SS Random Battle Suspect Process - Dynamax

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I'm in favour of banning Dynamax. However, not a racist brought up a great point which is that if Dynamax is banned in Random Singles, I don't believe this means it should also be banned in Random Doubles. Dynamax was clearly created with double battles in mind, and it's entirely balanced in RanDubs. However, it over-simplifies gameplay in singles way too much and makes playing the games unfun. Finally, I think it'd be unfair to the RanDubs community to have a mechanic banned from their game because of a suspect test that didn't occur on their ladder. I think it's important to have clarification over whether this suspect test affects both singles and doubles. I don't think it would change the outcome (those who want it banned in singles would likely take the hit to doubles as collateral damage) but I do think it's much preferable to suspect test the two formats individually.
The result of this suspect test only affects singles, i.e. Random Battle and Monotype Random Battle. There will likely be internal discussion between staff, and not a separate suspect test, about how to proceed with Random Doubles.
 

Josh

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Hello, I have been 2000+ elo in randbats for several generations and its the only form of Pokemon I play nowadays as it kills time. I am VERY strongly against banning Dynamax. I will be brief in this post as I don't think any of these points need deep explanations.

1) It is banned in all singles Smogon tiers, sure. I think it is actually nice to have random battles preserve the mechanic for the I'm sure many "casuals" that want to play with the core mechanic of the generation.

2) From experience, I do not find it a remotely broken mechanic in random battles. I could substantiate this with a lot of useless worlds, but I believe anybody who regularly plays randbats will agree. I actually enjoy the strategic diversity it offers, and the fact every Pokemon can use it is a good thing. It is not like Z-stones where you would need to just hope you got lucky and the opponent would or wouldn't have it, you know every Pokemon could use it and you can prepare accordingly.

3) It is a slightly swingy mechanic, sure. I don't think that's a problem? This is random battles, it is always going to be swingy. Dynamax is almost always a viable defensive measure against Dynamax as well.

4) Unlike Smogon metagames, the previous generation random battle ladders are pretty active. If people don't want to play with Dynamax, they can go play ORAS, or SuMo, or older generations for a comparable experience. This is always an option!

I think removing the core mechanic of a generation in random battles is awful. I understand why tiers did it. I think it would be tremendously bad if we followed suit.
 
Guys i didn't got the enought requiriments but i've played a good number of gen8 random tours, you say that dyna is broken and but you don't understand that some mons aren't so easily to counter such as some calm mind users or belly drum user users, with dyna banned its almost impossible to win these battles once they started with that move and just you can't do anything bc they got insanely boosted; in these cases dynas can help a lot to try to stop them bc you get resistance. Also u can waste dyna turns with subs and recovering moves(which in this gen became so annoying), btw i didn't apreciated too many dyna sweeps it does but isn't too frequently as one would think, just makes players to move a stacked battle. You won't see when dynas will or not comes yeah, but u have to prevent them.
Also removing dynas, you'll be erasing something that diferences gen8 from other gens, and the only good thing that gen8 has are the dynas, without that it'd look like a incomplete sequel version to gen7 and will lose its identity and that's something that's very sad, bc this gen wanted to introduce something new, it won't be for the liking of all but at least is not repetitive(that makes gen6 randoms so lame bc got nothing different from gen7 just some new mons and moves).
Before banning or not dyna allwyas remeber that dynas are the center of gen8 and it'll be so sad to know that a mechanic'll be banned.
 

Deleted User 276886

Banned deucer.
Also removing dynas, you'll be erasing something that diferences gen8 from other gens, and the only good thing that gen8 has are the dynas, without that it'd look like a incomplete sequel version to gen7 and will lose its identity and that's something that's very sad, bc this gen wanted to introduce something new, it won't be for the liking of all but at least is not repetitive(that makes gen6 randoms so lame bc got nothing different from gen7 just some new mons and moves).
Before banning or not dyna allwyas remeber that dynas are the center of gen8 and it'll be so sad to know that a mechanic'll be banned.
Having a gimmick for the sake of having a gimmick is nonsense, what's the point of keeping Dynamax around just so that you can differenciate Gen8 Random Battles from Gen7 Random Battles? With every Generation we get some changes, and we play along because that's the way Pokémon is headed. A mechanic as strong as Dynamax shouldn't stay just because it's the mechanic of Gen8.

Everyone knows Dynamax is busted, but Randbats was never balanced either. Keeping in something as unbalanced as Dynamax only worsens the problem of Randbats being unbalanced. That means you need more luck than skill to win, and I can't agree with that, even if this is Random Battles.
 
cloudiness opinion: Keep Dynamax.

It would be nothing but inconsistency to remove Dynamax. We have literally been dealing with Megas and Z-Moves in the past generations. People complained about those, but they never got banned. Every generation, it is traditional for us to use the mechanics introduced to us just as it is traditional for Game Freak to introduce them every gen.

Every generation, we adapt to a whole new system with a massive influx of new pokemon, various different mechanics, and an overall battling atmosphere. This is the main reason I want to keep Dynamax, it would be untraditional to expel it from Randoms.

Of course, I don't believe it is "broken", as that depends on how you utilize it. From experience, it requires nothing more than experience, time, and patience to master it. Yes, it may take a month or two like it did for me, but now I've completely adapted to it. Dynamax is basically fighting fire with fire because it's often the situation where you Dynamax one of your own pokemon to be able to compete with an opposing Dynamaxed threat. The odds won't always be in your favour, but so what? Welcome to Randoms.

All in all: Cope with each new tradition the game offers us, otherwise, consistency will be diminished!

#SaveDynamax.
 
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Deleted User 276886

Banned deucer.
:thinking:
The statements are not contradicting one another. Yes, we get new mechanics with every gen, and for Gen8, they gave us Dynamaxing, but we shouldn't have to learn how to live with it making the game unenjoybale (being banned in every other singles tier for being too strong) just because it's the core mechanic of that generation.
 
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I've fluctuated between rank 1700 and 2050 for the last few months. I currently have a bunch of replays saved on my showdown account of matches vs similarly ranked players where I got a good dynamax mon early on (aka any pokemon with a boosting move), dynamaxed almost immediately and won the match with no counterplay. Dynamax is dumb and compounds upon the already prevalent issue in randbats of pokemon that can generate a lot of momentum in one turn (shell smashers, belly drummers, etc) being auto-wins and giving that power to even more pokemon to create a situation where whoever can switch in their dynamax sweeper first wins. You know how sometimes in gen 7 you just get hit with a turn 1 slurpuff and insta-lose? It's like that but now dozens of other pokemon can do the exact same thing. It's reductive, uncompetitive and utterly unfun to play. I'd say it's even less balanced than in OU, because in OU you could at least build your team with a dynamax counter on purpose like Ditto. Dynamax needs to be banned.
 
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Considering what Spyaro said, I don't think we are in any way "obligated" to keep whatever gamefreak throws at us, that would be like not banning Shadow Tag because trapping abilities were a "new mechanic"; that is the beauty of smogon. We are not trying to play pokemon in the most "pokemon" way, but in the most fun way. And I don't think dynamaxing is fun, for three reasons:

1) The "auto-win" issue. I am not even going to post a replay here because anyone who has played any gen8 random battles has experienced a dynamaxed nasty plot Togekiss or sd Sirfetched auto-winning the game by clicking the setup move and then dynamaxing. Shell smashers and belly drummers are already polarizing but now any pokemon with a boosting move and a flying move can easily be just as oppressive.

2) Certain real movesets are completely invalidated in a dynamax meta: Encore Liepard, Trick Gothitelle etc. who would otherwise keep the dangerous belly drummers and shell smashers in check now do effectively nothing (unless the opponent has already dynamaxed, but if that's the case they are usually going to have an already set up sweeper). There is nothing wrong if a pokemon (such as aroma veil Alcremie) completely invalidates a certain moveset (like encore Liepard), but now every pokemon has the capability to do so.
Dynamaxed pokemon are also for some reason immune to weight-based moves which doesn't make sense to me and creates unnatural scenarios like regirock beating zeraora because grass knot just fails.

3) Counterplay to dynamax is stale. Because move-scouting, the standard and challenging way to play against sweepers doesn't work against dynamaxed opponents, the three options are to either keep pivoting pokemon and hope the opponent will lose the mind game of which move to click three times in a row (which is possible, but unlikely), to dynamax in return, which usually ends up in an exchange of max guards, or to already have a good defensive pokemon and click a recovery move three times in a row. That means that with optimal play and good team rng all dynamax does it prolong the battle, while otherwise is just creates unbalanced situations and auto-wins.

Lastly, I don't see why dynamax should be banned in every format apart from random battles. The main argument is that other formats allow you to build your team around a dynamax sweeper, but the whole issue of dynamax is that it doesn't need team support, a singular setup sweeper with a flying move is enough. Instead, in other formats, you can at least use counterplay strategies (like regenerator teams, ditto), what I'm saying is dynamax counterplay requires more intelligent teambuilding then dynamax play.
So if even formats where you can specifically counter dynamax with pokemon such as ditto banned dynamax, then random battles, where counter options are random, should ban it too.

