Metagame STABmons

Funbot28 said:
Now with OMWC rolling around....


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version 3.0
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Welcome to O.T.R.! The council has been hard at work gathering intel about dangerous threats roaming the STABmons ladder. In this post, you'll see what threats we are keeping a close watch on, and the likelihood of said threats to be banned based on their distances. After a few days of laddering and discussion from the date of this post, the council will reconvene and announce which of the following targets have been eliminated.

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Thundurus <5m
An amazing setup sweeper and wallbreaker with it's Nasty Plot and Mixed Defiant sets respectively. Thundurus has recently demonstrated its choke-hold on the metagame due to the lackluster amount of counterplay there can be towards it. A high Speed stat in combination with the ability to shut down defensive threats via Taunt and setup boosts enables Thundurus to threaten both offensive and defensive playstyles alike. The council believes this to be the most pressing suspect at the moment.

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Terrakion <15m
Terrakion is another amazing wallbreaker that takes advantage of its great offensive STAB combo to nearly threaten every defensive wall in the tier. Boosting sets utilizing a Choice Band or Swords Dance + a STAB Z-Move turns Terrakion into one of the most difficult threats to switch into in the tier without resorting to niche checks such as Palossand. It does get outspeed by faster threats such as Mega Lopunny, Aerodactyl, and Greninja, however Terrakion's dominance over more defensive teams is why we believe it should be looked at.

[distant threat detection - additional reconnaissance required]

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Ash-Greninja < 30m
Ash-Greninja may have a harder time transforming into it's Ash forme in standard play at times due to the lackluster power before transforming. However, in STABmons it can abuse its new access to moves such as Nasty Plot, Water Spout, and even Steam Eruption to have a much more easier time setting up. Even offensive checks may be taken out via Water Shuriken if they have been weakened enough. Once it nabs a KO, Ash-Greninja may lack many defensive checks besides hard counters such as Tapu Fini, Tangrowth, and Tapu Bulu. However, it may still have a difficult time transforming with the aforementioned threats present, which is why it is a suspect worth debating upon.

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Pidgeot-Mega < 50m
Mega Pidgeot has always been a a great mega choice in the STABmons metagame due to its access to reliable Sleep inducer in Sing alongside a powerful spammable STAB in Boomburst alongside coverage in Heat Wave. With this in mind, Mega Pidgeot can break down even its defensive checks if luck is on its side, and can still pivot out against its check with U-turn if it struggles. Still, pokemon such as Tyranitar, Heatran, Aerodactyl, and Celesteela still prove to be great answers to it which is why it is a suspect with a greater distance.

Leave your thoughts in the thread about the above suspects in mind. Council feedback will be given once significant discussion has been acquired.
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I would like to share my opinion about these threats :
thundurus.png
Like I said months ago, Thundurus-I is broken and have very few to no switch-ins. 2 sets with different checks and it can be hard to determined what Thundurus is running and your would-be check might end up being too weakened in the long run.
terrakion.png
Terrakion is hard to deal with defensively, as they were only total of 21 pokemon that can resist Rock/Fighting combination. 4 of them were Ubers. The others were Doublade, Golurk, Palossand, Claydol,Toxicroak, Nidoqueen and Nidoking. Doublade's lack of recovery move and the inability of using Leftovers means it can't switch on repeated attacks, considering its low HP. And the rest were straight-up unviable or just a niche. Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade can resist both too, but there are better Mega to used, and i rarely encountered Mega Medicham to be honest.

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Greninja does need some support to work effectively and after transforming, its quite threatening. I still don't know much despite i'm having a nightmare when facing this, especially against someone who happened to be one of councils here.

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I feel like i wanted a Sleep Talk user against this, but I'm still lacking of opinions on this yet. But if you're going to suspect this, then Its Mega Pidgeot over Sing because banning Sing is too much of a complex ban to me, Only Mega Pidgeot reliably used this thanks to No Guard, and Sing has 55% accuracy when used by other.
 
