Metagame SS OU Metagame Discussion v3 (Usage in post #251)

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Conkeldurr actually is looking pretty dangerous, not just by getting Knock-Off that allows it to harass Dragapult and Ageislash, but also other meta changes in home.
Toxic and burns are very common now, and with Guts " inflicting any status condition is just going to make Conkeldurr hit even harder. Also being decent answers to Terrakion and Kyruem-B , abd being able to hit Melmetal pretty hard while still outspeeding it is something to note

I think a Flame Orb set may be a good possible set. As it can easily recover the damage from Burns with boosted Drain Punches. It is the better scenario than being badly poisoned , or the more rare but still annoying sleep moves
 
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Jordy

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I've played around 60 or so games and built a couple of teams so I'd like to share my thoughts on some Pokemon in the current metagame. I'm not going to spend any time talking about Kyurem-B or Melmetal because they're broken and it's not hard to see why.


Terrakion has been a little disappointing from my experience with it. It oftentimes struggles to set up, is prone to being trapped by Dugtrio, and can be punished pretty easily for whatever it locks into if it's running a Choice item. On paper, Terrakion's amazing against the classic Clefable bulky offense and balance teams that we've seen flourish in SS OU, but it is very hard to find good opportunities to set up, and is very prone to being trapped by Dugtrio if it's not running Quick Attack, which ultimately makes it a little mediocre as a balance breaker. Beyond that, I think Choice-locked sets are a bit better but as I said, whatever Terrakion locks into is pretty easy to take advantage of. Players will often have to gamble on the first turn, though. Terrakion's also held back by just how good Conkeldurr is.


Keldeo's definitely one of the better Choice Scarf users right now; the ability to check very threatening Pokemon like Kyurem-B, Terrakion, and Cloyster is great. I also think that Keldeo sets that focus more on breaking down teams can be very potent among Dugtrio, which can remove checks such as Toxapex and Clefable, though I'd like to play around with it a little more first.


With the release of Pokemon Home, Clefable has regained access to Soft-Boiled as well as other useful utility moves like Knock Off. I think Clefable's really disgusting to play against whenever you're not being run over by Kyurem-B or Melmetal. This is mostly because of our complete lack of Pokemon that can afford to switch into Knock Off; common checks to Clefable such as Toxapex, Corviknight, and Excadrill are rather dependant on their item and Clefable can often force them into play, making them very susceptible against Pokemon such as Aegislash and Terrakion. Beyond that, Clefable also has a lot of merit in this metagame as one of the best pivots into Conkeldurr and Terrakion.


I don't think SubToxic Aegislash is quite as good as it's made out to be. It really struggles to break past common Pokemon like Corviknight and Toxapex, which Substitute sets have struggled with in the past as well. If you manage to force a Knock Off on them with another Pokemon like Clefable, Aegislash can become really annoying to deal with, though. Anyhow, I'd like to talk about Choice Specs Aegislash a little as well, which not a lot of people seem to be recognizing. The addition of Toxic has been great for Choice Specs Aegislash; it only really needs 2 moves anyways so it has plenty of room for Toxic. With Toxic, Aegislash can cripple Mandibuzz, one of the very few save pivots otherwise and it is very polarizing in matchups once it manages to do so, as a poisoned Mandibuzz is pressured an incredible amount. With how many people are assuming Aegislash is running a SubToxic set, you can often gain a significant advantage over people who blindly switch their Corviknight or Toxapex into Aegislash.


The addition of Knock Off to Conkeldurr's movepool has basically removed the idea of remotely decent counterplay to it altogether. It's very hard to make midground plays to minimize Conkeldurr's impact now that it has such a spammable move in Knock Off; for example, if you want to pivot into Facade or Earthquake, your Corviknight will likely take a Knock Off in the process, greatly diminishing its durability. Mach Punch is also of even more value than ever before with Kyurem-B and Terrakion running around. Ofcourse, its ability to check other Pokemon like Cloyster is as great as ever too.


