turn 23 i trap clef without the teleport techs but then on turn 38 teleport allowed me to heal dugtrio with wish allowing me to eventually trap pex later which made pp stalling corvi a possibility

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070271463
On turn 30 i put my opponent in a bad position yet again, if i teleported out on his clefable it wouldve got trapped allowing my corv + clef to win the game, if he switched out to corvinight i would go rotom heat and pressure the checks with no recovery

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070421143
Turn 12 i teleport on his pex to dug allowing my heatom+clef+corv to win

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1070737170
Trap ttar early on with a timed teleport preventing any rocks and allowing me to spam shadow ball later on

So yea, my team doesnt even need dugtrio support since uturn dragapult lures in alot of the mons clef lures but i thought id try it out anyways. Im sure more creative people can find ways to abuse this more. Thanks for reading
 
Thoughts on necrozma (since the last discussion in this thread)? I'm honestly not that impressed by the weakness policy sweeper set. I would expect a 130 spa 100bp stab w/ weakness policy activated and full neutral coverage to just slice thru teams but in practice I feel like I need to work too hard for necrozma to do his job. Maybe I'm using him wrong?
 
so offensive Araquanid has been really effective for me recently
1582965498030.png

Araquanid @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpA
Brave Nature
- Liquidation
- Leech Life / Scald
- Giga Drain
- Mirror Coat

People seem to really underestimate how strong this thing is, most things that Liquidation hits neutrally can't safely switch in on it and it basically eats any special hit in the game. Most Rotoms will click volt switch on Araquanid, and even an offensive Rotom won't do more than 40 - then, hit back (usually on an incoming toad) with mirror coat. It struggles with rocks and is obviously frail as hell physically, so Ferrothorn is the obvious pairing as they cover each others weaknesses. Leech Life barely sees use because of how strong water bubble is, so you really only need it for grass types, which is why Scald is better if you want to hit specially as well. A ton of special threats just get neutralised by Araquanid because of its bulk with AV and ability to hit back hard, and it's difficult to switch in on a x2 liquidation no matter what you are. It's also a nice lead since your opponent will often expect sticky web and it can chip away at a lot of other leads, the only real exception being something like a Kommo-o.

in a nutshell, don't sleep on Araquanid, it hits hard
 
Thoughts on necrozma (since the last discussion in this thread)? I'm honestly not that impressed by the weakness policy sweeper set. I would expect a 130 spa 100bp stab w/ weakness policy activated and full neutral coverage to just slice thru teams but in practice I feel like I need to work too hard for necrozma to do his job. Maybe I'm using him wrong?
Necro is cool but I think it's hard to compete with the number of powerful offensive options we currently have. LO Clef, Dragapult, DD Gyara, Cloyster, Dugtrio, Zera, Dracovish, etc. all pressure defensive cores so heavily that it's hard to make room on the team for a "jack of all trades, master of none" mon like Necro. With DD, this thing has so many options, but imo it has struggled to compete with the rest of the OU meta.

I think the old Gen 7 RU set - SR/Moonlight/Photon/HW - would be useful but again, it's hard to compete with Clef, who does everything this set can do, but without needing to fear for entry hazards, Toxic, or Dragapult - things that Clef handles extremely well by comparison. I do think it has offensive potential, but it's going to be a mon that needs a lot of support unless its played perfectly.
 
I wanted to talk about some pokemon I've been really loving lately that I think should have some light shed on them.
1583007687447.png

Mantine is really, really good right now in my opinion. Pre-home, it was picking up a lot of popularity with the metronome set in the rain, but post home it has a lot more utility now and it's looking like this is the gen where it can finally shine. It's really a great blanket check on a great amount of the meta; it can check or counter: excadrill, most dragapults, non toxic keldeo, cinderace, and it is a really consistent defogger. also, if it has another remover on it's team, it can run toxic and haze (along with the givens in scald and roost) which is really really good because it makes it less passive and it can be your check to setup sweepers. the set i run is just max defense max hp, heavy duty boots. someone can probably find a more optimized ev spread but yea I think this is a pretty great mon right now.

