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Out of curiosity, how would stall change if Mega Lucario is banned? What Pokemon would become more viable for stall teams?
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Also, how does stall do against Mega Heracross? It has the raw power to break things beside Skarmory, and has Stealth Rock neutrality, so it has more freedom to switch in and out when it is checked.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 255-300 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 195-230 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(It is forced to run a physical spread in order prevent the 2HKO)
Out of curiosity, how would stall change if Mega Lucario is banned? What Pokemon would become more viable for stall teams?
---
Also, how does stall do against Mega Heracross? It has the raw power to break things beside Skarmory, and has Stealth Rock neutrality, so it has more freedom to switch in and out when it is checked.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 255-300 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 195-230 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(It is forced to run a physical spread in order prevent the 2HKO)
Burn is everywhere so it's probably not too bad. Also walled by aegislash if it doesn't have earthquake. Luckily it's not used much due to all the things that outspeed and OHKO it. However, anything with that huge attack and 2-5 hit moves that break subs is always threatening.
Out of curiosity, how would stall change if Mega Lucario is banned? What Pokemon would become more viable for stall teams?
---
Also, how does stall do against Mega Heracross? It has the raw power to break things beside Skarmory, and has Stealth Rock neutrality, so it has more freedom to switch in and out when it is checked.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 255-300 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 195-230 (46.4 - 54.7%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(It is forced to run a physical spread in order prevent the 2HKO)
I use Crobat on my stall team to prevent Mega Heracross being a problem since the most difficult variants run sub and 3 attacks, it's a massive threat to stall teams due to it's sheer power being able to break through even the most defensive mons. I've faced Mega Heracross now about 3 times before I added crobat and the pressure is immense, switching in is so hard, I lost all 3 matches because I could do nothing to it especially behind a sub. A lot of people don't regard it as a threat cause more offensive teams are like "blah blah blah talonflame" and stall teams are like "blah blah blah skarmory" which most of them fail to notice that Skarmory is a 2hko and can do nothing in return unless it either runs enough speed to outspeed or just whirlwinds it out as a check and their precious talonflame can't even check it if it's behind a sub and knows rock blast. Clefable should technically do the best job at walling this monster but 5 hits and that crit chance it's risky at best most of the time.
I find the biggest problem with creating stall teams this gen is you need this fast/strong check to a lot of these threats and this can cause massive synergy problems since like for example my Crobat it works on such a tangent to the team that unless heracross, pinsir and lucario are around it doesn't even see the light of day sometimes, although I do try to increase it's niche by using it to threaten a ohko on a lot of fighting types with it's EV spread.
Now although this is off the original topic I discussed, I found a little (kinda gimmicky, yet relevant) hard counter to Talonflame. Magcargo, with a 4x resist to fire and a 2x resist to flying it passes all the standard tests to counter talonflame YET what Magcargo does have over all over Talonflame counters like Rotom-w/h and Heatran is reliable recovery via Recover. I doubt anyone will be running for the hills to use it though on their teams, everyone is so in love with rotom-h and heatran do to their resistances, I just thought I'd put it out their in case anyone (like myself) was trying to build a non-ou mon stall team.
So, having experimented around with the "Momentum Stall" (Stealing Arthy's term, since Pivot Stall is redundant in the fact that all your pokemon are supposed to be defensive pivots). I'm going to give a little bit of an outline of my finding.
Momentum Stall
-A stall team that looks to alleviate the pressures of prediction
-A stall team that looks to garner momentum in deploying pivots
-A stall team that employs that epitomizes synergy.
General Overview:
The idea of a stall team that does not lose momentum isn't exactly novel. In fact, stall always wants to maintain some pressure as just to not be pushed back. This is true with all teams. But there generally have not been enough bulky pokemon to pull off gaining momentum in the past. The bulk required, the spinners, the clerics and mainly the weapons of user just didn't exist. There are a few things that change from traditional stall to this style. Hazard control becomes paramount. Clerics become harder to use. Every turn becomes a fight to not only maintain some pressure, but to assert complete pressure and control over the game. Pokemon have to have more specialization, and the pool to choose from becomes smaller. You have less moveslots to play with since one will almost always be to turning.
Like the idea of a voltturn team, the idea is to threaten the opponent to make predictions about your own move and force another switch. Because of this, the bulk per pokemon doesn't need to be quite as high. Bulk is still incredibly important here, but just less so than a general team. Like a stall team, recovery and longer term wincons are needed. This means quick recovery, solid bulk and good cores.
Volt Turn: -Have a way to reflect and remove hazards, or just remove.
-Have at least 4 pokemon with either u-turn or volt switch
-Generally rely on some form of hazards to add to their count
-Hard to set up on
-Midrange power, generally a few high powered, a few bulky pivots. Will not boost.
-Do not require a ton of prediction.
-Cause damage while switching... This is their main draw. -Are susceptible to being warn down by hazards quickly. Pressure attempts to stop them from being set.
-Can be very systematic and repetitious, giving the opponent time to find weaknesses in the switch pattern.
-Hate ground types, generally have at least one counter. Grounds destroy the electric volt switch users and stop the switch from happening
-Restricted to use pokemon with u-turn/volt switch. Almost all volt switch pokemon have electric typing.
Stall teams: -Have at least four pokemon with solid/reliable recovery
-Rely on heavy bulk
-Set hazards reliably, generally attempt to get rid of them
-Generally have a cleric.
-Are as predictable as the user -Easily pressured into switching
-Are susceptible to being set up on
-Low powered attacks in general. Will not boost.
Just from this overview, there are a few similarities. Hazard control, the often switching, the lack (or general lack) of boosting, use of hazards to punish switching more. But each have some similarities the other can benefit from. The obvious is Stall wanting the pressure to prevent setup sweeps. But voltturn teams would appreciate stall's access and use of recovery. They might enjoy a cleric, too. Whereas stall would love to avoid set up users, voltturn would love to be able to take hits from coverage moves (surprise HP ice hitting lando-t sucks, as does dealing with pokemon like latias, haxorus, alakazam and their limitless coverage movepool). So the objective is to start binding from what the similarities are (hazard control, switching, no need to sweep) and marry together the bulk and turning style.
Here are a quick pool of fully evolved pokemon available in OU that can use volt switch or U-turn. I took the time to bold the ones that seem usable for a stall team... That's subjective, though.
Per percent, the volt switch side presents more promising pokemon. (Manectric and Mienshao are both both for their possibly sweeping/utility ability). However, almost all of them are ground weak. But there was a few other abilities that would allow momentum consistently on switching, or at least utility to switch. These would take effect WHEN you switched and either help you by giving added benefit to switching.
Regenerator:
Pokemon with regenerator naturally have one of stall's most coveted abilities: You gain health by switching. The health gained is 33%, making your wall/tank able to function at much higher health the next time in without spending a turn to heal up. This ability can be used with assault vest to make a tank an absolute monster to try and tear down. The main draw to this ability, though, is that it BENEFITS you for switching.
Natural Cure:
Much like regenerator, natural cure is one of stall's favorite abilities. A status absorber removes a lot of pressure on the cleric to come in constantly and alleviates the low PP of heal bell. While this doesn't give you health back, paired with rest you'll still gain all HP back and be awake on the next switch in. For a volt-turn team, this means that the cleric can be sidelined a little bit and the focus can remain on pressuring. Using a cleric means pressure is lost.
