(Stall) Terrible Triremes

[elitesalamander]

If you give quagsire amnesia he can still take on baton pass teams just as well as one with haze seeing as stored power wont do much against any pokemon with max special defense it also gives the bonus of being able to pick up boosts on predicted switches to special attacking Pokemon and deal with them as well

 

[Ajwf]

Amnesia is certainly an interesting concept, however I'd lose toxic, which is way more important in most games, especially for things like Charizard-X.

After testing, Dragonite would have to use inner focus, Mantine's attack was less than steller (as was the defense) and I really wasn't going to stick with Gyarados. I've chosen to use Specially defensive garchomp with the following set and will update the OP with Skarm's adjusted set as well. This set also means I've more closely rounded out mawile as that little shit can't come in :) If you can't tell, I'm really, really excited about Garchomp. I'd use Flygon but flygon doesn't have the defense even if it does have roost.


Garchomp @ Leftovers
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 HP / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast

Yes, it's slow as a lard but a few people had commented on the lack of fire stab... Ferrothorn was an issue but now with taunt, magic coat and fire blast, he's not much of a nuisance. Landorus-I is more difficult, but Porygon2's set has been changed to a mixed bulk no HP investment, specifically to handle Lando a bit better.

Skarm now carries Taunt+Counter over SR+BraveBird, Spread remains the same. Pory2 grabs the Max+ Defense nature, Max Spdef. That should be all the changes. Updating the OP as this post goes, second post to reflect no current agenda.

 

[Zebstrika]

but Porygon2's set has been changed to a mixed bulk no HP investment, specifically to handle Lando a bit better.

Sorry, why is this an advantage to use no HP investment? Is it something unique to Lando?

252 SpA Life Orb Mew Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 58-70 (18.6 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 56-66 (18 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Mew Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 69-82 (18.4 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mew Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 66-79 (17.6 - 21.1%) -- possible 5HKO
And this still has 128 EVs left over.

 

[Ajwf]

Yeah, it's better Spdef bulk while maintaining some physical bulky. I went from only being allowed one SR switch (86% max?) to now having 75% max damage from focus blast.

 

[elitesalamander]

Amnesia is certainly an interesting concept, however I'd lose toxic, which is way more important in most games, especially for things like Charizard-X.

I was talking about replacing haze with it and I usually don't have much much trouble with charzard x as my quagsire runs earthquake(also wrecks agieslash) and can beat it in a slug fest the only move charzard x has that can 2 ko my quagsire is outrage so my quagsire plays around with most charzard x sets. Haze just seems redundant because quagsires main jobs will be dealing with setup itself not hazeing and then switching out because if your opponent catches on to that they will start boosting stats on predicted switches

 

[Srn]

I was talking about replacing haze with it and I usually don't have much much trouble with charzard x as my quagsire runs earthquake(also wrecks agieslash) and can beat it in a slug fest the only move charzard x has that can 2 ko my quagsire is outrage so my quagsire plays around with most charzard x sets. Haze just seems redundant because quagsires main jobs will be dealing with setup itself not hazeing and then switching out because if your opponent catches on to that they will start boosting stats on predicted switches

The thing is, haze is really, really, REALLY great for those dumb baton pass teams. Usually stall can't really beat it, but with haze it's a dead end for them.
Also, with pokemon like Mega Gyarados around, whose mold breaker ignores unaware, haze could be pretty handy, especially when those guys like to carry sub.
Oh don't worry AJ I've given up on baton pass, I'm getting more consistent wins with my actual team lol.

 

[nmitchell890]

I find that Chesnaught is more efficient with 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef Impish than your current spread. Punch in the calcs, you will find that Chesnaught still stands up to the physical threats it wants to, taking 43.4% max from Life Orb Bisharp using Iron Head and the same amount from Life Orb Aegislash using Shadow Claw. On the special side, Chesnaught suddenly becomes able to check things like Life Orb Thundurus, taking 49.2% max from Hidden Power [Ice], while Choice Specs Keldeo only has a 26.6% chance to 2HKO with Icy Wind after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. I don't think I need to explain how easy it is to keep Chesnaught healthy with the combination of Leech Seed, Spiky Shield, Leftovers.

 

[elitesalamander]

The thing is, haze is really, really, REALLY great for those dumb baton pass teams. Usually stall can't really beat it, but with haze it's a dead end for them.
Also, with pokemon like Mega Gyarados around, whose mold breaker ignores unaware, haze could be pretty handy, especially when those guys like to carry sub.
Oh don't worry AJ I've given up on baton pass, I'm getting more consistent wins with my actual team lol.

you defiantly have a point with the mold breaker pokemon but I find it more usefull to set up on baton passing teams as no physical attacker they pass to will break thorough quagsire and with amnesia nether will the strongest stored power users (and well as at plus 6 special defense a place you get to more then you'd think quagsire can start surviving special grass moves)

 

[Mango Smoothie]

I'm not all that familiar with stall, so I can't really comment on that aspect of the team (from what I see in your replays/the comments this is a very good team, I definitely wouldn't want to face it), so congrats on that.

On the Garchomp Set, you run sassy over Careful, which I guess makes sense to maximize Fire Blast Damage, but if you look at the calcs (these are the Pokemon Chomp is supposed to counter that I'd think it would use Fire Blast on) it doesn't make very much of a difference in the KO-ing scheme of things.

