Metagame STABmons

It is the first part of analyse of specific Pokémon in a others metagame.

I want to talk about Landorus-Therian in the others metagame of STABmons. Let’s go for part 1 of the analyse on Landorus-Therian in STABmons.

Landorus-Therian is very good and versatile in this metagame with the possibility to add to its move pool every flying type move at the exception of Chatter, and ground type moves at the exception of thousands of arrows.

This Pokémon can be play in this metagame offensive or defensive or suicide lead or tailwind setter for example.

At my opinion, the physical defensive set is a great option with shore up or roost.

Landorus-Therian Defensive set item: Rocky Helmet or Leftovers or Iapapa Berry

248 EV in Hp and 252 EV in Defense and 8 EV in Sp. Def

You can choose between a Impish nature or a Bold nature.

Recommend moves

  • Shore Up or Roost
  • Beak Blast or Oblivion Wing or Air Slash
  • Bonemerang or Earthquake or Earth Power
  • Defog or Stealth Rock or Spikes or Hidden Power Ice or Knock Off or U-turn
Something you can see form Landorus-Terrain in this tier is the suicide lead set.

Landorus-Therian Suicide Lead Item: Focus Sash or Custap Berry

252 EV in Attack and 252 EV in Speed.

You can choose between a jolly or naïve or Hasty nature.

Recommend moves

  • Spikes or Stealth Rock
  • Explosion
  • Tailwind or Defod or Knock off
  • Bonemerang or Dragon Ascent or Air Slash or Oblivion Wing or Hidden power ice
I know than my post is very short, but I will continue in other posts with others Landorus-therian set in the STABmons metagame. I will continue with some z move set and more offensive set in the next post. Thanks to have read my post and I hope to able to improve in the future, good night.
 
It is the first part of analyse of specific Pokémon in a others metagame.

I want to talk about Landorus-Therian in the others metagame of STABmons. Let’s go for part 1 of the analyse on Landorus-Therian in STABmons.

Landorus-Therian is very good and versatile in this metagame with the possibility to add to its move pool every flying type move at the exception of Chatter, and ground type moves at the exception of thousands of arrows.

This Pokémon can be play in this metagame offensive or defensive or suicide lead or tailwind setter for example.

At my opinion, the physical defensive set is a great option with shore up or roost.

Landorus-Therian Defensive set item: Rocky Helmet or Leftovers or Iapapa Berry

248 EV in Hp and 252 EV in Defense and 8 EV in Sp. Def

You can choose between a Impish nature or a Bold nature.

Recommend moves

  • Shore Up or Roost
  • Beak Blast or Oblivion Wing or Air Slash
  • Bonemerang or Earthquake or Earth Power
  • Defog or Stealth Rock or Spikes or Hidden Power Ice or Knock Off or U-turn
Something you can see form Landorus-Terrain in this tier is the suicide lead set.

Landorus-Therian Suicide Lead Item: Focus Sash or Custap Berry

252 EV in Attack and 252 EV in Speed.

You can choose between a jolly or naïve or Hasty nature.

Recommend moves

  • Spikes or Stealth Rock
  • Explosion
  • Tailwind or Defod or Knock off
  • Bonemerang or Dragon Ascent or Air Slash or Oblivion Wing or Hidden power ice
I know than my post is very short, but I will continue in other posts with others Landorus-therian set in the STABmons metagame. I will continue with some z move set and more offensive set in the next post. Thanks to have read my post and I hope to able to improve in the future, good night.
I think Precipice Blades is a better option over EQ because the +20 power can be really important helping to wear down more easily pokemon like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Ttar or Magearna (or OHKOing them easier after extra damage) and can also help wear down easier offensive checks than can pretend to switch-in in Defog or Stealth Rocks. Also that's what I've actually seen, I don't really remember any viable Lando set in this tier running EQ over Precipice Blades. I also don't think that the special set could work better than the physical one, because of being most susceptible to lose against threats it should check like the aftermentioned, lacking a lot of power and also lacking the incredible utility that Beak Blast has. (Srry if my english isn't very good, I'm spanish lol)
 
I think Precipice Blades is a better option over EQ because the +20 power can be really important helping to wear down more easily pokemon like Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Ttar or Magearna (or OHKOing them easier after extra damage) and can also help wear down easier offensive checks than can pretend to switch-in in Defog or Stealth Rocks. Also that's what I've actually seen, I don't really remember any viable Lando set in this tier running EQ over Precipice Blades. I also don't think that the special set could work better than the physical one, because of being most susceptible to lose against threats it should check like the aftermentioned, lacking a lot of power and also lacking the incredible utility that Beak Blast has. (Srry if my english isn't very good, I'm spanish lol)
Yeah, physical is pretty much strictly better than special, if only for the fact that Lando has an incredibly high physical attack. That said, I'd certainly use EQ over precipice blades on a stall build. I agree though that most teams should risk the chance to miss. Stall teams prefer the consistency and higher PP though (and Lando can OHKO standard Mega Mawile with EQ and minimal attack investment).
 
