STABmons v2 Viability Ranks 「B / C RANK DISCUSSION」

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Welcome to the STABmons Viability Ranking! Viability is ranked into six categories from best to worst: S, A, B, C, D, and E.

In this thread you can discuss a Pokemon's ranking and if you think it should move up or drop down. If a Pokemon is not on the list, you can recommend it be added. Either way, please substantiate your claims when posting in this thread. Only well-thought arguments will be considered, so be prepared to back them up if questioned further.

Let's get to the ranks!

S rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are unmatched in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall large portions of the metagame on their own, and often in more than one capacity. With so few if any flaws holding them back they should always be considered over another Pokemon that performs in a similar role. These Pokemon define the metagame.

A rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are extremely potent in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall large portions of the metagame and have minor flaws that can be mitigated with the right support, if any. They can perform very well in more than one role or just excel in one so well they do it better than almost anything else. These Pokemon influence the metagame.

B rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are still very potent in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall some portions of the metagame but might have flaws that require more support. They can perform very well in one role, but may struggle in multiple capacities. They still have more positive traits than negative. These Pokemon are adaptable to the metagame.

C rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have some potency in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can threaten or check some portions of the metagame but often have large flaws that require more support. They often can only perform well in one role as multiple roles will expose their many flaws. They may have more negative traits than positive. These Pokemon have a hard time adapting with the metagame.

D rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have just enough potency to function in the STABmons metagame thanks to a small niche they hold. These Pokemon can't really threaten or check parts of the metagame outside their niche, or are so hindered in their role that another Pokemon almost always can do it better. Because of their flaws they may expose your team to unnecessary risk. These Pokemon rarely adapt with the metagame.

「S」
Reserved for Pokemon that are unmatched in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall large portions of the metagame on their own, and often in more than one capacity. With so few if any flaws holding them back they should always be considered over another Pokemon that performs in a similar role. These Pokemon define the metagame.

Kyurem-Black
Landorus-Therian
Thundurus-Incarnate


「A」
Reserved for Pokemon that are extremely potent in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall large portions of the metagame and have minor flaws that can be mitigated with the right support, if any. They can perform very well in more than one role or just excel in one so well they do it better than almost anything else. These Pokemon influence the metagame.

A+

Charizard (Mega X)
Charizard (Mega Y)
Clefable
Heatran
Hoopa-Unbound
Sableye
Sableye (Mega)
Serperior
Slowbro (Mega)
Terrakion
Weavile


A

Azumarill
Chansey
Diancie (Mega)
Excadrill

Ferrothorn
Garchomp
Gyarados (Mega)
Meloetta
Scizor
Scizor (Mega)
Tyranitar
Ursaring


A-

Aerodactyl
Blastoise (Mega)
Gengar
Gyarados
Jirachi
Manaphy
Porygon2
Quagsire
Rotom-Wash
Talonflame
Thundurus-Therian
Togekiss
Tornadus-Therian


「B」
Reserved for Pokemon that are still very potent in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall some portions of the metagame but might have flaws that require more support. They can perform very well in one role, but may struggle in multiple capacities. They still have more positive traits than negative. These Pokemon are adaptable to the metagame.

B+

Alakazam (Mega)
Beedrill (Mega)
Braviary
Celebi

Gardevoir (Mega)
Hippowdon
Klefki
Latias
Latias (Mega)
Latios
Magnezone

Raikou
Rotom-Heat
Sceptile (Mega)
Skarmory

Starmie
Stoutland
Suicune
Tyranitar (Mega)

Zapdos

B

Bisharp

Crawdaunt
Espeon
Garchomp (Mega)
Gliscor
Hydreigon
Krookodile
Lucario
Manectric (Mega)
Mew
Pidgeot (Mega)
Pinsir (Mega)
Rhyperior
Slowbro
Slowking
Snorlax
Swampert (Mega)
Togekiss

Venusaur (Mega)
Whimsicott


B-

Alakazam
Breloom
Chandelure

Cloyster
Cobalion
Conkeldurr
Empoleon
Goodra
Gothitelle
Heliolisk
Infernape
Jolteon
Kabutops
Metagross
Salamence
Sharpedo (Mega)
Tangrowth
Volcarona

Yanmega


「C」
Reserved for Pokemon that have some potency in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can threaten or check some portions of the metagame but often have large flaws that require more support. They often can only perform well in one role as multiple roles will expose their many flaws. They may have more negative traits than positive. These Pokemon have a hard time adapting with the metagame.

C+

C

C-
「D」
Reserved for Pokemon that have just enough potency to function in the STABmons metagame thanks to a small niche they hold. These Pokemon can't really threaten or check parts of the metagame outside their niche, or are so hindered in their role that another Pokemon almost always can do it better. Because of their flaws they may expose your team to unnecessary risk. These Pokemon rarely adapt with the metagame.

「E」

Everything else.


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Under debate:

Blacklisted:

Rules:
  • Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" with no explanation will not be tolerated.
  • No flaming and be respectful.
  • Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
 
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Josh

=P
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Mafia Champion
Wooo this is finally up.
#First post
Are you planning on editing in the lower ranks later/now?

