I actually agree with this a lot, although a+ is probably fine with me. With gen8 losing out on chansey, a +2 Life Orb Hydreigon kind of just ohkos everything that isn't sylveon and more niche pkmn like umbreon. You can also go with specs for more immediate pressure. It's definitely the strongest corebreaking mon rn, and its speed tier is pretty good in this metagame. Just wouldn't go with S because I still find it somewhat annoying to fit on a couple of teams mainly because of it's lack of immediate recovery this gen(best way mainly being with a couple volt switch/u-turn mons), but it definitely deserves a raise.Hydregion A -> S
The meta's already evolved quite a bit since the G-Darm ban and Hydregion has come out to be a big winner, and imo a centralizing force in the metagame. With a great speed tier, amazing defensive typing, and a movepool that gives it terrifying flexibility, there's almost no reason not to run this thing. Defensively, it's amazing as an offensive check to nearly all of the bulky water types, who never run (or can't run) Ice Beam, as well as checking a host of anti-meta mons that otherwise can break the game. Bisharp, Grimmsnarl, and other setup Sucker Punch users are too slow to hit it with anything else, so if they get chipped down, Hydre can usually finish them off (although Max Spdef BU Grimm will still win). Its one of the few great checks to Reuniclus, whose reliance on Focus Miss can be exploited by Sub+NP or Sub+Roost sets. Hydre is also a complete monster to LO Clefable, Aegislash, Dracovish, Excadrill, Mew, and non-Darts Dragapult - being able to revenge or even set up on these mons is huge because of their propensity to get kills and put you in an awkward position. Hydre is in no way broken, but it is centralizing - it takes all of the loose threads in the meta and forces them back into their corner, with out a doubt one of the best mons available.
Strongly agree with this, Hydreigon should be A+ minimum. Like Kratos mentioned its speed tier is very valuable in this meta which allows it to overwhelm a lot of slow paced teams and also offense alike. Checking it mid late game can be painful seeing as only four mons outpace it in the tier.I actually agree with this a lot, although a+ is probably fine with me. With gen8 losing out on chansey, a +2 Life Orb Hydreigon kind of just ohkos everything that isn't sylveon and more niche pkmn like umbreon. You can also go with specs for more immediate pressure. It's definitely the strongest corebreaking mon rn, and its speed tier is pretty good in this metagame. Just wouldn't go with S because I still find it somewhat annoying to fit on a couple of teams mainly because of it's lack of immediate recovery this gen(best way mainly being with a couple volt switch/u-turn mons), but it definitely deserves a raise.
(citation needed)It also has a great ability in Bulletproof that gives immunity to Clefables Moonblast
No, it does not unless something changed this generation:It also has a great ability in Bulletproof that gives immunity to Clefables Moonblast...
For C+ or something yeah, sure. For A-? Yeah right. I notice in none of those replays Cloyster has to tank special hits, only physical ones. That's because it can't.Nominating Cloyster for A-Rank.
Seriously, Cloyster is my girl right now. How is she not even mentioned in the VR at all, much less not being mentioned at the highest grades? The King's Rock set is indisputably archetypal of HO. With a free turn and one item proc with non-trivial statistical odds, Cloyster single-handedly sweeps any balance team not electing to run Conkeldurr or Aegislash. This strain it puts on teambuilding alone warrants it a spot as one of the premier offensive threats in OU. What's more is that a large portion of the meta invites Cloyster to set up, the worst case scenario against a balance team being that you have 30% odds to get burned and 70% odds to seriously maim their party members. Adamant Cloyster being able to outspeed most relevant Choice Scarfers and Ice Shard OHKO the ones that she doesn't allows her to be a destructive threat against offense teams without needing to give up that hard-hitting nature and balance-destroying item hold. Her natural bulk also is key in navigating offense mirrors in several situations. Did I mention that she either makes setup bait or 1v1s any Corviknight that doesn't run Body Press?
Keeping in line with the replay rule:
edit: fixed minor grammar mistakeshttps://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040134112
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040128434
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038567676
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040714283
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040142060-n7w5bdqqnywnkqw9mm5cg9kgwfps7k4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040135670-igkhkn8cdh15cyp7uv1r5gh3tojrin0pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1041218329-f0bdqtzmyc0ljjudwmvx9icp1zeokrnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1041196131-qmor1xsa5201a6ntxeakwl3ukhfnhuipw
Well, I mean, apart from dying to literally any and every special move, and Adamant Cloyster is outsped by Scarfed Hydreigon,Nominating Cloyster for A-Rank.
