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Other Stall
- Thread starter ShootingStarmie
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He's a really good option for kyurem, mamoswine, lati@s, metagross, dragonite, some tyranitars, some sceptiles, diancie, other fairies like clefable, beedrill, and he can take a hit from stuff like greninja and landorus in a pinch. Not to mention any number of completely harmless stall mons like chanseys or whatever. He's not the walliest of walls but he's about as physically bulky as skarmory and has valuable spdef bulk to boot (especially if you invest in it), in combination with truly useful and threatening offensive ability. You're right that he needs to be babysat a little bit if he gets scalded or willowisped but I don't think that detracts from him as a great bulky win condition.
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56k One very cool thing M-Sableye has over M-Slowbro is Magic Bounce, which helps with hazards control, arguably one of the most important things on stall teams.
M-Sableye's bulk is actually very nice. With max defense you get 383 defense; include the burn and there aren't many physical attackers that can break it. Slowbro's base bulk is of course better (Sableye's 4 SpD is a little higher than Slowbro's 240 SpD, Slowbro got more HP though) but because of Magic Bounce it is far harder to wear down, as Slowbro either has to run Rest to get rid of toxic or other teammates need to get rid of toxic users. Add an immunity to taunt, phazing and a better typing and that makes M-Sableye a better option on stall than M-Slowbro in my opinion.
M-Sableye's bulk is actually very nice. With max defense you get 383 defense; include the burn and there aren't many physical attackers that can break it. Slowbro's base bulk is of course better (Sableye's 4 SpD is a little higher than Slowbro's 240 SpD, Slowbro got more HP though) but because of Magic Bounce it is far harder to wear down, as Slowbro either has to run Rest to get rid of toxic or other teammates need to get rid of toxic users. Add an immunity to taunt, phazing and a better typing and that makes M-Sableye a better option on stall than M-Slowbro in my opinion.
I agree it isn't the best way to control hazards, but at least it discourages the opponent to just spam Stealth Rock or Spikes. Sableye doesn't even need to switch in all the time to get the hazard control, and even if the opponent predicts this and goes for the rocks, you can simply spin or defog them away.
I have to disagree with this a little. Defensive M-Scizor is the best Defogger in the game, period.
I think the non-ORAS megas that are still relevant to stall are M-Scizor and M-Venusaur. Even though the latter's fallen out of favour in the ladder lately, it's still an amazing Pokemon.
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While I agree it is good, it looses to one of the most common rock setters (if not the most common) namely heatran. As a defensive defogger, he gets competition from Zapdos (and maybe skarm) and as offensive defoggers go, lati@s carry much less oportunity cost.
Just as Zapdos and Lati@s both lose to Tyranitar. To be clear, M-Scizor is a defensive Defogger (I'm talking about the 252+ Defense set) and is better than almost any other defensive Defogger simply because of its ridiculous typing, high defense, and not losing 25% to SR every switch-in. No, it can't sit in Heatran's face and Defog every turn as the SR comes up. But I guarantee it'll get opportunities against the rest of the opponent's team while also checking stuff with Bullet Punch and providing a slow U-turn into whatever you need.
What I meant is that the cost of a whole moveslot for megascizor for defog is very very high compared to a pokemon like latias or zapdos, who have some pretty decent speed and hit hard with STABs alone. I think if you add scizor onto a stall team you should pair up with a completely separate defog/spinner because you really really want to have that late game offensive ability with it. Even stall teams need some kind of offensive options, sometimes for opposing stall teams that can't be broken without some kind of boost. Maybe this blurs the lines between stall vs bulky offense (it's a really really vague grey area anyway) but I think it's better to take advantage of scizors main assets and pair it up with sometime along the lines of a zapdos or tentacruel to handle the hazards. It's interesting that scizor resists the ice weakness that most defoggers have, and tentacruel resists the fire weakness that scizor has.