It is the first part of analyse of specific Pokémon in a others metagame.

I want to talk about Landorus-Therian in the others metagame of STABmons. Let’s go for part 1 of the analyse on Landorus-Therian in STABmons.

Landorus-Therian is very good and versatile in this metagame with the possibility to add to its move pool every flying type move at the exception of Chatter, and ground type moves at the exception of thousands of arrows.

This Pokémon can be play in this metagame offensive or defensive or suicide lead or tailwind setter for example.

At my opinion, the physical defensive set is a great option with shore up or roost.

Landorus-Therian Defensive set item: Rocky Helmet or Leftovers or Iapapa Berry

248 EV in Hp and 252 EV in Defense and 8 EV in Sp. Def

You can choose between a Impish nature or a Bold nature.

Recommend moves

  • Shore Up or Roost
  • Beak Blast or Oblivion Wing or Air Slash
  • Bonemerang or Earthquake or Earth Power
  • Defog or Stealth Rock or Spikes or Hidden Power Ice or Knock Off or U-turn
Something you can see form Landorus-Terrain in this tier is the suicide lead set.

Landorus-Therian Suicide Lead Item: Focus Sash or Custap Berry

252 EV in Attack and 252 EV in Speed.

You can choose between a jolly or naïve or Hasty nature.

Recommend moves

  • Spikes or Stealth Rock
  • Explosion
  • Tailwind or Defod or Knock off
  • Bonemerang or Dragon Ascent or Air Slash or Oblivion Wing or Hidden power ice
I know than my post is very short, but I will continue in other posts with others Landorus-therian set in the STABmons metagame. I will continue with some z move set and more offensive set in the next post. Thanks to have read my post and I hope to able to improve in the future, good night.
At the current moment, max defensive leftovers is pretty much the only viable landorus-T set, as it’s the only flying type Pokémon in the game that can switch into aerodactyl at all. Aerodactyl outspeeds and OHKOs basically every defensive flying, and very few other defensive Pokémon can switch in, so if you don’t have a max defense leftovers Landot you usually a mon every time aerodactyl comes in against balance.

E: to expand on this, since I realize I was super unclear: it’s the only ground immunity that doesn’t lose to aerodactyl, making it a godsend
 
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I think I just found the most unexpected stallbreaker in the tier.
Choice Specs Crawdaunt.
...
No, I'm serious. If you give this thing rain support, it literally 2HKOs or OHKOs everything in the tier.
Still doubting me? Here, have some calcs.
CALCS said:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 398-470 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Rain: 176-208 (57.8 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 207-244 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini in Rain: 250-295 (72.8 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 156+ SpD Venusaur-Mega in Rain: 215-253 (59.2 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Lugia in Rain: 216-255 (51.9 - 61.2%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And if you switched your physical wall into this thing thinking it was gonna take the hit...
MORE CALCS said:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 554-652 (166.3 - 195.7%) --
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SKARMORY IS GONE
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252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth in Rain: 226-267 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Night Daze vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 172-204 (42.6 - 50.6%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Crawdaunt Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scizor-Mega: 302-356 (87.7 - 103.4%) --
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SCIZOR IS GONE
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Sure, it's mostly deadweight against offensive teams, though Water Shuriken CAN hurt. And sure, it needs a ton of team support, between requiring rain for the nutty calcs and not being too fast. But when it gets in safely against something it outspeeds, something on your opponent's team fucking dies.
TL;DR:
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SPECS CRAWDAUNT IS BUSTED
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Edit: Here's the set I use:
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STALL IS GONE
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(Crawdaunt) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature (run Rash with 4 Atk if you run something physical in the 4th slot)
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Water Shuriken
- Night Daze
- Origin Pulse / Steam Eruption / Ice Beam / Sludge Wave / Switcheroo / Sleep Talk / Superpower / whatever, you only need 3 moves anyway
 
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I think I just found the most unexpected stallbreaker in the tier.
Choice Specs Crawdaunt.
...
No, I'm serious. If you give this thing rain support, it literally 2HKOs or OHKOs everything in the tier.
Still doubting me? Here, have some calcs.

And if you switched your physical wall into this thing thinking it was gonna take the hit...