Unfortunately I don't have any replays, but I'd also like to talk about Mantine a little, as I believe it has a ton of merit in the current metagame. Mantine is a very interesting Pokemon thanks to its ability to almost completely shut down rain and sun teams, check Keldeo and Excadrill, and its ability to potentially compress entry hazard removal. It doesn't have a great matchup against most entry hazard setters, though. Regardless, I look forward to seeing more people try out Mantine.

This is probably the worst metagame we've had since Aegislash meta in SM, so I'm looking forward to see how the council will act.
 
About Kyu-B: it should be noted that ecen though Melmetal is a solid check and counters DD sets, if Kyu-B is running Heavy-duty boots it can just switch out and come back later to wreck havoc. Meanwhile Melmetal is taking about 25% of it switches in and has no recovery whatsoever, so as long as you have a Melmetal check like Rotom-H you can keep doing this until it's in KO range.
 
About Kyu-B: it should be noted that ecen though Melmetal is a solid check and counters DD sets, if Kyu-B is running Heavy-duty boots it can just switch out and come back later to wreck havoc. Meanwhile Melmetal is taking about 25% of it switches in and has no recovery whatsoever, so as long as you have a Melmetal check like Rotom-H you can keep doing this until it's in KO range.
Depends on scouting tbh, youd have to know the melmetal set. AV and substitute sets can be a bitch to switch into without scouting due to coverage moves like eq/thunderpunch/rockslide/superpower. Choiced melmetal sets are obviously much easier to dance around and by deploying it constantly they are gonna fall far behind on momentum or get everything chipped to death.

But honestly I feel like you need more than 1 check/counter to kyurem black in this meta its everywhere and its broken af. If your 1 check/counter gets chipped into range its just gg if he ever manages to get kyurem out safely.
 
Melmetal is the only thing that checks it and jirachi is virtually the only revenge killer. Both are eliminated by dugtrio.
I think you meant to say switch-ins, since the only other 100% safe switch-in I can think of is Avalugg. There's a lot of scarfers besides Jirachi that can revenge kill Kyurem B, some of which, namely Hydreigon, were used and viable before kyub dropped. I've personally been using scarf Terrakion to good effect, but I also ran into scarf Cinderace, scarf Dragapult, scarf Keldeo, and weather sweepers like Excadrill, all of which outspeed and OHKO kyub. It certainly doesn't help that Hydreigon isn't even trapped by duggy.

As for melmetal vs duggy, well, I'll let the calcs speak for themselves.
252+ Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 330-390 (80.2 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 330-390 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
228+ Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 474-558 (224.6 - 264.4%) -- guaranteed overkill
 
Right, time to share some less cancer sets from a newcomer that will be in the tier for longer than a week.
Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Autotomize
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Morning Sun
Double Dance Nec is kinda like a bad Reuniclus, but with Speed Boosts. Not a lot more I can say really. After an Auto+CM, Stored Power is the same power as Photon Geyser, but with potential to go higher. Morning Sun is the best you get. Set existed last gen. Next.
Necrozma @ Life Orb
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Photon Geyser
- Moonlight/Brick Break
Dragon Dance Nec is interesting. On the one hand, boosted Photon Geysers running through teams. On the other, Dark types exist. Knock Off is a great utility option for Nec to have, allowing it to punish its switch-ins (nothing likes a Knock, never mind a +1 Knock Off). Moonlight lets you heal up and clear Life Orb damage, Brick Break lets you smash Darks.
Necrozma @ Leftovers
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Heat Wave
- Toxic
- Moonlight
This is the set that stands out to me the more I think about it. Every hazard remover in the tier that doesn't mind Toxic gets nailed by a Heat Wave. While no STAB is interesting, I think this is the best way to punish anything trying to Defog. Some calcs:
252+ SpA Necrozma Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Corviknight: 180-212 (45 - 53%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (so worst case you nail it on the switch in)
252+ SpA Necrozma Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 258-304 (64.5 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Necrozma Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Melmetal: 318-376 (77.3 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Can we all agree this thing is stupid AF? This is uninvested, on its weak point and SE from a fully invested base 127. WTF.)
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Necrozma: 296-348 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (the 4 EVs matter yay)
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma: 275-324 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Enjoy once some quickbans happen.
 