Edit:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1090170340
 
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All the match is extremely influenced by Dynamax. You are in constant worry about when will the other player Dynamax and he plays the same way. This isn't healthy. You always have to restrict your thinking. The fact you need to worry at times "ok will I kill this or will he dyna" is stupid. You cannot make a reliable game plan. You need to save it to use it at the perfect time but maybe save it to counter HIS dyna and this is hard and forcing you to play in weird ways.
I think you're framing this as a pro-ban argument, but it reads as VERY pro-save. "Restrict" is the wrong word for what you're describing here. Dynamax here is adding an extra dimension to the game that requires more thinking and more ways for the game to play out. Without dynamax, turns become highly predictable. The mind games you describe here are an extra element to the game that adds intrigue and high level play. I don't think anything you've put forward in this paragraph indicates that dynamax should be banned.
 

duck

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I think you're framing this as a pro-ban argument, but it reads as VERY pro-save. "Restrict" is the wrong word for what you're describing here. Dynamax here is adding an extra dimension to the game that requires more thinking and more ways for the game to play out. Without dynamax, turns become highly predictable. The mind games you describe here are an extra element to the game that adds intrigue and high level play. I don't think anything you've put forward in this paragraph indicates that dynamax should be banned.
Anything that restrict the playstile and change they way you would normally play because you are in constant fear of dynamax isn't healthy. Also the randombattle meta is already very unpredictable with the no team preview, so this isn't necessary.
 
As disgusting dynamax is in general, I don't think it should be banned in random battles at all. Before I get into the details, its probably better to lower the gxe requirements. Now i've already got reqs myself, but requiring a high skill ceiling is kinda useless here cuz the battles r rather luck based anyway. Plus, the format is mostly intended for fun unlike the official tiers and serves no real competitive value so i don't see why its impossible to let as many people vote as possible.

Now for the facts
1. It doesn't need to be competitive.
Yes, dynamax is unbalanced af. But like....this is the random battle. It doesn't have any important tournaments like spl, it has no strategy forum, heck even stuff like volcarona and garchomp are in. Its just a relaxing format, where you just sit in yr toilet pressing buttons, hoping the opponent doesn't pack dumb shit. Occasionally, you get 6-0ed by a slurpuff, get slapped by the last mon despite having 3 mons remaining or as usual, get haxed. It was a problem even back in gen 7 and nth rly has changed. Dmax is just another element of the game adding more possibilites. In fact, i think dmax has its own competitive values cuz its unpredictable nature allows one to have a chance against opponents otherwise unbeatable.

In one of my req runs, i had my opponent packing a cinderace against ass vest goodra, galvantula, terrakion, metagross, escavalier and type null. With a lead matchup galvantula vs cinderace to boot. Can't set up sticky web either cuz cindy could have the court change. But dmax means that the whole match, i had the chance to target cinderace an otherwise ridiculous threat,finally managing to nail down the damn bunny with dmax terrakion and win the game.

In normal conditions, this will be dumb af cuz its impossible for the opponent to predict correctly every turn...but this is rand bats. He was lucky to have a beast that can nearly auto win but dmax allows me to close the gap. Of course, it also means weaker players can beat more skilled players, but shit like slurpuff and linnone already does that anyway. Random battle's nature means everyone can win so i don't rly see how dmax changes anything.

2. Dmax's counterplay is underrated.
Most of the time i've never actually been swept by dmax straight on. Of course exceptions like kommo o, hawlucha,corviknight and braviary exist but usually, i find the one who dmaxes first loses. Not everyone has max knuckle and max airstream (max ooze sucks...if you get swept by gmax gengar, you probably already lose to np gengar anyway), so most of the time you can play around the three turns between type resists and yr own dmax (think max wyrmwind, max flutterby, max guard, max strike, even stuff like max weather moves according to the sweeper). Even knuckle is overrated cuz its weak and only fast sweepers can rly abuse it. Airstream certainly won't give them the power to finish the game. Now, as i mentioned exceptions do exist but just like the times when dmax blastoise wiped yr ass, there r also times when dmax saved you from +6 linnone. Not to mention how nth was done about stuff like geo xern and slurpuff last gen so i don't see how this is an issue? The only problem is that its unpredictable but so is yr opponents team.

I'm sorry to have singled out yr replay but in this match, i think the opponent should never have lost this badly. First of all, nasty plotting in front of a threat that can sweep yr team is questionable play at best. But i guess it can happen, the opponent probably thought you wouldn't hqve dmaxed early on. Then he makes another questionable play, not dmaxing his corviknight? Even if he was worried air stream wouldn't ko, just max guard and ko the next turn lol. then according to yr team and his moveset, it could've have punished you for dmaxing early. There were also other options like type resists, intimidate and lo recoil to work with but nope he sacs everything. Tldr sirfetch shouldn't have soloed this match

3. Its not the only thing broken.
Random battles already have so many fking broken shit, slurpuff, linnone, cinderace, polteageist,marshadow, hooh, ditto, shell smashers and with natdex, its only going to get worse. I want to give special mention to zacian-c that bitch almost means an auto win. The problem with zacian-c is that swords dance just kinda happens to ohko a dumb amount of stuff and unlike in ubers, you can't choose to pack one of the like three counters to it. The battles i do lose with zacian-c, i just regret failing to send it out earlier lmao.

4.Dmax provides defensive counterplay.
Ppl often say dmax makes good matchups better and bad matchups worse but this can't be more wrong in rand bats cuz it can prevent you losses against dumb stuff. I don't get how defensive dmax is unviable cuz not only can you reactively dmax, you can also dmax first and catch the opponent off guard, often times preventing a sweep. If he has a second broken mon after that, then you probably already lose in the first place lol.

Overall, dmax is no more random than other broken stuff in this format so dmax should be preserved#
 
Is this supposed to prove dynamaxing is broken? If the gengar player had any brains at all he should have dynamaxed.

This is like saying fire type moves are broken because you left in your Durant against their Charizard and Fire Blast OHKO'd you. Or spikes are broken because you let your opponent set up all 3 layers and now you get 25% damage on each switch in.
 
Do not ban Dynamax from randoms.

I've been consistently playing randoms almost everyday for the last few years (even though I was never active here in the forum), and if you play randoms you probably ran into me (Umbra Mask) sometime.

It was never about being super balanced, and, as many pointed out, sometimes you just have a big disadvantage with your team. However, what Dynamax in randoms offers is diversity. That Farfetch'd with swords dance suddenly can sweep your entire team thanks to speed boosts from Max Airstream. Yeah, that +1 atk +1 speed moxie Gyarados can sweep your team with dynamax, but dynamaxing your own mon can also stop it from sweeping.

My honest opinion is not only that Dynamax should not be banned from randoms (which is a place for fun, even though it can be competitive), it should not be banned from standard gameplay, because Dynamax counters Dynamax itself.
 
In my opinion dynamax should be banned in the regular ranbat. In previous gens i was in tier points around 1800 (untill i lost a lot and ended at 1500 and stopped playing untill gen 8 came out). but with gen 8 im fluctuating around 1400. I do think it can be a fun mechanic, but using it makes most of the battles one sided. I read all the comments before me and think most of them have a fair point. but why i think dynamx should be banned:

1. Most people would say it brings more diversity to the battle, but i would argue it brings less diversity to the ranbat. In my opinion you are more likely to dmax certain pokemon over others. you would never dmax a pokemon like roserade, who most of the time only has 1 attacking move, but sometimes you have to just to have Max Guard. This brings it more to a stall game, rather than action filled. Added to that, players are more likely to dmax a gyarados now, or a togekiss because of Max Airstream, while a pokemon like hippowdon who mostly just has max quake, would be useless to dmax.

2. It makes the game more one sided than it already is. In ranbat there is always the thing of luck with the pokemon you get. If you have a team in which everyone is weak to fairy, a scarf xerneas will reck your team. If a whole team is weak to one pokemon, dmaxing will make sure that pokemon is never getting killed. The resulst of the game are more likely to be 6-0 than in the other generations. Moreover, setting up pokemon like bellosom or Ddance gyarados can switch in on a pokemon that cant effect it, or rarely, can set up in the turn they 'have' to switch pokemon and dmax in the next turn and sweep afterwards

3. It makes certain pokemon and items useless for both user and defender. A move like encore was made useless since Dmax. you think you trapped a pokemon, but encore suddenly is useless. This makes pokemon like wobbufett kind of useless and not worthy of it's original 'glory' or the pain in the ass. The same goes for the choice items. Normally the choice items were a good way to limit certain pokemon, but after dmax, the effect certainly wear of, but the limitation it had and you counted on also got taken rid of. This adds up to a lot of legendaries and mythicals having choice items too. This limited a lot of them, making the game more balanced if you yourself didnt have one, but now they get buffed because of the stat boosts of the dmax moves, and have no limitations.\

Ofc i would probably still play if it werent banned, but i suggest making it an option. Either do randbat with or without dmax. I love a lot of gen 8 moves, pokemon, items etc, so i dont wanna go back to gen 7, but i suggest making it an option. Love the game, and wish you all good luck and a good day
 
Considering what Spyaro said, I don't think we are in any way "obligated" to keep whatever gamefreak throws at us, that would be like not banning Shadow Tag because trapping abilities were a "new mechanic"; that is the beauty of smogon. We are not trying to play pokemon in the most "pokemon" way, but in the most fun way. And I don't think dynamaxing is fun, for three reasons:

1) The "auto-win" issue. I am not even going to post a replay here because anyone who has played any gen8 random battles has experienced a dynamaxed nasty plot Togekiss or sd Sirfetched auto-winning the game by clicking the setup move and then dynamaxing. Shell smashers and belly drummers are already polarizing but now any pokemon with a boosting move and a flying move can easily be just as oppressive.