Sure, it's mostly deadweight against offensive teams, though Water Shuriken CAN hurt. And sure, it needs a ton of team support, between requiring rain for the nutty calcs and not being too fast. But when it gets in safely against something it outspeeds, something on your opponent's team fucking dies.
TL;DR: View attachment 172002View attachment 172002View attachment 172002SPECS CRAWDAUNT IS BUSTEDView attachment 172002View attachment 172002View attachment 172002

Edit: Here's the set I use:
View attachment 172002View attachment 172002View attachment 172002STALL IS GONEView attachment 172002View attachment 172002View attachment 172002 (Crawdaunt) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature (run Rash with 4 Atk if you run something physical in the 4th slot)
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Water Shuriken
- Night Daze
- Origin Pulse / Steam Eruption / Ice Beam / Sludge Wave / Switcheroo / Sleep Talk / Superpower / whatever, you only need 3 moves anyway
Doesn't Clawitzer do this better? A Mega Launcher boosted origin pulse is not quite as strong as adaptability boosted water spout, but Clawitzer's special attack is much higher, and it doesn't have to be at max health to hit at max power. It also gets aura sphere for dark types (water absorb Cacturne is the new meta lol jk).
 
Doesn't Clawitzer do this better? A Mega Launcher boosted origin pulse is not quite as strong as adaptability boosted water spout, but Clawitzer's special attack is much higher, and it doesn't have to be at max health to hit at max power. It also gets aura sphere for dark types (water absorb Cacturne is the new meta lol jk).
the thing is
nobody expects the specs crawdaunt
everybody expects the specs clawitzer
 
With gen 7 wrapping up soon, I figured I'd dump a couple teams I liked in this meta.



Built this in ekiller meta, and never stopped enjoying it. Banded Durant lures and wears down steels alongside hazard spam, burn spread, and doom desire, to facilitate a Pidgeot endgame clean. The backbone of physdef lando, physdef rotom, spdef heatran, spdef bulu can handle most of the meta. Really enjoyable comfort team and pretty easy to play, but plenty of room to master using it.



Another comfort bulky offense, using Seismitoad to shut down opposing Rotoms. Seed flare is a rare pick and those Rotoms are walled by Latios, so this team can handle most threats while enabling Terrak with opportunities to remove wincons one-by-one. Seismitoad + Celesteela + Bulu + Heatran is insane type synergy, and it's really easy to double switch with the squad to make up for having zero pivots.
 
Hello, I'm going to post something that I think is important. Previously I didn't know that this fabulous other metagame "stabmons" existed, it's that this year I started playing it. Indeed, I've been playing this metagame since April. Then I started building teams around M-Medicham. I think it's one of the most powerful in this thier to be honest. I also used another account. I also noticed that at the ladder, you can obviously play every 30 minutes because I am a Frenchman and I played in the off hours, noticing my rise in the ladder and finally being the first to the ladder!
I hope that this community will continue to develop under the best conditions! #stabme4ever


183035



This is one of the teams I used: https://pastebin.com/raw/DAUky12J
 
I think I just found the most unexpected stallbreaker in the tier.
Choice Specs Crawdaunt.
...
No, I'm serious. If you give this thing rain support, it literally 2HKOs or OHKOs everything in the tier.
Still doubting me? Here, have some calcs.

And if you switched your physical wall into this thing thinking it was gonna take the hit...

Sure, it's mostly deadweight against offensive teams, though Water Shuriken CAN hurt. And sure, it needs a ton of team support, between requiring rain for the nutty calcs and not being too fast. But when it gets in safely against something it outspeeds, something on your opponent's team fucking dies.
TL;DR: View attachment 172002View attachment 172002View attachment 172002SPECS CRAWDAUNT IS BUSTEDView attachment 172002View attachment 172002View attachment 172002

Edit: Here's the set I use:
View attachment 172002View attachment 172002View attachment 172002STALL IS GONEView attachment 172002View attachment 172002View attachment 172002 (Crawdaunt) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature (run Rash with 4 Atk if you run something physical in the 4th slot)
IVs: 0 Atk
- Water Spout
- Water Shuriken
- Night Daze
- Origin Pulse / Steam Eruption / Ice Beam / Sludge Wave / Switcheroo / Sleep Talk / Superpower / whatever, you only need 3 moves anyway
What's its niche over Physical sets?
 
Ok so with OMPL currently going on, I decided to revamp the sample teams! I posted 3 already, but I encourage others to post their own as well.


Thundurus Rain by Funbot28


Mega Charizard-X Bulky Offense by Funbot28


Mega Altaria Sand Balance by Jrdn and Funbot28

Also, expect a Viability Rankings update in the near future as well.
Good God, rain looks threatening. Being able to run adamant (nor Kart) and having stronger stab moves makes Swampert able to break Pokemon it otherwise couldn't, like max defense Amoonguss. Any recommendations for checks?
 