Take this with a grain of salt because I'm just a humble UU player but here's some things I've been trying.


Kyurem @ Metronome
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 196 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Roost

SubRoost Kyurem has been working pretty well for me lately. Its natural bulk and Dragon typing mean it gets a lot of opportunities to come in on passive stuff, Sub up, and start causing trouble. The lack of immediate power can be problematic, but that's not the objective with this mon. This set requires playing patiently, keeping yourself healthy while Pressure stalls out your opponent's moves, and letting Metronome ramp up.


Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Sparkling Aria
- Psychic

This has also been a cool mon to test out. Water/Fairy is a great offensive typing, with Psychic to blast Toxapex. Though its physical bulk isn't great, its typing and special bulk means it can check stuff like Hydreigon, Keldeo, and Kommo-o. Specs Hydro Pump hits like a semi. Well, when it decides to hit.

Kyu-B and Melmetal are both ridiculous. I can see them getting the boot, if not quick banned, then after a suspect test.

Not new stuff that I've also been trying:

AoA LO Gengar is disgustingly strong. A shame it's so susceptible to Dugtrio. Edit: nvm there's a reason I don't post my thoughts on meta often :V

Obstagoon forces a lot of switches so I've been running Bulk Up over Obstruct to snatch a sneaky stat boost. Sometimes I wish I had Obstruct, but +1 Attack makes this thing even harder to stomach, and +1 Defense means you have a small but not insignificant chance to survive a Guts Conk Mach Punch (252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Obstagoon: 304-360 (92.9 - 110%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO) and OHKO back with Facade.

Tried using Copperajah for style points but oof does it curl up and die a lot.

Happy laddering, y'all!
 
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I know people are saying that Melmetal and Kyurem-Black are the two strongest mons right now, but I think Sun teams might be stronger and beat both of the ban-worthy picks:

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb / Earth Power
- Weather Ball

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly cannot find a counter to this set. Torkoal sets up sun, and Venusaur can safely come in on a lot of common picks in the meta to start setting-up. Once this thing hits +3 SpA, it can nearly OHKO everything in OU with its amazing coverage and speed. I'm barely trying on the ladder with a team I made in about 2 minutes, and sweeping nearly everyone. I don't think I've had a game yet where this thing doesn't get at least one kill...
 
My takeaway from the new introductions is that Unaware Quagsire got better, and I would argue is a better choice over Water Absorb now. Seems like nobody is running Dracovish anymore, and with all the new setup running around, Unaware Quag has been pulling his weight for me hard. People seem to assume Water Absorb, for example setting up Swords Dance Terrakion in my face just to do 30% with Close Combat.
 
Take this with a grain of salt because I'm just a humble UU player but here's some things I've been trying.


Kyurem @ Metronome
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 56 HP / 196 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Roost
I would change up the EV spread a little
Having 56 HP and 4 SpD was only useful for Chansey’s Seismic Toss and not being OHKO’d by Mega Charizard Y, neither of which exist in the game.
 
I know people are saying that Melmetal and Kyurem-Black are the two strongest mons right now, but I think Sun teams might be stronger and beat both of the ban-worthy picks:

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb / Earth Power
- Weather Ball

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly cannot find a counter to this set. Torkoal sets up sun, and Venusaur can safely come in on a lot of common picks in the meta to start setting-up. Once this thing hits +3 SpA, it can nearly OHKO everything in OU with its amazing coverage and speed. I'm barely trying on the ladder with a team I made in about 2 minutes, and sweeping nearly everyone. I don't think I've had a game yet where this thing doesn't get at least one kill...
Look out for Ice Shard users, Bulletproof Kommo-O and Dragapult.