Also, in my opinion Sableye could fit in S. It really does define the metagame, and it doesn't suffer at all from the recent update which is a big thing going for it. Dark Void, Parting Shot, Topsy Turvy, Will-o-Wisp, reliable recovery in Recover, bluffing being mega and messing with thundy/other taunters, potential to remove items with knock off, etc. It can even counter lead with taunt. In general Sableye has a lot of utility, benefits a ton from STABmons and fits in great in S rank. Your team isn't complete unless you can deal with Sableye.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Wooo this is finally up.
#First post
Are you planning on editing in the lower ranks later/now?

Also, in my opinion Sableye could fit in S. It really does define the metagame, and it doesn't suffer at all from the recent update which is a big thing going for it. Dark Void, Parting Shot, Topsy Turvy, Will-o-Wisp, reliable recovery in Recover, bluffing being mega and messing with thundy/other taunters, potential to remove items with knock off, etc. It can even counter lead with taunt. In general Sableye has a lot of utility, benefits a ton from STABmons and fits in great in S rank. Your team isn't complete unless you can deal with Sableye.
I mean I could see Sableye going to S as well. But a reason for it going back to A+ imo is the decrease of setup sweepers, decreasing it's utility of using Topsy Turvy. It still is great however.
 
So with the change of the stabbies, I'd like to personaly say that quite a lot prankster mons suchs as whimsicott should now have more potential, yes?
Which actually makes me think, has whimsicott had more appereance on the meta lately? Cause it is one of those spore pretty gud spore spammers and potential sanic mode geomancers that can run a bulky set and counter taunt normal topsy turvy sable.

I would personaly say that Sableye is fine on its current rank, even tho the meta didn't change the guy itself that much, the meta itself changed with the drops and changes that have reworked other mons have given it more hard time to predict what it is up against and thus give it slighty less harder time (is this landorus gona spam spikes and not care about being burned or will it perciple blade the shit out of me with band? for exsample if implying non mega sable)
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ya Sableye is fine in A+ imo. Here are some other noms I had in mind:

A+ to S
Mega Slowbro is amazing with Cosmic Power combined with Shell Armor. After a couple of boosts, it's nearly indestructible. It beats common threats like Landorus-T, Mega Charizard X, Kyreum-B without Fusion Bolt, and Terrakion. It does have checks in Sableye (Mega aswell) and Thundurus-I, but it still is a defining force in this meta that should definitely rise.

A+ to A
I really just find Hoopa-U underwhelming in the STABmons environment. Possibly due to the constant presence of priority and the faster trend of the meta in general, Hoopa-U to me really has a hard time fitting in. Dark Void and Parting Shot are nice, but not amazing on an 80 Speed mon. Just feel it's not that threatening like in OU.

The rest of the S-A rankings look fine. Will comment later when rest of list is posted...
 
I'll start with one of my personal favorite Pokemon in the meta - Mega Gardevoir



I think Mega Gardevoir deserves to be a solid B+. While it doesn't gain that much from STABmons (basically either Psystrike, Psycho Boost, or Healing Wish), it is still very effective at what it does - break teams. You might scoff at the idea of using Psycho Boost, but keep in mind that it's stronger than Hyper Voice, while Psystrike helps vs more specially defensive mons such as Chansey (who gets 3HKO'd by it). Psystrike is also the strongest Psychic STAB that doesn't drop your SpA like Psycho Boost does. Gardevoir can simply destroy teams by itself

The reason why I put it in B+ and not in the A's like in OU is because the meta is much more hostile towards it - obviously offense does work against it with its low physical defense. However, it doesn't simply die to offensive like you might think - its 100 speed isn't the worst thing around, and offensive teams rarely have a good switch-in once it gets inside. I think Mega Gardevoir fits the description for the 「B」rank very well.

I'll update the OP to reflect discussion of the B-Rank.
 
I don't know if it should be somewhere in the B rankings, but I'd like to point out that Exploud should probably get ranked for being the only Pokémon that still has Shell Smash + Scrappy Boomburst.
 
I'll start with one of my personal favorite Pokemon in the meta - Mega Gardevoir



I think Mega Gardevoir deserves to be a solid B+. While it doesn't gain that much from STABmons (basically either Psystrike, Psycho Boost, or Healing Wish), it is still very effective at what it does - break teams. You might scoff at the idea of using Psycho Boost, but keep in mind that it's stronger than Hyper Voice, while Psystrike helps vs more specially defensive mons such as Chansey (who gets 3HKO'd by it). Psystrike is also the strongest Psychic STAB that doesn't drop your SpA like Psycho Boost does. Gardevoir can simply destroy teams by itself

The reason why I put it in B+ and not in the A's like in OU is because the meta is much more hostile towards it - obviously offense does work against it with its low physical defense. However, it doesn't simply die to offensive like you might think - its 100 speed isn't the worst thing around, and offensive teams rarely have a good switch-in once it gets inside. I think Mega Gardevoir fits the description for the 「B」rank very well.

I'll update the OP to reflect discussion of the B-Rank.
Not sure about this, as I haven't used it all too much. However, I don't think it deserves B+ Rank. With Kyurem-B preying on its low Defense stat, Thundurus paralyzing it and crippling it, Landorus-T smacking it, getting FakeSpeed'ed to death, and having very high opportunity cost to using it, I just can't see it being that astounding. It may be hard to switch into, but it's such a glass cannon that I'm just not sure about... Do you have replays of it in action?

Now for some of my own nominations...