Some viability nominations and some sets

Mega Altaria A- --> B+
While it still serves as a solid tank in the current metagame and its resistances to Greninja's STAB attacks serves it very well, it just doesn't have the speed or power to be an A rank Pokemon any more in my opinion. It has to pick between hitting Celesteela and Ferrothorn and hitting Pex and Heatran (unless it goes mixed), all very common Pokemon. While its typing serves it well overall giving key water, fire, and dragon resists, it just isn't needed on teams. I would argue Sylveon mostly outclasses it besides the aforementioned resists.

Magnezone A- --> B+/B
I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a Magnezone. It has almost no impact on the current metagame. While I know usage shouldn't really be used as an argument, it says something that people feel safe not running Shed Shell on their Celesteelas nowadays. I feel like the removal of Celesteela and Ferrothorn, which is really all Zone does, is better achieved by Pokemon such as Heatran or Marowak-Alola that can steal momentum, reset hazards, or nuke switchins, even if they don't actually trap.

Sableye-Mega UR --> B-?
I'm not quite sure how this isn't on the viability rankings yet (other than the rankings generally being neglected). It's the only bulky Magic Bouncer, one of the relatively few true Zygarde answers with Spectral Thief, and overall a good utility pick for teams. It can slow pivot with Parting Shot, Knock items off, burn, keep hazards off your side of the field, and act as an anti-setup mon (not all at once tho). It has some 4mss and passivity issues. It honestly fits best on stall as always, but stall is not a dominant playstyle right now.
Lol I'm blind it's fine where it is

Chandelure B --> B-/C+
I find Chandelure incredibly hard to fit on teams. It is so incredibly Tyranitar weak its not funny, and cant do anything to Chansey besides tricking it. It also hates Aerodactyl and Rotom-W, and is really predictable. The only real niche I see for it is on webs teams, where the speed is relevant over Marowak-A, and it can act as one of the only decent unbanned spinblockers. But as webs isn't very good right now I don't think that's worth B, especially when compared to mons such as Alolawak, Araquanid, and Mega Tyranitar

Sylveon B+ --> A-
I can't stress enough what good glue this Pokemon is. It's one of the only reliable special Thundurus counters, hazard removal, Cleric support, and difficult to switch into all at the same time. I would argue that it is nigh mandatory for any balance team not running Chansey.

Magearna
A --> B+
I have tried to use Magearna a number of times, and each time it's disappointed. reliance on either Moonlight or Pain Split is painful, and while its tying is magical defensively it doesn't do much against the to threats of the tier like Lando-T, or even things it theoretically has the type advantage against like Greninja-Ash and even Aerodactyl (which just smashes through with Earthquake). Perhaps I'm trying to use it wrong and Shift Gear sets are the way to go or something but I haven't found defensive Magearna at all worthy of A tier.

Now sets! Most of these I thought of for WCOM and they never actually got used.
Zygarde @ Steelium Z / Leftovers
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Tail
- Dragon Dance / Coil
- Thousand Arrows
- Shore Up

This set is designed to take out some common counters to the SubDD set that everyone uses, namely Altaria and Sylveon. You don't really need Steelium, but at the same time, you really don't want to be relying on that accuracy. You could run Coil instead (still run max Speed so you outpace +Speed Altaria) which also fixes your accuracy issues. Actually I'ma slash that.

Tapu Bulu @ Leftovers
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Horn Leech
- Spiky Shield
- Swords Dance / Bulk Up
- Superpower

Tapu Bulu is honestly very underrated. I used this as part of a Bulu/Pex core, which used Bulu to weaken Earthquakes for Pex and Pex to set Toxic Spikes for Bulu to stall out the other team on. Bulu needs a lot of support in order for it to work well. You need to be able to punish switches to Steela especially, but also the other common Flying types. Swords Dance is a better option than Bulk Up in my opinion because you can boost past stuff like Ferrothorn as well as abuse Grassy Terrain turns more efficiently, but if that's not an issue Bulk Up allows for superior set-up in exchange for taking longer.