Intimidate:
This, from my archaic and out of date knowledge of volt turn teams, is one of volt turn's most coveted abilities. Adding natural bulk on switches, intimidate makes physical threats a little less frightening. But it really shines in the ability to force switches or slow down physical set up sweepers. It also allows for the user to focus on special bulk and gives the temporary positives of a physical assault vest equivalent.
Frisk:
While many battlers prefer to simply use their own knowledge of the metagame to determine items, stall is still a battle of consistency. The ability to find a surprise before a surprise hurts you is invaluable. Splash plate azumarill being frisked may well save you from using latias as a switch. It isn't a fantastic ability, but easing the prediction is one of the goals of this style and frisk certainly does that.
Well, these pokemon can be used as a seperate entity from the turning core, and you should definitely draw from the full list, but there were a few worthy of mention for stall pivots that had both the ability and the turner.
These are by no means requirements, as there are only a need for four turners and the last two can be whatever. However, it is suggested the last two play a part in momentum in some way. Blissey and chansey do have natural cure for clerics, and audino clerics with regenerator. If you wanted, Togekiss is a cleric with access to defog, and so that role would stifle momentum a bit but still has utility to the team. The rest is pretty open.
Roles:
There are quite a few roles to look into on a momentum stall team, most with striking resemblance to stall.
Turners.
The main focus of this team, a momentum stall turner has a few attributes common to any that I've found to be successful. These bulky pivots have a good bit of natural speed (generally at least base 70), access to recovery and a usable stab. You should aim for three or four turners to really make this style effective, and with the limited pool of useful turn pokemon, it can be difficult. But there are two types of turners.
Utility switches. These pokemon run defog, taunt, scald, lava plume, foul play, knock off or any host of moves that benefit you through ways besides direct damage. Stealth rocks, leech seed and other hazards aren't ways to apply pressure but seem to work on these as well. The main point here is to apply pressure through means other than damage. Taunting clerics, taking away useful items and burning important users are some of the most important things they do. Mandibuzz is probably one of the best in this role.
Destructive Switches. These few pokemon (generally one or two on a stall team) just have massive attacks/attack stats to abuse and wall break the opponent. The next time they try to counter you, they're going to find it exceedingly difficult. Overheat, leaf storm and draco meteor are great attacks on these users because pivoting out after means you don't lose too much by doing so. Now, these pokemon are still bulky, but they just come with good attack stats to benefit them. Landorus-t, Scizor-m, and the rotom forms are all good examples.
Non-turn Tank/Wall:
Generally, a team with limited options to begin with needs some patch work anywhere it can get. I have found that taking a spot away from the limits of voltturn and then looking through useful abilities (listed above) is a good way to help this issue. This pokemon breaks about every other mold. It is slow, does not care about pressure, and is solely there to beat specific counters (and a host of other counters that it naturally beats). It is, on any other stall team, a normal, unsurprising pokemon to see. This pokemon is best chosen last to beat out what you would naturally struggle with and help fill in what issues the limited pool of voltturners exist. Choosing Jellicent for Keldeo or Heatran for Talonflame are two examples. This doesn't mean this pokemon isn't important to your core. A rotom-wash/Cobalion core can still rely on latias to help out.
Clerics/Pseudo-Clerics:
Now, I said that clerics lose you all momentum. A good momentum stall team would alleviate the need for a cleric to be in constantly, but a cleric cannot be ignored. However, a simple wish or heal bell user can be applied as part of the utility core and play a pseudo-cleric. Pokemon like celebi with heal bell/healing wish, jirachi with wish and mew who gets both can play a cleric that may be less effective or just not have the full arsenal of cleric moves. No matter how hard you try, blissey and chansey still will lose momentum. However, Audino becomes viable in a switch stall team due to regenerator alleviating its own recovery needs. With slightly more bulk than Clefable, it is perfectly viable. This spot is the weakest spot on a team and takes some creativity so as not to lose the team too much.
Hazard Setter/Hazard Clearer:
While optimally, these are also a part of the switch core, both these roles are absolutely critical and should be used only from the best available pool. These should have a bunch of resists to allow them to be consistent, and the hazard clearer should almost always have access to recovery. If this pokemon dies, you are at such an incredible disadvantage that the death of this slot may be the difference between winning and losing. There are a few hazard clearers (and a bunch of setters) that can turn. These are mew, zapdos, articuno, forretress, scizor, mandibuzz, and a niche user in Flygon (who does have roost, fyi).
Noticeable Users
There are a few players that every team would be hard pressed to not at least look at.
Rotom- (Wash, Heat, Ghost)
This one is an absolute must-have on these teams. Providing the most diversity in types of any electric user as well as the best ability (outside Spin...), Rotom has the access to complete or start any core required and is one of the only fire types with natural access to volt switch/u-turn. I won't go on about his sets, we know them. But rotom-h does have that beautiful access to overheat. I strongly suggest pain split over rest and chesto berry as after the first time, you have to find a way to heal bell for him.
Rotom-wash and Rotom-heat are two single great checks for the meta, taking on talonflame, mega pinsir, Heatran and multiple other pokemon that commonly appear. All the rotom forms do well against pinsir-m, exception cut. Just remember that mold breaker excadrill has a field day with all (but spin...).
Celebi
Celebi not only has access to U-turn, heal bell, leaf storm, recover, and stealth rocks, it has natural bulk to go along with it. Celebi fills in as a status absorber, a pseduo-cleric and a wall breaker, whichever you so choose. While hellishly genesect weak, this pokemon still has reliable bulk and a fantastic move pool.
Magnezone
While an odd choice at first glance, magnezone has some crucial upsides that cannot be ignored. Although incredibly weak to ground, Magnezone's magnet pull allows him to take care of skarmory, ferrothorn, and Forretress, preventing them from setting more hazards later on. With 70/115/90 defenses, he becomes a great user of an assault vest and 130 SpA uninvested matches Heatran's destruction. While the ground weakness is costly, he has 11 resists, 1 immunity and only 3 weaknesses. Those weaknesses just happen to be common (though fighting has faded a bit).
Xatu
A volt turn team staple, Xatu possesses one of the best abilities in the game, magic bounce. This ability scares most stealth rock setters into not setting immediately, and may also score hazards being placed on the other side of the field. Make no mistake, Xatu is not a replacement to a rock setter, but the usefulness of Magic Bounce is not to be underestimated. With below average bulk, Xatu may struggle a bit, but it has access to roost, screens and u-turn.
Tornadus-T
One of the two users of U-turn that also has regenerator, Tornadus-T has some legendary fire power to couple with it's very sizable bulk. He can run assault vest, life orb or even lefties successfully and do damage with powerful coverage moves such as heat wave, knock off/dark pulse, focus blast/super power and sludge bomb. This isn't even including his monstrous stab, Hurricane and other sizable attack in air slash. He can be set to outspeed mega pinsir, mega lucario and takes care of mega heracross easily. Super power also OHKOs Bisharp. His offense is a great defense against stall threats.
Mega Scizor
The single-best defog user in the game, Mega scizor has incredible physical bulk to couple his hazard removal. He has one weakness and a host of resists as well as roost. His access to tech stab bullet punch is incredibly useful for finishing off weakened pokemon, and he is nigh impossible to take down with physical attacks. If not using mega ampharos for the heal bell or mega manectric for the offensive power, scizor is an absolute must.
Mega Ampharos
Mega Ampharos is one of the bulkiest turners with 90/105/110 defenses and a fantastic 165 SpA. The movepool is shallow, but does include access to heal bell. Ampharos should be used on a team that has a dedicated wish passer, as a sleep talk set is unreliable on a momentum-based team. However, the attacks do a great deal of damage and the heal bell support allows Mega Ampharos to fill a pseudo-cleric spot.