2) Certain real movesets are completely invalidated in a dynamax meta: Encore Liepard, Trick Gothitelle etc. who would otherwise keep the dangerous belly drummers and shell smashers in check now do effectively nothing (unless the opponent has already dynamaxed, but if that's the case they are usually going to have an already set up sweeper). There is nothing wrong if a pokemon (such as aroma veil Alcremie) completely invalidates a certain moveset (like encore Liepard), but now every pokemon has the capability to do so.
Dynamaxed pokemon are also for some reason immune to weight-based moves which doesn't make sense to me and creates unnatural scenarios like regirock beating zeraora because grass knot just fails.

3) Counterplay to dynamax is stale. Because move-scouting, the standard and challenging way to play against sweepers doesn't work against dynamaxed opponents, the three options are to either keep pivoting pokemon and hope the opponent will lose the mind game of which move to click three times in a row (which is possible, but unlikely), to dynamax in return, which usually ends up in an exchange of max guards, or to already have a good defensive pokemon and click a recovery move three times in a row. That means that with optimal play and good team rng all dynamax does it prolong the battle, while otherwise is just creates unbalanced situations and auto-wins.

Lastly, I don't see why dynamax should be banned in every format apart from random battles. The main argument is that other formats allow you to build your team around a dynamax sweeper, but the whole issue of dynamax is that it doesn't need team support, a singular setup sweeper with a flying move is enough. Instead, in other formats, you can at least use counterplay strategies (like regenerator teams, ditto), what I'm saying is dynamax counterplay requires more intelligent teambuilding then dynamax play.
So if even formats where you can specifically counter dynamax with pokemon such as ditto banned dynamax, then random battles, where counter options are random, should ban it too.

Edit:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1090170340
To be quite honest, it is generally difficult to view the bright side of a mechanic that people deem in their own terms "broken". I think the greatest factor about the benefits of Dynamax is how it gives light to mons that otherwise already really suck at the game. Farfetch'd, Noctowl, Decidueye, and so much more are now recognized as more significant threats due to their ability to simultaneously boost their speed and offenses in the game. They really needed this buff and I'm really glad that I can count on mons that were once fodder to actually bring the game back.

Dynamax brought so much life to the format - otherwise we'd be stuck with a bland format even with the massive influx of new pokemon, available moves, and game-changing items. Dynamax is a strategy-inducing element in the game that players now have to carefully consider. So many methods can be utilized around how it can summon terrain, weather, and cause stat changes and / or boosts.

As I said before, it requires adaptation and patience. If you still don't like it, so what? Take your time with it until you get used to it. Begin by considering what Pokemon has the greatest Dynamax potential and build from there. It's not that hard if you're willing to give it time and consideration.
 
oi I'm definetely an active gen8rands player and randbats user (I use the alt Chiori Mikami), thought I'd share why I think Dyna should stay
Dynamax has made random battles less fun for me. I am more of a casual randbats player, with my peaks in the low 2000s. However, gen 8 random battles have been significantly less fun than their counterparts in other generations. The game frequently just ends the second a mon boosts--before, shell smash/DD/SD etc. were threats, but not game ending ones. The pace the format takes with dynamax is one that is unfun for me.
While I can see what you mean, this was often the case in gen7rands too, ex:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...kemonshowdown.com/gen7randombattle-988109909; where you can see the game was extremely MU reliant, Now thanks to dynamax most games are winnable for both sides, sweepers like slurpuff, linoone can be taken of a lot more easily thanks to dyna (most steel-types can dyna and, if it already set up, kill even after it dynamaxes), even strong dyna sweepers like zekrom, ARE NOT UNWINNABLE MUs, mons like runerigus or quag live and wow/recover, if you dont have a counter you can try to outplay their dyna and dyna yourself, this usually takes only a sac of one mon that cant be ohkoed and a max guard, which is fair... since without dynamax you wouldnt have had any option at all.

Remember, this is Random battles. Random. As in, one game you can get a bunch of PU and under shitmons and the next get 3 Ubers. In theory Dynamax is more balanced here because there's no guarantee anyone will get a crazy sweeper, but at the same time, there's no guarantee anyone won't. There's no way of knowing ahead of time, there's no real counterplay to it other than dealing with the Dynamax Kyurem you or your opponent now has. There's no indication that you or your opponent could be be saving their Dynamax a certain mon, because anyone could Dynamax any mon, and only they know what they have until they switch it in. There's just too much inconsistency adding this mechanic in an environment already designed from the ground up to be inconsistent.
Dynamax isnt more balanced because "there's no guarantee anyone will get a crazy sweeper", but it's more balanced exactly because it lets you deal with crazy sweepers, I got no idea what "there's no real counterplay to it other than dealing with the Dynamax Kyurem you or your opponent now has" means? there's no counterplay to a mon other than dealing with it, uhh ok? "There's no indication that you or your opponent could be be saving their Dynamax a certain mon, because anyone could Dynamax any mon, and only they know what they have until they switch it in" while this is true, is this truly bad? I honestly like dynamax because games aren't actually over until you send your last mon, if you managed to save your wincon and get in a position to win, that was just a good play which rewarded you.

Ban for me.
It's not fun set up and kill all teams
I find it fun :(

It's almost as if pokemon of different tiers have different levels in randbats for a reason. If you played in generation 7 randbats, you would remember how the most dangerous threats weren't Ubers, they were Linoone, Sigilyph, Swellow. All absolutely horrible pokemon to play on OU. Dynamax made it so instead of having a bunch of potentially good pokemon to get on your team, you have 5% of them being good (any sweeper with a flying/fighting move and potential to abuse it's own weather), and 95% of garbage. In fact, Dynamax only makes good pokemon better, and bad pokemon worse. It has no real counterplay and just removes all the variety there is in the mode.
Just saying, not being able to abuse dyna doesnt make a mon trash, Linoone is a good sweeper, worse than last gen where it could often just win alone, but still good since it can make the opp waste dyna and often even get a kill, Sigyliph an amazing wallbreaker and it doesnt even dislike max airstream. The only pokémon I'd say they suffered from dyna are ubers like melm and zama(both normal and crowned), since the level adjustement from good uber dyna abusers made them subpar. Still nate said in rands room that if dyna doesnt get banned then levels are gonna be adjusted to the dynamax potential which would solve the problem.

I don't necessarily mind Dynamax buffing stats/moves, but I have two main problems with it.

1. Makes it far too easy for safe set-up mons to sweep.
Due to moves like Max Airstream buffing speed, or Max Knuckle/Max Ooze buffing attacking stats, any tanky pokemon can pretty much become a set-up sweeper in 3 turns. While normally there are counterplays to set-up sweepers, even bulky ones, dynamax gets around those which leads me to my second point...

2. Dynamax overrides all of the natural counterplay options to sweepers/other dangerous offensive mons.
Normally, you could stop a set up sweeper by encore-locking them, taunting them to stop them from setting-up further, or phazing them with roar or whirlwind. Choice band/specs give many offensive pokemon terrifying power levels, but the natural counterplay is to either predict correctly and swap in something that resists/is immune to the incoming choice-attack, or to sacrifice something and then swap in something else that can deal with it. Since Dynamax gives you 3 turns of being free from choice lock, it gives these mons the ability to switch to boosted-up coverage options to easily deal with their checks, before going back to spamming choice-boosted attacks to blow holes in your team which lost its primary counterplay option.

Overall opinion: ban
I do agree with you here, I can see why the boosting moves can be overwhelming and dyna did make wob unable to trap any mon with a setup move, still I think being able to last just 3 turns makes it great, but bearable, I'd be alright paying this price in order to make mu in rands less decisive, Dynamaxing choice users can often be dealt with without dynamaxing thanks to the loss of 1.5x power, wob may not be as good as last gen, but it still is really effective against choice users, Zamazenta or to trigger the dyna if you have ditto/quag/pyuk

Dynamax turns every randbat game into the same thing- some kind of setup sweeper that overpowers the enemy's team. Just like it did to OU. Just like it does to VGC. Dynamax is a mechanic designed to just overpower the battle and end it. And that's what happens in Randbats currently.

I miss a Randbats where some games were setup, some games were balance, some were defensive, but there was VARIANCE. When Dynamax exists, it's no fun. I'd like to see the statistics on how popular randbats is compared to how it was, vs. how Smogon has grown altogether. Is it relatively less popular? Because most of the people I know have stopped playing it, mostly due to Dynamax.

Slightly off-topic, but I would also love to see natdex Randbats, because I agree that current Randbats feels somewhat watered down.
If Dynamax gets banned I'd argue set-up sweepers like cloyster, Polteageist, Slurpuff and Linoone are just gonna become a lot better since dyna is pretty much what often keeps em in check. I honestly think the game is a lot more complex and funny with dyna, but that's probably a taste thing so nothing I can say there.