Stuff like Band Bulu is also good, but don't forget that basically every Bulu set hates hates hates Celesteela, which is a godmon.

Gallade-Mega (M) @ Galladite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Mach Punch
- Close Combat
- Photon Geyser / Knock Off / Ice Punch

This was devised as an offensive Terrakion answer, pure and simple. It isn't as good as Medicham-Mega overall, but they are honestly not very similar in how they play. That ten base speed and access to Swords Dance turns Gallade-Mega into a potential sweeper, while Medicham has to be satisfied with murdering everything without having to set up. It is unfortunately going to be walled by something no matter what you bring. Knock Off can hit Psychic types (and Ghosts), Ice Punch deals with Lando-T and other Flying types, and Photon Geyser is the most powerful final option, being STAB, and covers Unaware users and Fairies (especially Fini, who resists everything else I mentioned).

But I'm getting distracted. What this really does is resist both of Terrakion's STAB attacks (it gets 3hkod at +0 and should never be taking +2 attacks), outspeed, and OHKO back. It can abuse predicted switches to set up for a sweep, but obviously don't risk your Gallade if its your Terrak check. What stands out most to me is the resistance to Terrak's priority, which most faster Pokemon lack.

Dragalge @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Core Enforcer
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

I don't actually remember where I got the idea to run Dragalge from so if I'm stealing your idea let me know. It hits hard with good coverage and good special bulk and good typing. It can find switchins against grass types (core with Zygarde maybe?) and non-Chansey switchins are pretty uncommon. There's probably some speed tier it can hit but I don't care enough to find it. 140 evs outpaces 0 speed Steela and Ttar and also beats Sylveon though so that might be a good place idk.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Earth Plate / Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature / Jolly Nature
- Gravity
- Precipice Blades
- Swords Dance
- Dragon Ascent

This Landorus-Therian is designed to take out its two most common answers: Celesteela and Rotom. Both of them go from resisting / being immune to both STABs to being weak to one of them in Gravity, which allows you to do this
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 396-468 (99.7 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 386-456 (127.3 - 150.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I designed this set to be a partner to Webs Araquanid but in practice I've found that core a little clunky to actually get working, given that with Webs + Gravity + Swords Dance you need three turns of set-up. With Webs Adamant is clearly the better nature, and I think it's still better without them (you get that nice OHKO on Steela for instance), but Jolly Groundium is an option to also get that OHKO on Steela, and you still usually get your Rotom OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Precipice Blades vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 290-344 (95.7 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

I wouldn't necessarily recommend trying to set up both Swords Dance and Gravity at the same time unless your opponent is playing very poorly and allowing you free turns. Gravity is short, and SD then Gravity has its issues as well (eg they probably went to their check then killed you). Fortunately if their answer is Celesteela you actually can set up both and go to town.
 
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i got it (Hydreigon) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Draco Meteor

hello, long time no see stabmons thread. here's a fun pokemon to try out! hydreigon's pretty cool in this meta imo! parting shot allows it to fit well with voltturn and it's generally really strong.

parting shot is just an incredible move, and hydreigon's a great user for it because of its high speed and shock factor. nobody really uses hydreigon, but its ability to capture momentum on things like defensive lando, greninja, etc, is great. speaking of greninja, hydreigon can softcheck it in dire need as it resists both of its stab moves, and it ohkoes in return with draco! also softcheck to thundurus, which is always nice, as draco koes it as well (after a round of life orb damage). fire blast is what makes this viable, alongside parting shot, and it separates hydreigon from pokmeon like latios. it can 2hko celesteela after rocks if you're lucky, though i wouldn't recommend that; just use magnezone.