I believe that Celebi deserves to be B+ Rank for its excellent Baton Pass capabilities. While it does struggle with Kyurem-B and Weavile, it can in return set up on Mega Slowbro and win, wall Terrakion and a myriad of other attackers, and has the ability to turn ferocious monsters into even bigger beasts in just one turn. I do believe that Celebi is one of the best suited for Baton Pass'ing. On top of this, it's versatile, has solid recovery, and doesn't really need any tools bar /maybe/ Spore if you would like. It's easily a contender for A- as well, but I'll start small with just B+.

My boy Raikou needs to be in B+ as well. Raikou is by far the best Thundurus counter, outspeeds and paralyzes Kyurem-Black, and sits at a high enough Speed tier, with just the right bulk and firepower. Raikou doesn't gain anything bar Nuzzle for Assault Vest sets, but it's still a beast that has yet to have been tamed and deserves a high ranking to reflect that. Eevee suggested maybe even going to the A Ranks, but I do believe it has notable flaws, such as lack of recovery and how prone it is to being worn down, that hold it back from raising higher.

Another Electric-type lacking a ranking is Zapdos which should be put in B Rank. With an Assault Vest equipped, alongside Oblivion Wing and Pressure, Zapdos becomes a menace that not much likes to deal with. It has the perfect typing to wall a ton of Special Attackers and offer a free switch in and pivot on many Pokemon. However, Ice-types, the inability to actually inflict a lot of damage, and overall mediocracy make Zapdos not the hugest threat in the world. Nonetheless, however, it does deserve to be in B Rank.

Where is Hippowdon? Easily a B+ Pokemon, if not somewhere in the A Ranks. Here's some calcs to demonstrate its bulk:

+1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 360-426 (85.7 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 218-260 (51.9 - 61.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 306-362 (72.8 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just a few very hard hitting attacks that it can live. A great defensive typing, Sand Stream, and reliable recovery all make this Pokemon very good. I'm not quite sure what else to add, but seriously: once you use the hippo, you never stop! I seriously love this thing, and will probably make a case for it to raise up to A Rank in the near future. But for now, let's take what we can get.

Finally, Klefki needs to be placed in B Rank. With a wide arsenal of utility moves from Spikes, to Thunder Wave, to King's Shield, to Moonlight, to Foul Play, Klefki is one of the best supportive Pokemon in the tier. Checking Kyurem-B is cool, and countering Weavile. However, getting blasted by Mega Slowbro and being helpless against Mega Sableye make Klefki a bit iffy. Major moveslot syndrome is also a problem, since Klefki always seems to be missing that one thing it needs. Regardless, it deserves to be in B Rank for its excellent typing and utility it brings all in one, tiny moveslot.

That's all for now! I'll be back at a later time to fill out some of the B Ranks.
 
aw missed the opening :(
Anyways, nominating Thundurus-Therian to move from A- to either B+ or B. The fact that everything it wants to do, bar scarf or assault vest, is done better and more efficiently by its incarnate form means its nearly always outclassed. As an Assualt Vest user, which in general means as a Thundurus-I counter, its limited by its Stealth Rock weakness, and the fact that Raikou has better bulk and speed to pull it off. It works decently as a scarfer, but its frailty and the commonality of strong priority in the tier, and its typing limiting its switch-ins when it can't rcover through O-Wing means that it really isn't a top threat in the tier, nor is it extremely influential to it.
 
I don't have any replays yet, but I can provide some later since I'm using Garde on my team rn

Also out of the three mon you mentioned (Thundy-I, Lando-T, Kyu-B) only one of those outspeed Garde without a scarf, and the best Thundy-I can do is paralyze it or do 50% and die (hax excluded, although thundy-i needs a lot of hax to beat garde assuming both are healthy). It flat out OHKOs Kyu-B unless it invests heavily in Special Defense or uses an Assault Vest, while doing heavy damage to Lando-T. It can also elect to simply burn both of these threats, preventing them from being able to OHKO it (although they can 2HKO due to its fraility). FakeSpeed is a problem to it, yes, but that didn't stop Hoopa-U from being A+ - especially now that it's not so common, considering that set-up isn't that common and some of the more common one can take on FakeSpeed. I'm not saying its uncommon, because that would be lying, but I've seen less of it since.

EDIT: Also none of them can switch in comfortably

I agree with everything else unfixable said though - I'd even say Hippo should be A- as well.
 

baconbagon

free stabmons
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I fully support Garde to B+. Despite not receiving a ton of new moves from STABmons, it's already an exceptional wallbreaker in standard tiers, and Psystrike and Psycho Boost only help its case further. I've never found dealing with FakeSpeed to be too difficult, as with a reliable switch-in such as Rocky Helmet defensive Landorus-T I find wearing down FakeSpeeders is quite easy, especially with some hazard support.

Here's a replay (http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/stabmons-263035913) where Gardevoir absolutely demolishes a typical bulky offense team. Despite being forced out by Stoutland every time, the threat of an extremely powerful Hyper Voice persuaded ellipse to use Fake Out every time instead of doubling to Kyurem (apart from at the end). I find that Gardevoir's extreme wallbreaking prowess easily nets it a place in B+.
 