Seriously, Cloyster is my girl right now. How is she not even mentioned in the VR at all, much less not being mentioned at the highest grades? The King's Rock set is indisputably archetypal of HO. With a free turn and one item proc with non-trivial statistical odds, Cloyster single-handedly sweeps any balance team not electing to run Conkeldurr or Aegislash. This strain it puts on teambuilding alone warrants it a spot as one of the premier offensive threats in OU. What's more is that a large portion of the meta invites Cloyster to set up, the worst case scenario against a balance team being that you have 30% odds to get burned and 70% odds to seriously maim their party members. Adamant Cloyster being able to outspeed most relevant Choice Scarfers and Ice Shard OHKO the ones that she doesn't allows her to be a destructive threat against offense teams without needing to give up that hard-hitting nature and balance-destroying item hold. Her natural bulk also is key in navigating offense mirrors in several situations. Did I mention that she either makes setup bait or 1v1s any Corviknight that doesn't run Body Press?
Keeping in line with the replay rule:
edit: fixed minor grammar mistakeshttps://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040134112
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040128434
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1038567676
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040714283
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040142060-n7w5bdqqnywnkqw9mm5cg9kgwfps7k4pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1040135670-igkhkn8cdh15cyp7uv1r5gh3tojrin0pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1041218329-f0bdqtzmyc0ljjudwmvx9icp1zeokrnpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1041196131-qmor1xsa5201a6ntxeakwl3ukhfnhuipw
That's because it's illogical to set up on a special attacker. If Cloyster could do that, it'd probably warrant being S Ranked.For C+ or something yeah, sure. For A-? Yeah right. I notice in none of those replays Cloyster has to tank special hits, only physical ones. That's because it can't.
C+ or B- seems like an appropriate place to rank Cloyster to me. On HO teams it can be a very threatening closer. A lot of its checks from previous generations like Magearna, Jirachi, Heatran (if not running a water stab) and other beefy Steel types are now gone, plus it gained access to a much better water stab in Liquidation. Combined with the general slower pace and lower power of the SS meta, Cloyster stands out more than it has since Gen 5.For C+ or something yeah, sure. For A-? Yeah right. I notice in none of those replays Cloyster has to tank special hits, only physical ones. That's because it can't.
0 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 294-348 (121.9 - 144.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Bad)
252 SpA Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 204-241 (84.6 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Who needs specs or coverage)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 184-217 (76.3 - 90%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (No LO, no investment, no problem)
And King's Rock will only help you 41% of the time. Perspective: Togekiss gets Air Slash flinches 60% of the time, and isn't haxxy enough. But Togekiss loses a lot to priority. Guess what Cloyster does:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cloyster: 134-162 (55.6 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 224-266 (92.9 - 110.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Yep. Should it be ranked? I don't see why not. But A-? That is an insult to the 59% of times you don't get the hax. Try more like C something.
Also, last Gen's Cloyster analysis that describes in great detail its many issues. https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/cloyster/ Turns out KR is only recommended for BSS, where hax can win you a 3v3.
So many OP mons that used to beat Cloyster like... Machamp and Raikou. Dexit has not been so bad that a mon sitting at C in RU is suddenly top-tier. The list of things that checked it last gen in RU and whether it still applies:Thanks for the discussion. I'll respond to both points in turn:
1) There are many factors this generation that make Cloyster more viable than C+; it's an accurate characterization of her for generations with national dexes filled with Pokemon that can tank its +2 Shell Smash hits and where there are more viable special attackers and phazers to the point where Cloyster has no room to breathe, but in this generation, there's a dearth of them on mainstream balance and offense builds. There's usually going to be at least one opportunity for Cloyster to set up. See the replays for examples of how an offensive team can force setup bait for Cloyster in; they're all from 1800 range with competent battlers on both sides.
Sure, but it also can't switch in on any mon that might be mixed or even resisted special hits.That's because it's illogical to set up on a special attacker. If Cloyster could do that, it'd probably warrant being S Ranked.
This is the exact same calc he ran but with rocks. A 31% chance is not something to write home about. A 10% KR flinch lol, you may as well run Bright Powder at that point. And sure, if you can play 5v6 for most of the game and get lucky with KR flinches, you win. Leave the noob-bait at home. Cloyster is only for beating teams that don't respect it, hence why it deserves a VR spot to show it can beat unprepared teams. But anyone who actually has a check for it, pray for that less than 50% hax.2) While it's true that Hydreigon outspeeds Cloyster, here's an Ice Shard calc on Scarfed Hydreigon:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is why I mentioned that it either outspeeds most relevant scarfers or kills them. Its priority has great typing for handling its common scarfed checks such as Hydreigon and Dragapult. After one layer of rocks, you have decent chance to kill plus the 10% King's Rock flinch. After two layers of rocks, it's a non-issue, similar to how Scarfed Dragapult dies after a layer. It is more bulky and can pose a bit of a road block, but I don't see it too difficult for an offensive team to force in scarfed Hydreigon at least once prior with rocks up for the kill or for that chance to kill.
