Theorymonned some potential sets, as I think crafting sets even prior to addition helps people understand what Pokémon are capable of, since this is a problem many are struggling with atm.
Standard SpD Pivot Sylveon set from UU, now with better bulk, anti Heatran STAB and a lot more walling capabilities! This will probably be Sylveon's chief set, being a great defensive pivot that can pass Wishes to its teammates while not being an overt momentum sink due to its potent offensive capabilities even uninvested. Bulk allows to avoid the 2HKO from Ice Punch Buzzwole after Rocks and comfortably lives two Shadow Balls from Specs Dragapult even if a SpD drop occurs on the first. Dual STAB is important, as Fairy / Ground hits a wide variety of the tier for neutral / SE damage, missing out only on the Steel / Flying types and Rotom-Heat. If status infliction is deathly scary one can opt to drop something for Heal Bell, but it is not recommended.
This set takes advantage of the stellar SE coverage between Sylv's Dual STABs and Mystical Fire and it's natural bulk to force out foes, get up a free Substitute and make progress. Spread ensures it creeps Corviknight and can sub up or just nail it with Mystical Fire, with full SpA investmemt to maximize your damage output, and the rest dumped into bulk to let Sylveon survive as much hits as possible. Sylveon can be used to offensively check a variety of threats like Tapu Koko, Zeraora, Dragapult, Heatran and some variants of Garchomp.
This set focuses on Sylveon's raw power to punch massive holes in opposing forces, primarily with Hyper Voice, while its coverage and secondary STAB nails near all of the Pokémon that resist it, but tbh even resists are taking hardy damage from Hyper Voice. As powerful as it is, the set is perhaps the hardest one to utilize due to how much Sylveon kinda hates locking into moves, but the potential damage output may be worth it.
I REALLY wished we could have given Aero a second move because it really needs it, but alas we have to make due. As for now, it has to make due with spamming 105 Atk no recoil Brave Birds, which is still great. Aero's coverage is there to punch a few holes into switch ins like Corviknight and Heatran with Fire Fang and Earthquake respectively, but in the case of the latter, it can be worn down with Banded Brave Birds. It hits hard but needs a lot of support to break past threats like Toxapex or especially Slowbro. I also did not mention Dragon Dance due to Aero being really frail to try and set it up, while lacking the immediate damage output that makes it threatening in the first place, while also just means it cannot adequately break fatter teams with just 3 moves (No Fire Fang means Corvi can stall out Stone Edge and play mindgames with Body Press, no Earthquake means Toxapex and Melmetal handles it fairly comfortably and no Crunch means Slowbro just blanks it). This combined with its fragility and weakness to every single popular priority option means its effectiveness as a DD sweeper is pretty mediocre and not worth the hassle.
I believed I judged Wishiwashi too harshly. As my good friend earl and others have rightfully pointed out, this Pokémon has the bulk of Toxapex, combined with the potential power of Ash-Greninja, and a very slow U-turn. I think these are grounds for at least a reevaluation of how we see it.
Wishiwashi takes advantage of a rare niche of the tier, a fully specially defensive bulky Water and runs with it. Wishiwashi has the capabilities to comfortably check the likes of Heatran, Blacephalon, Dragapult (very crazy calcs) and Volcarona, while being able to pivot in on various weaker special attackers very comfortably, and then U-turn out as needed. Its not a perfect Pokémon of course, due to the nature of how Schooling works, but a Pure Water type is actually a very valuable asset for teams to have. A PhysDef set can also be ran, as a physically bulky Water that can check both Garchomp AND Weavile in one go is very valuable to have on certain teams. I'd beckon for others to check it out.
Quagsire can remove items if it decides that spreading burns is less valuable for it. Gonna be honest, this is a rather mediocre buff, but I will try to make the most of it. Quagsire does near exactly the same thing it does on standard stall teams, but it can now remove items like Heavy Duty Boots, which could free up a slot on Toxapex to run another move, ig. Nothing radical tbh, and Scald is probably still better than Knock Off, which is quite frankly a waste of a buff if that is the case.
