Resource SS ZU Viability Rankings v2 - Update @236

[UberSkitty]

I'm apparently experienced enough in this tier to be making VR noms.

A -> A+
Everyone's been thinking it. While hazards Qwilfish is fine and all, this is specifically in relation to its SD set. It's been seeing a lot of usage recently, especially in tournaments. It isn't too hard to set up SD with Intimidate and decent defensive stats and typing. The typing's STAB combo also makes it very hard to wall with a standard Water or Poison resists, and Aqua Jet makes it that much harder to RK. But like I said, everyone's been thinking it already.

UR ->C+/C - nvm forgot mareanie existed lol
People mock this mon smh, but Qwilfish alone justifies it imo. Otherwise, the most notable Qwilfish walls are Pyukumuku, which you can't just stick into any team, and opposing Qwilfish, which would need some specific and weird T-Wave to do so. Palpitoad on the other hand does have a slightly easier time slipperingly slipping onto teams, being somewhat of a discount Stunfisk or Palossand, but with that previously mentioned benefit of walling Qwilfish. I thought I'd share my set below cuz why not.

Palpitoad @ Eviolite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 96 SpD / 24 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock / Rest
- Toxic / Sleep Talk

Spd lets it creep Rhydon, since Palpitoad surprisingly fast for some reason. The SpDef lets it take two +2 Dark Pulses from Timid Skuntank, and also handle stuff like Rotom better. The rest is just thrown into the physical bulk. I ran this mon with Wish+Teleport Clefairy and Heal Bell Miltank so I didn't need RestTalk, but it's still there as an option.

B -> B+
This mon falls under what I like to call "The Claydol Effect". By this I mean that it's questionable if this mon would even get used if it weren't for its Stealth Rock+Rapid Spin combo, with mons like Rhydon existing. However, I personally find this mon to be a great glue option, alongside it's other benefits like Spikes, Flame Body, and overall unique typing to justify it on many teams.

B+ -> A-
Just a solid wallbreaker all around. High Attack and great coverage makes it hard to switch into if you don't have a Palossand. No Guard makes moves like Stone Edge and Play Rough reliable, and even allows for random and otherwise unviable coverage options like Iron Tail and Mega Kick. While its Speed and bulk can be underwhelming, they're not the worst, especially with base 82 Speed allowing Lycanroc to creep base 80 mons. It also gets Sucker Punch.

B -> C+
You're not using this mon and neither am I. Almost completely outclassed by its brethren, regular Stunfisk, as well as the multiple other Ground and/or Steel mons in the meta. The typo combo is nice for a defensive mon, but ultimately can't make up for Stunfisk-G's various flaws between an average movepool, massive amount of competition, and of course the infamous:

Mimicry

B+ -> B
I admittedly have no experience with this mon, so this is majorly just on-paper, but Sun doesn't seem common enough to justify a Sun-dedicated mon being this high. Especially within the same rank as Exeggutor and Shiftry, both Chlorophyll options that still have viability without Sun. The plethora of common resistances/SpDef mons isn't helping Ivysaur's case either. I can see it putting in work if you manage to set up, but that just seems like a big if.

B -> B-
Kinda agree with above, it's hard to fit this mon onto a team with so much competition as a Defogger, with that being it's main issue. It has niches that do give it some use though, specifically its unique and useful typing as a Defogger that gives it a better matchup against a handful of Stealth Rock setters. It's also very satisfying to pull of its ability.

B- -> C+
No more Perrserker, use regular Rotom.

Okay, bye.

 

[Apagogie]

I heard rumors saying a Vr update is going to happen soon. Here are some noms on mons I would like to have a vote on:

Palossand A to A+
Palossand is the most used rocker alongside rhydon in UMPL, being a common staple in different cores of the metagame. Its ability to check efficiently Sawk, preventing most spinblockers, answering rhydon and having most importantly recovery transformed the metagame in a positive way in my opinion. At the very least, Palossand allows balance to be played at its full capacity thanks to having a rocker able to stay for most of the games. It doesnt perform well at all against defogers, which explains the huge usage of rhydon and which can cost its place higher but I think its important to have a vote of the council on it.

Cofagrigus A+ to A/A-
Cofagrigus has been ranked in A+ premptively but it didnt make an impression that solid to warrant a rank that high. The mon stays somewhat underexplored and hard to place but A+ cannot be pratically justified.

Gourgeist A- to B+
Hasnt been played a lot lately with only one single usage in umpl, perhaps for wrong reason. Still, I find its dual stab hard to spam where teams have regularly several grass resists/immunities/Poltergeist proof measures and maybe its speedtier/utility became progressively less interesting that it could have been in the past. Except Silvally, the usage of ninty-five base speed is less common. Teams are overall either faster or slower than this benchmark, and teams overall bulkier. In a lesser extrend, fighting immunities is less hard to carry in a team, same goes for spinblock, and having an rhydon/eq check. Overall, I find Gourgeist hard to build around in teams and it doesnt carry A- vibes when it is played.

I played Trevenant recently in some teams which has the same dual stab than gourgeist and I was pleased by its success. Ghost/grass is not a totally dead combo in the current metagame. However, Trevenant currently ranked in C+ hits harder than Gourgeist which is important for some calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Trevenant Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 115-136 (34.5 - 40.8%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Small Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 88-105 (26.4 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
I dont think these mons are really comparable and in consequence I dont think the fact that I had some success with Trevenant in a bulky metagame necessary translates a rise of viability of gourgeist.