hydreigon has glaring weaknesses though. it's complete deadweight vs. fairy-types, chansey, and struggles vs. celesteela / magearna / tyranitar. beyond this, hydreigon's not the bulkiest, so it's not going to like taking many attacks, though it can softcheck things i've mentioned previously. mostly you just click parting shot or draco meteor anyways, but it's still got to be careful, as it's choiced.

overall, is hydreigon the best? no. is it amazing? no. but is it viable? i think so! and i think it's a lot of fun! give it a try!

i've also been experimenting with a spdef set to counter greninja and it's been okay, nothing special. defog / roost / parting shot / knock off is the set. a word to define it is literally just okay. it does what it needs to do and offers role compression by virtue of its typing and levitate, and shock factor, but it's still not that great.

try out hydreigon! try out some new pokemon! with stabmons being a ladder next month, what other cool pokemon are you guys using? any cool sets to try out? i wanna know! :)
 
let's talk: rain

okay, so. i've been thinking a lot about this, and i'm getting a feeling that rain is a huge sleeper threat at the current moment. it's incredibly powerful as there isn't espeed around to hold it back, and water spout on everything just becomes incredibly crazy. plus you get a perfect thundurus counter in thundurus-t which is amazing for any team really. let's look at some of the threats:

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the setter. pelipper becomes weirdly strong under rain. plus, its great typing lets it grab momentum on things like scizor or pex without losing much in return. it's a bit bulky on the physical side well, stopping scizor dead, and taking things like lopunny-m in a pinch. not that it matters, since pelipper is just the beginning of rain's terror.

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each of these pokemon become massively more threatening under rain. the amount of offensive pressure being applied is actually insane.

kingdra is just a monster under the rain. water spout hits like a truck through even resists and it has excellent dragon type coverage to help it out. kingdra's probably, in my opinion, the scariest to face due to its raw power and great typing, plus it can't be stopped by most choice scarf users. even then, kingdra's not a flimsy pokemon. super powerful and takes advantage of a lot of the tier's best pokemon being weak to its moves.

keldeo is just another monster, who boasts almost the highest most powerful water spouts in the game. its typing provides a lot to the team, too, by adding a resistance to rock-type moves. keldeo's just got such a powerful water spout, and secret sword, and everything. keldeo's power literally just gets amplified by ten in rain and feels almost overwhelmingly powerful.

swampert-mega is a monster as well, thanks to its massive bulk and power. the bulk it adds to the team and electric immunity lets it patch up a ton of weaknesses that the team otherwise has. it's just not to be messed with as its precipice-blades is only outpowered by one legal pokemon. plus, its liquidation will hit through shit it probably shouldn't under rain. insane pressure with swampert-mega.

gerninja is the final of the swappable staples. water spout in the rain easily kills things, allowing it to have the most powerful legal water spout in the game. then, it can take advantage of the rain with its powerful water shuriken late in the game as well. overall, solid addition to a rain team. takes advantage of the rain incredibly well.

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powerful.

thundurus-therian provides a thundurus counter, and is able to take advantage of 100% accuracy powerful thunders and hurricanes. definitely a great offensive option. wonderful offensive pressure. i don't know what else to say; thundurus-therian is just really fucking powerful.
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the not-boosted-by-water-but-staple section.

ferrothorn provides a lot to the team: entry hazards, resistance, bulk, and a powerful power whip. ferrothorn just provides so much to the team and aids against powerful threats like greninja itself, and thundurus if you get that focus blast miss! ferrothorn amplifies a team to another level and is seen on pretty much every rain variant i've ever seen.

scizor-mega is a secondary staple. not as staple, but used enough. if you're not using swampert-mega, it's because you're using scizor-mega. provides defog, great bulk, great resists, and scizor-mega and ferrothorn both benefit from less fire weakness. u-turn moment also really rocks, so it's not hard to see why scizor-mega is such a solid choice for a rain team.