(And then the rare specially bulky stuff like Snorlax, Centiscortch, Flareon, Umbreon and Goodra who can’t be hit SE, I suppose.)
 
Is anyone feeling like Conc is way to strong right now? Jesus just knock of makes him impposible to switch in to. He really just took Obstagoons only thing it had over it and made it worse to deal with. In this meta he feels like a choice band user without one move use restriction. But it also makes me happy that obstagoon has no sucker punch in his arsenal. And Conc also resist only entry hazard that matters: stealth rock and has recovery in form of drain punch.
Also my beutifull boy is pretty good in this generation since he gained calm mind. I am talking about our cute mermaid.

Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Moonblast
- Psychic

Basically nothing resist this stab combinations and with influx of fighting pokemon he has easy gateway in. Then you can decide if you want to calm mind or just fire away with your attacks since even unboosted they hurt. And you can still take some special and even non physical fighting attacks since of his good bulk. I am loving it so far.
 
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I would change up the EV spread a little
Having 56 HP and 4 SpD was only useful for Chansey’s Seismic Toss and not being OHKO’d by Mega Charizard Y, neither of which exist in the game.
The HP let's you use 4 subs while having 1 hp left. This lets you stall out gyro ball from ferrothorn, stone edges from T-Tar(Assuming they all hit), and other super effective 8 PP moves. It's a very valuable utility to have. The 4 sp. def. is definitely not that useful though.

Optimizing that set for this meta would require making an hp stat divisible by 4 then adding 1. You could get that with 8 HP/248 Sp.Tack/ and 252 Sp. with a Jolly nature. IMO, this is the optimal EV spread for the current meta.
 
This metagame is fucking ass. Obviously Kyurem-B and Melmetal (who fucks up Toxapex with a resisted Steel move ~60% of the time) are the most pressing problems, but Dugtrio is still just as aids as always and I suspect that there are certain Pokemon right now who seem lackluster mostly because they're being overshadowed by more threatening monsters, but if/once those Pokemon are removed will prove to be problematic themselves. The two biggest threats on my radar in this regard are Terrakion and Venusaur (and Sun in general, but Venusaur is the biggest component of this at the moment).

Anyways I've been fucking around with Trick Room a little bit because taking this metagame seriously is painful and pointless, and I've been having some decent success with it. If you thought Melmetal was cancerous in general, try dealing with it under Trick Room where it flinches your checks and flattens your team more than half the time. In particular a core that I think has a ton of potential (if somehow Melmetal lasts in the tier) is Aegislash + Melmetal. With two absurdly powerful breakers, balance and fat teams just fold in half, and Trick Room has a naturally pretty solid matchup against most offense variants. Stall basically doesn't exist in this metagame and if it did Melmetal would 6-0 it. I'm hesitant to call Trick Room viable but it's been working pretty decently for me so far.

The variant I've been having the most success with is Reuniclus / Melmetal / Aegislash / Clefable / Bronzong / Crawdaunt using some pretty stock standard sets. Opposing Aegislash is a bitch but you can usually play around it, Gengar on the other hand legit just 6-0s me (just click X if you see it on the opposing team and save yourself a couple minutes) and Chandelure probably does too but I haven't ran into that yet, so the team definitely needs some work before I'd even try to pass it off as viable, but even this, a shitty team that I slapped together in like 15 minutes, has been getting me surprisingly good results. I'm chalking it up to the Aegislash / Melmetal core being broken, and the fact that Bronzong uses many of the most broken mons in the metagame as setup bait for Trick Room.

TL:DR of this post: ban Melmetal, ban Kyurem-Black, ban Dugtrio, probably ban Aegislash too, possibly ban Terrakion, we'll have to see what it does when Duggy/Aegis get the axe, keep an eye on Venusaur (maybe ban that shit too), fucking ban everything, this metagame is excruciating, I miss Gen 4.
 