Clefairy B+ to A-
Clefairy knew a good usage in umpl and is overall a very good utility mon. I found it consistent in the games I have played compared to what you would expect for a B+ mon. Many sets and many different spreads are viable. A set underplayed that i like is Teleport CM. Although sometimes difficult to fit in, you get a lot of pivoting and people dont expect to face it as wincondition.

Piloswine B+ to B
This is never played, 0 usage in UMPL if im not mistaken. Icicle crash + eq + rock slide hits everything for good damage even if it means to not have ice shard. It is true that Piloswine doesnt add much utility compared to other rockers. However, why is not played sometimes over rhydon? I dont know, maybe it doesnt force Miltank to switch out. Perhaps it is for wrong reason. I wait a council vote on this.

Lurantis B to B+
This is more threating than the whole B rank and honestly Im more scared of this than Appletun or Lyncanroc which are a rank higher.

Pawniard B- to B+
Best anti defog measure and while its umpl run wasnt that impressive, its usage is on par with mons of this rank.

Coalossal B to B-
Too much ghost types

Silvally - Silvally Electric - Silvally Flying B- to C+
Weird mons ranked in B- which dont see many use and are hard to fit in teams.

C+ to C
They are worse than the other mons in C+ for different reason.
Ludicolo doesnt accomplish much reason to be played as a breaker or utility. Damage input too average and switch ins relatively generic if bad predict
Beheeyem is outclassed by exeggutor futureport. Spec sets are not difficult to put in range due to average type/bulk/bad speed/kinda weak to hazards & in consequence is not a reliable breaker against any team not ultra passive.
Gourgeist Super has no reason to be played in a competitive team to be honest outside of stall/semi stall

 

[Tuthur]

A- to B, this mon is huge garbage. Whenever I eventually succeed to fit it on a team, it just stinks. Specs is weak, inaccurate, and slow. Defensive is passive and invites plenty of threats like Tangela, Rotom, and Articuno.

B- to C, I don't remember why we rose it tbf. I struggle to see any reason to use it over Jynx tbf, and it really sucks into a tier with so many Articunos.

B- to B+, the sub np set has been abusing most teams without rhydon and galarian stunfisk. This is a great balance breaker with also a great defensive utility.

A+ to S, Perrserker has been banned and Cofagrigus kinda stinks. It can get back to where it was.

A+ to S, Articuno is the best defoger, the best defensive pivot, and the best special wall. It is extremely splashable with a ton of different viable moves and spreads. I'd argue there is no ZU Pokemon easier to fit in a team than it, not even Tangela, Qwilfish or Rotom.

 

[TomatoZause]

to C
Ditto has been getting used with adequate success in tournaments and can prove to be very durable by transforming into an opposing Articuno or Tangela. A mon that has been receiving usage in tours by top players should not be unranked, especially when it is having success. Lastly, Ditto can basically pull an Uno Reverse Card on an opposing sweeper, which can be prove vital.

to A-
Jynx is not being used like an A+ mon. Its weakness to rocks, speedtie with the Vallies and its reliance upon the infamous Focus Blast means you often find yourself putting the match into RNG's hands. The NP set can be nasty, but again the speed tier allows it to be revenged by Gourgeist-S, Rotom, Morpeko and countless others. Lastly, its frailty proves to be problematic. It leaves it victim to Sucker Punch or Shadow Sneak from most mons and even Gurdurr's Mach Punch if it is in range.

to B+
I am finding Uxie less and less useful. Its lack of reliable recovery is a real cripple to it, as well as its meh typing. Its best role is on Sun, but other mons in B+ for the roles in Sun are more useful outside of it than Uxie. Shiftry and Exeggutor are the 2 main examples. If I am being honest, this is kind of similar to what UberSkitty said about Ivysaur. If Ivysaur does drop to B, I think Uxie should as well.

and to A-
With Perrserker banned these two wallbreakers have lost competition. Lycanroc's 100% accurate Stone Edges, Speed and modestly better Special Defense help it in the meta, as almost nothing can safely switch into it. Kabutops, on the other hand has access to Flip Turn and can prove to be a great enabler with mons such as Specs Manectric or Rotom. Kabutops also has Knock Off which means it doesn't require support from mons like Gurdurr. Overall these two mons feel like top 3 physical wallbreakers in the meta.

to UNR
Honestly who uses this. It is complete garbage at setting hazards and it can never keep them up. Webs suck in this meta and lastly, just use Froslass or Accelgor as a suicide lead, they are so much more consistent and successful.

(Grass) to B-
Silvally Grass is being used with great success on even the highest stages. It recently had a 6-0 sweep in UMPL and is a serious threat right now. While it unfortunately cannot break Miltank, it can poke holes through teams without the Cow. Grass and Rock coverage is very nice and Flame Charge allows it to hit Steels.

For the next part I am going offer my opinion over some noms or hot topics in the current meta.