Landorus-Therian
Landorus-T is another major voltturn team staple, running intimidate to give it increased physical bulk. One of the few reliably rock setters in the volt turn list, Landorus-t can hang his hat on above average speed, massive attack, and added physical bulk. His access to stealth rocks, earth quake, stone edge and knock off make him both a good heavy attacker and utility user when coupled with intimidate. Scarfing him is a great way to round out issues to mega lucario and pinsir-m. An assault vest might be considered as well, but the extent of success from this set has yet to be seen.
~~~~~~~~
So, thoughts? I've been testing this style out (still tweaking the team a bit) but this is an unbelievably good play style with more promise than any other stall type I've seen. It is limited in options, but the concept is so novel right now that there is hardly a 'mold' to follow. And the set choices themselves offer enough new variety that it is very hard to see the same team twice. This is mostly because mew, celebi, jirachi and a few other pokes with huge move pools have u-turn.
So, having experimented around with the "Momentum Stall" (Stealing Arthy's term, since Pivot Stall is redundant in the fact that all your pokemon are supposed to be defensive pivots). I'm going to give a little bit of an outline of my finding.
Momentum Stall
-A stall team that looks to alleviate the pressures of prediction
-A stall team that looks to garner momentum in deploying pivots
-A stall team that employs that epitomizes synergy.
General Overview:
The idea of a stall team that does not lose momentum isn't exactly novel. In fact, stall always wants to maintain some pressure as just to not be pushed back. This is true with all teams. But there generally have not been enough bulky pokemon to pull off gaining momentum in the past. The bulk required, the spinners, the clerics and mainly the weapons of user just didn't exist. There are a few things that change from traditional stall to this style. Hazard control becomes paramount. Clerics become harder to use. Every turn becomes a fight to not only maintain some pressure, but to assert complete pressure and control over the game. Pokemon have to have more specialization, and the pool to choose from becomes smaller. You have less moveslots to play with since one will almost always be to turning.
Like the idea of a voltturn team, the idea is to threaten the opponent to make predictions about your own move and force another switch. Because of this, the bulk per pokemon doesn't need to be quite as high. Bulk is still incredibly important here, but just less so than a general team. Like a stall team, recovery and longer term wincons are needed. This means quick recovery, solid bulk and good cores.
Volt Turn: -Have a way to reflect and remove hazards, or just remove.
-Have at least 4 pokemon with either u-turn or volt switch
-Generally rely on some form of hazards to add to their count
-Hard to set up on
-Midrange power, generally a few high powered, a few bulky pivots. Will not boost.
-Do not require a ton of prediction.
-Cause damage while switching... This is their main draw. -Are susceptible to being warn down by hazards quickly. Pressure attempts to stop them from being set.
-Can be very systematic and repetitious, giving the opponent time to find weaknesses in the switch pattern.
-Hate ground types, generally have at least one counter. Grounds destroy the electric volt switch users and stop the switch from happening
-Restricted to use pokemon with u-turn/volt switch. Almost all volt switch pokemon have electric typing.
Stall teams: -Have at least four pokemon with solid/reliable recovery
-Rely on heavy bulk
-Set hazards reliably, generally attempt to get rid of them
-Generally have a cleric.
-Are as predictable as the user -Easily pressured into switching
-Are susceptible to being set up on
-Low powered attacks in general. Will not boost.
Just from this overview, there are a few similarities. Hazard control, the often switching, the lack (or general lack) of boosting, use of hazards to punish switching more. But each have some similarities the other can benefit from. The obvious is Stall wanting the pressure to prevent setup sweeps. But voltturn teams would appreciate stall's access and use of recovery. They might enjoy a cleric, too. Whereas stall would love to avoid set up users, voltturn would love to be able to take hits from coverage moves (surprise HP ice hitting lando-t sucks, as does dealing with pokemon like latias, haxorus, alakazam and their limitless coverage movepool). So the objective is to start binding from what the similarities are (hazard control, switching, no need to sweep) and marry together the bulk and turning style.
Here are a quick pool of fully evolved pokemon available in OU that can use volt switch or U-turn. I took the time to bold the ones that seem usable for a stall team... That's subjective, though.
Per percent, the volt switch side presents more promising pokemon. (Manectric and Mienshao are both both for their possibly sweeping/utility ability). However, almost all of them are ground weak. But there was a few other abilities that would allow momentum consistently on switching, or at least utility to switch. These would take effect WHEN you switched and either help you by giving added benefit to switching.
Regenerator:
Pokemon with regenerator naturally have one of stall's most coveted abilities: You gain health by switching. The health gained is 33%, making your wall/tank able to function at much higher health the next time in without spending a turn to heal up. This ability can be used with assault vest to make a tank an absolute monster to try and tear down. The main draw to this ability, though, is that it BENEFITS you for switching.
Natural Cure:
Much like regenerator, natural cure is one of stall's favorite abilities. A status absorber removes a lot of pressure on the cleric to come in constantly and alleviates the low PP of heal bell. While this doesn't give you health back, paired with rest you'll still gain all HP back and be awake on the next switch in. For a volt-turn team, this means that the cleric can be sidelined a little bit and the focus can remain on pressuring. Using a cleric means pressure is lost.
Intimidate:
This, from my archaic and out of date knowledge of volt turn teams, is one of volt turn's most coveted abilities. Adding natural bulk on switches, intimidate makes physical threats a little less frightening. But it really shines in the ability to force switches or slow down physical set up sweepers. It also allows for the user to focus on special bulk and gives the temporary positives of a physical assault vest equivalent.
Frisk:
While many battlers prefer to simply use their own knowledge of the metagame to determine items, stall is still a battle of consistency. The ability to find a surprise before a surprise hurts you is invaluable. Splash plate azumarill being frisked may well save you from using latias as a switch. It isn't a fantastic ability, but easing the prediction is one of the goals of this style and frisk certainly does that.
Well, these pokemon can be used as a seperate entity from the turning core, and you should definitely draw from the full list, but there were a few worthy of mention for stall pivots that had both the ability and the turner.
These are by no means requirements, as there are only a need for four turners and the last two can be whatever. However, it is suggested the last two play a part in momentum in some way. Blissey and chansey do have natural cure for clerics, and audino clerics with regenerator. If you wanted, Togekiss is a cleric with access to defog, and so that role would stifle momentum a bit but still has utility to the team. The rest is pretty open.
Roles:
There are quite a few roles to look into on a momentum stall team, most with striking resemblance to stall.
Turners.
The main focus of this team, a momentum stall turner has a few attributes common to any that I've found to be successful. These bulky pivots have a good bit of natural speed (generally at least base 70), access to recovery and a usable stab. You should aim for three or four turners to really make this style effective, and with the limited pool of useful turn pokemon, it can be difficult. But there are two types of turners.
Utility switches. These pokemon run defog, taunt, scald, lava plume, foul play, knock off or any host of moves that benefit you through ways besides direct damage. Stealth rocks, leech seed and other hazards aren't ways to apply pressure but seem to work on these as well. The main point here is to apply pressure through means other than damage. Taunting clerics, taking away useful items and burning important users are some of the most important things they do. Mandibuzz is probably one of the best in this role.