Did you just decide to ignore my calcs, even with 180 def, 50 HP is just mediore at best, and dies to basically all SE hits, and dreigon has guaranteed chance to kill after rocks.Thanks for the discussion. I'll respond to both points in turn:
1) There are many factors this generation that make Cloyster more viable than C+; it's an accurate characterization of her for generations with national dexes filled with Pokemon that can tank its +2 Shell Smash hits and where there are more viable special attackers and phazers to the point where Cloyster has no room to breathe, but in this generation, there's a dearth of them on mainstream balance and offense builds. There's usually going to be at least one opportunity for Cloyster to set up. See the replays for examples of how an offensive team can force setup bait for Cloyster in; they're all from 1800 range with competent battlers on both sides.
That's because it's illogical to set up on a special attacker. If Cloyster could do that, it'd probably warrant being S Ranked.
2) While it's true that Hydreigon outspeeds Cloyster, here's an Ice Shard calc on Scarfed Hydreigon:
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is why I mentioned that it either outspeeds most relevant scarfers or kills them. Its priority has great typing for handling its common scarfed checks such as Hydreigon and Dragapult. After one layer of rocks, you have decent chance to kill plus the 10% King's Rock flinch. After two layers of rocks, it's a non-issue, similar to how Scarfed Dragapult dies after a layer. It is more bulky and can pose a bit of a road block, but I don't see it too difficult for an offensive team to force in scarfed Hydreigon at least once prior with rocks up for the kill or for that chance to kill.
I didn't respond to the fighting priority calcs because it is a valid point; fighting priority does revenge Cloyster quite effectively. It should not be ignored, though, that Cloyster is one of the main reasons why Balance is/should be starting to run fighting priority, and the fact that it warps teambuilding to that degree is proof of its competitive pedigree this gen.Did you just decide to ignore my calcs, even with 180 def, 50 HP is just mediore at best, and dies to basically all SE hits, and dreigon has guaranteed chance to kill after rocks.
Unfortunately, in this case, Cloyster's weaknesses outweight it's strengths too much to be in A-, or even B.I didn't respond to the fighting priority calcs because it is a valid point; fighting priority does revenge Cloyster quite effectively. It should not be ignored, though, that Cloyster is one of the main reasons why Balance is/should be starting to run fighting priority, and the fact that it warps teambuilding to that degree is proof of its competitive pedigree this gen.
Every other thing listed (i.e. weak to Special attacks) are obvious weaknesses of Cloyster, and I did consider them before nominating the Pokemon; I believe they're not consequential enough to drag it down. Corviknight cannot Bulk Up on Rotom, but its strengths outweigh its weaknesses in the metagame; the same, I believe, holds true for Cloyster.
I was referring to the only viable priority.Robot, you misinterpret "forcing balance to run fighting priority" as "forcing Fighting-type Pokemon to run fighting priority." If I responded to the rest, this argument would be circular.
So many OP mons that used to beat Cloyster like... Machamp and Raikou. Dexit has not been so bad that a mon sitting at C in RU is suddenly top-tier.
Have you forgotten that Ferro is part-Grass?while Corv is part Flying, it beats it anyway with Body Press, Ferro walls you to hell, Exadrill can Iron Head it and 30% of the time Flinch you to boot, Bisharp uses you as setup bait... Could be worse to be fair.
+2 Cloyster outspeeds Rotom-Mand Rotom-M who's really nice RN and usually scarfed.
Grimmsnarl is the only one here that's really relevant. Corv and Mandi get outsped by Cloyster, Hydreigon never runs Taunt, and to my knowledge neither do Cinderace or Obstagoon (also, Cinderace lose 1v1 anyway).Corv, Goon, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon too. Cinderace, Grimmsnarl, etc.
Buddy, if you think Cloyster, a pokemon with 3.6% usage, is one of the main reasons Conk runs Mach Punch, as opposed to Hydreigon or Bisharp or Obstagoon, I don't know what to tell you.I didn't respond to the fighting priority calcs because it is a valid point; fighting priority does revenge Cloyster quite effectively. It should not be ignored, though, that Cloyster is one of the main reasons why Balance is/should be starting to run fighting priority, and the fact that it warps teambuilding to that degree is proof of its competitive pedigree this gen.
I didnt really know ppl ran non np 3 attacks lmao bc I only run np 3 attacks and mandibuzz is ko'd every game. people go to it and I’m like ?? +2 Draco bitch fuck you thought was happening. when that happens to me I just switch out bc I’m a god tier mandibuzz player but like the sets ppl running that are meant to take hits from hydre are a jokeA+ ---> A: I'm not gonna go full Omari and call this mon ass but it's definitely not A+ anymore. Its main niche rn is the fact that it gets Defog and Corviknight isn't something that can fit on virtually every team (although sometimes it feels that way). It's a shoddy Ghost resist in a meta plagued by Ghosts that can pressure it someway or another. The only Ghost I feel comfortable switching into is Pult because more often than not they'll just spam U-turn anyway. It's also not really the greatest Hydreigon answer anymore either because more people are starting to run Nasty 3 Attacks, so it's not very consistent. It's also major Conk bait which sucks pretty bad because fuck letting that thing in for free. It's a good Defogger and can still be a pain to deal with but it's very hard to justify it being the same rank as Clef/Rotom/Toad imo.