(Super) to B or B-
I think this mon has more to it then a C rank would suggest. It and Palossand are the only ghost types in the tier with reliable recovery. It also isn't a passive wall because it can be threatening offensively with Foul Play, Power Whip or Poltergeist. It can also run WoW or Toxic to cripple mons that would otherwise sit on it, like Tangela. The grass typing can also be very nice in dealing with Raichu, which can cause problems to teams that lack speed control. Lastly, it can switch into most physical mons and threaten them back with either WoW or an attacking move. Some examples being Rhydon, Sawk and Thwackey.

Stay or Drop to C+
I know some people have been loving this mon, but it has some flaws that regular Rotom does not. The weakness to rocks is a massive thorn in its side, and Seismic Toss chunks it significantly. The NP set can also be revenged easily due to its poor speed. Lastly, it struggles to break even frail Electrics. The defensive sets can be solid in my opinion, but the NP set is just meh.

to C-
Completely agree with diego_yuhhi. Specs is very threatening against the right teams and it completely shreds MilCunoPal. Certainly should not be slept on and definitely has potential with other breakers, especially ones that threaten Altaria.

Stay
I don't think anything has changed enough in the meta to merit Coal to drop nor rise. Its just good as what its good at, Spinning and Spiking.

to C-
Niche, but does wall Qwilfish so definitely deserving of a spot on VR in my opinion. The typing also synergizes very well with Nascar Cow who can cure status on rest sets and whatnot.

I think that is all I gotts to say, peace.

 

[plznostep]

heya peeps. people are doing noms so ig ill throw my hat in the ring and say what I believe deserves some attention (probably I haven't been playing SS ZU a lot lately :P)

Rises:
B- to B/B+
Agree with Tuthur on this, teams without Gunfisk and Rhydon can struggle versus this mon, and those two don't have recovery and are liable to be run down overtime which can open up Rotom-Fan lategame. It also has some defensive utility on top of that? Certainly better then a lot of mons in that tier like Ninetales and Abomasnow

A to A+
No doubt about it, Palossand feels like it shouldn't be in the A region. Consistent recovery makes it a very reliable rocker throughout a game and deals with two top meta threats in Sawk and Klinklang, Articuno isn't the worst mon to have trouble with since we have Defog Deterrents in the meta like Pawniard so it just feels just natural to put it there.

A+ to S
Miltank is the most splashable mon in this entire tier, i'd say even more then Articuno, another mon with a good argument for S tier at the moment. Its a really good glue mon for defensive cores and offers a lot of utility, Toxic, Cleric support in Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, Miltank offers all of it. Not to mention the bulk being absolutely outstanding, its hard to break Miltank if you aren't using mons such as Sawk, it even has good resistances and a useful immunity thanks to its abilities and some nice variety in its set composition. There's more we can talk about but it just feels like it should be there atm.

A to A+
If im not mistaken, this is literally the most used mon in the Tour. Good typing, access to spikes, intimidate, an incredibly threatening set in SD, with a nice speed tier alongside while also having some nice niche options such as Destiny Bond to catch unsuspecting opponents off guard. Yes, I know its revenged by Rotom and can struggle with Jynx but they ain't switching into you and you have priority for Rotom anyways. It just feels like it should be here instead.

Drops:
A+ to A/A-
Cofagrigus was heavily overrated when it first came into this tier. Has problems with using Rest as its only form of recovery, Alcremie wrecks it, Clefairy can check, Tangela does pretty well versus it, doesn't really have much set variety aside from maybe some Nasty Plot or OTR variants (the only one of those that can try and beat Alcremie is like, Nasty Plot) and obviously the speed stat is horrible and the special bulk is just okay so its scared of strong special breakers. Just seems not on the level of A+ mons such as Alcremie itself and feels more on level with A mons since its still quite threatening when used well.

A- to B+
I used to think that Poliwrath deserved to stay in A-, but atm I feel like Poliwrath struggles a bit right now, so many things can threaten Poliwrath and they aren't really that worried on what it does in return, such as Tangela, Articuno, Roselia, and more. Both Rotoms on a good predict also ruins this mons life :/
Feels more on level with the B+ mons atm.

That's all I can be bothered to do, cya :3

 

[Tuthur]

Locking the thread as we work on hopefully the last VR update before SV ZU's release.

 

[Tuthur]

VR Update is up! Thank you clean and Toto for joining us on that vote! Here is the sheet.

Rises
A+ -> S
A+ -> S
A -> A+
B+ -> A-
B- -> B
B- -> B
B- -> B
(Grass) C -> C+
UR -> C-
UR -> C-

Drops
A+ -> A-
A+ -> A
A- -> B+
A- -> B+
B+ -> B
B -> C+
B- -> C+
B- -> C
(Electric) B- >C+
(Flying) B- >C+
C+ -> C

 

[TomatoZause]

VR NOMINATIONS
Drops​

---> C
A steep drop, but one very deserved. It struggles a lot in the current meta where it is struggles to or is unable to break common Pokémon such as Rhydon, Nascar Miltank and Palossand. While it can in theory break Miltank, the damage it takes from Rocky Helmet and Double Edge recoil is far more than the damage it does with Double Edge after Miltank drinks it milk. Being unable to effectively break common fat cores at all gives almost no reason for this mon to be B tier or within it at all. These such reasons have led to it not being used once in Olympiad.