Destructive Switches. These few pokemon (generally one or two on a stall team) just have massive attacks/attack stats to abuse and wall break the opponent. The next time they try to counter you, they're going to find it exceedingly difficult. Overheat, leaf storm and draco meteor are great attacks on these users because pivoting out after means you don't lose too much by doing so. Now, these pokemon are still bulky, but they just come with good attack stats to benefit them. Landorus-t, Scizor-m, and the rotom forms are all good examples.
Non-turn Tank/Wall:
Generally, a team with limited options to begin with needs some patch work anywhere it can get. I have found that taking a spot away from the limits of voltturn and then looking through useful abilities (listed above) is a good way to help this issue. This pokemon breaks about every other mold. It is slow, does not care about pressure, and is solely there to beat specific counters (and a host of other counters that it naturally beats). It is, on any other stall team, a normal, unsurprising pokemon to see. This pokemon is best chosen last to beat out what you would naturally struggle with and help fill in what issues the limited pool of voltturners exist. Choosing Jellicent for Keldeo or Heatran for Talonflame are two examples. This doesn't mean this pokemon isn't important to your core. A rotom-wash/Cobalion core can still rely on latias to help out.
Clerics/Pseudo-Clerics:
Now, I said that clerics lose you all momentum. A good momentum stall team would alleviate the need for a cleric to be in constantly, but a cleric cannot be ignored. However, a simple wish or heal bell user can be applied as part of the utility core and play a pseudo-cleric. Pokemon like celebi with heal bell/healing wish, jirachi with wish and mew who gets both can play a cleric that may be less effective or just not have the full arsenal of cleric moves. No matter how hard you try, blissey and chansey still will lose momentum. However, Audino becomes viable in a switch stall team due to regenerator alleviating its own recovery needs. With slightly more bulk than Clefable, it is perfectly viable. This spot is the weakest spot on a team and takes some creativity so as not to lose the team too much.
Hazard Setter/Hazard Clearer:
While optimally, these are also a part of the switch core, both these roles are absolutely critical and should be used only from the best available pool. These should have a bunch of resists to allow them to be consistent, and the hazard clearer should almost always have access to recovery. If this pokemon dies, you are at such an incredible disadvantage that the death of this slot may be the difference between winning and losing. There are a few hazard clearers (and a bunch of setters) that can turn. These are mew, zapdos, articuno, forretress, scizor, mandibuzz, and a niche user in Flygon (who does have roost, fyi).
Noticeable Users
There are a few players that every team would be hard pressed to not at least look at.
Rotom- (Wash, Heat, Ghost)
This one is an absolute must-have on these teams. Providing the most diversity in types of any electric user as well as the best ability (outside Spin...), Rotom has the access to complete or start any core required and is one of the only fire types with natural access to volt switch/u-turn. I won't go on about his sets, we know them. But rotom-h does have that beautiful access to overheat. I strongly suggest pain split over rest and chesto berry as after the first time, you have to find a way to heal bell for him.
Rotom-wash and Rotom-heat are two single great checks for the meta, taking on talonflame, mega pinsir, Heatran and multiple other pokemon that commonly appear. All the rotom forms do well against pinsir-m, exception cut. Just remember that mold breaker excadrill has a field day with all (but spin...).
Celebi
Celebi not only has access to U-turn, heal bell, leaf storm, recover, and stealth rocks, it has natural bulk to go along with it. Celebi fills in as a status absorber, a pseduo-cleric and a wall breaker, whichever you so choose. While hellishly genesect weak, this pokemon still has reliable bulk and a fantastic move pool.
Magnezone
While an odd choice at first glance, magnezone has some crucial upsides that cannot be ignored. Although incredibly weak to ground, Magnezone's magnet pull allows him to take care of skarmory, ferrothorn, and Forretress, preventing them from setting more hazards later on. With 70/115/90 defenses, he becomes a great user of an assault vest and 130 SpA uninvested matches Heatran's destruction. While the ground weakness is costly, he has 11 resists, 1 immunity and only 3 weaknesses. Those weaknesses just happen to be common (though fighting has faded a bit).
Xatu
A volt turn team staple, Xatu possesses one of the best abilities in the game, magic bounce. This ability scares most stealth rock setters into not setting immediately, and may also score hazards being placed on the other side of the field. Make no mistake, Xatu is not a replacement to a rock setter, but the usefulness of Magic Bounce is not to be underestimated. With below average bulk, Xatu may struggle a bit, but it has access to roost, screens and u-turn.
Tornadus-T
One of the two users of U-turn that also has regenerator, Tornadus-T has some legendary fire power to couple with it's very sizable bulk. He can run assault vest, life orb or even lefties successfully and do damage with powerful coverage moves such as heat wave, knock off/dark pulse, focus blast/super power and sludge bomb. This isn't even including his monstrous stab, Hurricane and other sizable attack in air slash. He can be set to outspeed mega pinsir, mega lucario and takes care of mega heracross easily. Super power also OHKOs Bisharp. His offense is a great defense against stall threats.
Mega Scizor
The single-best defog user in the game, Mega scizor has incredible physical bulk to couple his hazard removal. He has one weakness and a host of resists as well as roost. His access to tech stab bullet punch is incredibly useful for finishing off weakened pokemon, and he is nigh impossible to take down with physical attacks. If not using mega ampharos for the heal bell or mega manectric for the offensive power, scizor is an absolute must.
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So, thoughts? I've been testing this style out (still tweaking the team a bit) but this is an unbelievably good play style with more promise than any other stall type I've seen. It is limited in options, but the concept is so novel right now that there is hardly a 'mold' to follow. And the set choices themselves offer enough new variety that it is very hard to see the same team twice. This is mostly because mew, celebi, jirachi and a few other pokes with huge move pools have u-turn.
I think this is a great style, and it looks similar to a volt-turn team I made in gen 5 (I really hate using frail pokemon lol). I think slowbro + AV is worth mentioning, having great defenses and access to a STAB scald and great neutral coverage in general with ice beam. I think with these teams it might be super tempting to use genesect, just because of its coverage and ability. I might build one again to see how it does. I've actually tried AV-Torn, but it seems rather underwhelming.
Oh, also, mega-ampharos is badass. Great bulk, STAB base 165 spA (iirc) volt switch, and access to heal bell should be mentioned.
The only issue with mega ampharos as a turner/cleric is that she gets blocked by ground types... As is, even pseduo clerics are going to lose you something if you're outsped, but a direct switch to gliscor/gastrodon can really mess up Amparhos-m's day. I'll add it eventually for sure, I just don't know a good set right now.
I actually use AV slowbro (as he is one of my favorites this gen). He works fantastically and I would mention him if it wasn't for the fact that the spot he fills is supposed to be the most open spot of the whole category. Genesect... is probably a worse version of something like LO torn-t, to be honest. Gen's bulk doesn't help him and really just puts added pressure on the clerics. It also forces a wish cleric to be used at minimum. On the team I have, I run 4 reliable, 1 unreliable and 1 regen recovery. I would say that his overlapped typing with mega scizor and lack of any meaningful recovery shoots him in the foot on a stall style that takes 60+ turns. Remember, when you bring something in on this style, they know that the pokemon you bring in is able to heavily harm their switch/currently in pokemon.
As for Torn-T, it's slim pickings on pokemon that can actually outspeed mega lucario and do work. His AV version might not be the greatest ever, but he still has a ton of merits (aka the LO style) outside of AV.
The only issue with mega ampharos as a turner/cleric is that she gets blocked by ground types... As is, even pseduo clerics are going to lose you something if you're outsped, but a direct switch to gliscor/gastrodon can really mess up Amparhos-m's day. I'll add it eventually for sure, I just don't know a good set right now.