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Ausma

Formerly mangarrow
Oh boy, my obligatory unasked thoughts! Fun times galore. I've played about... 30-40 or so games at this point, so let me give my thoughts based on what I've seen.


DO NOT SLEEP ON MANTINE. Now that it has Toxic and Defog in its arsenal again, with HDB to bear and Dracovish running about, it finally has a more realized niche in the tier. Not only does it role compress incredibly well with access to Defog and Water Absorb, but its stat spread and defensive typing also lets it wall a surprising amount of the metagame with offensive Steel moves now so common. Additionally, its access to things like Haze, Tailwind (if you really want to use that), and Toxic lets it serve utility outside of Defog. On top of that, a decent SpAtk stat lets it hold a candle against Sub Hydreigon with Ice Beam, which would otherwise wall its defensive set.

Here's a replay to show an example of its defensive potential. https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1062891175 It's most optimal to run with max Phys Def, as its special defense lets it already soak special hits well without need to invest.

Additionally, I've found some success running it with Swift Swim as well, letting it work nicely on rain teams as an offensive sweeper thanks to access to a menacing STAB Hurricane, something it has over stuff like Dracovish, Skewda, and Ludicolo on top of its ability to soak hits with its natural bulk. This lets it shred the new Musketeers. Rotom, Kyurem, and the new Zeraora give it a tough time, though.

However, its flexibility both offensively and defensively is something in this meta that is going to be extremely nice. To me, it feels like a less passive, more flexible Toxapex with a nifty ground immunity, which is unbelievably good in the meta right now. As I said, do NOT sleep on this thing.


I think Kyurem will have a good place in the meta with the ability to offensively stallbreak and shred balance archetypes. Freeze-Dry now gives it the ability to challenge a lot of bulky waters that walled it before, and given how many defensively powerful mons such as Seismitoad, Quagsire, and Mantine are becoming more prevalent, getting Freeze-Dry will allow it to easily cleave through these Pokemon. Earth Power and Freeze-Dry provide it with ubiquitous, perfect coverage that can pry apart most teams if unprepared, and its speed tier is legitimately nice atm. Unfortunately, though, the Musketeers and Melmetal running around give this thing some trouble, and its need of Metronome leaves it pretty hazard weak. Lefties and HDB are options to run on this set, though, and they're definitely viable.

Though, I want to bring attention to the option of running a Choice Scarf. Not only does this remedy the problem of being outrun by the Musketeers naturally, but it will always outpace scarfed Rotoms, and with Freeze Dry, Focus Blast, and Toxic at its disposal, it can act as a powerful wincon in the meta if unprepared.

I think this thing will be a great stall/balance breaker later down the line, but as of right now with AV Melmetal/Musketeers being so prevalent, it might need some support to fully realize its potential. But, I think this thing will be very solid eventually, and a strong Pokemon to have as a whole.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1062887537 Example of SubRoost doing some big boy work.


A bit overrated in my eyes with Melmetal's arrival and the Rotoms becoming even more common somehow. But, it is adapting extremely well by running LO Teravolt Earth Power/Focus Blast to cleave through its checks. I think this thing is definitely too much for the tier with the sheer power coming off of Dragon Dance boosted Spears/Dragon Claw/Fusion Bolt and the ability to easily adapt to its potential checks, making it an absolute pain to prepare for, but, it could be managed, maybe (emphasis on the maybe, because I really don't like what I see). Let's just see how this plays out. It is only day 2-3 into Home, after all; though, the fact it's forcing Dragapult and Jirachi to run a Scarf almost by itself is kind of concerning.