I haven't qualified for the suspect test yet, but I would like to bring something up. With how random battles are, you can have situations where it's mostly low tier pokemon against ubers. Normally this is already difficult to combat, especially considering many uber sets are sweepers or just incredibly powerful, but with dynamax you have no chance. Even 1 uber can destroy you.
I have a battle from a few weeks ago, the replay long lost, where I had a team of mostly low tiers. My opponent was making many poor plays and I was winning 4-2. I fainted their second to last pokemon and a zekrom sweeper set came out. Now, I had nothing against it. The few hopes of defeating it were quickly crushed with the possibility of the zekrom dynamaxing. The zekrom set up d-dances and subs, and then dynamaxed. And even a dynamax of my own couldn't live just one hit. Obviously it won, and I could not help but think of how unfair that was. I was destroying my opponent who had better pokemon than me, and I would have even stood a chance against that zekrom if not for dynamax. I made all the best possible plays I could in that situation yet I stood no chance. Facing ubers in random is already frustrating enough, but dynamax ubers make me want to not even bother.
If I can get up to a qualifying position, I will most certainly vote ban.
Unfort that's just randbats being randbats, still without knowing your mons and without having the replay I literally can't say anything, I'd it's odd since you still had dyna too, but again I got no idea what your mons were so :|

Going back to the Top player vs ladder opponent, let's say there is a top randbats player who has memorized most if not all of the sets every mon can run. That doesn't always translate to them being able to deal with Dynamax. This applies to Tiers but I would almost say this especially applies here given the tools you and your opponent have are completely out of your control. This inherent element of not knowing (possibly until it's too late) removes a lot of the possible positional counter play and defensive counter play with you sometimes just having a bunch of awful mons. Random battles is always inconsistent but Dynamax just amplifies it way too much in my opinion.
For the first point, it's literally not an argument to ban dynamax, you can ban it and the better player can still lose against the worse one, that's rands for you... thing is Dynamax makes it so that the better player has a better chance to win, Being able to Dynamax means that even if the worse player has a mon which is supposed to 6-0, You can still dyna n take it out giving you an actual shot at winning the game.
Your argument for banning dynamax is pretty much an argument for keeping it

As a player who has been playing randbats daily for the last 5 years and fluctuating between top 500 and top 10 my personal experience of this gen's randbats is between bad and horrible. Whoever gets a hard set up mon with dynamax available wins the match 90% of the time, Cloyster, barbaracle, blastoise, mewtwo, weavile, slurpuff, gengar and basically any mon with a +2 set up and a flying move. Having an enemy down 4v1 or him having me 4v1 and the last mon being a set up+ dyna to easily sweep has been so frequent that takes the fun away of the game and leaves a bad taste ( this has always been an issue but it was very specific and rare, e.g. power herb xerneas) The fact that dynamaxed mons take half damage from poison/life orb/etc has been the final nail in the coffin for me.
"Whoever gets a hard set up mon with dynamax available wins the match 90% of the time", 1)this is not true :(, you can outplay shell smashers with one sac + dyna max guard and rarely they 6-0, I'm fairly positive they'd 6-0 a lot more with dyna banned, 2)A lot of pokémon in gen8 are set-uppers, if both of the players have em it still comes down to skill, if you're 4-1 but their last is able to dmax and win, doesnt it mean they played their wincon really well, assuring your counters were gone before revealing it? 4-1 is oddly specific too... being 4-1 means you can actually stall the dyna turns and deal with it with your last mon.


Random battles suspect testing dynamax is so telling, the mechanic is clearly broken, taking any team you might get and just blowing too big a hole with 0 reprocussions.
I can agree the mechanic is broken, but is it unhealthy? In my opinion making mu in rands less relevant and rewarding the better player is still something I would want to preserve. I really think banning dyna from rands would make the tier awful, you almost have no reason to play gen8rands instead of gen7 which would be a lot more fun thanks to megas and z-moves, and gen7rands is both not as enjoyable as gen8 dyna and also a lot less balanced


Ladder player that hit #1 a couple of times in gen 8 and a bunch more in gen 7 and 6.

Dynamax is clearly broken and we know it. All this talk about how it is "balanced" because both of teams get to do it makes no sense. I won't talk much about how strong and broken the moves and their side effects are and how doubling your hp can turn a Lunatone into a monster. I will talk about the shift of play stile.

All the match is extremely influenced by Dynamax. You are in constant worry about when will the other player Dynamax and he plays the same way. This isn't healthy. You always have to restrict your thinking. The fact you need to worry at times "ok will I kill this or will he dyna" is stupid. You cannot make a reliable game plan. You need to save it to use it at the perfect time but maybe save it to counter HIS dyna and this is hard and forcing you to play in weird ways. I personally feel relieved when both player have Dynamaxed, so we can continue playing normally and more freely.

The main problem however is the fact that any match of random is unbalanced, because well random teams. However, with good plays and predict you can overturn this or at least make the match more balanced. However, in a match between two skilled players, the player with a small advantage can exploit it dynamaxing said pokemon and securing the advantage, usually guaranteeing the win.

Also, some people are talking about "just switch and make it waste the dynamax turns". Are you serious? This is extremely hard to do because even a resisted move with that power, usually boosted by sun, rain, terrains is gonna hurt. Especially with random teams!

The only thing I admit is that this is fun. It's fun to sweep, yeah. It's fun to see giant mons.
Unfortunately as a guy who try to play random battles a bit competitively, trying to get #1 or high ladder, I have to say it should be banned.
"The main problem however is the fact that any match of random is unbalanced, because well random teams. However, with good plays and predict you can overturn this or at least make the match more balanced. However, in a match between two skilled players, the player with a small advantage can exploit it dynamaxing said pokemon and securing the advantage, usually guaranteeing the win." I assure you this was not the case at all in gen7, having a linoone, slurpuff, otr np like cofagrigus/aromatisse or shell smashers like cloyster, often just resulted in loss without anything you can do, If you have dyna you can have a shot at winning most mus which is a lot healthy in rands for sure.
"You are in constant worry about when will the other player Dynamax and he plays the same way. This isn't healthy. You always have to restrict your thinking. The fact you need to worry at times "ok will I kill this or will he dyna" is stupid." I can see what you mean here, honestly this can be fine since them wasting dyna often results in you having the upper hand, I often do things like going into a rkiller and then hard into a defensive check to fish dyna, which is a no risk play that can reward me. Dynamax makes you need to think a lot more which I dont think is a problem, It makes the game a lot more enjoyable for me.