Glastrier operates as a powerful balance breaker thanks to just how stupidly hard Glacial Lance hits at +2 (Adamant 2HKOEs Toxapex after Rocks!!!) The given spread allows it to creep Blissey and hit as hard as possible, with the extra EVs dumped in HP. The alternate spread hits far weaker, but it gets the opportunity to get the jump on Corviknight, which could be useful on specific builds, as even with Jolly Nature Glacial Lance still out damages Adamant Icicle Crash by a very large gap. Glastrier fits on BO and Balance teams that do not mind having such a slow breaker since it matches up very well versus many common defensive Pokémon, but it requires a ton of support in order to fight against more offensive teams due to its exploitable speed tier and defensive typing, exacerbated if you opt to drop Heavy Duty Boots.
Pretty glad I did this, as it has really changed how I view a lot of these submissions. I think my new favs are Sylveon and Wishiwashi, and I'd rank all the subs in general in Sylv, Wishi, Glas, Aero and Quag.
Long post seeya now byeeeeeeeeeeeee
Sylveon @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SpD
Ability: Pixilate
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect / Heal Bell
- Earth Power / Heal Bell
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 68 SpD
Ability: Pixilate
Calm Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect / Heal Bell
- Earth Power / Heal Bell
Sylveon @ Leftovers / Pixie Plate
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Ability: Pixilate
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Earth Power
- Mystical Fire
- Substitute / Calm Mind / Toxic
EVs: 196 HP / 252 SpA / 60 Spe
Ability: Pixilate
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Earth Power
- Mystical Fire
- Substitute / Calm Mind / Toxic
This set takes advantage of the stellar SE coverage between Sylv's Dual STABs and Mystical Fire and it's natural bulk to force out foes, get up a free Substitute and make progress. Spread ensures it creeps Corviknight and can sub up or just nail it with Mystical Fire, with full SpA investmemt to maximize your damage output, and the rest dumped into bulk to let Sylveon survive as much hits as possible. Sylveon can be used to offensively check a variety of threats like Tapu Koko, Zeraora, Dragapult, Heatran and some variants of Garchomp.
Sylveon @ Choice Specs
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Pixilate
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Earth Power
- Mystical Fire
- Shadow Ball / Psyshock
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ability: Pixilate
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Earth Power
- Mystical Fire
- Shadow Ball / Psyshock
Aerodactyl @ Choice Band
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Rock Head
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Rock Head
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
I REALLY wished we could have given Aero a second move because it really needs it, but alas we have to make due. As for now, it has to make due with spamming 105 Atk no recoil Brave Birds, which is still great. Aero's coverage is there to punch a few holes into switch ins like Corviknight and Heatran with Fire Fang and Earthquake respectively, but in the case of the latter, it can be worn down with Banded Brave Birds. It hits hard but needs a lot of support to break past threats like Toxapex or especially Slowbro. I also did not mention Dragon Dance due to Aero being really frail to try and set it up, while lacking the immediate damage output that makes it threatening in the first place, while also just means it cannot adequately break fatter teams with just 3 moves (No Fire Fang means Corvi can stall out Stone Edge and play mindgames with Body Press, no Earthquake means Toxapex and Melmetal handles it fairly comfortably and no Crunch means Slowbro just blanks it). This combined with its fragility and weakness to every single popular priority option means its effectiveness as a DD sweeper is pretty mediocre and not worth the hassle.
I believed I judged Wishiwashi too harshly. As my good friend earl and others have rightfully pointed out, this Pokémon has the bulk of Toxapex, combined with the potential power of Ash-Greninja, and a very slow U-turn. I think these are grounds for at least a reevaluation of how we see it.