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so, what do you think? rain is strong, yes? i know it has its flaws. everything does, but rain is good. i'm too tired to write more but you get the point.

rain is good!!
 
thundurus.gif


Hello, so after much time the council has finally come to the conclusion to ban Thundurus. Its offensive prowess as a special and physical wallbreaker is nearly unmatched in the tier. This enables it to break through its checks as there is a scarcity of walls that can take on both variants of Thundurus comfortably. The banning of Zygarde also heightens its prominence, as it lost one of its biggest checks and can now spam its STAB attacks more freely. We felt that removing it in the tier will help more defensive playstyles see more play and see more diversity of defensive pivots in the tier.

Feel free to discuss the current metagame post Thundurus ban. We feel this will definetely shake up the metagame quite a bit. Will Thundurus-T take the throne? Discuss!

The Immortal
 
Now that Thundurus is banned, i think rain teams would be the next best thing.
Thundurus-Therian couldn't do anything thundy does aside from Nasty Plot set that breaks through defensive mon, making it rather predictable.
Also, now that i think of rain teams, i remember a niche check to it that i don't really see often:

mantine.gif

Mantine @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 196 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Steam Eruption
- Roost
- Oblivion Wing / Beak Blast
- Toxic

Thanks to Water Absorb, it can stop Water-types from spamming their STAB moves.Kinda copied the OU spread... but with slight adjustments, 60 Def allows it to avoid a 2HKO from Specs Keldeo's Secret Sword after rocks. Though, its not really a good mon. It has rather limited used outside of checking certain rain team, Mega Swampert might pack Stone Edge, Keldeo might starting to pack HP Electric, and Greninja has other option to deal with Mantine.

Also, Specs Gren in rain team is super scary if kept healthy. But yeah, i can't wait to play this tier post Thundurus ban.
 
i'm getting a feeling that rain is a huge sleeper threat at the current moment
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I used rain back before the espeed ban and I was a big fan. Wasn't full rain though, I had defensive Lando as glue along with the core of Ferro/Pelipper/Swampert/Greninja and SD Terrak for a breaker outside of rain (probably should change it to something that actually capitalizes on water answers lol, didn't spend much time on the team.
Don't have much to add to the conversation, but one tech I decided to use that came in handy was Steam Eruption on Mega Swampert as the last move to avoid Beak Blasts. It's strong enough in rain to OHKO defensive Lando even with Adamant and does enough to physdef Celesteela to play mind games effectively.
 
Yay Thundy ban! This will definitely shake up the metagame. My initial thoughts...

Y'all banned Thundy-T on the server >_> shoutouts Dr. Phd. BJ for pointing this out. Funbot28 Fixed :D

I see Chansey becoming much better in this variant of STABmons. Thundurus was one of if not the single best stallbreaker in the tier, and with Taunt Chansey really couldn't do very much to it (without Taunt it could Transform, Toxic, or die to the physical set).

I also see other flying Pokemon such as Landorus, Yanmega, and Celesteela (not so much Aero or Skiploom) becoming much better, as they all suffered from Thundurus' presence. Lando-T appreciates not giving free switchins to a hugely threatening offensive Pokemon which can force out and set up on almost every Lando-T set. Yanmega not only appreciates losing a major check but also the loss of competition; with Nasty Wing Thundy gone Yanmega is probably the best offensive abuser of Oblivion Wing. Steela is pretty much in the same boat as Lando-T, it gave Thundy huge numbers of switchins and now wont.

Rain was already super good and I don't see that changing very much. I don't think it's broken personally, but I guess we'll see how things change.
 