All Dynamaxes are equal, but some Dynamaxes are more equal than others: Let's be real, Dynamax is not even balanced within itself. The effects of the types that lower the opponent's stats (Normal-, Bug-, Ghost-, Dragon-, and Dark-Type) are far worse than their counterparts which boost the user's stats (Fighting-, Flying-, Poison-, Ground-, and Steel-Type). Hail is an inferior weather compared to rain and sun, and situationally sandstorm if the special defence boost to Rock-Type Pokémon is pertinent. Misty Terrain is, for the purposes of Dynamax, worse than the other terrains because Dynamax is an inherently offensive mechanic, and Misty Terrain doesn't boost the power of Fairy-Type moves whereas the other terrains do for their respective types. This means that even though theoretically every Pokémon can use Dynamax to great effect, in reality this isn't the case, and most teams have one Pokémon who as soon as the battle begins the player identifies as their Dynamax user. Think Gyarados, Togekiss and Hawlucha at the extremes, but in the spoiler is a more comprehensive list:
Ludicolo - Rain Dance (Swift Swim)
Drednaw - Rain Dance (Swift Swim), Attack Boost (if Superpower)
Arcanine - Sunny Day, Attack Boost
Mudsdale - SpDef Boost, Attack Boost, defence boosts due to ability anyway so can become quite impenetrable
Gengar - SpAtk Boost
Seismitoad - Rain Dance (Swift Swim), SpDef Boost
Gyarados - Literally an auto-win after one Max Airstream
Steelix - SpDef Boost, Def Boost, helps set up Dragon Dance afterwards
Sirfetch'd - Attack Boost, Speed Boost
Hatterene - Psychic Terrain, G-Max Smite
Togekiss - Max Airstream -> Flinch Win
Rhyperior - Rock Polish -> Dynamax -> Weakness Policy activates -> Win
Beartic - Hail (Slush Rush), Attack Boost
Lucario - Attack Boost, Defence Boost
Hawlucha - Attack Boost, Speed Boost
Charizard - Speed Boost, Sunny Day
Mewtwo - Psychic Terrain makes Psystrike unbearable, Aura Sphere for Dark-Type Pokémon
Cobalion, Terrakion, Virizion - Attack Boost, Defence Boost (Cobalion), Special Defence Boost (Terrakion (Sandstorm)), Grassy Terrain (Virizion)
Solgaleo - Autotomise -> Dynamax -> Weakness Policy activates -> Win
Boltund - If sets up with Bulk Up, appreciates the terrain and weather and high BP Max Moves
Crustle - Appreciates high BP Max moves after Shell Smash
Musharna - Appreciates bulk and terrain after Calm Mind
Kingler - Rain to boost STAB after Agility is a good wallbreaker
Crawdaunt - Rain to boost STAB after Dragon Dance
Gallade - Attack Boost & Psychic Terrain, but lacks the power to KO with max moves without a Swords Dance first
Raichu-Alola - Choice between Electric and Psychic Terrain is nice
Scrafty - Max Moves after Dragon Dance are nice, Moxie + Max Knuckle get to obscene Attack Stat levels but usually requires setup first to offset bad speed
Stunfisk-Galar - SpDef boosts shore up its Curse Def boosts, Def Boosts if Curse hasn't been used yet either
Barbaracle - Max Moves after Shell Smash
Braviary - Speed Boost, Attack Boost (let down by Max Knuckle being weak and not getting STAB)
Weavile - Max Moves after SD
Noctowl - Speed Boost after Nasty Plot
Sigilyph - Speed Boost, Psychic Terrain
Mimikyu - Max Moves after a SD
Turtonator - Max Moves after Shell Smash
Sandaconda - SpDef Boosts shore up Coil Def boosts
Octillery - Rain Dance, SpAtk Boost
Durant - Max Moves are accurate without a Hone Claws, and even more powerful after one, Def Boosts technically but not that useful, permits it to use Bug-Type STAB after first turn on the field
Flygon, Haxorus - Avoids locking into Outrage after its boosts, SpDef and Attack Boosts respectively
Aegislash - Def Boost, Attack Boost if Sacred Sword, usually much better after a SD
Polteageist - Powerful STAB after a Shell Smash, but Stored Power is the same BP
Falinks - Attack Boost, bulk after No Retreat with Dynamax is actually fairly good
Frosmoth - Max Moves after Quiver Dance
Mantine - Speed Boost, Rain Dance (Swift Swim)
Lapras - Aurora Veil G-Max Move, Rain Dance
Darmanitan - Attack Boost, Sunny Day
Duraludon - Defence Boosts work well with Body Press, Max Wyrmwind removes the SpAtk drop from Draco Meteor
Stonjourner - Rock Polish likes Max Moves, Sandstorm makes its atrocious SpDef more bearable, Weakness Policy (budget Rhyperior)
All Rotom Forms - Electric Terrain, all forms besides base form appreciate their secondary effects too
Tyranitar - Max Moves after Dragon Dance
Kommo-o - Attack Boost, Max Moves after Dragon Dance
Blastoise - Max Moves after Shell Smash
Kyurem-Black - Max Moves after Dragon Dance, avoids locking into Outrage
Slurpuff - Max Moves after setup and Unburden activate
Mew - Psychic Terrain, Speed Boost, Attack Boost, better after a Swords Dance
Celebi - Max Moves after Nasty Plot
Zekrom - Max Moves after Dragon Dance, Electric Terrain
Lunala - Psychic Terrain, Max Moves after calm Mind
Zeraora - Electric Terrain, Attack Boost
Inteleon - Rain Dance, Speed Boost
Cinderace - Sunny Day, Attack Boost
Vileplume - SpAtk Boost
Pelipper - Speed Boost
Mamoswine - SpDef Boost isn't awful, and Attack Boost but without STAB
Roserade - SpAtk Boost
Hitmons - Attack Boost
Goodra - Max Moves
Wishiwashi - Max Moves, Rain Dance
Pangoro - Attack Boost
Machamp - Attack Boost
Coalossal - Sandstorm for the SpDef boost is kind of OK to help with setting up hazards afterwards, but has to waste 2 turns of Dynamax for this boon
Conkeldurr - Attack Boost
Barraskewda - Rain Dance (Swift Swim) and Attack Boost, but it's already faster than almost everything and powerful enough to KO most things without the attack boost.
Espeon, Jolteon, Leafeon - Terrains boost STABs, Espeon and Leafeon have setup moves they can use beforehand
Meowstic-F - Psychic Terrain
Farfetch'd - Speed Boost after a Swords Dance
Toxicroak - Attack Boost
Whiscash - Appreciates Max Moves after Dragon Dances
Throh, Sawk - Attack Boost
Gothitelle, Reuniclus, Beheeyem - Psychic Terrain
Chandelure - Sunny Day, powerful Max Moves
Torkoal - Max Moves and bulk after a Shell Smash, but often better to have Recover handy if it has it
Hippowdon - SpDef Boosts
Heatmor - Low BP moves normally so Max Moves are good, Sunny Day
Heliolisk - Electric Terrain, Rain Dance for Dry Skin
Rapidash(-Galar) - Sunny Day and Psychic Terrain respectively
Basculin - Move freedom, Rain Dance, Attack Boost
Galvantula - Max Moves
Seaking - Rain Dance (Swift Swim)
Ribombee - Max Moves after Quiver Dance (assuming webs are already set which is priority)
Passimian - Attack Boost
Gardevoir - Psychic Terrain
Copperajah - Signature entry hazard is cool but it's not enough to trump the above Pokémon
Manectric - Gives options to switch between moves, more powerful Max Moves, Electric Terrain, Sunny Day
Grapploct - Attack Boost
Escavalier - Def Boost, Attack Boost, move freedom
Snorlax - Bulk and power after Curse, Attack Boost or SpDef Boost depending on set
Dhelmise - Low BP moves so Max Moves are pretty nice, Def Boost
Kyurem - Max Moves
Kyurem-White - Max Moves
Alcremie - Bulk after Calm Mind
Mr. Rime - Psychic Terrain, but usually better off sticking bulky and using Slack Off
Gigalith - Attack Boost, SpDef boost (but automatic Sandstorm usually means it isn't necessary)
Darmanitan-Galar - Max Moves and high speed to make use of it but loses use of its Choice Scarf
Eiscue - Hail resets Ice Face
Tsareena - Attack Boost, Grassy Terrain, loses Synthesis and no way to boost Speed can leave it vulnerable when Dynamax finishes
Dragapult - Max Moves
Venusaur - SpAtk Boost
Hydreigon - Max Moves
Klinklang - Defence Boosts and Electric Terrain after a Shift Gear
Oranguru - Good after a Trick Room and/or Nasty Plot
Keldeo - Rain Dance, Speed Boost
Flapple - Max Moves after Dragon Dance, offsets Hustle inaccuracy
Decidueye - Max Moves after Swords Dance
Bisharp - Max Moves after Swords Dance
Golurk - Gets functional Ghost-Type STAB, SpDef boosts
Perrserker - Max Moves after Swords Dance
Incineroar - Sunny Day, Attack Boost
Primarina - Rain Dance
Melmetal - Attack Boost, Defence Boost
Rillaboom - Grassy Surge obsoletes Max Overgrowth
Orbeetle - Wall
Butterfree - Prefers having Sleep Powder at the ready, not powerful enough to break everything even in Dynamax
Vikavolt - Offensive types are easy to switch around and still frail in Dynamax so it's usually wasted
Corviknight - Body Press trumps Max Knuckle, prefers to just keep using Bulk Up and Roost
Greedent - Prefers to continue setting up, Gyro Ball > Max Steelspike
Unfezant - Not powerful enough and prefers to try and use Super Luck + Scope Lens for crits
Thievul - Prefers having Foul Play and Parting Shot available
Obstagoon - Might as well just stick to Facade and Knock Off, likes having Bulk Up available
Dubwool - Relies on Body Press
Shiftry - Has no real use for Dynamax
Liepard - Utility moves just turn into Max Guard
Diggersby - Prefers having priority open to it, powerful enough without dynamaxing
Cincinno - All moves are 125BP anyway
Ninetales(-Alola) - Already set up weather, Alola likes Aurora Veil any time
Delibird - Lol
Glalie - Moody trumps Dynamax. Dynamax can technically help get Moody boosts up, but if you have to waste your Dynamax on setting its Moody up you've misplayed your Glalie completely
Froslass - Wants utility moves access
Claydol - Utility / Wall
Xatu - Not powerful enough after maxing, always wants access to Roost
Abomasnow - Technically can be used for a little bit of additional bulk, but Blizzard / Wood Hammer are fine and usually wants to keep Leech Seed open as an option if it has it
Quagsire - Wall
Ninjask - Too weak to make use of it
Shedinja - Lol
Vespiquen - Wall
Bronzong - Wall
Drifblim - Needs access to its utility at all times
Eldegoss - Wall / Utility
Cherrim - Overcast is utility, Sunny already has Sunny Day and doesn't need more power on its STAB or Weather Ball
Skuntank - Max Ooze boosts wrong stat, better off just keeping Sucker Punch open
Dusknoir - Wall
Dusclops - Wall
Milotic - Wall
Garbodor - Utility
Centiskorch - Prefers just using Coil and its normal moves. It technically can work for Dynamax but in my experience it's been a waste 100% of the time and Centiskorch performs just as well without it, since it's so matchup reliant anyway
Dugtrio - Too weak to use Dynamax properly
Dugtrio-Alola - Same, plus has more utility and if desperate Iron Head flinch chance can be the most useful this mon ever is
Swoobat - Stored Power is just as good as Max Mindstorm, doesn't really need Psychic Terrain or speed boosts, likes having access to Roost
Persian(-Alola) - Prefers having access to Hypnosis whenever, too weak after a NP to OHKO in Dynamax anyway so stick to 2HKOing outside of Dynamax
Ferrothorn - Wall / Utility
Gourgeist - Utility / Choice Band is more of an offensive pivot than a sweeper and Dynamaxing doesn't allow it to sweep, so it's a waste
Pikachu - lol
Vaporeon - Wall
Umbreon - Wall
Glaceon - Wants Wish
Sylveon - Wants Wish
Appletun - Wall
Meowstic-M - Utility
Aromatisse - Wall
Araquanid - Offensive pivot, webs utility
Wobbuffet - lol
Lanturn - Offensive pivot, wants access to utility moves
Stunfisk - Needs access to healing at all times, technically enjoys the SpDef boosts but it's not good enough to capitalise on it sufficiently
Shuckle - lol
Gastrodon - Wants Recover
Golisopod - Prefers utility / priority
Corsola-Galar - Wall
Corsola - Pivot
Cursola - Needs Strength Sap at all times -- way too vulnerable after coming out of D-Max and always gets KO'd immediately
Grimmsnarl - Utility / Bulk Up sets can kind of use it but it's usually unnecessary. G-Max Snooze is nice but it's a waste more often than it's a play
Salazzle - Utility
Weezing(-Galar) - SpAtk Boost is on the right STAB, but they're utility Pokémon and will never sweep anyway
Sudowoodo - Prefers just having Sucker Punch access and isn't bulky enough to capitalise on D-Max
Clefable - Wants healing
Whimsicott - Utility
Mandibuzz - Utility
Drapion - Like Skuntank, this typing is just awful for a physically-oriented Pokémon. Almost always a waste even after a SD and better off saving the D-Max
Malamar - Superpower > Max Moves, wants access to Rest moves
Sableye - Utility
Mawile - Too weak even after SD, wants Sucker Punch
Maractus - Utility
Qwilfish - Utility
Jellicent - Wall
Toxapex - Wall / Utility
Cramorant - Only use is its ability, which D-Max nullifies
Cofagrigus / Runerigus - Wall / Utility
Trevenant - Prefers Horn Leech healing to Max Overgrowth, usually bulky enough without D-Max. Can use it but it's usually a waste because of typing
Shiinotic - Wall / Utility
Morpeko - Aura Wheel is powerful enough anyway and provides speed boosts, likes access to Foul Play
Togedemaru - Not powerful enough after D-Max, wants Wish and Spiky Shield
Wailord - Click Water Spout instead
Lunatone / Solrock - Access to healing is too important, or Will-o-Wisp for Solrock
Dracozolt / Arctozolt / Dracovish / Arctovish - Bolt Beak / Fishious Rend are better, can't do enough with the D-Max to make it worthwhile
Type: Null - Just ResTalk
Jirachi - Flinch win instead
I believe that list includes every single Pokémon in Gen VIII Random Battles and the purpose of it is to demonstrate that there is a clear hierarchy in the utility that Dynamax has, depending on the Pokémon. Of course, my perception isn't law and you may disagree with particular placements for certain Pokémon. However, the main takeaways are:
  • Dynamax has no use for defensive or utility Pokémon, only offensive Pokémon
  • How good a Pokémon is at abusing Dynamax roughly correlates with how good the Pokémon is to begin with, the primary exceptions being certain weather abusers
  • A significant portion of the top 2 tiers use Dynamax after already setting up with stat-boosting moves
  • Certain Pokémon who were big offensive threats in Gen VII cannot take advantage of Dynamax well, and are thus left in the dust
This leads me into my second point
Dynamax makes gameplay stale and less strategic: Gone are the days of scouting out your opponent's team before figuring out what your team's best counter is, because if you have any Pokémon who are good at abusing Dynamax, all you need to do is set up and win because matchup no longer matters and the Pokémon can just OHKO its would-be counters. This makes offence vs offence matchups pretty stale, because every game is centred around a set-up sweeper and the only win condition that either player is working towards is getting their Dynamax abusing ace set up the fastest. Even worse than this, however, is that offence is now, bar none, the premier playstyle. And this is exclusively standard offence -- hyper offence loses to powerful Pokémon who speed boost, and bulky offence loses to Pokémon who boost their offences too much, and if you're hoping to win with a bulkier team when your opponent has one of the top tier Dynamax users, you have an extremely unfair uphill battle that usually is lost no matter what you do. In a format where players don't even get to choose their own teams this is awful, and removes loads of strategy from the game. The whole purpose of random battles is to adapt your playstyle based on what team you have, but with Dynamax the optimal option for every player in every battle is to try and turn their team into offence somehow, even if it isn't catered to that style. It stales gameplay immensely.