What can I say about this thing that hasn't already been said? Absolutely amazing typing in mono steel rn, gargantuan physical stats that lets it shred almost any team archetype, and surprising flexibility in Band, AV, and Thunder Wave sets. Holy shit. This thing is a top tier Pokemon atm, and I feel like I don't really need to explain why without being redundant. Though, its inability to recover reliably, its speed, and the raising use of Rotom does heavily keep this thing in check, so I believe it's still manageable, but it's on the cusp of being one of the best mons in the tier at the moment (and a headache, at that). Similar with Kyurem-Black, I think we should wait this out and see whether it's broken or not--though, despite how potent it is, I think it's just barely manageable.


Despite how good in theory this thing has been made out to be, I find it odd how I haven't seen very many. It's great that it checks Rotom thanks to Volt Absorb, has the ability to naturally outspeed Dragapult (and threaten it with Play Rough) and has a ton of offensive options, though. I think this thing will have a very defined niche in the tier once the new toy syndrome does its time.


Incineroar has a niche, albeit not too big of one. Fire/Dark is an extremely nice typing in a meta where Ghost and Steel spam is nigh ubiquitous, and Intimidate is also cool to soften up the physical onslaught in the tier at the moment. I like that it has Close Combat as well as Parting Shot now, but... it kind of needs to run HDB to not die to hazards. I think it can be a super strong pivot in the right hands, though.


My attachment to this Pokemon makes me want to love it even more, and I'm happy to say that its new access to Calm Mind and its strong, synergistic dual STAB serves it nicely. It's similar to Incineroar where it's not fantastic, but it has a niche anyway since Azu is gone (for now, at least).


I loathe Arena Trap, and I hate that it's gotten even better with the new emphasis on Steel Pokemon. It's amazing to me that we keep unbanning it and keep trying to see if a mechanic that we've time and time again deemed broken is broken, and it keeps showing how ridiculous and constricting it always is. This thing is partners in crime with Venusaur, and Venusaur has made this thing even better indirectly by erasing things that otherwise check the former. I don't like that I'm seeing it on every other team now too with how incredibly good Melmetal is, and I don't like that it's even able to trap new things like Scarfed Jirachi/Terrakion and Zeraora with a new Scarf set I've seen time to time. You can't make any gutsy plays or play flexibly with Ground weak Pokemon if the threat of Dugtrio is still active, slowing down games and promoting an extremely unhealthy uncompetitive atmosphere. I'm not a fan of banning things, but... please, dear god, why hasn't this been addressed yet?


Sun is pretty much viable again because of Venusaur alone. Not only does it have a better setter in Torkoal to support it, but new access to Weather Ball and Earth Power have made this thing an absolute nightmare to face. Duggie being around also makes it even better, as I stated before. Don't sleep on this thing.


Overrated, though I think everyone is starting to see that now. Subpar offensive stats kind of hurt it a lot, and it's not like Cloyster where it has stupid bulk and a phenomenal ability/set of moves to support it. It's just... meh.


I'm unsure if it's the teams I'm using, or if I'm just not running into any good users of it, but... SubToxic Aegislash is nowhere near as bad as I thought it'd be. We're in a Steel based Meta rn with Melmetal around, and Ghost Spam (which is... ghost spam) is still an extremely potent way to threaten it. I've also found Taunt Bulletproof Kommo-O is a great hard counter to it, and doesn't even need to specialize in countering it as it can spec into providing Rocks and soaking physical hits as a whole. Still though, the addition of Toxic does give it an extra option, and a very good option at that. Its one negative matchup in stall is remedied by holding Toxic, which I believe will take it from being among the best to being a top 5 (maybe top 3) Pokemon in the tier. It's also cool that it checks Melmetal and Kyurem, giant threats atm.

May add more later, but this is the bulk of what I wanted to address.
 