1583008085502.png

Truth be told, i don't think mandibuzz is that much better right now than it usually is. I just wanted to say that I think on sets without defog because you might have another remover on your team, brave bird could be a good option. Conkeldurr is to me the worst thing in the whole meta to prep for and it really doesn't have a counter, but this could catch some people by surprise thinking that they can just stay in on mandibuzz. again, not too great but if you don't want to run corviknight because you have some other steel types or you don't think corv complements your team well, this is a potential option that i think is worth thinking about.

1583008246342.png

This is my favorite pokemon in the game right now. Bisharp is basically just really, really good. I think this is the best it's been a long time. The coverage with knock off is obviously incredible and nothing can really switch into this. I think life orb is bad and you're almost always better off running dark glasses or even lum berry. This shreds through common defensive cores: Seismitoad dies to +2 knock off after a little bit of chip, corviknight can't switch into +2, kommo o isn't a bad switch in but can't take two +2 iron heads and is pretty easy to chip down, rotom forms can't take this on, it obviously destroys fairies like clefable which is like the best mon in the meta right now. also, it obviously has sucker punch which means that if you guess right you can shred offenses and potential beat dugtrios depending on the context of the game, but dugtrio is obviously a problem for this. this is very easy to fit onto hyper and bulky offense teams and it complements most other offensie mons very well. i think it should be considered in the same tier as the other great offensive threats of the meta right now (keldeo, zeraora, conkeldurr, terrakion etc). however, i think the thing that really makes this great is two specific pokemon that were introduced in pokemon home: jirachi and celebi. scarf healing wish jirachi and celebi can both u turn to get a safe switch into bisharp, but also they allow basically two bisharps per game. you can set up, stay in on a defensive mon that is hard for your team to deal with, if you take damage from them instead of sacking bish you can just save it and then heal it back up later and now they probably don't have a way to deal with this
 
I wanted to talk about some pokemon I've been really loving lately that I think should have some light shed on them.
View attachment 225374
Mantine is really, really good right now in my opinion. Pre-home, it was picking up a lot of popularity with the metronome set in the rain, but post home it has a lot more utility now and it's looking like this is the gen where it can finally shine. It's really a great blanket check on a great amount of the meta; it can check or counter: excadrill, most dragapults, non toxic keldeo, cinderace, and it is a really consistent defogger. also, if it has another remover on it's team, it can run toxic and haze (along with the givens in scald and roost) which is really really good because it makes it less passive and it can be your check to setup sweepers. the set i run is just max defense max hp, heavy duty boots. someone can probably find a more optimized ev spread but yea I think this is a pretty great mon right now.

View attachment 225375
Truth be told, i don't think mandibuzz is that much better right now than it usually is. I just wanted to say that I think on sets without defog because you might have another remover on your team, brave bird could be a good option. Conkeldurr is to me the worst thing in the whole meta to prep for and it really doesn't have a counter, but this could catch some people by surprise thinking that they can just stay in on mandibuzz. again, not too great but if you don't want to run corviknight because you have some other steel types or you don't think corv complements your team well, this is a potential option that i think is worth thinking about.