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Is Thundy-T banned as well as regular Thundy? Seems like it is on PS! live atm

Also OP needs to be updated with new banlist

EDIT: Didn't notice drampa also mention the Thundy-T collateral
 
Seeing as Thundurus has received the much needed ban, I thought I would share my opinions on the other pokes suspected.
terrakion.png
Terrakion doesn't deserve to be banned in my opinion. Terrakion gains priority in the form of Mach Punch and Accelerock, not to mention an improved Stone Edge in Diamond Storm. I believe that there are a lot of viable checks to terrak, both offensively and defensively. Landorus-T, Celesteela, Sylveon, Swampert / Mega Swampert, Garchomp, Toxapex, etc. all can reliably check it. This is also without mentioning that pretty much all swift swim users check it. I believe that terrak is more of a nuisance if used properly then a banworthy mon.

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I feel like my thoughts on this Gren change every other battle. Greninja gains and uses Nasty Plot, and either Water Spout or Steam Eruption primarily. People underestimate what Steam Eruption does for this poke imo. It allows it to be more accurate than Hydro, while still having the side effects of scald. It's almost a no drawback move, and can burn it's checks / counters. On the other side, it has fairly common answers such as Mega-Altaria, Chansey, AV Magearna, Mega-Venu, Rotom-W, Tapu Fini, and others. I think Greninja is actually very good outside of rain, and giving it rain makes it next to broken. There's also no more fakespeed to revenge it, since it's banned. I'd say im 65 / 35 for ban / no ban, but it's too close to simply ban it without a suspect. Ash-Greninja is also banned in AAA, which has more answers for it than stabmons :P

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I believe that Pidgeot should be suspected. Being able to sleep something essentially without any drawback is borderline broken, and having base 121 speed makes it that much better. Unlike other sleep users such as Breloom and Amoonguss, Mega-Pidgeot can hit grass types and safety goggle users with spore. Even if grass types couldn't go to sleep, it still scares them out with Hurricane. It also gains Boomburst which helps it hit electric types such as Rotom-W, and hits neutral pokes harder than Hurricane. It suffers from 4mss, seeing as it has Sing / Boomburst / Heat Wave / Hurricane / U-Turn / Roost as moves it would like to run. It can definitely be checked by things like Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Celesteela, and others. The only issue is by putting them to sleep, it puts pressure on the opponent. It puts the Pidgeot user on the aggressive side for at least a turn, and can nearly make the opponent unable to predict anything since it has to burn sleep turns, and switch into something that can eat a hit of its coverage. It also can live most priority including Banded Accelerock from Terrak at full 100% of the time (does about 90ish max)
tl;dr speed tier = free sleep, free sleep + hits hard enough with coverage + initiative + negates prediction to an extent = suspect imo



With the ban of Thundurus-I, I believe that the metagame will change quite a bit. I believe pokes such as Celesteela, Keldeo, Tornadus-Therian, Mega-Venu, and other pokes will receive more usage. I think this is specifically true to Mega-Venu, seeing as how rain is among the biggest things in the tier right now. I also believe that the ban makes bulkier playstyles a LOT more viable. For example, Thundy almost single-handedly made STABmons a tier without stall. Obviously there were teams, but it wasn't very common nor frustrating to play against.

Also, I want to mention a set I have been using and love a ton. It's life orb physical Tornadus-T! The 8 hp evs are there so that it lives 3 seismic tosses from chansey at full, it only costs 4 attack evs, but it's such a nitpicky thing. Dragon Ascent + Superpower + Knock Off is amazing coverage, and hits a lot of the metagame. The main reason i like physical is that it now has full power Knock Offs and U-Turns, which is very helpful. Dragon Ascent also hits hard vs offensive teams lacking a good bird answer. If you opt for Taunt > U-Turn, it helps vs bulkier teams (mainly stall). Flyinium can be used to not take life orb damage, and to nuke stuff. All in all, I think this is a neat mon on voltturn offense with potential in the metagame.



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Tornadus-Therian @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 8 HP / 248 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Ascent
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- U-turn
 
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I know I will be a new face here, and I will also own up to being fairly low ladder, but I honestly believe that Mega-Pidgeon is super unhealthy for the meta. The free sleep is easily abusable, though its stats are kind of lackluster. All in all I support a suspect for the Pidgeon.
 