Proof

252 Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Palossand: 127-151 (33.9 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 102-120 (24.6 - 28.9%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Miltank: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO

---> C
It honestly impresses me how bad this Pokémon is. It has seen no usage in Olympiad and there is simply nothing this Pokémon can do that others cannot do more effectively. The Specs set takes a hard L against any team with Articuno or relies on making good reads and getting very lucky versus opposing Cryogonal. Not only this, but you can also run Exeggutor as a special Grass Breaker, or Jynx as an Ice one. The SD set, on the other hand can sometimes put in work, baiting Articunos with Rock Slide or destroying Steels (namely Stunfisk-Galar and Pawniard) with Earthquake. However, you would almost always rather run SD Qwilfish to abuse steel types or Lycanroc to force Articuno out, granting yourself a free SD. Its lackluster speed also means it can't break targets it desperately wants to, such as Klinklang and Skuntank. This Pokémon is just flat out outclassed by others and as such should at least drop to C.

---> B+
A very good Pokémon in my opinion, but it struggles in the current meta. It faces tough competition for a team slot from other Electrics, namely Rotom and occasionally Manectric. Its ability makes it inconsistent for breaking fat teams and its horrific bulk makes it absurdly dependent on pivots and makes it hard to splash on a team. It can be threatening against certain Palossand cores but is not splashable as Rotom or other A- tier mons. Such reasons are why Morpeko has yet to pick up a win in Olympiad.

Rises​

---> S
This just sits on every team with its ridiculous speed tier spamming Blissey moves like Toxic, Seismic Toss, Heal Bell and Recovery. Its abilities in Thick Fat and Sap Sipper make for a great wall to Rapidash and Tangela respectively. Almost nothing forces it out, and the Pokémon that do cannot break its most common partners Articuno and Palossand.

---> A+
A bit of a hot take here, but Rapidash is a very versatile Pony with 3-4 viable sets, (Physical Utility, Special Utility, SD and its variants). It can threaten Pokemon such as SD Qwilfish after a SD (and intimidate). It preys on teams that rely on Palossand or Rhydon as their Ground-Types as it can chip them down throughout a course of a game. It's Mystical Fire / Toxic Moveset is very nice because it is a counter to Aromatherapy Alcremie. Its Physical variation of this set also does a great job against Alcremie, as Alcremie gets hit very hard from Flare Blitz and takes chip from Toxic. While the SD set can struggle in certain MUs, other sets can be run such as Play Rough or the rare (and admittedly goofy) Power Herb Solar Blade.

---> B-
Fairly simple, it is arguably Electric Terrain's best abuser with its aggressive CM Simple Electric Seed set. The setter of Electric Terrain, Pincurchin is B- and thus it makes sense to have Swoobat there as well. C+ tier is kind of thick right now so it makes even more sense for this Big-Nosed Bat to rise.

---> B-
This is a Pokémon seeing very serious use in tournaments due to its solid defensive typing, pivoting and defog. It can effectively check certain Pokémon with Thunderbolt or Ice Beam coverage. I think it is due for a raise because of the success it is currently seeing.

---> A-/A and ---> A+
Cryogonal offers superb utility as it is the best Rapid Spinner in the tier, while also offering a Ground immunity, Knock Off and a nutty speed tier. It is also pressured far less than Articuno, the defensive Ice type in S tier.

Altaria, on the other hand, offers superb role compression with Defog, Heal Bell / Toxic, and Natural Cure. It also does well against sun and Rapidash. It too is pressured by far less than Articuno, even if it lacks pivoting. Overall, I think these Pokémon are both due for a raise, even if it may seem a bit ambitious to some.

Other Topics
C+ Tier​

C+ Tier is very big right now, containing 16 Pokémon. So, what can be done? If Swoobat moves to B-, that leaves 15 and if Aboma drops, it goes down to 14. I think there are other Pokémon that could be due for a change, such as Type:Null or Silvally-Flying dropping. However, I do not feel there is a convincing enough case for these noms because of various reasons. As of right now, I think that 14 mons is okay, especially if some of the other Pokémon can drop or rise.

If I think of other topics, or new drops, or just want to write more thoughts, I will add them here.

 

[diegoyuhhi]

ok, time for my classic weird opinions vr post. first of all, a few other noms i defo agree with:

---> S

---> A+

---> A-/A

now let’s get to the real shit.
RISES
--> A-/A
this mon is legit so fucking good rn. its sheer amount of utility and move variety is unrivalled in the tier, being able to reliably run all of stealth rock, knock off, toxic, twave, heal bell, and much more as well as having reliable recovery, an amazing ability, a great defensive typing, good matchups vs most other defensive mons and spread customization between physdef and spdef. furthermore, recently there has been a lot of experimentation with teleport sets that has lead to it being able to fit so much better on more offensive teams and serve as a bulky utility pivot, useful to come in without taking hazard damage, tank a hit or absorb a status condition, and gain momentum while switching out. calm mind sets, although mostly outclassed by alcremie, can still be threatening to certain teams not ready to handle this mon. its stats are not amazing but it more than makes up for it with all its other positive traits.