I actually use AV slowbro (as he is one of my favorites this gen). He works fantastically and I would mention him if it wasn't for the fact that the spot he fills is supposed to be the most open spot of the whole category. Genesect... is probably a worse version of something like LO torn-t, to be honest. Gen's bulk doesn't help him and really just puts added pressure on the clerics. It also forces a wish cleric to be used at minimum. On the team I have, I run 4 reliable, 1 unreliable and 1 regen recovery. I would say that his overlapped typing with mega scizor and lack of any meaningful recovery shoots him in the foot on a stall style that takes 60+ turns. Remember, when you bring something in on this style, they know that the pokemon you bring in is able to heavily harm their switch/currently in pokemon.
As for Torn-T, it's slim pickings on pokemon that can actually outspeed mega lucario and do work. His AV version might not be the greatest ever, but he still has a ton of merits (aka the LO style) outside of AV.
Hmm... but arguably most volt switchers are ruined by ground types (except Rotom-W, I guess). Mega Ampharos gets heal bell, screens, toxic, volt switch, and has more than enough SpA to run HP ice to hit ground types such as gliscor, garchomp, and landorus-t on the switch. It also gets sub/agility if you want to easy prediction a bit.
I messed with this for a little bit just to see if it would work:
Ampharos @ Ampharosite
Trait: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell/Dragon Pulse
I needed a cleric on another stall team I was trying out that could also stand up to Talonflame and Rotom-W without getting worn down, so I came up with this. It's basically a variant on the recommended set Mega Ampharos should run in XY OU. This looks so lol I know, but in testing it was actually pretty decent. Rest is Ampharos' most reliable recovery and Sleep Talk, despite it's lack of reliability sometimes (the bad roll is inevitable), keeps it from being setup bait. Volt Switch is obviously for momentum and still hits pretty hard despite it not being Thunderbolt. Heal Bell is Heal Bell, though it could easily be Dragon Pulse if you don't need a cleric. Sleep Talking a Heal Bell turn 1 is hilarious though. 52 Speed EVs outrun any Azumarill that wants to run 8 Speed which is pretty important IMO. I went with a physically bulkier spread with a Bold nature, unlike the standard spread suggested. I feel like between the added Dragon-typing and 90/110 base HP and Special Defense, Ampharos takes common special attacks well enough as long as sun or rain isn't up. That and it keeps you from getting OHKO'd by Mega Pinsir's Earthquake so you can Volt Switch it's face while you pivot out. It OHKOs after SR even if it takes SR damage as a regular Pinsir IIRC. Yes, this is walled by Ground types if you run Heal Bell, but y'know...teammates and all.
RestTalk/Heal bell is rather restrictive. I think the best set may be three attack (volt turn/Dragon pulse/hidden power) and twave/heal bell (mold breaker allows Twave to cut through magic bounce... Also should allow toxic to damage magic guard users). Volt switch is only blockable by ground types, which is nice for any straggling motor drive/volt absorb pokemon.
Also added Lando-t. He's bulky, has rocks and is a great offensive presence. His access to knock off helps him run an assault vest and still apply support, and he could run a slight gimmick fling scarf set to give the team options in case of mega lucario/pinsir (and getting rid of scarf otherwise). Would only be 10 BP, so it does seem gimmick but Edgequake, rocks and fling would allow him to fulfill a roll as a wall breaker and scarfer on a match to match basis...
RestTalk/Heal bell is rather restrictive. I think the best set may be three attack (volt turn/Dragon pulse/hidden power) and twave/heal bell (mold breaker allows Twave to cut through magic bounce... Also should allow toxic to damage magic guard users). Volt switch is only blockable by ground types, which is nice for any straggling motor drive/volt absorb pokemon.
Also added Lando-t. He's bulky, has rocks and is a great offensive presence. His access to knock off helps him run an assault vest and still apply support, and he could run a slight gimmick fling scarf set to give the team options in case of mega lucario/pinsir (and getting rid of scarf otherwise). Would only be 10 BP, so it does seem gimmick but Edgequake, rocks and fling would allow him to fulfill a roll as a wall breaker and scarfer on a match to match basis...
Yeah I was surprised lando-t wasn't there. It can effectively run a scarf set, although it kinda makes its ability a bit less useful. Assault vest seems great on it, except it doesn't have any means of recovery at all, which is quite a problem since lando-t switches into so many physical attacks. AV makes it a much better check to Aegislash, which typically spams shadow ball on its pivot turn. Not sure how fling works out with scarf, I've never seen that before (it also means you lose an item).
I really see few match-ups were Assault Vest Lando-T would be a good idea. Perhaps Gengar, Espeon, Clefable, Thundurus, and Sylveon he would perform better?
Aegislash is now running Shadow Ball so that's a good idea.
He would do better to stay out of Ice Beams and Hydro Pumps altogether.
On that list of things you can run on pivot stall, you should add Lanturn and Gliscor. Lanturn offers a lot of things such as Heal Bell and a hard Rotom-w counter. It also stomps on Talonflame and Tornadus(-T). It has a pretty decent niche, the only thing is it shouldn't be run if you have Rotom-W on the same team. It's definitely not outclassed, though. Gliscor is just a much bulkier version of Landorus-T. Poison Heal is kind of like Regenerator where you can get tons of recovery just by switching in off of a pivot. The team I've been using them on is more on the toxic stall side, but it attempts to maintain the same pressure (http://pastebin.com/f3utFvLi) as more offensive versions. The team's hit 161x on PO so that shows that the idea works on even more defensive versions of the team.
So, having experimented around with the "Momentum Stall" (Stealing Arthy's term, since Pivot Stall is redundant in the fact that all your pokemon are supposed to be defensive pivots). I'm going to give a little bit of an outline of my finding.
Momentum Stall
-A stall team that looks to alleviate the pressures of prediction
-A stall team that looks to garner momentum in deploying pivots
-A stall team that employs that epitomizes synergy.
General Overview:
The idea of a stall team that does not lose momentum isn't exactly novel. In fact, stall always wants to maintain some pressure as just to not be pushed back. This is true with all teams. But there generally have not been enough bulky pokemon to pull off gaining momentum in the past. The bulk required, the spinners, the clerics and mainly the weapons of user just didn't exist. There are a few things that change from traditional stall to this style. Hazard control becomes paramount. Clerics become harder to use. Every turn becomes a fight to not only maintain some pressure, but to assert complete pressure and control over the game. Pokemon have to have more specialization, and the pool to choose from becomes smaller. You have less moveslots to play with since one will almost always be to turning.
Like the idea of a voltturn team, the idea is to threaten the opponent to make predictions about your own move and force another switch. Because of this, the bulk per pokemon doesn't need to be quite as high. Bulk is still incredibly important here, but just less so than a general team. Like a stall team, recovery and longer term wincons are needed. This means quick recovery, solid bulk and good cores.
Volt Turn: -Have a way to reflect and remove hazards, or just remove.
-Have at least 4 pokemon with either u-turn or volt switch
-Generally rely on some form of hazards to add to their count
-Hard to set up on
-Midrange power, generally a few high powered, a few bulky pivots. Will not boost.
-Do not require a ton of prediction.
-Cause damage while switching... This is their main draw. -Are susceptible to being warn down by hazards quickly. Pressure attempts to stop them from being set.
-Can be very systematic and repetitious, giving the opponent time to find weaknesses in the switch pattern.