0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 264-312 (76.7 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 232-276 (65.9 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 176-208 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Compared to
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 236-280 (68.6 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 208-248 (59 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 158-188 (47.3 - 56.2%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​

So you don't lose a potential KO (other than Skarmory, and you've still got a chance there which goes up if they lack Leftovers) on these pokemon, maybe the potential OHKO with Rocks for scizor, but thats still not very likely. Also, with the -Speed Nature you speed-tie neutral base-90's, which may harm you under some cases (getting outsped by Lando-T or something like that), whereas switching to Careful Nature doesn't hurt speed while not really reducing the Fire Blast damage by a significant amount (2hkos are still 2hkos).

 

[Zebstrika]

Yeah, it's better Spdef bulk while maintaining some physical bulky. I went from only being allowed one SR switch (86% max?) to now having 75% max damage from focus blast.

I just mean if you want both physical and special bulk, HP balances them out better (the calcs in my post earlier should work the same for Lando focus blast, just with Porygon losing the same amount more health with both ev distributions). 252 HP/56 Def/72 SpD bold gives the same overall defenses (ie you take the same percent health from each attack) as 252 Def/ 252 SpD bold, but with a few EVs left over.

 

[Ajwf]

elitesalamander I might change haze after baton pass gets some nerf... Before then, I do need some chance vs it. When/If I change it, I'd probably use EQ to take Zard X after poisoning and just some added ground coverage. Set up on stall is not needed.

nmitchell890 I have Chesnaught as a dedicated Bisharp counter, it needs as much defense as possible... I'd rather have an exceptional physical wall than a forgettable mixed wall... what it targets is all physical, there's no reason to devote special just for rotom.

Mango Smoothie I'll definitely consider it, but I'm not sure there's anything in the base 90s that I want to stay in on anyways. Maybe tentacruel. Skarmory is pretty nice to have a good 2hko, but not a terrible threat to the team (In before Swords dance skarms become a thing and start crushing everything).

Zebstrika I'll look into optimizing it, then. Really, more spdef bulk is preferable to less right now due to me having to rely hard on P2... Max Spdef might be something to consider, but I don't really want to try that and lose all the physical walling I have.

 

[nmitchell890]

Its not just Rotom-W, its things like Thundurus and even Keldeo. However, I see your point, the less damage it takes from the physical threats you have it taking on the better.

 

[Monte Cristo]

keldeo and lando-i are very threatening, although your not what I would consider a good user/player or anything of the sort putting personal bias aside should be #1, especially for me, so please take this rate as someone just trying to help.

Keldeo
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Chesnaught: 226-268 (59.4 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Sylveon: 195-231 (49.4 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
your 2 top answers easily fold to this. Keldeo is one of the most threatening things to stall to exist this gen, if you insist on dumping latias and mega saur out of the window. This is oone of the reasons saur is so good, it makes keld fold like no other, and will only fear max hazards + modest specs hp flying. I suggest Latias > Garchomp as it deals with both your Lando and Keld while still countering zard-y extremely well, more DeoSharp weak but, eh, that's what QuagNaught is for, amiright?

set and explanation

@ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SDef
Bold Nature
- Recover
- Defog
- Thunderbolt / Ice Beam / Psyshock
- Toxic
252 HP / 144 Def Bold survives 2 4 atk LO Knock Offs from Landorus-I if you get good rolls. while 112 EVs remaining are thrown into sdef just to back up it's great switch in opportunities against things like Keldeo (even with specs icy wind, it doesl ike 35% max iirc) Recover is mandatory n stuff cause you need recovery. Also Defog deals with bitch ass hazard users cause fuck spikes offense 2014. The last slot goes to Tbolt/Psyshock for Char Y/Keld (and just a tiny bit for hitting Lando for neutral on psyshock > tbolt) and Ice Beam is for the 2 Lando forms and SlowChomps. (like the standard def pivot set on chomp) Toxic is really just filler but tbh it's better than your other options (also beats Lando-I if you choose Tbolt). You can use T-Wave > Toxic if you feel like being a total bitch who can't handle stalling out toxic on foes over time. :/ (jk though, use whatever variation you want)

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Latias: 132-156 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (34.6 - 40.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
176 Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Latias in Sun: 101-119 (27.7 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Latias: 190-224 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Latias: 127-151 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (just don't get 2 max rolls pls rng god)

Landorus-I
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 203-239 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Sylveon: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

USE LATIAS AND YOU KNOW WHY

 

[Subject 18]

I don't agree Latias > Garchomp at all. First off, Icy Wind Keldeo is becoming increasingly rare and HP Flying is a better option that doesn't leave you completely walled by Mega Venusaur. I personally think the switch to Latias bad mainly because you didn't solve the Keldeo/Landorus-I issue. This is because they are always paired up with a Bisharp and Latias struggles against it so it wont really be helping, rather it adds to the issue. Considering that the set you posted doesn't have LO, every variant of Bisharp can switch in and beat it one 1v1. Instead, I would use CbbNite over Garchomp and then move SR to Skarmory and drop Taunt. The set allows you to check Landorus-I, Zard Y, Keldeo and Thundurus by avoiding being 2HKOed and beating them with Dragon Claw + E-Speed barring Keldeo. But Keldeo doesn't have Recovery and you should be able to play smartly and avoid losing to it. You can see Cbb's explanation for the set with calcs if you're skeptical.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 216 HP / 64 Atk / 228 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Roost

Hope this helped and good luck. I can give you a full rate later if you really want/need me but I can't at the moment.