Good God, rain looks threatening. Being able to run adamant (nor Kart) and having stronger stab moves makes Swampert able to break Pokemon it otherwise couldn't, like max defense Amoonguss. Any recommendations for checks?
I find Rotom-Wash being one of its checks thanks to its Water typing and Levitate. In addition, it can potentially Scald burn it or neuter with Strength Sap ( if you used it over Roost ).
 

drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
Good God, rain looks threatening. Being able to run adamant (nor Kart) and having stronger stab moves makes Swampert able to break Pokemon it otherwise couldn't, like max defense Amoonguss. Any recommendations for checks?
The best answers are bulky grass types like Tangrowth (make sure you can take Ice Punch). Ferrothorn is also very solid. Rotom-Wash is probably the most viable Pokemon I would consider a hard counter to common variants of Mega Pert in rain.

Celesteela is usually a pretty solid bet but sometimes has to outplay for the burn / attack drop with Beak Blast / King's Shield. Araquanid resists everything Swampert is likely to throw at it and absolutely blows it back in rain (blow everything back honestly that thing hits like a truck). Mantine gets a special mention for being literally immune to both STABs and not caring much about Ice Punch or Superpower (Jellicent can do the same but don't run Jellicent).

Overall rain is very solid in this metagame but there are ways to keep it in check. Common water resists like Ferrothorn and Rotom-Wash or Cut keep it in check, as does how common priority is.

Viability noms...

Sylveon B+ -> A- or A
Sylveon is one of the best defensive glue Pokemon in the metagame. It has considerably more freedom in item slot post-Thundy so stuff like Earth Plate, Lefties, 420BlazeIt Plate are all more viable, making it difficult to know exactly what other than Chansey is your best bet to switch in on and force out Sylveon.

I would argue Sylveon is the best special blanket check in the metagame (nb not the best at being one that's chansey clearly, just the best mon that is one, unless you count Steela). It's incredibly easy to slap on a team, not at all passive between powerful STAB and coverage of choice, and has utility up the wazoo with paralysis, hazard removal, cleric capabilities, etc.

I may be overselling Sylv a little here. Given that Recovery, Spin, and Boomburst are pretty much a given on any Sylveon (that isn't some jank specs set or something) you only have one slot for utility or coverage. But it really does get to choose what type of support it provides and what counters it without being crippled based on that single slot.

Greninja-Ash A+->A I know this may seem weird given how good rain is but I think AshNinja isn't quite an A+ level threat right now. The meta is prepared for it, with Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Rotom-W/C, and Sylveon(!) all being common. It's still a potent threat, and is a dangerous Pokemon for any team, clearly worthy of being in the A ranks, but it needs support (rain, slow pivoting) to achieve its highest levels of performance.

I could lean otherwise on this one, so please convince me.

Lopunny-Mega A+ -> Lower than A+
Safely setting up Lopunny is really difficult. It doesn't provide a lot of utility, isn't that strong unboosted, and doesn't hit much super-effectively with its STABs. It's almost never used (not an argument btw) so I have difficulty saying exactly where it should fall, but A+ is too high.

Rotom-C B- -> B or B+
I thought this thing would die after Zygarde left, but it hasn't. It's one of the best bulky grasses in the tier, competing mostly with Ferrothorn, but also with Mega Venusaur. It has an enormous movepool thanks to being Rotom, and a typing that makes the many birds of the tier less happy coming in on it than on its grass type cohorts. Thanks to how common rain is it finds a solid matchup against those teams, solidly thrashing most of the Pokemon on rain (not all at once though don't play like an idiot). However the most meta-relevant reason for Rotom-C (or Rotom-M or whatever tf it is) is the fact that it answers two of the most common defensive Pokemon in the tier; Landorus-Therian and Celesteela. By answers I don't just mean switches in and wins, it actively takes momentum back through pivoting, and punishes attempts to stay in with Ice Beam / Volt Switch. Rotom-Wash can do this too of course, but I'm not talking about Rotom-Wash.

It has its drawbacks of course; Grass typing is a two-edged sword bringing some common weaknesses, Rotom has severe four moveslot syndrome in all of its formes, and it has to be wary of switching directly in on Landorus-Therian due to offensive sets (252 Atk Landorus-Therian Dragon Ascent vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Mow: 145-172 (47.6 - 56.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). But Rotom-C does well in this metagame and its rank should support that.