Scyther NO Swiping

Washed up former great
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Reserved for Pokemon that are still very potent in the STABmons metagame. These Pokemon can sweep or wall some portions of the metagame but might have flaws that require more support. They can perform very well in one role, but may struggle in multiple capacities. They still have more positive traits than negative. These Pokemon are adaptable to the metagame.
Snorlax for B+ (best belly speeder in the game atm, just give it a turn to set up. Needs support for sableye as well as other faster e-speeders and such)
Rotom H for B (fairly decent scarf pivot, a lot of variety of STAB fire moves to choose from, can play a variety of roles)
Cloyster for B+ (let it set up and it is capable of sweeping/crippling many teams) I've been using this with great success, and it is capable of dealing with the S rank mons if it has set up, and I've been seeing it a lot more.
Togekiss for B- (geokiss loses its best moves with changes but still can hit hard, also togekiss is a good counter to chomp)
Stoutland for B- (loses belly speed, but still one of the better belly speed mons with scrappy)
Kanga for C (okay fake speed mon, has options to set up with PUP, and recover with drain punch, and more coverage than stoutland, but a little underwhelming)
Pidgeot Mega for B-
Celebi for B - still has a variety of moves that it can run, and multiple roles that it can play well depending on the team.
Skarm for B - still has great defensive stats, still able to stand up to some top offensive threats.
These are all the ones I've really used a lot and have a strong opinion on.
 
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Eevee General, my thoughts on your proposed list:

Mega Venusaur probably belongs in a solid B Rank. One cool perk it has is the ability to outlive and beat Psytrike-less Mega Slowbro, which is reason in itself to give it a niche. I've found, however, that Mega Venusaur is really hard to justify use of bar specific roles. The role I've found myself using it for (and do note I have not used it on multiple teams, just one) is to check Weavile and Serperior at the same time, two large threats to somewhat frailer, slower teams. The set of use I've been finding success with is Toxic Spikes / Synthesis / Giga Drain / Sludge Bomb since it offers a unique niche in Toxic Spikes, while still providing a sturdy wall capable of withstanding powerful forces. What holds it back from B+, however, is its general difficulty with the majority of the tier. Its matchup against Heatran, Kyurem-B, and Thundurus are all unfavorable. Being a defensive Grass-type in a metagame that isn't very kind to them is somewhat hard in my eyes. Nonetheless, Mega Venusaur is a really neat Pokemon that deserves no lower than B Rank.

One of my personal favorites, Mega Pidgeot probably deserves B Rank as well. While it is powerful, fast, and hits like a truck with Boomburst (or cripples with Sing), it still faces some glaring weaknesses that hold it back from being a top tier threat. Firstly, with the prevalence of Weavile, Pidgeot is severely hindered. Another glaring issue is its Speed before Mega Evolving. If it doesn't Mega Evolve safely, things like Terrakion and Mega Diancie outspeed it naturally, so it is risky to use later in the match if not evolved. This makes it almost a necessity to Mega Evolve as soon as possible. It also faces competition as a Mega Evolution itself, since other Mega Evolutions are also just as powerful. Mega Pidgeot does carve its niche out though, however, and it does carve it well. I just can't realistically call Mega Pidgeot a B+ Pokemon, despite how much I love using the little bird. For now, I'd like to see it in B Rank. Perhaps as the metagame evolves, B+ can be an option!pk

I've not had the most experience with Alakazam in the current metagame, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I could see it potentially fitting into B- Rank simply because, while it is certainly powerful, it's so so frail and struggles against a lot of the tier. With common Pokemon, namely Weavile, Jirachi, and Mega Sableye stopping Alakazam cold, it just struggles to break through a lot of the tier or really do any work versus bulkier teams. However, I do believe B- Rank is fitting for it because Life Orb Psystrike alongside Magic Guard are two wonderful assets to any team, and its high Speed lets it outpace common offensive Pokemon, such as Serperior, Terrakion, and Mega Diancie, and smack them with a powerful hit. One other problem I see with Alakazam is the struggle it faces to stand out as an offensive Psychic-type when Mega Slowbro and Hoopa-U are both in the tier, and both have offensive ways that give Alakazam competition. Perhaps someone who has used it more than I have could comment!

Slowbro seems difficult to justify using, in all honesty. What does it have over Mega Slowbro bar Regenerator, which, while it is a huge difference, doesn't seem like enough to justify its use. Slowbro just does everything worse than its Mega form bar a purely defensive set with Regenerator, and even then I'm not sure I'd use this over Slowking because it just doesn't seem worth it. Slowbro is overwhelmed by Weavile, something its Mega form can say otherwise to. If I were to give it a rank, I would place it in C+ Rank, not in the B Ranks. Overall, I feel that Slowking is a better defensive Water-type non-Mega, and Mega Slowbro is better overall. It's unlike Mega Sableye and Sableye in which both are great, and do perform separate roles; instead, they perform similar roles with a few key differences but that don't allow Slowbro to stand out. Though, I've also only faced this a few times, and have not had as great of experience with it as others might have. So probably someone who has more experience with Slowbro should offer advice.

However, Slowking I believe earns a spot in B- Rank since it has access to one crucial tool that Slowbro lacks: Dragon Tail. This enables Slowking to actually force threats out and maintain entry hazard pressure. Its Special bulk is also pretty sick, and I find it allows it to go well in tandem with physical walls (namely Hippowdon and Garchomp) much easier than Slowbro, which clashes with them. Slowking's set of Dragon Tail / Future Sight / Scald / Thunder Wave is really intriguing to me, but I believe that Assault Vest sets are also quite viable. Slowking isn't above B- simply because Kyurem-B, Weavile, and even Serperior walk right over it. The top offensive threats can break Slowking, but Slowking does have the niche of being able to take on special attackers that simply can't break through it thanks to Regenerator. I do believe that Slowking is better than Slowbro in the current metagame, but honestly not by much. Thus, I believe the rank should reflect that.