It causes far more battles to begin on an uneven playing field: It's always been true that sometimes players essentially lose randbats when the teams are rolled, but in past generations that's either due to extremely unlucky matchup, or if facing an extremely small number of threats such as GeoXern, which there is still counterplay against for the most part due to requiring a turn of setup. In Gen VIII the number of matchups which are critically disadvantageous to a given player is way higher, because there are 20+ Pokémon who outright abuse Dynamax, and if any of them have a good matchup against your team you're pretty much done if the other player plays even reasonably well, and most Pokémon from Tier 2 and 3 Dynamax abuse can steamroll an advantageous matchup as well if played correctly. This means that while it's valid to say that Dynamax theoretically evens matchups because the player who starts on the backfoot has a powerful trump card, the inverse tends to be truer in practice: Pokémon who already have a good matchup abuse the hell out of Dynamax and win games without even trying.

The skill required to use Dynamax is basic: Above a rating of 1400 or so on the ladder, both players should have more than a sufficient handle on when it's optimal to Dynamax. It's a deceptively simple mechanic: we all know what Pokémon are broken with Dynamax, and we all know whether or not that Pokémon's first Max Move will either OHKO the opponent opposite it on the field, or get the counter that switches in into 2HKO range. If the answer to both of those is yes, you Dynamax and set up a sweep. If the answer to both of those is no, you consider whether any Pokémon on your team could do that, and if the answer is no then you Dynamax anyway if it beats enough holes into the opponent (excluding if they have a sufficient defensive Dynamax in which case you save it). Furthermore, you consider your opponent's own considerations of these questions, and if they're ever in a position where their answers are yes, you Dynamax defensively. That's really all there is to this mechanic generally, which is a large part of why it makes games so stale -- the theoretical extra dimension it provides to battling is extremely shallow, not to mention restrictive.

Dynamax is insufficient counterplay to Dynamax: This is a controversial statement, but hear me out. It's true that if the opponent uses their Dynamax prematurely, your own Dynamax is a valid counterplay in terms of neutralising the threat. However, it is, outside of a faster Substitute or sleep user, the only valid counterplay, and once you have used your own Dynamax defensively, you lose the option to use it offensively. This means that in the best case scenario, where the defensive Dynamax occurred on the same turn as the offensive Dynamax, the mechanic has just been mostly wasted for both players. In the second-best case scenario, the opponent who pulled the trigger first still gets the benefits of that first Max Move, before the defensive Dynamax is used on the subsequent turn. Furthermore, Max Guard fails 50% of the time when used in succession, meaning the offensive Dynamax still gets 2 opportunities to set up or boost most of the time, still presenting the offensive Dynamax with a clear advantage. Overall, this means that defensive Dynamax functions more so as a check than a counter to offensive Dynamax, limiting what the offensive Dynamax can do but not outright beating it. But it may even fail to qualify as a check because it still disadvantages the defensive Dynamax player by removing their own offensive Dynamax option. Finally, Dynamax is weighted far too much towards favouring offence, while the best Pokémon to use Dynamax defensively are defensive Pokémon, naturally, as they can either heal off the damage of the offensive Dynamax afterwards, or are the only option who can endure Max Moves after Max Knuckle of Max Ooze. This means that they don't get any mileage out of the Dynamax to then turn around and use offensively, because they're not offensive Pokémon. This paragraph is based on the assumption that both players use their Dynamaxes competently, which is a necessary assumption when discussing balance, so examples where your defensive Dynamax allowed you to turn the tide of the game just means that your opponent misplayed their own.

Dynamax forces players to think in the short-term: The fact that your opponent can become a behemoth, both literally and in terms of gameplay, at any moment forces players to always be ready to counter that option. This prevents long term plans where players can save a set-up sweeper for an opportune moment, for instance, because that Pokémon may be forced to act defensively against a Dynamax due to nothing more than its typing being good against the opponent who Dynamaxed. Strategy games are supposed to be based around making long-term plans, which Dynamax restricts massively by suddenly giving one side too much power and forcing the opponent to adapt there and then. And this still isn't interesting, because if the opponent has the tools to adapt then they can do so very easily, and if they don't then they lost due to matchup.