Thundurus-Therian (or as I just typed it into Showdown, thunudurs-therin) UR -> B+
This thing has largely taken over the niche of special Thundurus-Incarnate. Can't do the physical sets, and is slower, but goddamn this thing hits hard. Given that OMPL is on I'm not actually going to drop sets right now. I think it's been used in a couple matches the past couple rounds though, and I know I posted a team with it higher up in the thread (rain with Scarf Thundy).

I feel like B+ is a good fit because it's definitely more viable than stuff like Gyarados but not as viable as the stuff like Megacham in A-. However I think it's most important that it is ranked somewhere. I know UR -> B+ may seem like a big jump but there was definitely a meta shift that warrants it, with its main competition being banned.

Overall... Honestly the viability rankings look like a mess. They don't seem to represent the metagame I see and play at all, and while I know usage doesn't equate to viability, I feel like there are Pokemon with very limited usage on common archetypes peppered into every level of viability, and I barely know how to get them out honestly. Maybe it's just that STABmons is dead and everyone's using the same stuff because there isn't enough of a meta for people to use the less popular things, but it still seems off. idk. I hope this update resolves some of my issues. I may post some sample teams once we win OMPL ;).
 
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drampa's grandpa

#BlackLivesMatter
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Moderator
I know this is a double post but it's been almost a month.

We need a QUICKBAN on Aerodactyl. There is near unanimous support from the community, and it has been both a broken and centralizing force in the metagame for quite awhile now.

The set I'm calling for a ban because of is the Choice Band set. Other sets, while viable, aren't nearly as threatening and aren't really worth discussing in a ban discussion.


Aerodactyl @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Head Smash
- Brave Bird
- Accelerock
- Earthquake

Other options: Fire Fang, Ice Fang

This set alone nukes almost the entire metagame, with only a few Pokemon being able to avoid the 2hko. The last two slots barely matter, as what Aerodactyl mostly does is spam its STABs.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 163-193 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 46.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 192-228 (50.2 - 59.6%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (guaranteed 2hko with Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 223-264 (56.1 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Aerodactyl Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 220-260 (62.5 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


I included these Pokemon specifically because they are some of the most common physical walls in the tier. They all lose to Aerodactyl on switchin, and rely on outpredicting Aerodactyl every time they come in to win at all.

Celesteela and Ferrothorn can run King's Shield to lower Aerodactyl's attack and thus win on switchin, but it's a 50/50 every time once they know or guess you have that move, and it's heavily in the favor of the Aero user, because if the Aero user loses the 50/50 they're forced out and can come back in later to force the 50/50 again, while if the Steela/Ferro user loses the 50/50 they are forced to sack a Pokemon, and lose what is likely their primary Aero switchin.

Landorus and Steela can also run Beak Blast, and while this pretty reliably cripples Aero, it's not even a one for one trade, as you lose a Pokemon and Aero is simply burnt, something which could be enough... or could be healed in a couple turns by a Heal Bell/Aromatherapy Pokemon (not exactly hard to find) or Healing Wish/Lunar Dance (slightly harder but still much more common than OU).


Aerodactyl does have counters; Steelix (regular or mega) is the one I've been seeing used most commonly recently, as it gets reliable recovery, doesn't mind Stealth Rocks, and has enough raw bulk and a good enough typing that it's not deadweight in other matchups. Other counters include
Hippowdon
Doublade (once)
Aggron-Mega
Slowbro-Mega
That horse thing with Stamina what's it called again? Mudsdale
There may be a couple others but these are the ones I know of off the top of my head.

The patterns here are that most of these Pokemon are incredible momentum sucks, of varying viability but trending towards the lower end of viable. Some of these (aggron, mudsdale, doublade) I practically never see on teams. Steelix and Mega Slowbro are decently common nowadays, in a large part due to Aerodactyl's presence, which shows how centralizing a presence Aerodactyl is.

Despite the existence of counters and some checks (which I can talk about in a minute) I still believe Aerodactyl is far too difficult to build for and too centralizing a presence in the current metagame. Its weaknesses are all fairly easily managed by other teammates. Its Stealth Rock weakness relies on the opponent keeping rocks down, and with Rotom-W being able to Defog on most of the common setters in the tier (Heatran, Lando-T, Chansey lacking Toxic, etc.) and being one of the best partners for Aerodactyl, it's difficult to assume rocks. Aerodactyl can be said to be vulnerable to priority, but almost no abuser of priority can switch in, meaning they cannot do more than revenge, and since Aerodactyl is a one turn attacker that means it claims a mon before you can revenge it, and it can just switch out (unless you play Pursuit games with Tyranitar, Tyranitar to S). Its counters are major momentum sucks which every decent team has multiple switch-ins for and ways to abuse. Rotom-Wash, again, comes into anything but Toxic from basically anything but Ferrothorn that is going to try to switch into Aerodactyl and pivots on or burns them, and if it carries Aromatherapy even Toxic's not an issue (4mss tho).