--> A-
good god is this mon a threat. our rock resists are pretty limited, and most of them are weak to cc/don't have reliable recovery, so it wouldn't come with a surprise that a mon with 115 base attack boosted by choice band and 100% accurate stone edges is one of, if not the best wallbreaker in the tier. even mons like poliwrath, palossand or qwilfish aren't that safe vs it, thanks to its amazing coverage. it also has access to sucker punch to revenge kill faster threats like rotom, and it can also run swords dance on life orb set to boost its amazing attack even further. even tangela, the best catch-all physical wall in the tier, is 2hkod if it gets its evio knocked off, and completely fumbles to future sight support. lycanroc is still in a weird speed tier and somewhat hard to get on the field without pivot support, so imo it shouldnt raise more, but i think all of these traits make it a very a- worthy mon.

--> B+
ppl are gonna hate me for this, but i've been loving this mon more and more as time goes. being the hardest check to klinklang you can ever get and a toxic immune rocker, while still retaining most of unovian stunfisk’s good matchups (and a few more!) are amazing traits that make this mon easy to splash on balance teams. even tho not having toxic hurts it a bit, it still has access to utility moves like yawn, twave, foul play, and its signature move snap trap (curse is bad don’t use that). mimicry is ofc a very detrimental ability, making it almost useless vs thwackey and eterrain teams, but i think its positive traits make it very justifiable over other rockers in many builds and very b+ worthy.

--> B-
slept on threat. the “stallbreaker” set which has been the standard one for quite a while doesn’t really work that well in the current meta, at least not enough to justify it over other mons; the set i wanted to nom it for is the nasty plot set. at a first glance it may just look like a worse skuntank, but the main thing that makes golbat worth using over the former is its access to recovery. roost together with its toxic immunity make it able to freely setup in front of common defensive mons like miltank (with very minimal hp investment you can make golbat 3hkod by seismic toss), non-discharge stunfisk, palossand, alcremie, altaria, and even articuno if you run enough bulk to not get 2hkod by freeze dry. it’s very hard to fit on teams and to support with enough removal without repeating the flying type, but i think that it can defo have a niche in the current meta.

DROPS
--> A+
veeery controversial, but i strongly believe klinklang is not s tier worthy. yes, it can make progress through most of its would-be checks through toxic until it finds a good opportunity to set-up and win on the spot, but in this very bulky meta with heal bells and recovery mons flying everywhere, it struggles a lot to create a good situation in which it can setup and sweep. as OranBerryBlissey10 said, klinklang is a "noob check" mon: if you let your check/soft check get chipped too hard to a point where it cannot switchin safely anymore, then you just need to l2p. and not like this meta isn't full of klinklang soft checks: between stunfisk (both versions), qwilfish, rapidash, the omnipresent miltank, fthrower altaria, palossand, even more uncommon mons like sableye or cramorant, and many more, klinklang sometimes struggles to make progress if the opponent plays optimally.

--> A/A-
i've never been a fan of this mon since the moment we got it, but i think that rn it's very hard to justify over other mons. utilizing both the ghost type and the ice type in one slot, making you not able to run articuno, rotom or palossand without repeating types, makes it so that this mon has an hard time getting into teams. even if you can fit it on a team, its impact in a game is usually not the one you would expect from an a+ tier mon: the choice band set has a pretty underwhelming damage output and is completely walled by cow, while the spikes set, even if it has very nice mus into a lot of defensive mons, isn't that great over the course of a game, due to being very frail and having to constantly take weak hits. in conclusion, i think it fits better with the mons in the a or a- tier, and if jynx dropped bc of being a strong but frail ice type not easy to fit on teams, i think froslass should drop too.

--> C
you're not using this mon and neither am i. like for real, what does this have over other bulky pivots like clef? what does it have over other bulky normals like miltank? what does it have over other status absorbers like poliwrath or throh? it has a niche way too specific to actually be able to insert this mon into a team without focusing on building around it, and even if you do this mon by itself does almost nothing, locks you out of using miltank (which is almost never a good thing) andmost of the time it doesn't feel as bulky as it should be. i simply don't think this mon has a place in the current meta.

--> UR
nobody uses these anymore fr. shuckle is just straight up bad, since webs are ass and there are better hyper offense suicide leads like uxie or dugtrio. leafeon is outclassed on sun due to its nonexistent coverage and its bulky wishpass sets are not good enough to justify using it over other bulky grasses like tangela. butterfree hasn't seen usage in ages and although it may look decent on paper, in practice it can be easily played around and shouldn't be a threat to most competitive teams.

that’s all i had to say, bye

 

[BaitWiz]

Heya, back for a new set of rankings. Throughout Olympiad we've seen a lot of familiar faces both succeed and struggle and I just wanted to give some thoughts on a few of them!

Rises

Miltank: A+ -> S
Miltank has been one of the most dominant Pokemon for a while now - it's incredibly fast for the tier, can invest its bulk basically wherever its team needs it to, and has two excellent abilities in Thick Fat and Sap Sipper. It's a glue of the tier that is able to always and consistently make progress, and I feel this pushes it above other mons in the A+ tier - no other mon in the tier is as splashable and easily usable as Miltank is and it's no shock to see it being used a ton throughout Olympiad.