-Hate ground types, generally have at least one counter. Grounds destroy the electric volt switch users and stop the switch from happening
-Restricted to use pokemon with u-turn/volt switch. Almost all volt switch pokemon have electric typing.
Stall teams: -Have at least four pokemon with solid/reliable recovery
-Rely on heavy bulk
-Set hazards reliably, generally attempt to get rid of them
-Generally have a cleric.
-Are as predictable as the user -Easily pressured into switching
-Are susceptible to being set up on
-Low powered attacks in general. Will not boost.
Just from this overview, there are a few similarities. Hazard control, the often switching, the lack (or general lack) of boosting, use of hazards to punish switching more. But each have some similarities the other can benefit from. The obvious is Stall wanting the pressure to prevent setup sweeps. But voltturn teams would appreciate stall's access and use of recovery. They might enjoy a cleric, too. Whereas stall would love to avoid set up users, voltturn would love to be able to take hits from coverage moves (surprise HP ice hitting lando-t sucks, as does dealing with pokemon like latias, haxorus, alakazam and their limitless coverage movepool). So the objective is to start binding from what the similarities are (hazard control, switching, no need to sweep) and marry together the bulk and turning style.
Here are a quick pool of fully evolved pokemon available in OU that can use volt switch or U-turn. I took the time to bold the ones that seem usable for a stall team... That's subjective, though.
Per percent, the volt switch side presents more promising pokemon. (Manectric and Mienshao are both both for their possibly sweeping/utility ability). However, almost all of them are ground weak. But there was a few other abilities that would allow momentum consistently on switching, or at least utility to switch. These would take effect WHEN you switched and either help you by giving added benefit to switching.
Regenerator:
Pokemon with regenerator naturally have one of stall's most coveted abilities: You gain health by switching. The health gained is 33%, making your wall/tank able to function at much higher health the next time in without spending a turn to heal up. This ability can be used with assault vest to make a tank an absolute monster to try and tear down. The main draw to this ability, though, is that it BENEFITS you for switching.
Natural Cure:
Much like regenerator, natural cure is one of stall's favorite abilities. A status absorber removes a lot of pressure on the cleric to come in constantly and alleviates the low PP of heal bell. While this doesn't give you health back, paired with rest you'll still gain all HP back and be awake on the next switch in. For a volt-turn team, this means that the cleric can be sidelined a little bit and the focus can remain on pressuring. Using a cleric means pressure is lost.
Intimidate:
This, from my archaic and out of date knowledge of volt turn teams, is one of volt turn's most coveted abilities. Adding natural bulk on switches, intimidate makes physical threats a little less frightening. But it really shines in the ability to force switches or slow down physical set up sweepers. It also allows for the user to focus on special bulk and gives the temporary positives of a physical assault vest equivalent.
Frisk:
While many battlers prefer to simply use their own knowledge of the metagame to determine items, stall is still a battle of consistency. The ability to find a surprise before a surprise hurts you is invaluable. Splash plate azumarill being frisked may well save you from using latias as a switch. It isn't a fantastic ability, but easing the prediction is one of the goals of this style and frisk certainly does that.
Well, these pokemon can be used as a seperate entity from the turning core, and you should definitely draw from the full list, but there were a few worthy of mention for stall pivots that had both the ability and the turner.
These are by no means requirements, as there are only a need for four turners and the last two can be whatever. However, it is suggested the last two play a part in momentum in some way. Blissey and chansey do have natural cure for clerics, and audino clerics with regenerator. If you wanted, Togekiss is a cleric with access to defog, and so that role would stifle momentum a bit but still has utility to the team. The rest is pretty open.
Roles:
There are quite a few roles to look into on a momentum stall team, most with striking resemblance to stall.
Turners.
The main focus of this team, a momentum stall turner has a few attributes common to any that I've found to be successful. These bulky pivots have a good bit of natural speed (generally at least base 70), access to recovery and a usable stab. You should aim for three or four turners to really make this style effective, and with the limited pool of useful turn pokemon, it can be difficult. But there are two types of turners.
Utility switches. These pokemon run defog, taunt, scald, lava plume, foul play, knock off or any host of moves that benefit you through ways besides direct damage. Stealth rocks, leech seed and other hazards aren't ways to apply pressure but seem to work on these as well. The main point here is to apply pressure through means other than damage. Taunting clerics, taking away useful items and burning important users are some of the most important things they do. Mandibuzz is probably one of the best in this role.
Destructive Switches. These few pokemon (generally one or two on a stall team) just have massive attacks/attack stats to abuse and wall break the opponent. The next time they try to counter you, they're going to find it exceedingly difficult. Overheat, leaf storm and draco meteor are great attacks on these users because pivoting out after means you don't lose too much by doing so. Now, these pokemon are still bulky, but they just come with good attack stats to benefit them. Landorus-t, Scizor-m, and the rotom forms are all good examples.
Non-turn Tank/Wall:
Generally, a team with limited options to begin with needs some patch work anywhere it can get. I have found that taking a spot away from the limits of voltturn and then looking through useful abilities (listed above) is a good way to help this issue. This pokemon breaks about every other mold. It is slow, does not care about pressure, and is solely there to beat specific counters (and a host of other counters that it naturally beats). It is, on any other stall team, a normal, unsurprising pokemon to see. This pokemon is best chosen last to beat out what you would naturally struggle with and help fill in what issues the limited pool of voltturners exist. Choosing Jellicent for Keldeo or Heatran for Talonflame are two examples. This doesn't mean this pokemon isn't important to your core. A rotom-wash/Cobalion core can still rely on latias to help out.
Clerics/Pseudo-Clerics:
Now, I said that clerics lose you all momentum. A good momentum stall team would alleviate the need for a cleric to be in constantly, but a cleric cannot be ignored. However, a simple wish or heal bell user can be applied as part of the utility core and play a pseudo-cleric. Pokemon like celebi with heal bell/healing wish, jirachi with wish and mew who gets both can play a cleric that may be less effective or just not have the full arsenal of cleric moves. No matter how hard you try, blissey and chansey still will lose momentum. However, Audino becomes viable in a switch stall team due to regenerator alleviating its own recovery needs. With slightly more bulk than Clefable, it is perfectly viable. This spot is the weakest spot on a team and takes some creativity so as not to lose the team too much.
Hazard Setter/Hazard Clearer:
While optimally, these are also a part of the switch core, both these roles are absolutely critical and should be used only from the best available pool. These should have a bunch of resists to allow them to be consistent, and the hazard clearer should almost always have access to recovery. If this pokemon dies, you are at such an incredible disadvantage that the death of this slot may be the difference between winning and losing. There are a few hazard clearers (and a bunch of setters) that can turn. These are mew, zapdos, articuno, forretress, scizor, mandibuzz, and a niche user in Flygon (who does have roost, fyi).
Noticeable Users
There are a few players that every team would be hard pressed to not at least look at.
Rotom- (Wash, Heat, Ghost)
This one is an absolute must-have on these teams. Providing the most diversity in types of any electric user as well as the best ability (outside Spin...), Rotom has the access to complete or start any core required and is one of the only fire types with natural access to volt switch/u-turn. I won't go on about his sets, we know them. But rotom-h does have that beautiful access to overheat. I strongly suggest pain split over rest and chesto berry as after the first time, you have to find a way to heal bell for him.
Rotom-wash and Rotom-heat are two single great checks for the meta, taking on talonflame, mega pinsir, Heatran and multiple other pokemon that commonly appear. All the rotom forms do well against pinsir-m, exception cut. Just remember that mold breaker excadrill has a field day with all (but spin...).