Wishiwashi @ Leftovers
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- U-turn
- Scald / Liquidation
- Toxic / Ice Beam / Earthquake
- Recover
Ability: Schooling
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Spe
Sassy Nature
- U-turn
- Scald / Liquidation
- Toxic / Ice Beam / Earthquake
- Recover
Quagsire @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Ability: Unaware
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Scald / Knock Off
- Recover
- Toxic
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Ability: Unaware
Relaxed Nature
- Earthquake
- Scald / Knock Off
- Recover
- Toxic
Quagsire can remove items if it decides that spreading burns is less valuable for it. Gonna be honest, this is a rather mediocre buff, but I will try to make the most of it. Quagsire does near exactly the same thing it does on standard stall teams, but it can now remove items like Heavy Duty Boots, which could free up a slot on Toxapex to run another move, ig. Nothing radical tbh, and Scald is probably still better than Knock Off, which is quite frankly a waste of a buff if that is the case.
Glastrier @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Never Melt Ice / Leftovers
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe OR 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe
Ability: Chilling Neigh
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Glacial Lance
- High Horsepower / Close Combat
- Substitute / Megahorn
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Atk / 204 Spe OR 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Spe
Ability: Chilling Neigh
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Glacial Lance
- High Horsepower / Close Combat
- Substitute / Megahorn
Glastrier operates as a powerful balance breaker thanks to just how stupidly hard Glacial Lance hits at +2 (Adamant 2HKOEs Toxapex after Rocks!!!) The given spread allows it to creep Blissey and hit as hard as possible, with the extra EVs dumped in HP. The alternate spread hits far weaker, but it gets the opportunity to get the jump on Corviknight, which could be useful on specific builds, as even with Jolly Nature Glacial Lance still out damages Adamant Icicle Crash by a very large gap. Glastrier fits on BO and Balance teams that do not mind having such a slow breaker since it matches up very well versus many common defensive Pokémon, but it requires a ton of support in order to fight against more offensive teams due to its exploitable speed tier and defensive typing, exacerbated if you opt to drop Heavy Duty Boots.
Pretty glad I did this, as it has really changed how I view a lot of these submissions. I think my new favs are Sylveon and Wishiwashi, and I'd rank all the subs in general in Sylv, Wishi, Glas, Aero and Quag.
I'd also like to just put this Sylveon slander from Hydreigon to rest, as I genuinely think you are coming from an unfair and biased point of view, and I would like to at least clear the air for people not in Discord who did not see the full debate.
I do not understand the first paragraph at all. AV Torn T is a good set do not get me wrong, but it is nowhere near the main Tornadus T set by a long shot, and pretending that if you face Torn T this is the set you are likely to see is just not true. For Glowking and Air Balloon Heatran, literally any non Specs set beats them quite comfortably (and ofc Specs locked into EP claps even the hardiest of Slowkings), so saying these Pokémon are incapable of being pressured by Sylveon is either a gross exaggeration in the case of Tornadus T, or just blatantly untrue for Glowing and Heatran in the eyes of anyone who is looking at what you are saying for more than 5 seconds. Zeraora can run Toxic sure, but EVERY single Zeraora check is crippled by Toxic, and yet still, nobody is saying do mot run these Pokémon to handle it. Tapu Koko can U-turn into Weavile on every single switch in it has, since Weavile beats every single natural Koko check. Does this mean that Tapu Koko therefore has no counterplay and those Pokémon people have been putting on teams for YEARS are just bad? Ofc not.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 188 Def Sylveon: 128-151 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 39.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You are arguing as if somebody is going to switch in a zero bulk Pokémon without abandon into a 130+ choiced wallbreaker. Nobody plays Pokémon like that. I watched and played against you myself. YOU do not play Pokémon like that. So stop making nonsense arguments that won't ever have context in normal play. Finally, nobody has ever suggested using Sylveon to check Bisharp or Weavile? Obviously if you use Sylveon whike teambuilding you should account for its weaknessness, in which Steel and Ice are prominent.