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A bit overrated in my eyes with Melmetal's arrival and the Rotoms becoming even more common somehow. But, it is adapting extremely well by running LO Teravolt Earth Power/Focus Blast to cleave through its checks. I think this thing is definitely too much for the tier with the sheer power coming off of Dragon Dance boosted Spears/Dragon Claw/Fusion Bolt and the ability to easily adapt to its potential checks, making it an absolute pain to prepare for, but, it can be managed, maybe. Let's see how this plays out. It is only day 2-3 into Home, after all; though, the fact it's forcing Dragapult and Jirachi to run a Scarf almost by itself is kind of concerning.
Everyone is speaking about DD Kyu-b when you all sleepin on Mixed Lo , dismantle fat & stall and picks off kills everytimes its in (yeah no chansey) ;

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Iron Head

Currently sitting top 15 abusing that bad boy and just won back to back OU & Tournament room tours earlier with the same team :

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1062946252
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1062947596

Also CM necrozma do particularly well ;

Necrozma @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 144 HP / 252 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Photon Geyser
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight / - Power gem ( hello mandi and a way to kill daunt )
 
I know people are saying that Melmetal and Kyurem-Black are the two strongest mons right now, but I think Sun teams might be stronger and beat both of the ban-worthy picks:

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Growth
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb / Earth Power
- Weather Ball

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I honestly cannot find a counter to this set. Torkoal sets up sun, and Venusaur can safely come in on a lot of common picks in the meta to start setting-up. Once this thing hits +3 SpA, it can nearly OHKO everything in OU with its amazing coverage and speed. I'm barely trying on the ladder with a team I made in about 2 minutes, and sweeping nearly everyone. I don't think I've had a game yet where this thing doesn't get at least one kill...
I have to agree. Venusaur is fantastic and if you manage to get a Growth off (not hard vs Moonblast-only Clef, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Seismitoad) it can rip through teams. It has perfect coverage to destroy the common OU defensive backbone (Seismitoad+Corviknight+Sylveon/Clefable) with Giga Drain, Weather Ball and Sludge Bomb respectively.

I was using a sun team today and it worked really well. LO Fire Darm lands a 2HKO with Flare Blitz on Toxapex in the sun...not sure if that was a physical Tox spread or not, but it hit HARD.
 

Gross Sweep

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I have not played as much Sword and Shield as I would have liked to up to this point. That said I have found the time to play a few games since home dropped (only about 50). Through those games I've come to draw my own conclusions about a few of the new mons home either brought/or gave new options. So here we go with a few of my thoughts that have probably already been stated earlier in this thread as all the like whores are making these posts.

Conk is honestly my favorite mon to use in the current metagame. Still hits like a truck, but now has Knock Off, which eases prediction as it gives a nice mid ground option that helps vs everything as we're in a world with no megas or Z-moves. I've been running Drain Punch / Knock Off / Facade / Mach Punch. There are probably better options but it hits pretty much everything. As Jordy stated earlier Mach Punch is really nice right now helping pressure stuff like Kyurem-B, and just proving useful in a variety of situations. Facade is the move I most considered dropping, but the ability to really pressure fairies like Sylveon and Togekiss, if losing their item weren't enough, was to much for me to pass up on. This really just turned into a good mon getting better with home. Also with everything seemingly running Toxic right now, having that hazard sponge comes up useful in a lot of games.

Reading through this thread I have seen some mixed reviews for the party pony, but I am definitely a fan. I haven't used this thing yet, but I have gone up against it with a few different teams and it's scary every time. Combine this thing with Dugtrio (for the pex) or some lure for bulky waters like Mantine and this can be a really solid contributor. Keldeo also has a really solid speed tier this meta that lets it outpace a solid portion of the meta, giving it the option to be a solid scarfer helping check stuff like DD KyuB.

I have gone up against sun a few times. Standard formula I've been seeing is Torkoal + Venusaur + Dugtrio + Fire type (usually Zard or Darm) + 2 fillers. I think it's a pretty interesting style. I don't think it's as good as rain, and definitely needs more testing before anything definitive can be said about it as a style. I'm sure in the near future someone comes up with a "optimal" sun team, and I'm looking forward to seeing it as it's a fun archetype right now that I'll be building/testing this weekend. Earlier this gen I was praising Rotom-H like nobody's business for the same reason I like sun, and that is Fire types are just good in this meta. Scrolling through the VR and in practice I just really like the option to click fire type moves vs a lot of teams (as dumb as a reasoning that may be), and sun provides that.