Celebi
Celebi not only has access to U-turn, heal bell, leaf storm, recover, and stealth rocks, it has natural bulk to go along with it. Celebi fills in as a status absorber, a pseduo-cleric and a wall breaker, whichever you so choose. While hellishly genesect weak, this pokemon still has reliable bulk and a fantastic move pool.
Magnezone
While an odd choice at first glance, magnezone has some crucial upsides that cannot be ignored. Although incredibly weak to ground, Magnezone's magnet pull allows him to take care of skarmory, ferrothorn, and Forretress, preventing them from setting more hazards later on. With 70/115/90 defenses, he becomes a great user of an assault vest and 130 SpA uninvested matches Heatran's destruction. While the ground weakness is costly, he has 11 resists, 1 immunity and only 3 weaknesses. Those weaknesses just happen to be common (though fighting has faded a bit).
Xatu
A volt turn team staple, Xatu possesses one of the best abilities in the game, magic bounce. This ability scares most stealth rock setters into not setting immediately, and may also score hazards being placed on the other side of the field. Make no mistake, Xatu is not a replacement to a rock setter, but the usefulness of Magic Bounce is not to be underestimated. With below average bulk, Xatu may struggle a bit, but it has access to roost, screens and u-turn.
Tornadus-T
One of the two users of U-turn that also has regenerator, Tornadus-T has some legendary fire power to couple with it's very sizable bulk. He can run assault vest, life orb or even lefties successfully and do damage with powerful coverage moves such as heat wave, knock off/dark pulse, focus blast/super power and sludge bomb. This isn't even including his monstrous stab, Hurricane and other sizable attack in air slash. He can be set to outspeed mega pinsir, mega lucario and takes care of mega heracross easily. Super power also OHKOs Bisharp. His offense is a great defense against stall threats.
Mega Scizor
The single-best defog user in the game, Mega scizor has incredible physical bulk to couple his hazard removal. He has one weakness and a host of resists as well as roost. His access to tech stab bullet punch is incredibly useful for finishing off weakened pokemon, and he is nigh impossible to take down with physical attacks. If not using mega ampharos for the heal bell or mega manectric for the offensive power, scizor is an absolute must.
Mega Ampharos
Mega Ampharos is one of the bulkiest turners with 90/105/110 defenses and a fantastic 165 SpA. The movepool is shallow, but does include access to heal bell. Ampharos should be used on a team that has a dedicated wish passer, as a sleep talk set is unreliable on a momentum-based team. However, the attacks do a great deal of damage and the heal bell support allows Mega Ampharos to fill a pseudo-cleric spot.
Landorus-Therian
Landorus-T is another major voltturn team staple, running intimidate to give it increased physical bulk. One of the few reliably rock setters in the volt turn list, Landorus-t can hang his hat on above average speed, massive attack, and added physical bulk. Investing specially defensive into Landorus-t, or even choosing to use an assault vest, helps make landorus-t an all-around monster. His attack needs no investment and has stab earthquake, stone edge and even access to knock off/smack down to allow landorus-t to pull off an assault vest without losing too much via support.
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So, thoughts? I've been testing this style out (still tweaking the team a bit) but this is an unbelievably good play style with more promise than any other stall type I've seen. It is limited in options, but the concept is so novel right now that there is hardly a 'mold' to follow. And the set choices themselves offer enough new variety that it is very hard to see the same team twice. This is mostly because mew, celebi, jirachi and a few other pokes with huge move pools have u-turn.
There have been a lot of stallish teams in the past which use slow VoltTurn to enable or aid a different damaging strategy (typically, hazard abuse), but teams based almost entirely around the strategy aren't optimal. If you can maintain offensive momentum consistently, then there is very little reason to run a defensive build; you lose out on damage done, while the added bulk goes mostly to waste. The only real use for the team's bulkiness is to tank attacks once it's lost momentum, but this doesn't seem anywhere near sufficiently important to justify the build. On top of that, I don't believe this is actually stall, just a very bulky form of offense.
I think it might be worth agreeing to a basic definition of stall. Stall, to me, is a team which primarily relies on indirect forms of damage to wear down an opponent, as opposed to offense which primarily relies on direct attacking, but I'd be interested to hear if others agree or have their own definitions.
I really see few match-ups were Assault Vest Lando-T would be a good idea. Perhaps Gengar, Espeon, Clefable, Thundurus, and Sylveon he would perform better?
Aegislash is now running Shadow Ball so that's a good idea.
He would do better to stay out of Ice Beams and Hydro Pumps altogether.
Well, with AV, he outbulks 135 SDef pokes (if hp was the same). I haven't had a chance to check through AV on him, so I'll change it back for now, but as an aegi counter it would probably be far more effective. I wouldn't be surprised that, if paired with jirachi w/wish, they'd be a fairy effective core.
On that list of things you can run on pivot stall, you should add Lanturn and Gliscor. Lanturn offers a lot of things such as Heal Bell and a hard Rotom-w counter. It also stomps on Talonflame and Tornadus(-T). It has a pretty decent niche, the only thing is it shouldn't be run if you have Rotom-W on the same team. It's definitely not outclassed, though. Gliscor is just a much bulkier version of Landorus-T. Poison Heal is kind of like Regenerator where you can get tons of recovery just by switching in off of a pivot. The team I've been using them on is more on the toxic stall side, but it attempts to maintain the same pressure (http://pastebin.com/f3utFvLi) as more offensive versions. The team's hit 161x on PO so that shows that the idea works on even more defensive versions of the team.
I love lanturn, tried to make a team with it this gen already (had one last gen) but it just hits like a piece of paper this gen. Gliscor may be worth mentioning, but I'm not sure it'd be a staple by any chance (nor would lanturn, but at least it could volt absorb rotom-w and not be threatened by the ensuing hydro pumps). Poison heal robs glisc or defog, and leaves is solely as a rock setter/roost user.
Uturn/protect/Rocks/EQ still would prevent you from pivoting into any threats with him, right... You're kind of at the mercy of no hidden power ice or mixed attack (I heard that SDef glisc is viable though).
(I like the foresight/HJK combo on Hitmontop... Gives it a bit of offensive pressure, I assume...)
There have been a lot of stallish teams in the past which use slow VoltTurn to enable or aid a different damaging strategy (typically, hazard abuse), but teams based almost entirely around the strategy aren't optimal. If you can maintain offensive momentum consistently, then there is very little reason to run a defensive build; you lose out on damage done, while the added bulk goes mostly to waste. The only real use for the team's bulkiness is to tank attacks once it's lost momentum, but this doesn't seem anywhere near sufficiently important to justify the build. On top of that, I don't believe this is actually stall, just a very bulky form of offense.
I think it might be worth agreeing to a basic definition of stall. Stall, to me, is a team which primarily relies on indirect forms of damage to wear down an opponent, as opposed to offense which primarily relies on direct attacking, but I'd be interested to hear if others agree or have their own definitions.
Aren't optimal? I don't think you're talking from experience here. You still want to run defensive builds to take hits when coming in, but every switch is now done with damage added and gives you switch initiative on almost all switches (the ones you KO on just allow you to put in a regenerator/leftover user and prepare to continue switching). This isn't a "Spam voltturn" game, you're still relying on the added utility moves in the other three slots, but you pressure pokemon out this way and can effectively prevent the opponent from attacking you. Every turn, you chip damage away from the opponent and steal a little bit of their ability to come back in the next time you come in with your pokemon. It is the same concept genesect has to use to get past walls like Heatran: It's going to spam Uturn or maybe Tbolt on occasion and eventually have heatran to where it can break it if you don't stop it first.