View attachment 225377
This is my favorite pokemon in the game right now. Bisharp is basically just really, really good. I think this is the best it's been a long time. The coverage with knock off is obviously incredible and nothing can really switch into this. I think life orb is bad and you're almost always better off running dark glasses or even lum berry. This shreds through common defensive cores: Seismitoad dies to +2 knock off after a little bit of chip, corviknight can't switch into +2, kommo o isn't a bad switch in but can't take two +2 iron heads and is pretty easy to chip down, rotom forms can't take this on, it obviously destroys fairies like clefable which is like the best mon in the meta right now. also, it obviously has sucker punch which means that if you guess right you can shred offenses and potential beat dugtrios depending on the context of the game, but dugtrio is obviously a problem for this. this is very easy to fit onto hyper and bulky offense teams and it complements most other offensie mons very well. i think it should be considered in the same tier as the other great offensive threats of the meta right now (keldeo, zeraora, conkeldurr, terrakion etc). however, i think the thing that really makes this great is two specific pokemon that were introduced in pokemon home: jirachi and celebi. scarf healing wish jirachi and celebi can both u turn to get a safe switch into bisharp, but also they allow basically two bisharps per game. you can set up, stay in on a defensive mon that is hard for your team to deal with, if you take damage from them instead of sacking bish you can just save it and then heal it back up later and now they probably don't have a way to deal with this
To add on your points about mandibuzz, brave bird also helps versus sun teams with venusaur. I do agree that mantine gained more utility after home with gaining access to defog. However, I personally perfer corviknight as a defogger in the meta as the combination with pressure so good. But that doesnt mean, mantine is completely outclassed by corvi because mantine doesnt die to a fishious rend due to water absorb but corviknight does as you stated and it performs the role of a special defensive better then corviknight though both have to watch out for super effective coverage .I agree on offensive teams bisharp's offensive pressure is matched by few. It getting knock off back made it even better as i found it to be solid before home came out. even with all the fighting types being introduced and kommo-o being common it is still able to help offensive teams by removing items with a strong stab knock off. mantine getting defog back is nice as now it can run more then just offensive rains sets. also being a dracovish check and defogger in one makes it have solid role compression.
 
I will try to outline things a bit further in order to paint a proper picture for you, but I worry that many ban happy posters will turn a blind-eye to actual arguments and justified hesitation until their desires are appeased, so perhaps this is futile regardless of my efforts to be transparent. We could easily revert back to the decreased levels of public engagement and transparency of last generation if that is the case.
I know this is an old post Finch, I'm just catching up on this thread. Can I just say to please not consider this. I understand what you're saying but honestly the increased transparency has been really nice this gen. Hearing the processes behind discussion that occurs on council in making decisions has been much improved as of late, and I am personally really enjoying. Specifically with the Dynamax explanation post, I feel it was a great step to making Smogon OU a much more accessible community to understand. Sets a good precedent for my mind, just letting you know.

In other news, Incineroar feels really good to use right now, much better than SM. Heavy-Duty Boots and Parting Shot are nuts additions. We've been lacking good intimidate mons and for me Incineroar fills that niche nicely. Will be better once Duggy is eventually sent to the shadow realm.
 
How have peoples experiences with Deciudeye been? I found some use in Sub/SD/Spirit/Sneak and spooky plate, but actually building around the dude and making him do work was hard for me. Tbf, I played pretty poorly during my testing, so I wanted to hear anyone else's thoughts who were able to optimize him, a team around him, and their overall thoughts on the mon vs OU.
One set I've been mostly using recently is
Decidueye @ Assault Vest
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spirit Shackle
- Leaf Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Uturn
I really like this set over more traditional swords dance sets for its ability to switch into spdef based wishpassing mons, cutting them off completely and drying them of their wishes, the extra bulk that AV provides also really helps it out in this role and makes sure it isn't worn down as quickly. The speed on this spread is specifically just to outrun mandibuzz which poses the biggest defensive problem for it usually.
 
One set I've been mostly using recently is
Decidueye @ Assault Vest
Ability: Long Reach
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Spirit Shackle
- Leaf Blade
- Shadow Sneak
- Uturn
I really like this set over more traditional swords dance sets for its ability to switch into spdef based wishpassing mons, cutting them off completely and drying them of their wishes, the extra bulk that AV provides also really helps it out in this role and makes sure it isn't worn down as quickly. The speed on this spread is specifically just to outrun mandibuzz which poses the biggest defensive problem for it usually.
I can't make sense of this. You're either going to be switching in on a Wish or a Moonblast (or another weak attack)e, so over time you're going to get worn down. Next, the wishpasser can protect on your Shackle to heal itself, or simply pass to another mon who resists what you're throwing at it. Additionally, if you're running Shackle, your whole purpose is to trap mons - making Uturn a somewhat odd choice. Then, for a mon like Decidueye with a SpDef stat that is higher than its HP, AV is going to provide marginal utility over an item like Lefties. And last, why do any of this when you can run Sub/Roost to protect yourself both from potential status damage AND provide game-long recovery? Sorry to go in on you but Roost/SD is a much better option to send in against Clef, Vaporeon, or Sylveon.
 
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