Because of Aerodactyl's ridiculous speed tier it forces out almost the entire offensive metagame that isn't scarfed or carrying super-effective priority.

I don't know how much longer I have to go on because I haven't talked to anyone who disagrees that Aerodactyl is broken. I don't think we really need a suspect for Aero at this point. I would love to see other people discussing Aero as well in the thread.

Other things...

I've also seen people (cough Chazm cough) calling for an Araquanid ban but I'm not sold either way on that yet so I'm going to hold off. It hits ridiculously hard at +3 and has priority, but if you don't allow it to get to +3 for free it is considerably less broken, and counters do exist. However I do feel that this is sort of an anti-ban argument that calls for ensuring all six of your Pokemon can deal with Araquanid which is... overcentralizing to say the least. I'm not sure yet.

EDIT:
Some viability noms...
Celesteela S -> A+
Yes I know I nommed this to S last time and it moved but it's gotten worse since. Celesteela was amazing in the meta built around Espeed and as we've moved further and further from that its gotten worse and worse. Nowadays Celesteela, while still one of the better walls in the tier and the single best Landorus-Therian counter (screw Gravity tho), is just too passive to remain an S rank threat. It is setup bait for a number of Pokemon, most notably Thundurus-Therian and Araquanid, both of whom have skyrocketed in usage recently. A lot of the Pokemon it walls that used to be very common just aren't anymore, and its job is being done by other Pokemon.

Steelix(-Mega) -> Don't actually move these just ban Aero and let their usage die

Araquanid -> B+ -> A-/A
This thign has taken off in popularity recently. It's insanely difficult to switch into for basically any playstyle, mandates a water immunity on stall, and forces other playstyles to either prevent it setting up with basically every mon or to carry something that can revenge kill it through a +3 Water Shuriken which is.... not much honestly. I'm still not sold on it being banworthy but it definitely deserves to be out of the B ranks.

Mimikyu -> A -> A-
I honestly I can't remember the last time I saw this thing put in quality work. The physical walls of the tier can deal with it easily, and while it forces sweepers out that's not really much of a hardship, especially since it can't actually switch in on anything its not immune to without losing its only niche. I'm being conservative with its drop because I'm not sure where but it does need to drop imo.

Tornadus-Therian B- -> B/B+
This thing is pretty neat nowadays. There isn't one standout set I'm going to hold out, although I really like scarf or band physical (Dragon Ascent/U-Turn/Knock Off/Defog or Superpower or w/e) It has really good speed, Nasty Plot, good STAB options, and an excellent ability. It suffers from competition with Thundurus-Therian and Aerodactyl and from checks to them like Rotom and Tyranitar being really common, but it still always puts in work as a pivot and fastmon.
 
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aesf

OM Grand Slam Winner
^^ Well said, I think you covered everything that needs to be covered. It's definitely not hard to check aero or avoid losing to it, but the way it compresses teambuilding and forces you to, for the most part, use mons that completely drain offensive momentum makes it unhealthy for the metagame, at least in my opinion.

189511
Tyranitar --> S
While Lando-T is still likely the best mon in the metagame, Tyranitar has clearly distinguished itself as at least #2. Mons like zard-y, zard-x, araquanid, mega lati, aerodactyl, yanmega, and even specs greninja are all examples of stabmons threats with extremely limited counterplay and which tyranitar gives the user an out against. With priority, great offensive pressure, and trapping, it's so easy to splash onto teams that just need a bit more power, a bit more speed control, or a way to handle the STABmons metagame. The ultimate glue mon.

189512
Araquanid --> A+
Few mons are as meta-defining as araquanid right now. Simply put, it's a wincon, wallbreaker, and revenge killer with amazing defensive typing and bulk in one slot. No water immunes or Ttar, or 6 mons that deal >50% against it, and it's almost certainly getting a kill, or 6. Offensively and defensively it's just so good. This is a calc that's not here to support any argument but it's kinda funny-
+3 252+ SpA Water Bubble Araquanid Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 582-686 (82.7 - 97.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

189513
Celesteela --> A+
agree with drampa, it still walls everything but it's too big of a momentum drain to be S

189514
Rotom-H/Rotom-W
189515
--> A+
Both are incredibly consistent lando checks, and these two are easily two of the best pivots in STABmons. They switch into everything not absurdly powerful, grab free momentum, and put the rotom-user in a favorable position 9 times out of 10. Rotom-W is an incredible defogger, too. Rotom-H in B- is a travesty

big
189517
Mega Tyranitar --> A+
See Tyranitar. Aside from band/scarf sets, it's literally Ttar but better. Can also run a nasty DD set