Dynamax's dilution of skill makes it not fun: I'm glad that some people find this mechanic fun but, trying to measure "fun" as objectively as possible, it simply isn't. I believe most of us will be in agreement that a game that is a battle of skill and wits is more fun than playing the lottery. Most of us will agree that the charm of random battles is catering your playstyle depending on what team is rolled, which Dynamax directly detracts from. That beginning on a roughly even playing field is more enjoyable than steamrolling the opponent, or being steamrolled yourself. That certain Pokémon being able to win regardless of matchup makes the game stale. It's great that this mechanic is fun for some people, but insofar as it's possible to measure fun, Dynamax really isn't it.
1)"All Dynamaxes are equal, but some Dynamaxes are more equal than others" I mean sure? But I got no idea why this is an argument for banning it, how does "Dynamax is better on Togekiss than on Gastrodon" mean you should ban dyna?
2)"Dynamax makes gameplay stale and less strategic" this is not true, It's not as simple as you get a setupper, dyna gg ez. A setupped Dynamaxed pokémon still has counters even if not as many, this means early dynamax is extremely reckless and even if the opponent really doesnt have any defensive checks, If you still have dyna in the worst case it should still get 1 kill, max 2 kills, since you can dyna max guard, you can argue this isn't balanced but I think it definetely is worth for having rands being as balanced as possible.
"Even worse than this, however, is that offence is now, bar none, the premier playstyle. And this is exclusively standard offence -- hyper offence loses to powerful Pokémon who speed boost, and bulky offence loses to Pokémon who boost their offences too much" I got no idea what this means, this is rands, you can get an offensish team like you can get a stallish team, stally teams can also win just as much as those more offensive, I'd prove it with some replays but literally none of the 60 I played for the suspect nor those I played on other alts got saved :(.
Either way Dynamax Definetely doesnt make the gameplay less strategic at all, you actually gotta think but almost none of the mu are unwinnable at all thanks to dyna, I'd mention Hada Yaba's post
In one of my req runs, i had my opponent packing a cinderace against ass vest goodra, galvantula, terrakion, metagross, escavalier and type null. With a lead matchup galvantula vs cinderace to boot. Can't set up sticky web either cuz cindy could have the court change. But dmax means that the whole match, i had the chance to target cinderace an otherwise ridiculous threat, finally managing to nail down the damn bunny with dmax terrakion and win the game.
This is one of the many scenarios that make dynamax healthy, a match-up which was supposed to be unwinnable, is still not impossible to win as long as you get good reads.
3)"It causes far more battles to begin on an uneven playing field:" "it's always been true that sometimes players essentially lose randbats when the teams are rolled, but in past generations that's either due to extremely unlucky matchup, or if facing an extremely small number of threats such as GeoXern, which there is still counterplay against for the most part due to requiring a turn of setup."
Thing is, if a small number of threats could easily 6-0, thanks to dynamax, in gen8 you got a shot against almost all the threats, even the dmaxed ones since often all you need is a sac and max guard to stall the opposing dynamax
"Pokémon who already have a good matchup abuse the hell out of Dynamax and win games without even trying."
Alright what's better, being 6-0ed at preview or playing around the dmaxed mon, losing two mons and then dyna to take it out and can still win the game? This is why Dynamax isn't unbalanced, it can be played around, especially in rands where you often have useless mons that you can easily sac if it means wasting dyna turns, all while giving you an actual shot against most mus, something that couldnt happen in other gens.
4)"The skill required to use Dynamax is basic" : "we all know whether or not that Pokémon's first Max Move will either OHKO the opponent opposite it on the field, or get the counter that switches in into 2HKO range" yes... expect we dont always know, since this is a no team-preview tier, if you managed to successfully scout you opponent's team than cool.. thing is if they sac their mon and go to their counter, they may end up losing it but they probably steal managed to get a chunk of your mon without using dynamax, which is bound to give them a good shot at the game, dynamax is definetely not an auto-win button, which is an argument I actually get a lot in rands room.
"If the answer to both of those is no, you consider whether any Pokémon on your team could do that, and if the answer is no then you Dynamax anyway if it beats enough holes into the opponent" Using Dynamax like this is often not a good idea, you can get some holes on your opponent's team which is nice but now the opponent can dyna, meanwhile you can't, if you already scouted all the opposing team and see you can afford it cool, but as this is a no team-preview format, it won't be easy... dyna is really anything but a simple mechanic at least at higher levels, even what you're describing isn't that simple, honestly I find the added layer of thinking enjoyable and not shallow, but that's just my opinion so it's fine if we don't agree.
5)"Dynamax is insufficient counterplay to Dynamax" I agree offensive dyna can overwhelm defensive dyna, which is why you need to sac a mon to properly check an offensive mon. I can see why you think this isnt alright, but I think this is a fine price to pay in order to have mu in ranbats less relevant.
6)Dynamax forces players to think in the short-term: I'd have said the opposite, but I can definetely see what you mean here, I still save the best dyna candidate usually, even if most of the times I use dyna defensively, while I still think long-term, not always things will go according to the plan, but I think that's fine in a random meta where you don't actually know your opponent's team obviously you can't make reliable gameplans. But I do admit that dynamax can contribute both to and against this aspect
7)Dynamax's dilution of skill makes it not fun: " I'm glad that some people find this mechanic fun but, trying to measure "fun" as objectively as possible, it simply isn't. I believe most of us will be in agreement that a game that is a battle of skill and wits is more fun than playing the lottery."
EXACTLY, AND THAT'S LITERALLY THE REASON I'D HATE DYNA BEING BANNED, that would just make the meta extremely unbalanced like playing lottery,being able to have a shot at every mu is just way too precious in my opinion that I wouldn't stand dynamax being banned and would probably just quit gen8rands

Having a gimmick for the sake of having a gimmick is nonsense, what's the point of keeping Dynamax around just so that you can differenciate Gen8 Random Battles from Gen7 Random Battles? With every Generation we get some changes, and we play along because that's the way Pokémon is headed. A mechanic as strong as Dynamax shouldn't stay just because it's the mechanic of Gen8.

Everyone knows Dynamax is busted, but Randbats was never balanced either. Keeping in something as unbalanced as Dynamax only worsens the problem of Randbats being unbalanced. That means you need more luck than skill to win, and I can't agree with that, even if this is Random Battles.
Already explained this in most of the quotes, but Dynamax doesn't make randbats unbalanced at all, it actually makes it as balanced as we can possibly get right now, being able to have a chance to win every mu as long as you get good reads. If it was banned then you really would have needed more luck than skill, but dynamax lets the better player have a shot to win even if they rolled a worse team (sorry if I didnt explain it as well, getting tired to write, you may want to check some of the other quotes to understand what I mean better)
I got way too tired of writing this so I may continue with the last few posts later,
things like these:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7randombattle-988112324;https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7randombattle-977991171;https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7randombattle-988109909 that were common enough in gen7 can be prevented thanks to dynamax, in gen8 there arent really unwinnable mus thanks to dynamax. If the opposing threat dynamaxes and you got no real defensive answer, then you sac a mon that can't be ohkoed or if you dont have it sac 2 mons, dyna max guard with a rkiller and 1v1 it, while many won't like this, it's the most reliable way we can get to make it rands less affected as possible from mu, being able to theorically winning any game even with worse mu is just way too precious to give up.
Not being able to abuse dyna doesnt make a mon trash, The only pokémon I'd say they suffered from dyna are ubers like melm and zama(both normal and crowned), since the level adjustement from good uber dyna abusers made them subpar. Still nate said in rands room that if dyna doesnt get banned then levels are gonna be adjusted to the dynamax potential which would solve the problem.
I can agree the mechanic is broken, but is it unhealthy? In my opinion making mu in rands less relevant and rewarding the better player is still something I would want to preserve.
If Dynamax gets banned, the tier is gonna be as unbalanced as gen7, imagine zacian-c where our best shot is dynamaxing fire-types to beat but even shell smashers, belly drummers and otr np mons can easily win if they have good mu, but less fun since there are no megas/z-moves, I literally got no idea why you would ever play it, p sure I'm just gonna quit gen8rands if dyna gets banned since it would make the format bad n enjoyable.
the tl;dr was made by parts of the single quotes, so I'd recomend you to read them if you didnt understand something #savedyna :(
 
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As a Gen8 randbats player, I like there being at least one format where Dynamax and particularly Gigantamax exists. Yes, there's Ubers and BSS, but some of the Gigantamax forms aren't viable in either. It's swingy, yes, but randbats is supposed to be swingy; it's inherently a more "causal" format where strict balance is less applied. Plus, as MultiAmmiratore says, it also counters other silly swingy things like Belly Drum sweepers.
 
As someone who takes randbats seriously and presently in the 1900's while I don't think Dynamax is a broken mechanic by itself I do believe that the games are often decided by who uses the Dynamax better totally discounting the better plays made by the other person earlier.

I have been in multiple matches where a moment of overzealous/brain fade in using/failing to Dynamax at the right time has cost me the match with the opponent simply snowballing when I had made so many better plays earlier in the match(I was 5-1 in one match and I decide to finish it by Dynamaxing my kyurem to ko lugia but my opponent calm minds then roost stalls my Dynamax turns then proceeds to Dynamax and sweep with max airstream and its increased bulk).In this match while I do agree that my opponent played his lugia very well and I misplayed by dynamixing my kyurem-w instead of thievul I still believe I should have won because I played significantly better than my opponent early game with some right predictions to get to a 5-1 lead with my kyurem-w facing his last mon lugia. This isn't right/healthy imo, the game simply was decided by the one Dynamax turn and not the other 30 turns where I played significantly better.It is different from a mistake such as letting a setup sweeper setup in that the only way I could have stopped such a sweep was by Dynamaxing myself as a lugia once with both calm mind and speed boost in psychic terrain simply impossible to stop even when I had 3 mons at full health and 2 other mons faster than it(one with a supper effective STAB) if it didn't have the boosts.

Also some Dynamax mons are simply better than other Dynamax mons like normally while beartic should be one of the weaker mons in your team as it is calculated as PU if it dynamaxes after a swords dance It ends up being one of the best sweepers as It has great coverage and its only but major weakness of bad speed is totally disregarded with free hail complementing its ability.Mons like Charizard,lugia,falinks all fall under the same boat which are very difficult to stop even If you can Dynamax but don't have the right mons to do so.