This thing should be good. Nothing about the gen 8 meta is different enough than SM to make me think this thing will be bad. I guess you could argue the rise of Sylveon which can Hyper Voice a mon behind a sub is a down side. However, Kyurem gaining Freeze Dry and the fact its speed tier is just better this gen are more than enough to offset that. Honestly just waiting for Charmflash or someone to make a really strong team with this thing. I think it'll be good, not busted like its brother
which is just busted. This thing was strong in the past, but throw in decent Ice stab and DRAGON DANCE, and I really don't feel like this thing belongs in OU anymore.

Obligatory post to quick ban this thing. To bulky, to strong, to good. Finch posted a set earlier in the thread that is just a nuisance, and other sets running 3 attacks + Twave are also just not healthy for the meta in my eyes. Wont go into more details since I've seen like 20 posts already repeating whatever I could come up with.

Anyways, that's my 2 cents on some of the new stuff in the meta after about 2 days of laddering. Will probably post again in a couple days after I've had more time to test with sun, as I'd really like to see a fairly solid sun team take shape.
 
You know, I thought the National Dex tiering was slow.
Kyurem-B should have been banned the minute it was discovered to have Dragon Dance, even before release.
Idk what we are even waiting for. If a Meta with Megas, Z-moves, Dynamax (at the time), the old power/speed creep, and more options to check it couldn’t handle it, what makes anyone think the meta without all that can handle it? It’s not like Icium is that much of a lose.
 

TPP

Sincerely
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You know, I thought the National Dex tiering was slow.
Kyurem-B should have been banned the minute it was discovered to have Dragon Dance, even before release.
Idk what we are even waiting for. If a Meta with Megas, Z-moves, Dynamax (at the time), the old power/speed creep, and more options to check it couldn’t handle it, what makes anyone think the meta without all that can handle it? It’s not like Icium is that much of a lose.
Kyurem Black was even more broken because of dynamax. I'll also go ahead and suggest not comparing OU and National Dex OU because the two tiers are extremely different, not to mention how dynamax, a feature that usually lets offensive set up sweepers snowball, was available at the time of Kyurem-Black's banning from National Dex OU.

This is a new metagame with a lot of changes, and no one knows for sure how things will turn out. Just because something looks super good on paper does not mean it doesn't deserve a chance to prove it in practice. The council needs time to see how Kyurem-Black and the other mons perform in this new metagame before coming to a decision. Sometimes it's easy to see how ridiculous some mons can be like Zygarde-100% was in USM, but other times it'll take a few days or even weeks to get a more accurate understanding of how powerful something is. Please give them a little bit more time so they can see if the metagame is capable of adapting to Kyurem-Black, or if Kyurem-Black turns out to be too much to handle.

Thanks for your patience and have a good night.
 
I've been dabbling in the meta for a bit now, especially after Pokemon Home, and I have a few early thoughts about the metagame from my time on ladder.


I have found this to be an exceptionally terrifying combination this gen. Dugtrio is the same threat it was last gen, but it adds even more pressure to opposing team because of the other half of this core: Kyurem-B. I'm not gonna comment on how broken it is because I don't have anything to say that hasn't been said before, but its setup capabities become even more amplified when it has Dug to trap so many of the (few) checks that Kyu-B has.


Togekiss regained Roost and Defog, allowing it to regain a lot of the versatility its had in the past. Nasty Plot sets just got a lot better, and it could even run HDB because of its newfound reliable recovery.


When I first got into SS and saw the new Heavy-Duty Boots item, I instantly thought about Charizard making use of it, but it couldn't very well without Roost or Defog in its arsenal. It has a surprisingly great defensive typing that lets it check common hazard setters like Ferro and Seismitoed and access to Will-o-Wisp.
 
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