189518
Seismitoad --> A
Fire resists, rock resists, and water immunes are as needed as ever in this meta, and seismitoad performs all these roles very well. Access to rocks is invaluable. Its role compression is absolutely insane and is one of the reasons why bulkier teams are possible in this metagame. Its only weaknesses are being a bit passive and lacking just a wee bit in defenses, but Celes is A+ and its defensive sets are only a little better than frog's

189519
Mega Medicham --> A
If you've been watching ompl at all, Mega medicham's surge in usage has been no accident. Does OU medicham things but in a relatively slow meta, this mon absolutely feasts. Mach is great priority too.

189520
Mega Slowbro --> A
Megabro being better in STABmons than in OU has always been a weird phenomenon, but it's still true here. Checks so much it's ridiculous, and easily wins games probably way more than it should

189522
Slowking --> A-
yet another essential water/fire resist that exerts significant offensive pressure. Pivots very consistently, gets off heavy hits and pressure w future sight/steam.

189523
Slowbro --> A-
(specs is good) Does the same thing as Megabro but trades off the ability to get bigger/setup for immediate power so ig it's a bit worse

1565149935407.png
Gliscor --> A-
A fast bulky physical sweeper that brushes off beak blast, sets up on lando/celesteela, and counters bandtar. This mon was made for stabmons, and only low usage prevents it from being higher in my eyes

189524
Tapu Bulu --> A-
Whys this thing in B-? Great greninja check, can break p well with sd/strength sap/z while having tons of defensive utility. Scarf sets have also made a splash this ompl, as one of the best scarfers in the metagame.

Not bothering w below A tier. there's more where that came from but I'll refrain
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so I would just like to say that the council has been taking into consideration all the discussion that has been occurring in this thread alongside observing replays of this past OMPL and we had finally decided to vote on the potential banning of the following Pokemon: Araquanid, Aerodactyl, Mega Pidgeot, Terrakion, and Thundurus-T. Here are the results (note that wishes did not participate in this vote and w0rd was added in their place for the time being).



Therefore, with these results....



Aerodactyl and Mega Pidgeot have been quickbanned!
The Immortal

Brief reasoning below:
Aerodactyl has been a major offensive threat ever since the beginning of the gen, where its powerful, no drawback STABs in Head Smash and Brave Bird thanks to its ability Rock Head alongside a high base Speed enables it to threaten both offensive and defensive threats alike. Its coverage in Earthquake, Ice Fang, Aqua Tail, and Accelrock also makes checks such as Rhypherior, Landorus-T, and Doublade less reliable as a response especially when paired with a Choice Band, making teambuilding too restrictive as a result to account for such a massive threat. Therefore, the council has deemed Aerodactyl's affect on teambuilding to be too detrimental and thus led us to ban it.


While not as powerful as Aerodactyl, Mega Pidgeot has other attributes that may deem it problematic, mainly coming from its 100% accurate Sing that makes it cause a major nuisance to the majority of teams. Due to Mega Pidgeot's ability to put its checks to sleep, teams often require 2 checks to account for it due to the power of its STABs usually wearing opposing threats down before they even have a chance in waking up. Coupled with a great Speed tier and useful coverage in U-Turn and Heat Wave alongside Recovery, Mega Pidgeot skews teambuilding too a detrimental extent just as Aerodactyl in the council's opinion, leading us to ban it as a result.


We would like to hear feedback of the metagame after these bans as we believe it will shuffle things up quite a bit and lead to a more flexible form of team diversity and building as well. Expect a VR update after the metagame stabilizes a bit.

I would also like to announce a brand new sample team provided by Catalystic and aesf !



Mega Latias Sand Balance

We are still accepting more teams so don't feel shy to do so!
 

Chazm

The "Subpar MnM Main"
is a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I'm going to make a few complaints about these bans for a second.

First off - Mega Pidgeot already had easy to fit checks. It's not as if it was exactly healthy itself, which is why I'm glad to see it go, but the fact that there were commonplace checks like Tyranitar, Celesteela, Magearna and Sylveon on most teams generally meant that most had two checks for it already. I do believe that this ban is unjust but there's just one monster I would like to highlight over this:

Araquanid.