Pawniard: B -> A-
Pawniard Spikes has become a very dominant playstyle, seeing some usage and quite a bit of success alongside teammates Roselia and Froslass. Defiant and/or Swords Dance boosts allow for Pawniard to rip through weakened teams with its nasty combination of Sucker Punch, Iron Head, and Knock Off. With okay bulk that's boosted by Eviolite, Pawniard may be fairly one dimensional, but it is phenomenal at what it does and several players are figuring out how to best abuse that fact.

Stunfisk-G: B -> B+
Gunfisk has been a very controversial Pokemon in the tier for a while, as its ability is downright detrimental to it at times and its movepool leaves quite a bit to be desired. That being said, its beneficial traits have proven themselves again and again as of recent - Steel/Ground is a phenomenal defensive typing for ZU, switching comfortably into the likes of Skuntank, Rotom, and defensive Articuno without much difficulty and creating progress with stealth rock, EQ, and its choice between Stone Edge and Rock Slide. While its moveset is missing the all-important Toxic, it has a few other solid options in Foul Play and the occasional Thunder Wave or Yawn to still make progress outside of hazards; Foul Play is most common to take full advantage of Rotom. While it's nowhere near meta defining, Gunfisk absolutely has a place in the tier and is worth tiering up to B+.

S-Water: C+ -> B+
This is a pretty severe rise, but I do feel that it's pretty justified - Silvally Water has been the definitive specially-focused offensive water for a minute now and its usage throughout both Majors and Olympiad both reflect that. With Boltbeam coverage it can deal at least decent damage to common defoggers Articuno and Altaria; it can also act as an effective pivot with its solid bulk with its choice of UTurn or Parting Shot. Boltbeam coverage alongside Water STAB also allows it to hit several other notable Pokemon in the tier for super effective damage - Qwilfish, Rapidash, Rhydon, and Stunfisk, just to name a few. It's honestly shocking to see this Pokemon still in the C tier and I think even if it doesn't rise all the way to B+, it should absolutely be somewhere in the B tier.

S-Grass: C+ -> B-
Silvally-Grass was initially pioneered by Ho3nConfirm3d back during the Klinklang suspect test, where he used it on an offensive team to achieve requirements. Since then, it hasn't seen a ton of play, but when it has it tends to shine best as either a midgame breaker or endgame sweeper. Its signature combination of Multi Attack and Rock Slide are surprisingly difficult to switch into in the context of ZU, as most neutral targets tend to take a lot of damage from it; only Sap Sipper Miltank really stuffs it completely since it typically slots either U-Turn or Flame Charge into the last slot to hit opposing grass-types. It isn't the most splashable Pokemon by any means, but it's absolutely a legitimate piece of the tier and should be recognized as such in the B tier.

Drops

Klinklang: S -> A+
My opinion on this Pokemon has changed more times than I can count, but the fact remains - somehow Klinklang is no longer the tier-defining monster it was a few months ago. Palossand's addition to the tier has given it a major thorn in its side, as has the continued usage of Pokemon that punish its STAB Gear Grind like Rapidash and Stunfisk, whose burns and paralysis spell game over for Klinklang. It also finds difficulty making progress with Toxic due to the number of clerics present in the tier - meanwhile, if the opposing team doesn't have a cleric it often has a steel-type like Gunfisk or a poison type like Qwilfish that can safely absorb toxic for its team while taking on its Gear Grind and threatening damage back. Klinklang does still absolutely have the tools to succeed in the tier and will sweep teams unprepared for it, but it's unmistakable that it no longer sits at the top of ZU.

Appletun: B+ -> B
My fellow apple enjoyers, today is a sad day. Appletun struggles immensely with the popularity of Articuno, its number one nemesis, only increasing in popularity; furthermore, giving free turns to the likes of Klinklang, Froslass, and Jynx only continues to grow problematic. Furthermore, its status weakness is debilitating - Toxic puts it on a timer that it often can't circumvent without giving up precious turns that often force it right back out after recovering. Lastly, Choice Specs struggles to catch anything noteworthy - at maximum speed it can catch slow variants of Tangela and Rhydon but hates getting hit by Knock or Megahorn if its target lives. With effort Appletun can succeed, but the current metagame only grows more and more unkind to it.

Stays

A ---> A+
Altaria... offers superb role compression with Defog, Heal Bell / Toxic, and Natural Cure. It also does well against sun and Rapidash. It too is pressured by far less than Articuno, even if it lacks pivoting. Overall, I think these Pokémon are both due for a raise, even if it may seem a bit ambitious to some.

Altaria is an excellent Pokemon by all means - don't get me wrong. The issue with it is its quad ice weakness - being abused constantly by the likes of its defog and cleric competition in Articuno as well as ice monsters in Jynx and Froslass, Altaria does great things but is abused by some of the scariest Pokemon in the tier. Other notable Pokemon that give it issues include Scarf Rotom, Rhydon, and Silvally-Water (who again, I do feel is quite excellent and isn't given enough credit). Like you mentioned, it also lacks a pivot move - something that allows Articuno to be far less prediction reliant than Altaria, which often incurs increased risk. Lastly, Altaria's options for an offensive move are rough - only being able to slot in one move in the unreliable Hurricane is far from ideal, while its other options tend to leave it wanting for more.