A Pokemon that I cannot speak much on is Magnezone, so I won't talk about it since I've not used it or seen it much. Just from cursory knowledge, I'd place it in B Rank, but I really have no opinion on the matter.

Ah my good buddy Cloyster. While Cloyster is dangerous, I just don't see it being highly placed. It's so easy to overwhelm with Kyurem-B, Serperior, Thundurus, Landorus-T, Hoopa-U, and basically every other offensive Pokemon. Even if it runs Focus Sash, it will get picked off by FakeSpeed of some sort easily. So, basically, it gets one kill, cool. It can't really effectively sweep well built teams unless you get extremely lucky, so I don't think you can justify it being high. Personally, I'd place it in C+ Rank since, under the right circumstances, it is very threatening; however, these circumstances are incredibly difficult to set up. It's one of those Pokemon that seems really effective on paper, but in battle it just falls flat. Running Focus Sash means it necessitates entry hazard removal to be effective, and even then it can be unreliable. Cloyster is just such a shaky Pokemon really, and I can't see it in the B Ranks at all. Maybe when King's Shield was allowed, but not anymore.

Rest in peace, Kangaskan. I just... I don't know what this has to justify using over Stoutland. Maybe Sucker Punch? Drain Punch? I just I don't know why you would use this thing over the much more reliable Stoutland. Maybe C Rank? I'm personally not sure, since I really do not use it and I don't see justification to use it when Stoutland is so so much better than it is. That's all I'll say for now, since I can't form a final opinion really.

I'm personally a fan of Starmie and could easily see it in B Rank. With access to a Rapid Spin on a non-Normal-type, it already has a carved niche. Plus, its high Speed tier, power, and coverage make it an offensive threat to be afraid of. I'm personally a fan of All-Out Attacker Starmie, as I just don't find defensive sets to be all that viable. Comparing Starmie to Slowbro is a bad idea, in case you were thinking of it, since they perform entirely separate roles. Starmie's a force to be reckoned with nonetheless, outspeeding Serperior by just two points and smacking it with Ice Beam, something that not many Water-types. Starmie also outspeeds Terrakion, beats it with Scald, and can even take a Close Combat! So Starmie is a really neat Pokemon in my eyes, and I encourage people to try it out.

Not used Espeon, so I'm not going to comment on it at all. Nor have I used Snorlax either. Skipping! Maybe C+ and B- for those two.

I'm an avid fan of Zapdos and believe it should be ranked in B+. Zapdos counters Thundurus effectively, offers utility in the form of great bulk and typing all around, and is one of if not the best Assault Vest users thanks to its semi-powerful STAB Oblivion Wing to recover. The reason I would place Zapdos so high is due to the utility it offers in just one teamslot. Some of the utilities it provides is countering Landorus-T, Thundurus, and Serperior, while also being a great pivot, and being an overall great paralysis spreader. I'd not put in Zapdos any lower than B+, and I really don't think it would be a reach to put it all the way in A-. Much vivid rave for Zapdos; I just really love this Pokemon. However, it does have some glaring flaws such as Stealth Rock weakness, being prone to being overwhelmed by things like Kyurem-B, Weavile, and Terrakion walking right over Zapdos. However, they also have to worry about Nuzzle being a problem to them.

One Pokemon I'm actually really surprised at how effective in the current metagame is Mew. With powerful threats Terrakion, Thundurus, and Kyurem-B, not everything can handle them. However, Mew actually has a great defensive typing in the current metagame bar the obvious Weavile. Mew's great 100 bulk all-around and still boosts it around with Will-O-Wisp by crippling opposing attackers. However, Mew does have an issue with being overpressured. Being incapable of doing anything versus a lot of Mega Pokemon, and Heatran in particular, is not a good attribute. Mew's standard Defog / Roost / Will-O-Wisp / Knock Off makes an appearance in STABmons and I've found myself to be quite liking it. Although it fits only certain playstyles, and can be tough to effectively make the most of, I do believe it warrants Mew a slot in the B Rank. Let's not forget that Mew has the widest movepool known to man, bar Smeargle, so it really can do a lot more than meets the eye!

Not used Togekiss, Yanmega, Gliscor, or Skarmory in the current metagame, so no opinion there. I would likely say C+, B-, B, B in that order if anything, but I'm not an expert on these and haven't had enough experience to make a fair judgement.

Raikou needs to be one peg behind Zapdos always, in my opinion; thus making it a B Rank Pokemon. The reasoning behind this is that Ground-type attacks are effective, no reliable recovery, and inability to check Fighting-types as well as Zapdos. The real kicker is the lack of recovery bar the subpar Parabolic Charge. Despite how much I do love Raikou, I just feel like it's not that effective currently. Besides no recovery, Raikou's biggest competition is just simply better. Its Assault Vest set is good and all, but it's just lesser than Raikou in my opinion.

Will comment on the rest later, as I'm tired and this is an essay lol...