I need good reasoning as to why this didn't get the hammer. Araquanid is insanely limiting in its checks - there are only two viable checks in the entire game (which don't fall to Z move), Mantine and Seismitoad, the latter almost popping up EXCLUSIVELY for Araquanid, and the other having some decent viability. Teams are getting obliterated by this thing in OMPL as regular water resists don't even work and if you let this thing set up even once it's likely game over if you don't have one of two exclusive Accelerock users to revenge kill because Araquanid just bypasses standard methods. Not happy with this.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
The more obvious ban was banning sleep moves; spore already got banned for being uncompetitive and ompl showcased some dumb stuff like sleep powder rotom which puts its checks out of commission with ease

pidgeot is an underwhelming mon without sing, and sleep moves have already proven to be broken on other mons. just get rid of sleep.

also yeah araq is gonna be super broken with the best accelrock user gone; hopefully this gets the hammer before omwc.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One for All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Araquanid.

I need good reasoning as to why this didn't get the hammer.
384tv0.jpg


Araquanid is insanely limiting in its checks - there are only two viable checks in the entire game (which don't fall to Z move), Mantine and Seismitoad, the latter almost popping up EXCLUSIVELY for Araquanid, and the other having some decent viability.
384u2e.jpg




But seriously though, I just got back into STABmons and this disgusting beast just rips apart all of my teams that lack Mantine and just discourages me from getting back in the game.
 

chlo

snug
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
No matter how I say this, it's going to come off as impolite, but I assure you that is not my intention at all. I do believe this council vote was incredibly unnecessary especially with the number of and choice of targets brought up in addition to one of the members voting on it. Aerodactyl and Araquanid are seen as definite threats by the community that should have been banned as a result of this vote; however, one escaped and another Pokémon that arguably hasn't seen prominence in recent times got booted as well. This doesn't sit well with me at all. The deciding vote on these bans was made by a user who hasn't involved himself in the metagame recently / hasn't played the metagame competitively in years.

Mega Pidgeot was not an optimal target here at all. If you genuinely believe it's an issue in the current metagame, sleep is probably a better target, but even then, I don't believe anything needed to be done here. A quickban this late in a meta is already really silly, but with how long Aerodactyl and Araquanid have been left to thrive, I'd be willing to forgive it. Mega Pidgeot though? Really? I implore the council to reconsider the ban of Mega Pidgeot and no-ban of Araquanid, because it's astounding how the members of this council who run the metagame are unable to detect what threats are actually potent at the current stage of the metagame.

The reasoning I've been provided as to why Araquanid should stay (by a council member) is absolutely fallible. Again, this slate of bans makes little sense. Araquanid really needs to go. Please reconsider these decisions.
 

EV

Banned deucer.
Just say my name Chloe . I won't cry.

Fwiw, I offered to abstain from the vote. I've been re-added to the council without asking to be even when I thought it was clear I had resigned long ago, so :blobshrug:.

But I don't blame the council for feeling desperate enough to add somebody who hasn't been relevant for a year+ because, like, I'm really fucking cool.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
sleep is an uncompetitive mechanic and all sleep moves should have been banned. banning just spore was a mistake that should be corrected. sleep powder is still usable on every spore user and its just uncompetitive being able to cheese sleep turns with rotom + terrak etc.

pidgeot is a mediocre pokemon in a tier thats run by ttar celesteela chansey and 100% accurate sleep is the only reason it even sees usage. Sleep should be outright banned, there's nothing unreasonable about banning an uncompetitive mechanic. Saying a 55% accurate sleep move is such a strawman because the argument is that sleep is uncompetitive, which is true in a tier with such widely distributed sleep. Spore is obviously the most visible example, but when spore got the axe all sleep should have. When an element is uncompetitive, you should excise the entire element, not only the best abuser. For example, in OU Arena Trap was banned wholely, rather than Dugtrio, because the entire mechanic is uncompetitive.

Pidgeot had 2 uses in this years OMPL, and one was by our team because we wanted to cheese sleep turns. Pidgeot didn't even receive enough usage to be STABMons OU, and is probably an A-/B+ rank mon at best.

Banning sleep outright makes a whole lot more sense if sleep is uncompetitive, so I have no idea why you would come back swinging. This tier has proven time and time again that it cannot handle widespread sleep, having to ban both spore and lovely kiss. If sleep is broken, why the hell would you ban Pidgeot?

By the way, you really shouldn't have voted; you haven't played this tier in a year and a half and it's a disservice to this tier for you to do anything other than abstain. I'd love to see you come back and contribute if you decide to play STABmons again; you'll probably change your mind. I hope this vote is redone with a new council with active STABmons players.

Edit @ below: What do you mean by offer to abstain? If you wanted to abstain, all you had to do was vote abstain on everything. How can you offer to abstain when abstaining is your decision anyway?
 
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