Overall I feel that Dynamax is a tech that is just not worth it.While it isn't broken most of the times it sometimes is and honestly imo doesn't add any fun to the game.While I do agree with some do not ban arguments such as It gives you a better chance in otherwise very difficult matchups and gen 8 randbats becoming a wattered down version of older randbats, I feel games being decided by one mechanic/turn is ridiculous and also part of the theme of randbats is that it is random and so few times you are gonna get good matchups and few times bad (but most of the time pretty even matchups).
 
Does this suspect involve mono random too? I can understand if dmax ends up being banned in the normal format but not the mono one. Its a relatively obscure tier already and its super swingy from the start anyway. At least dmax lets you have a chance at the often BS matchups there. Its a usually custom purely fun format anyway so i don't get how it needs to be 'balanced'
 
Does this suspect involve mono random too? I can understand if dmax ends up being banned in the normal format but not the mono one. Its a relatively obscure tier already and its super swingy from the start anyway. At least dmax lets you have a chance at the often BS matchups there. Its a usually custom purely fun format anyway so i don't get how it needs to be 'balanced'
The result of this suspect test only affects singles, i.e. Random Battle and Monotype Random Battle. There will likely be internal discussion between staff, and not a separate suspect test, about how to proceed with Random Doubles.
It will
 
Tldr pls BAN

Hi Im a casual floating in the 1600 to 1900 range. I know Im not the most skilled ranbattler but I think that is sort of the point.

Ranbats is by its very nature the most random metagame and thus I dont think it needs to or can be as balanced as the other metagames and casual fun should be a higher priority than in other metas.

That said, I believe Dynamax increases balance slightly and decreases fun highly, which is terrible to the "fun" metagame and should be banned.

On average over many games I feel compared to gen7 sweepers are much more prelevant in gen8 but also more manageable. I get swept and sweep with mons way more in gen8 than gen7 but I also FEEL less hopeless than I did in gen7 because there is the extra layer of maneuvering around my defensive dynamaxing. For example I dont dread seeing a slurpuff nearly as much as I did in gen7.

That said, the issue with dyna compared to megas and z moves is that *It is by default freatured in every single game on every single turn* while gen7 was full of games missing one or the other of megas/zmoves. This is HORRIBLE for ranbats as it makes the games more samey with the dancing around dyna in every game than any other generation and ranbats is the one meta where we should be stepping away from getting used to samey games with same team of 6 mons.

All in all the big problem TO ME with dyna is that it takes weight away from adapting to whatever team you get and making most of it and puts it to being good at utilizing dynamax game in game out.

Thank you for your time

EDIT Also Id like to add that the argument of not banning because of making the mode watered down gen7 ranbats is bad because dlc isnt that far away and naturally removes that by the sheer amount of mons being back as well as new galar forms completely changing the numbers.
 
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I think dynamax actually helps against mindless sweeps a lot more than people give it credit for. If in gen 7 my opponent sets up a Minior at the right time it will often be good game if I don't have a defensive wall for it. In gen 8 however I may only sack 3 mons, go to my counter and dynamax to tank a hit and ko it back (if I have max guard I only need to sack 2). For instance:

+2 84+ Atk Minior Earthquake vs. 84 HP / 84 Def Dynamax Tapu Koko: 328-388 (71.6 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In gen 7 this would've been a game-over, in gen 8 I still have a chance. Sure maybe my opponent is smart and doesn't dynamax straight away but I could go tapu koko first and double-switch in order to bait out the dynamax. I quite enjoy keeping the best dynamax moment in mind, and I always get a chuckle when me and my opponent dynamax on the same turn realising that the other would dynamax that turn.

I haven't climbed past the 1900's yet but I also notice a lot of battlers there tend to be more conservative with their dynamax, which means that for a lot of matches they wouldn't have played out any differently had dynamax not been around, only really being used near the end of the match to facilitate a sweep which would've won the game anyway.

I do think the ultra beasts might become a problem with dynamax if they get released this generation since you pay a big price for sacking mons to them, but they might also not get released at all so speculating about that is getting a bit ahead of things.
 
To preface this, I'm a pretty casual randbat player. Not to humble brag, but I've momentarily hit top 150 for gen 6, 7, and 8 random battles and don't consider myself a competent random battle player, climbing up the ladder by spamming games and luck.

Basically, my point is luck will always have a big influence on random battles games. From my experience, dynamax makes random battles a little more luck based because a select few mons are so much better as maxers than the rest. While dynamax can counter other dynamax, you often need a good mon to max(luck). Additionally, often no decision matters except for when and who you max making the game less skill-based. Moves made with normal-sized pokemon are significantly less important.

I think a ban is a little drastic, but something must be changed. If possible, I would've prefered tweaking movesets, items, and levels to make less mons insta-win(for example, remove sd from zacian please. way more busted than dyna)
On a separate note, I think changing movesets would be a better fix because imo dynamax is great in monorands and nothing should be changed.

The argument that randbats will be duller without dynamax is true, but honestly I think the tradeoff is ok

Sorry if my argument is incoherent. I support banning dynamax
 
In the past few months I have played a lot of Randbats gen 8 and Monotype Randbats and I personally am in favor of keeping Dynamax in gen 8 Randbats.

Firstly Randbats is a different Tier than OU and Ubers, theres no team preview, Level differences, and even the sets on the pokemon dont nessecarily benefit from dynamax. Not every Pokemon becomes an unstoppable sweeper with the possibility of dynamax added to them. Gyarados for example isnt always Moxie + Bounce to sweep through your opponents team, sometimes its intimidate or not even Bounce to boost its speed, also with the level difference and the hardcoded 84 EVS in every stat, gyarados can't sweep almost every team like it did in OU when they were suspect testing D-max.


There are so much options with dynamax, you can play around it by switching in immunities/resistances or even predict your opponent when hes trying to do that, also dynamax prevents losing to matchup, you can stop sweepers by increasing your mons bulk and the BP of your attack - and even if they dynamax their sweeper you can at least sac. half your team and then revenge them after instead of losing straight up 6-0 cause you dont have an answer (reminds me of minior/xerneas in gen 7 rands). Also Max moves arent that powerful, most of them have 130 BP and just a few can have 140/150 BP + the offensive boosting ones have 95BP which is often even less than the original attack. Most of the times you can at least live one of these max-attacks, whereas Z-moves in gen 7 most of the time had 180-200 BP which OHKO'D more often than max moves do, ofc you have the side effect of summoning weather/Terrain and boosting your stats (or lowering your opponents stats) - but only for 3 turns and the 2 main boosting max moves Max Knuckle and Max Ooze have 2 type immunities, Steel and ghost, so you can effectively negate the boost and 1 turn of their dynamax by just switching in a Steel/ghost type (and shedinja for poison too).

Even if you have to waste your own dynamax to prevent their sweeper from 6-0ing your team, you CAN at least prevent the sweep with d-max, whereas without Dynamax you dont even have the option to stall out your opponents d-max and then revenge their sweeper after with your own dynamax.

Moreover Dynamax brings Pokemon to life that are normally not very useful offensively, for example Noctowl or even Steelix. Without Dynamax Dragon Dance on steelix will probably be removed and steelix will go back to being a defensive set with stealth rocks, because even after 1 dragon dance you dont have enough speed to oustpeed most of your counters (Ninetales, Heatran, Volcarona, Mewto...) + you dont have the necessary bulk to live 1 attack from these mons (with dynamax you do). Noctowl will go back to being a defensive defoger, because it cant boost its speed with max airstream anymore. I personally like that these Pokemon who are in fact PU or NU can even be more threatening than a kyurem or melmetal, who are in the Ubers Tier.

Lastly I'd like to refer to RBTT and how dynamax has effected the tour overall. I know that a lot of the tiers weren't gen 8, but there was at least 1 Player on each team that played a gen 8 tier (Randbats or monotype randbats). I personally think that dynamax had a positive influence on RBTT overall because you didn't have to rely on matchup entirely. If one player used his dynamax more effectively than the other he could even win the game, despite having a bad matchup. That adds more fun and possibilities overall to the game.
 
As a player who has been playing randbats daily for the last 5 years and fluctuating between top 500 and top 10 my personal experience of this gen's randbats is between bad and horrible. Whoever gets a hard set up mon with dynamax available wins the match 90% of the time, Cloyster, barbaracle, blastoise, mewtwo, weavile, slurpuff, gengar and basically any mon with a +2 set up and a flying move. Having an enemy down 4v1 or him having me 4v1 and the last mon being a set up+ dyna to easily sweep has been so frequent that takes the fun away of the game and leaves a bad taste ( this has always been an issue but it was very specific and rare, e.g. power herb xerneas) The fact that dynamaxed mons take half damage from poison/life orb/etc has been the final nail in the coffin for me.
They sweep through most teams. I sweep entire teams with kommo-o and have been swept myself by it. It's incredibly hard to beat and if you do over half your team is gone. Its soul move is already a boost to all its stats, then the throat spray, then the dynamax boosts. It will one-hit kill nearly everything. It's not even fun to play anymore because it's just insta win
 
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