Summary:
  • Mega Venusaur: B
  • Mega Pidgeot: B
  • Alakazam: B-
  • Slowbro: C+
  • Slowking: B-
  • Magnezone: B
  • Cloyster: C+
  • Espeon: C+
  • Snorlax: B-
  • Zapdos: B+
  • Mew: B
  • Togekiss: C+
  • Yanmega: B-
  • Gliscor: B
  • Skarmory: B
  • Raikou: B

Things I have not touched upon, but will maybe explain later. Here's what I've concluded from these Pokemon so far.
  • Suicune: B+
  • Celebi: B+
  • Mega Sceptile: B
  • Mega Gardevoir: B+
  • Mega Aggron: B
  • Mega Manectric: B+
  • Crawdaunt: B-
  • Salamence: C
  • Metagross: C
  • Latias: B+
  • Mega Latias: B+
  • Latios: B+
  • Mega Garchomp: C+
  • Hippowdon: A-
  • Rotom-Heat: B
  • Manaphy: B+
  • Stoutland: A-
  • Conkeldurr: B-
  • Whimsicott: B
  • Krookodile: B
  • Gothitelle: B-
  • Bisharp: B
  • Braviary: B+
  • Hydreigon: B
  • Pyroar: C
  • Heliolisk: C+
  • Klefki: B+

Hopefully this helps fill out the B Ranks.

:)
 
Let me touch upon some of those mons

Yo, where's the love for Mega Alakazam? Personally I think Mega Zam is much better than normal Zam - it's only a bit weaker than LO Zam while being much faster. The only real reason why I can see someone using LO Zam over Mega Zam is because they've already used up their mega - granted, that's a very valid reason, but it's definitely the only one. Sash Zam is also cool for revenging, although I always find it to be too weak. It doesn't get as much as other mons, but what it does get is very nice. On LO / Mega you have Psystrike - no more debating whether to go Psyshock or Psychic! However, you can forgo this (especially notable for Sash) and use Healing Wish, sacking Zam when it is no longer needed and getting another member healed up. The way I see it, Zam should be B- and Mega Zam should be B. It's physical frailty in both forms sucks a lot in a meta where ESpeed is common, but both have very good speed tiers - Mega Zam even outspeeds Weavile and blows it back with Focus Blast or Dazzling Gleam.

Easily B+. It's one of the few fast Water-types in the meta, meaning it's a prime abuser of Water Spout. Not only that, but Starmie is very versatile too - it can Spin, go full offensive, use a utility set or even go defensive. It's movepool is solid, and gets even better with STABmons - you can go for Water Spout + Psystrike, or reach into Psychic's bag of goodies. Somethink like 3 Attacks + Healing Wish doesn't sound too bad. It's held back by its low HP stat and mediocre SpA - it only really hits hard with Analytic as they switch out. It's also prey for Weavile and Thundy-I (keep in mind that you outspeed if you're max speed timid, so it has to TWave you first, but it's still annoying and you can't switch in well at all( but its expansive movepool and great speed tier are amazing.

The new change has been a mixed bag for Sceptile. On one hand, it's no longer a liability against teams that have GeoKiss. On the other hand, it can no longer run Spore + Seed Flare. It also still faces fierce competition from Serperior, who not only gets Spore + a powerful Grass STAB, but also doesn't eat up a Mega Slot and gets stronger the more it uses Leaf Storm. However, Mega Sceptile has things over Serperior - namely, it has more immediate power, has a secondary STAB, cannot be paralyzed by Thunder Wave, and is much faster. These features put Sceptile at B- for me - I can see both Spore + 3 Attacks and All-Out Offense with Seed Flare being common sets. Too bad it loses to Ice Shard Weavile, but its insane speed helps it a lot.

B+, Scrappy FakeSpeed is really nice, and it has decent power at 110. It still faces fierce competition from Ursaring (There are only 3 things Scrappy FakeSpeed help against that are relevant - Gengar, Hoopa, and Sableye [Mega], and Ursaring already beats Sableye [Mega] thanks to Guts), especially since Ursaring can also BellySpeed unlike Stoutland. I think its worth mentioning its access to Rapid Spin - Spin ESpeed was my favorite doge set before the change, and it's untouched in the new change.

B+ most definitely. I can even see this thing in A honestly. It does the exact same things it does in OU, except now it has a lot of other toys to play with. At the very least it has a direct power boost with Gear Grind and a second form of priority in Bullet Punch. Status is whats it might use the most though - Parting Shot, Dark Void, Shift Gear, and Switcheroo are all great tools to have. It's not even that weak to the meta - Shift Gear has the niche of not being stopped by Lando-T. Parting Shot is cute if you manage to hit Sableye [Mega] with it - free +3 yes please.
 