Gonna be real here, that second paragraph reads as a bunch circular argument gibberish without making any real points. I think you are under the assumption that Sylveon is supposed to be a powerful wallbreaker while being a stellar defensive wall? Which is...a bad way of thinking to say the least. Like Tapu Koko doesn't run boosting items on any viable or notable sets, so how hard do you think Dazzling Gleam is actually hitting? Similar thoughts with Zapdos, as it rarely runs offensive sets outside of Rain, a matchup where Sylveon hard loses to regardless.
So yeah, I just want to just make ut known, you are making bad arguments, have convinced no one on discord that you are right, and have only made a lot of people lose value in what you have to say. Among other things, comparing Sylveon's defensive utility to that of Crawdaunt just tells me you dont actually care. And all of that, because you are salty that your worse Sylveon buff lost? This is the second time you made a smear campaign against a sub because your own buff was skipped by the council. Its not nice, it makes it seem like the submitters and council members are incompetent at what they are doing. If you have genuine issues with a sub, at least look into it with an untargeted lens, as if you do not no one will take you seriously anymore. Just think, if council sat down and thought and decided to skip your sub over the better choice, why do you think yours would fare better? It's done. Get over it.
I do not understand the first paragraph at all. AV Torn T is a good set do not get me wrong, but it is nowhere near the main Tornadus T set by a long shot, and pretending that if you face Torn T this is the set you are likely to see is just not true. For Glowking and Air Balloon Heatran, literally any non Specs set beats them quite comfortably (and ofc Specs locked into EP claps even the hardiest of Slowkings), so saying these Pokémon are incapable of being pressured by Sylveon is either a gross exaggeration in the case of Tornadus T, or just blatantly untrue for Glowing and Heatran in the eyes of anyone who is looking at what you are saying for more than 5 seconds. Zeraora can run Toxic sure, but EVERY single Zeraora check is crippled by Toxic, and yet still, nobody is saying do mot run these Pokémon to handle it. Tapu Koko can U-turn into Weavile on every single switch in it has, since Weavile beats every single natural Koko check. Does this mean that Tapu Koko therefore has no counterplay and those Pokémon people have been putting on teams for YEARS are just bad? Ofc not.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 188 Def Sylveon: 128-151 (32.4 - 38.3%) -- 39.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
You are arguing as if somebody is going to switch in a zero bulk Pokémon without abandon into a 130+ choiced wallbreaker. Nobody plays Pokémon like that. I watched and played against you myself. YOU do not play Pokémon like that. So stop making nonsense arguments that won't ever have context in normal play. Finally, nobody has ever suggested using Sylveon to check Bisharp or Weavile? Obviously if you use Sylveon whike teambuilding you should account for its weaknessness, in which Steel and Ice are prominent.
Gonna be real here, that second paragraph reads as a bunch circular argument gibberish without making any real points. I think you are under the assumption that Sylveon is supposed to be a powerful wallbreaker while being a stellar defensive wall? Which is...a bad way of thinking to say the least. Like Tapu Koko doesn't run boosting items on any viable or notable sets, so how hard do you think Dazzling Gleam is actually hitting? Similar thoughts with Zapdos, as it rarely runs offensive sets outside of Rain, a matchup where Sylveon hard loses to regardless.
So yeah, I just want to just make ut known, you are making bad arguments, have convinced no one on discord that you are right, and have only made a lot of people lose value in what you have to say. Among other things, comparing Sylveon's defensive utility to that of Crawdaunt just tells me you dont actually care. And all of that, because you are salty that your worse Sylveon buff lost? This is the second time you made a smear campaign against a sub because your own buff was skipped by the council. Its not nice, it makes it seem like the submitters and council members are incompetent at what they are doing. If you have genuine issues with a sub, at least look into it with an untargeted lens, as if you do not no one will take you seriously anymore. Just think, if council sat down and thought and decided to skip your sub over the better choice, why do you think yours would fare better? It's done. Get over it.
Long post seeya now byeeeeeeeeeeeee
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+Chlorophyll
Poison/Fire + Poison Jab
+Swift Swim (replaces Keen Eye)
Dragon/Flying + Dual Wingbeat
+ Wonder Guard