On your definition of stall, I posted this in your thread about this. Stall isn't "Indirect damage". If it was, you'd lose EVERY game where the other team ran heal bell or defog. You CAN'T rely on it, it isn't effective. Stall is the effective use of chip damage to wear an enemy down to the point his counters can no longer work effectively. How you achieve this is irrelevant. Bulky offense can rely on chip damage, I suppose, but from my limited knowledge, they aim for KOs.
Well, I've stolen Arthy's name for it, Momentum Stall, since a pivot is something that can switch in and apply pressure (generally suggesting tanking a hit). While pokemon on this team can do this, every pokemon on stall is more or less a pivot. Momentum Stall attempts to stop one of the most notorious philosophies to beating stall: Keep the pressure on. This style would attempt to rob them of this ability by constantly switching AFTER and being able to make a more educated switch.
The basic idea of how 'momentum stall' works, is that instead of spending one turn to switch to the appropriate counter of the pokemon out, you u-turn/volt switch/baton pass on them as they come in, giving you an extra free turn, which is extremely helpful.
The primary purpose of most pokemon on a stall team is to stay alive as long as possible. Because of this, there are two issues with Momentum Stall which need to be addressed.
There are not very many pokemon which have great bulk and defensive typing, reliable recovery, and which learn U-turn / Volt Switch.
Most pokemon on a stall team invest in defense, not offense. Is it worth using move slots on U-turn or Volt Switch when those moves are not going to be doing that much damage?
I'm not saying that Momentum Stall is unusable; I'm just wondering how you can use Momentum Stall without compromising the ability of your team to actually stall.
The primary point of uturn/Volt switch on a momentum stall team is NOT to inflict damage. The pivot comes after an opponent would make a switch and allows you to make the best choice to counter it, and gives no time for them to set up. This is the power of the style, and doesn't need to power through pokes when using these attacks.
In this context, Uturn and voltswitch ARE being used defensively. You're using them to ease prediction, to gain a switch initiative first and foremost. The damage it does is chip damage, part of stall's definition. While there are limited options (not really, but so you say), there is leniency in two/three spots on the team and many perfectly viable mons. Even when picking pokemon for a stall team, do you think that you have there is 720 pokemon to choose from? No, there really isn't. At most, we have 80 choices. Roughly a full tier, scattered throughout OU to RU (and the occasional NU). This is admittedly more than the volt turn cores that we can use, but probably only three times as much. But this is a subcategory of stall and less pokemon would fit this style, just as sand offense can't really use politoed.
The primary point of uturn/Volt switch on a momentum stall team is NOT to inflict damage. The pivot comes after an opponent would make a switch and allows you to make the best choice to counter it, and gives no time for them to set up. This is the power of the style, and doesn't need to power through pokes when using these attacks.
In this context, Uturn and voltswitch ARE being used defensively. You're using them to ease prediction, to gain a switch initiative first and foremost. The damage it does is chip damage, part of stall's definition.
But isn't this prediction as well? You're predicting them to switch out so that you grab the advantage, right? But if you have your check / counter to a Pokemon in against them, and they call your bluff and stay in, you're kinda giving them a free turn (seeing as U-Turns from the likes of Mandibuzz are definitely considered chip damage), plus another one if what you just switched out was your best counter... Clearly you don't just U-Turn and Volt Switch about blindly, but if you settle into a pattern, which is crazy easy to do in longer battles... I'm not much of a stall player, so maybe I'm missing something here, but as an offensive player if I see someone U-turning and Volt Switching around with low damage mons, I'd capitalize on it. It just seems like the prediction game would come into effect too often (if Aegislash switches and Mandibuzz U-Turns or Aegislash attacks and Mandibuzz stays in, you get the advantage. If Aegislash switches and Mandibuzz stays in or Aegislash stays in and Mandibuzz U-Turns, its my advantage) for this sort of strategy to become reliable.
No, the idea is that you would stay in if you had the best counter. This isn't eliminating all prediction, but it will eliminate both. Whether or not they change out is still up to you to decide, I can't present you an instant win here. But if they do switch, they'd have to go into something faster force you not just to turn again. There are some patterns, but you should be analyzing risk/reward: Do I have something to take a hit if they don't switch, can I do damage to their most likely switch if they do.
You EASE prediction. This is true to the style of volt turn in general. Yes, they can still outplay you. But anyone can get outplayed. It's harder to outplay this style, though, because of all the later switches.
Ajwf is completely right about volt-turn on defensive oriented teams. Yes there are many switches you can see coming from a mile away and therefore use to your advantage. This is ignoring the ability to double switch and for the opponent to switch to a pokemon that threatens the obvious counter to the obvious switch (higher caliber players will make these plays). This is where volt turn comes in handy. Damage is the least important part of this as said before. It's the speed at which the move happens in relation to your opponent's action that is so important.
I've found Mandibuzz to be a pretty great user of U-Turn. Sometimes I miss taunt/knock off, but Mandibuzz keeping the momentum on your side is not something that many players see coming, at least in my limited experience. I'm not sure how many viable users of volt-turn there are out there that don't have it as a staple move. Mandibuzz seems like one and I've found it to be a very solid move on her.
Obviously, Gardevoir's offensive prowess in its MEvo form has been discussed heavily in this thread already. However, I've found that Gardevoir is much more impressive running a defensive set. In its MEvo form, Garvdevoir is the second fastest Fairy-type outside of Whimsicott (which shouldn't be running a stall-y set anyways, annoyer is a lot better) which, when combined with its useful support movepool, means that it can pull out a lot of clutch moves where other fairies such as Aromatisse or Florges can't do. Another advantage of running Gardevoir as a defensive threat is that it has (one of the if not) the best offensive pressure out of any defensive Pokemon with its 165 Base SpA Hyper Voice even when it isn't running any investment. Finally, I'm sure that the defensive benefits that the Fairy-type have already been stated. It gives Gardevoir a 4x resistance to Fighting and an immunity to Dragon, two of the more threatening types in the tier, while also neutralizing its previous weaknesses to Dark and Bug.
The other Fairy-types in the tier have better defenses (although Florges only has higher HP and 20 more SpD), and can run Leftovers, which means that they can often take an extra hit if needed. However, the advantages that MEGArdevoir has over the them make it better IMO on teams that need a defensive MEvo or any team that needs Wish Support.
Here is the set that I've been using: (EVs for now are arbitrary, but I know it needs Def investment a lot more than SpD)
This was taken from the uu thread and it helped me realize that gardevoir can make a great stall poke with her good defenses typing and ability allows it to be a great cleric that provides offensive pressure and spreads status.
I guess it works kinda since hyper voice can break through subs so mega gardevoir is capable of always checking mega heracross, though having such an offensive niche with your cleric is generally a bad idea imo. Knowing that you're able to survive hits from certain mons (and with base 65 even fully invested it's not many that you're able to come in on and wish off the dmg, though of course it takes things better on the special side unfortunately all the things it can beat better are physical) will generally cause you to have to throw your cleric into many dangerous situations because it's offensive niche is so valuable in relation to winning the match. Such risky plays may work, but they will also often back-fire and with your wish passer gone it's all down-hill. Plus I think Garde would need to have heal bell over wow to be a true cleric. If anyone needs a bulky wish passer, cleric / dragon wall etc they mostly turn to clefable due to better bulk and defensive abilities.