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I'm just gonna dump these here. Help me sort them into B?
B Faces a lot of competition for the mega slot, but a solid mon all round. Good bulk and typing. Can run either offensive or defensive sets. One of the best Toxic Spikers in the meta. Checks Mega Diancie, Azumarill, Serperior, Mega Blastoise, Clefable, etc
B+ Not quite as good as before since Boomburst + Sing is no longer legal, but still a big threat.
(mega) A- Hardly anyone uses Mega Alakazam for some reason, but it is really good. Outspeeds most of the meta. Can nuke things with Psycho Boost or just hit hard with Psystrike. Can run a fast Lunar Dance.
B Good physical wall. The mega is a lot better though (especially since you can hold off mega evolving to make use of Regenerator). I've had fun with a Choice Specs set which is pretty effective though.
B+ The Assault Vest set is one of my favourite sets in the meta. AV + Regenerator + Mirror Coat is such a good combo. Future Sight + Dragon Tail is also pretty cool.
B+ Still good at trapping steels. Can check Thundurus without Focus Blast/Superpower too which is useful.
C+ Shell Smash sets are ok. I haven't really seen one put that much work in since the King's Rock ban though.
C Stoutland is superior as a ScrappySpeed(/spin) mon
B+ Fast (outspeeding Thundurus and Serperior is especially nice) with decent power, good STABs and useful coverage options. One of the better rapid spinners in the meta (thanks to Reflect Type and Recover). Sub Calm Mind and Lunar Dance sets are also pretty good.
B+ Shell Smash + Stored Power sets are over-rated but can still be quite effective. I've found that LO and Choice Specs sets are very effective though.
B- Has the bulk to pull off BellySpeed sets. Curse sets can be hard to take down. Can be a decent cleric (which actually has some offensive presence).
Haven't got much experience with this. Checking Lando-T and Scizor seems useful though.
Haven't got much experience with this either.
B nowhere near as good as it was before, but still a decent mon. Geomancy + Air Slash is pretty effective (and frustrating to face)
B- Two great abilities. I've found Choice Specs + Tinted Lens to be effective, but I could see Tail Glow + Speed Boost being a good cleaner.
B faces a lot of competition from Landorus-T as a Ground/Flying type but Poision Heal (and also Baton Pass) give it a niche
B+ Still a good check to most physical attackers in the metagame and a reliable hazard setter/Defogger. Can be a bit too passive though.
A- A good Thundurus check for offensive teams. AV + Nuzzle is cool. Can also do the usual Calm Mind or Specs sets.
B Doesn't really gain anything from STABmons, but the standard Crocune set is still very good. It's always useful to have a sleep absorber.
B I've found that Celebi's useful qualities (wide support movepool, strong STABs, Spore, decent resistances) are often overshadowed by the fact that it is weak to the STAB of almost every top mon in the meta.
(mega) A- Has to choose between either Spore or stronger STAB (Seed Flare or Power Whip) now, but it is still a threat either way. SubSeed sets also work nicely with Spore.
(mega) B+ As others have said, Mega Gardevoir is very good. Hyper Voice and Psystrike allow it to break balanced and stall teams pretty easily. And nothing on offence really wants to switch into it. Trace before Mega Evolving can also be pretty useful
C+
Not as good as the mega, but Geomancy and Choice Scarf sets are not too bad.
C Shift Gear sets can be difficult to revenge kill due to its high bulk and good defensive typing. In more defensive roles it still suffers from a lack of reliable recovery though
A Doesn't really gain anything from STABmons, but still great. High speed and power + Volt Switch for momentum.
B+ Hits a lot of the meta super-effectively with Adaptability boosted Sucker Punch and Water Shuriken.
B An under-rated but versatile mon. Works well defensively thanks to Intimidate, Roost, decent bulk and good defensive typing. Choice Scarf or Dragon Dance Moxie sets benefit from having good Flying STAB in the form of Dragon's Ascent. Can run very effective special sets too.
C+ Quite good as a Shift Gear user (lots of coverage moves, Clear Body, FakeSpeed resistance). But relatively low speed and weaknesses to common attacks like Ground, Dark, and Fire can make setting up difficult.
(mega) B+ Huge Bulk, good typing and speed. Sets with Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Barrier, or Amnesia can be difficult to take down.
B Not as good as the mega, but a good Defog or Lunar Dance user with decent offensive presence.
B Hits hard with Psystrike and Draco Meteor/Spacial Rend.
B generally not as good as regular Garchomp (especially since it takes up your mega slot), but can run mixed sets better. And Dragon Dance sets can be very threatening, especially under Sand.
B+ Good mixed bulk and Slack Off. Reliable Spikes or Stealth Rock setter.
B+ Useful typing + levitate allow it to check a lot of commonly used mons (Heatran, Landorus, Zard Y, Thundurus, Scizor). Lava Plume is a nice addition. Scarf Eruption is also a cool set.
B+ Only really gains Origin Pulse, but Tail Glow sets are still very threatening.
A Definitely hurt by the loss of set-up moves like Shell Smash and Belly Drum, but still the premier ScrappySpeed mon.
C- The standard Assault Vest set isn't terrible, but with all the Flying and Psychic mons running around the meta it often struggles to do much.
C+ Prankster Spore, Stun Spore, Encore, and Memento are nice. Geomancy set is useable but does not have the best coverage.
B- Moxie sets gain a high BP STAB in Precipice Blades and strong Priority in Sucker Punch. Intimidate + Parting Shot also makes for a decent pivot.
B- Not as good as in standard due to the abundance of high base power STAB attacks and priority attacks, but still useful if there are particular mons that need taking out.
B Shift Gear sets are ok, but I've found the standard Swords Dance sets to be more effective as you have Sucker Punch anyway. Still good because of Defiant and spammable STABs.
A Defiant + FakeSpeed is a great combo. Very nice on hazard stacking teams.
B- Decent wallbreaker.
C+ Good speed tier and strong STAB attacks (Boomburst and Blue Flare). Frail and priority weak though
B- Similar to Pyroar, but slightly better imo as it has Volt Switch for gaining momentum on incoming special walls and it outspeeds base 108 mons. And Dry Skin gives it more opportunities to switch in.
B+ Prankster T Wave is good for emergencies. Good spikes setter with lots of useful resistances. Moonblast for Mega-Sableye.