A- ---> B+
A very good Pokémon in my opinion, but it struggles in the current meta. It faces tough competition for a team slot from other Electrics, namely Rotom and occasionally Manectric. Its ability makes it inconsistent for breaking fat teams and its horrific bulk makes it absurdly dependent on pivots and makes it hard to splash on a team. It can be threatening against certain Palossand cores but is not splashable as Rotom or other A- tier mons. Such reasons are why Morpeko has yet to pick up a win in Olympiad.

Morpeko is a phenomenal offensive mon - Aura Wheel is a very difficult move to play around once certain enemy threats like Palossand and Rhydon are chipped down and it has two great sets between the more balanced HDB set and the more offensive Choice Band set. The latter is phenomenal at forcing switches, which can be abused either with predictions or Parting Shot. While Morpeko does indeed compete with Rotom, it's worth noting that it does beat non-scarf outright if it isn't burned and beats scarf variants at +1 speed. Morpeko also tears through Articuno and Cryogonal like butter and does solid damage to Miltank, things that Rotom would kill to do. I feel that this efficiency against top tier threats as well as its general cleaning power make it worthy of remaining in the A tier.


Lastly, some noms I agree with that I haven't already mentioned above:

Drops​

---> C

Rises​

---> A+
---> B-
---> A-/A

RISES
--> A-/A
--> A-

DROPS
--> UR

 

[sleid]

Hi everyone. This is my first time doing this so any feedback is appreciated. Might be a little long winded, but these seem like changes that need to be made. I will start with the noms and reasonings from my fellow community members that I agree with.

Agreed Rises

---> B-

---> A-/A and ---> A+

--> B+

Pawniard: B -> A-

Agreed Drops

--> C

DROPS

S --> A+
This seems to be a very controversial topic in the meta right now. I understand that this mon was suspected to be banned at one point, but right now it feels as though that should have been a joke. One could argue that this mon is such a threat that the meta has evolved into teams needing to bring 2-3 counters/soft checks to ensure it is handled. It honestly has been apart of turning Sword/Shield into the fat/balanced tier that we play now. However, that point is recent history and we are now in a new era of this metagame. Because Klinklang has been so dominant in the past, it is now being compressed by teams that are built so it cannot wear them down anymore. Our main rockers can either wall KK or take a boosted hit and kill back. Our defoggers now run moves to be able to help deal with this threat better (Cuno -> U-turn, Alt -> Flame/EQ). We have many mons that can come in and deal with boosted KK or force it out (Dash, Cow, Persian-Alola, etc) without hardly any trouble. While I still believe this mon is very strong, we seem to better handle it now and that reflects in the teambuilding in Olympiad, room tours and soon to be the SS Cup Tournament.

B+ --> B-
Please go read this mons Smogon Analysis. It gets walled, killed or setup on by almost every major mon in the tier. It invites in the (arguably) best defogger in Articuno and many setup sweepers. It doesn't get used competitively at all (at least not recently). There are way better grass types that do the same job. It has a niche with it's typing to be able to take some hits well. STAB Draco is cool and Eject Pack sets for a pivot are meh. Just not worth using this thing over some of the better alternatives (Tang, Egg, Thwackey, etc). With the current popular mons in the meta, it struggles to hold its ground.

B --> C
I mean, do I really need to go into much depth here? This mon could arguably be UR but it does have a niche I guess. It does hit very hard and has a nice setup move to sweep teams, but the inconsistency of Hustle can be soul crushing. Without Hustle, it doesn't really put it as much work as it needs to. It has an okay typing, but it has mediocre bulk and gets hit hard by a lot of the top mons in the tier. It is never used in serious competitive play. There are much better wall breakers/sweepers in the tier. Please lower this thing.

, Psychic, , --> UR
When do we ever see any of these mons? All of these are completely outclassed and shouldn't be ranked for the sake of being ranked. I understand they are in the lowest tier, but that would mean they have some viability to begin with. There's not a ton I need to say about the first 3 mons. Obviously, a completely passive setter isn't usable in this tier. There are 6-7 better vally forms than Psychic and other psychic type mons that heavily outclass it as well. I didn't even know Shedninja was ranked until this very moment, there is too much status on every team and high usage mons that have coverage to OHKO. You're basically playing 5v6 w this thing in a slot. I know Heatmor has a lot of controversy. Even with its recent rise to the VR, this thing isn't being used hardly at all (and if it is, it doesn't do much). It can hit hard if it's inaccurate moves connect, but there is a lot of the metagame that can just wall this thing and hit back since it is super slow and has mediocre bulk. I don't think this mon really proved to be worth adding to the VR and it certainly hasn't done ANYTHING to warrant it staying. There are probably other mons worth moving off the VR, but these I believe have the best argument.

RISES

A+ --> S
Miltank is almost a staple in this community at this point. With many viable spreads and great utility, it can almost be brought onto any team in some capacity. It's very much a catch-all wall that can almost be built to handle anything. If nothing is brought to take care of this thing, it can wear down your entire team. It is by far the most reliable cleric in the tier and can even be a solid rocker if the role is needed. All this being said, I think this mon warrants S tier consideration.

A --> A+
THE best rocker we have in this tier. An electric immunity that can also handle taking a Rotom Shadow Ball. An absolute wall to KK. The ability to cripple teams w toxic. On fat teams, it can run Rest w a cleric to stay alive for even longer. Physical mons hate to touch this thing in fear of getting getting hit with Static. It can find itself being super passive against some mons, but most of the time those mons can't really do much against it (see Altaria and Cuno). It's an easy fit on most teams and offers many great attributes that it's A rank brother Palossand does not. I believe this thing should be a step above.