Magearna @ Steelium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- King's Shield
- Doom Desire
- Moonblast
- Autotomize

Ineresting set to work with, if it can be played right
 


cool core that utilizes a very underrated (outside of rain) pokemon: swampert-mega!

the sets are pretty self explanatory, so let me get into what makes this core good. swampert-mega and celesteela perfectly complement each other's weaknesses and wall a shit ton of the meta. swampert-mega's insane physical bulk lets it take on prominent threats like lopunny-mega with ease, while celesteela's special bulk covers the other spectrum, taking on special attackers. shore up is a godsend for swampert-mega, and with reliable recovery, it's deceptively tricky to take down. another cool thing is fishing for scald burns, which will help celesteela out if it can net an anchor shot -- making the opponent lose 18% every turn with leech seed + burn. it's pretty clear what this core can do for a team as well: provide a defensive backbone.

as for teammates, i'm running a celebi to cover the fighting-type weakness and provide momentum for my team, but it offers another defensive wall and rain check. rain is annoying for these two, as

252 SpA Greninja Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela in Rain: 225-265 (56.6 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 231-273 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

so a grass-type compliments this core well. water-types in general pose a threat, so bring something that can stop them. beyond this, charizard-mega-y also runs over this core, so you'll need a solid answer to that as well. though, i've not seen much charizard-mega-y in my experience on the ladder. i'm sure there's more weaknesses to this core, but hey, that's why you have six pokemon and not two!

i've also been running a lure sylveon + latios core and it's been working pretty decently. perhaps i'll make a post about it soon! too tired right now to.

what other cores have you guys been exploring and using?
 
Not sure if this is the right right place to ask about this but why exactly is blacephalon banned?

is specs blue flare and moongeist beam that strong in this format or this there some insane synergy im missing?

thanks for answers in advanve
 
Lil_Clorox_Bleach said:
Not sure if this is the right right place to ask about this but why exactly is blacephalon banned?

is specs blue flare and moongeist beam that strong in this format or this there some insane synergy im missing?

thanks for answers in advanve
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No problem. The issue was how it could double as a physical behemoth. Spectral thief, V-Create, Shadow Sneak, etc., Combined with beast boost and utility like trick, and it became too much for the meta to handle
 
Lil_Clorox_Bleach said:
thanks alot!
I have two more questions tho
Why origin pulse on tapu fini over steam eruption and why is kings rock banned?
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Origin Pulse and Steam Eruption are kind of interchangeable on Tapu Fini. Origin Pulse does kind of seem worse upon further inspection, since it has lower accuracy, but it does have higher PP, which helps in the long run, especially on a CM set. You don't get the burn from Steam Eruption anyways because of Misty Terrain, but feel free to use it imo.

King's Rock is banned because of Cloyster, which could utilize Shell Smash + Icicle Spear to basically flinch its way to victory versus most teams. It was just completely stupid, honestly, and was deemed ban-worthy.
 
wishes said:
Origin Pulse and Steam Eruption are kind of interchangeable on Tapu Fini. Origin Pulse does kind of seem worse upon further inspection, since it has lower accuracy, but it does have higher PP, which helps in the long run, especially on a CM set. You don't get the burn from Steam Eruption anyways because of Misty Terrain, but feel free to use it imo.

King's Rock is banned because of Cloyster, which could utilize Shell Smash + Icicle Spear to basically flinch its way to victory versus most teams. It was just completely stupid, honestly, and was deemed ban-worthy.
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Can't Cloyster use King's Rock, icicle spear, and shell smash in OU anyway (plus rock blast)? What's different in STABmons?
 
in the sample sets the dragon dance charizard x sets has fire lash as main STAB as an option alongside v-create
is that actually for real?

and are there any other ash-greninja sets apart from specs?
 
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