And anything else?
(mega) B+ Strong Sucker Punch and Knock Off. Lots of coverage options. Reliable Stealth Rocker. Good Dragon Dancer.
(mega) B+ frail but hits extremely hard with Gunk Shot. Powerful U-turn too.
(mega) B- Doesn't gain that much from STABmons but being able to U-turn into Magnezone is nice. Still hits hard thanks to Aerilate.
(mega) B Base 150 attack plus high BP STABs (Crabhammer and Precipice Blades). Has Water Shuriken for priority. Deadly under rain but still effective without it. Curse sets are pretty good.
B- Fast mixed attacker with good high BP STABs (V-create, Blue Flare, Close Combat, etc). Can run defensive sets with Slack Off and Sacred Fire.
B-
Scarf Eruption is very strong and spammable. Normal immunity is useful. Good abilities.
B- Scald + King's Shield is a nice combination. Pretty reliable as a Stealth Rock or Defog user. Decent defensive typing.
B- Typing allows it to check a lot of threatening mons (Scizor, Tyranitar, Weavile, Kyurem-B, etc). Can threaten stuff itself thanks to Shift Gear.
B- Weak to a lot of S rank and A rank mons. But good bulk + Regenerator and a nice movepool.
B
- Requires a lot of support and struggles a bit with priority, but Tail Glow and Quiver Dance sets are both very threatening.
(mega) B- Strong STABs which hit most of the meta very hard in Crabhammer and Crunch. Speed Boost pre-mega. Or can Dark Void if you go down the status route to get round some of its usual checks.
B- Really good with rain support. Quite good without it. Water + Rock is a good STAB combination.
B Special sets with Nasty Plot and Secret Sword are great. As are physical Shift Gear sets.
B- 90 base Attack is pretty low, but Ninjask is fast enough that it can afford to run Adamant and its STAB attacks have high BP (Dragon Ascent, Megahorn) so offensive sets are actually pretty threatening. Frail and very weak to SR though.


Edit - A few mons I forgot about/have been using since:
B Great STAB combination (Precipice Blades + Diamond Storm). Checks Thundurus, FakeSpeed, Talonflame. Can run Rock Head + Head Smash.
B Really benefits from gaining reliable recovery (Heal Order). Checks most physical attackers in the meta (notably Kyurem-B). Access to all entry hazards and can Rapid Spin.
B- Doesn't gain much from STABmons, but Goodra checks a lot of difficult-to-handle mons in one team slot (Thundurus-I, Blastoise, Zard Y, Serperior, Heatran, etc).
B- Technician Storm Throw hits hard. Beats common stall cores pretty easily (Lando/Sableye/Chansey/etc).
 
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Just bumping this to say that I'll give it a week before posting a definitive B-Rank list

I'll also comment on more stuff later - busy atm
 

EV

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What do you all think about condensing the ranks to just high/low or +/neutral? Is there enough separation to have 3 sub-ranks per letter (bar S and D)? I find it's more reflective of a rank to say "It performs at the optimal level of this rank" (neutral) or "it performs better than other Pokemon within this rank but not enough to move it into the next rank" (plus).
 
What do you all think about condensing the ranks to just high/low or +/neutral? Is there enough separation to have 3 sub-ranks per letter (bar S and D)? I find it's more reflective of a rank to say "It performs at the optimal level of this rank" (neutral) or "it performs better than other Pokemon within this rank but not enough to move it into the next rank" (plus).
I like having B+ / B / B- personally. However, we should be doing it how PU does it: organizing by viability, not by name. Here's how I would see that as:
「S」

Kyurem-Black
Thundurus-Incarnate
Landorus-Therian

「A」

A+

Slowbro (Mega)
Weavile
Charizard (Mega X)
Hoopa-Unbound
Sableye
Sableye (Mega)
Terrakion
Charizard (Mega Y)
Clefable
Heatran

A

Garchomp

Scizor (Mega)
Azumarill
Chansey
Diancie (Mega)

Ursaring
Excadrill

Gyarados (Mega)
Ferrothorn
Scizor
Tyranitar
Meloetta

A-

Jirachi
Serperior
Porygon2
Blastoise (Mega)

Tornadus-Therian
Talonflame
Gengar
Rotom-Wash
Thundurus-Therian
Gyarados

Aerodactyl
Quagsire
I feel this more accurately puts Pokemon in order of effectiveness and viability. Though it does increase our work, it also sparks more discussion and will ultimately make the list 1000x more concise. Also, mind you my list is a rough draft / guesstimate, and it's definitely not end all, so feel free to discuss whatever.
 
While I personally still think we shouldn't have A+/A/A- (I like A+ and A better), I do like the idea of placing them in order rather than viability. I can see it getting tricky the deeper we go down the list, but it would be fun
 

EV

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Then what's the point of ranks if everything is in order from most to least? We might as well just have a giant list with no rank in between. Plus I don't think I can handle having them listed out of alphabetical order.
 
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