A --> A+
Great stats, a recovery option, a solid ability, a sweeper/heavy hitter. This mon seems to be able to do it all. It is the only good fire type in this metagame and has become super popular due to the defensive/offensive role it plays. I believe this mon has contributed to the drop in Alcremie usage due to its ability to wall and kill. It can catch "checks/soft checks" on switch in and cripple them for later interactions (Rhydon, Qwil most notably). It has been so popular lately and has seen success alongside that popularity.

C+ --> B-
This might be a biased take, but I think this mon is criminally underrated. I believe it is the 4th best hazard remover this tier has (behind Cuno, Alt and Cryo). The beauty of this mon is that it takes on a different role than these other 3 though. Cramorant really doesn't have much that can come in, take a Surf/Hurricane and hit it back hard. It's ability can also scare off mons from wanting to hit it with direct damaging moves. I'm not calling for a mandatory shift back to B-, but I think this mon has a lot of great qualities as a defogger and can fill some defensive/offensive roles that the other defoggers cannot (i.e. Being able to threaten rockers, walling KK, slowing down offensive threats quicker, punishing offensive attacks, etc).

Thank you if you took the time to read through this :) Again, any feedback is greatly appreciated as this is my first time.

 

[OranBerryBlissey10]

S to A+: Articuno is obviously excellent, but imo it isn't on the same level as the other S ranks (or Miltank). The lack of any sort of meaningful pressure against steel types is its biggest flaw, but no matter what set is run cuno is going to have other issues despite its massive bst. Standard defog cannot effectively keep rocks off vs top rockers like Rhydon or Stunfisk (the latter is huge and exacerbated when chipped or vs discharge variants), Heal Bell sets do not have this issue but can be difficult to build with since good clerics are abundant unlike good defoggers. Offensive sets lack the needed defensive integrity and Toxic sets only help against the softer cuno answers while any set lacking U-turn is easier to abuse. Its defensive prowess cannot be understated, but simply having it on a team makes said team weaker to steels. Articuno also matches up poorly against the 3 best mons in the meta and only seems like an unbreakable behemoth in games with at least one bad team (cough elfu vs tj cough).

C+ to B+: Watervally has been so underrated for a while now. It has 3 good sets and even the worst one has seen tournament success:

4 attacks

Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- U-turn

Offensive special waters aren't really a thing, and this one has nice coverage too and can pivot. The defensive utility is also there but it's still kinda weak so it falls flat vs blanket walls (doing 20 to cuno is unfun).

bulky defog

Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Defog
- Multi-Attack
- Thunderbolt
- U-turn

This set can be such a good crutch on BO, It provides a fat pivot à la Wishiwashi and deals with a large number of threats (it easily lives 2 sawk ccs). It also profits from the lack of insight on the opponents part even if they know what watervally does. Ice Beam can be bluffed to scare out alty while they will also likely not play around U-turn until setup seems absent. The lack of recovery is annoying but something that usally goes unnoticed is that is dunks on every common hazard setter except Roselia. Can also run Impish with 16 speed if the team is weak to eggy.

work up

Silvally-Water @ Water Memory
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Work Up
- Multi-Attack
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt

Similar to aoa but can muscle through walls like Miltank and Articuno. Imo better than the first set because of Multi Attack's significantly higher bp and with the exact same coverage. Even just firing off raw MA's is effective since fat grasses usally don't like switching in.

C to B-: Ninetales is a fish, but a decent one. Teams usally only prep for Rapidash which means you can end up with Qwilfish Rhydon teams that get decimated by the fox. Some fun bonuses are the fact that Miltank is starting to run sipper more and the ability to snipe alty if one is willing to run Abomasnow. Ninetales is bad but not C level bad. (pls use this over Heatmor)

random one-liners that are true but I don't wanna write a whole paragraph about

- Fisk palo and don all being in the same tier in painful, I defo think there is a clear ranking among them so fisk to A+ and palo to A- (it sucks no matter how hard you beat sawk, the skunk/rotom handicap is huge).
- sorry idt clef cryo and pawn deserve a rise that significant even if I like them
- hard agree peko should stay where it is even if the boots set is ass
- pls stop asking to unrank shuckle idc how uncommon webs are
- psyvally's my boi, it autowins if the physical tank is a fat fighter
- idc about leafeon either way but pls don't use it on sun
- C+ is in fact massive but Shiinotic should be in there too
- The consensus seems to be to drop klang and rise tank, don't necesssarily disagree with that but klang can spiral out of control with ease and is still THE defining setup sweeper.
- gunfisk is cursed and will match up vs skunkthwack 100% of the time

ty for your time

 

[Tuthur]

So we made another VR update, probably the last for real before SV.
Here is our voting sheet.

Rises:
Miltank A+ -> S
Clefairy B+ -> A-
B+ -> A-
B -> B+
(grass) C+ -> B-
C+ -> B-
C -> B-
(water) C -> B

Drops:
S -> A+
S -> A+
B+ -> B-
C+ -> C
C+ -> C
C- -> UR