I think Mega-Altaria is very good with stall at the moment, I also think Gourgeist and Bronzong are very well positioned. I wish that Greninja wasn't so restricting and that we had more options for hazard control, breaking down dedicated spikes-stacking teams with Mega-Sableye can be particularly difficult. Here's my RMT with Mega-Altaria: Harvest Season
I think Mega-Altaria/Gourgeist is a very good core, it handles almost every physical attacker pretty comfortably outside of Bisharp, Mamoswine and Weavile depending on your sets. Adding on a bulky water completes it pretty nicely. AJ took the Altaria/bulky grass idea a different way with Chesnaught, which opens you up to Metagross and Azumarill, so the choice of Alomomola as your bulky water is pretty important. I like Will-O-Wisp from Gourgeist better than Chesnaught's Spikes, however.
It's tough for me to evaluate the best mega since I haven't gotten good teams for each. I really haven't even seen many attempts at Mega-Slowbro stall though, are there RMTs or replays to check out? Mega-Sableye was disappointing when I tried it out, but I didn't use it for very long.
I think Mega-Altaria/Gourgeist is a very good core, it handles almost every physical attacker pretty comfortably outside of Bisharp, Mamoswine and Weavile depending on your sets. Adding on a bulky water completes it pretty nicely. AJ took the Altaria/bulky grass idea a different way with Chesnaught, which opens you up to Metagross and Azumarill, so the choice of Alomomola as your bulky water is pretty important. I like Will-O-Wisp from Gourgeist better than Chesnaught's Spikes, however.
It's tough for me to evaluate the best mega since I haven't gotten good teams for each. I really haven't even seen many attempts at Mega-Slowbro stall though, are there RMTs or replays to check out? Mega-Sableye was disappointing when I tried it out, but I didn't use it for very long.
I use bronzong as well on ou as my set up, i usually pack hp ice on it since he has levitate which 2hko's most gliscors without any investment on sp. atk. But the problem being specs magnezone which locks me in with magnet pull and hp fires me to death since my hp ice or toxic cant hit it and most landoruses with 4x weaknesse to ice like gliscor pack u-turn which doesnt go according to plan.
In nearly all cases, it is better to mega evolve sableye immediately. While the two abilities are uniquely helpful for different cases, there really isn't a moveset mega and base share. This is probably due to base form having prankster, making taunt one of its best moves. However, mega prefers calm mind, something the base form can't pull off at all. Remember that Gyara also had vastly different counters due to the typing change, something Sableye can't claim.
Slowbro on the other hand can definitely wait, and should wait, to mega evolve. By holding off to mid/late game, you keep regenerator and ease the stress on recovering bro. Only when the opponent starts to push a setup sweeper that bro counters should you mega evolve. It is incredibly nice because bro's base and mega do run similar sets on stall.
Slowbro on the other hand can definitely wait, and should wait, to mega evolve. By holding off to mid/late game, you keep regenerator and ease the stress on recovering bro. Only when the opponent starts to push a setup sweeper that bro counters should you mega evolve. It is incredibly nice because bro's base and mega do run similar sets on stall.
I've noticed that your slowbro teams always opt for full spdef investment and I was wondering if you'd like to expand on the other options out there. For example full phys investment can make switching in un-mega'd a lot less of a hassle, and it also helps to absorb dark attacks from the likes of bisharp and such, not to mention all the potentially adamant attackers out there like perhaps dragonite or mamoswine or metagross - in short I think there are clear advantages to full phys and full spdef but I have never used spdef slowbro and I would like to hear more about it. There are even options with sp.atk investment if you want to run something like fireblast.
One huge thing is keldeo 2hkos with specs hydro pump after rocks if you aren't spdef. Mamoswine's freeze dry 2hko's physically defensive bro. You absorb Latios' LO D-metoer for about 70% max with SpD. Otherwise, it can almost OHKO. Note that all these calcs hold true for base or mega, so you become a mixed pivot easily.
Bro's Spdef just makes him good vs mixed attackers. And let's be honest, 180 defense needs no help. It's a similar concept with aggron-mega.
Bro's Spdef just makes him good vs mixed attackers. And let's be honest, 180 defense needs no help. It's a similar concept with aggron-mega.
I personally like running a spread of 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD with a Bold nature on Mega Slowbro. That gives you just enough special bulk to always escape 2HKOs from Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump after Stealth Rock and Life Orb Mamoswine's Freeze Dry from full health, and the extremely high physical bulk is pretty important from time to time, especially since you no longer have Regenerator to make up for any lacking in that department. For example, the given physical bulk is exactly enough to ensure that Mega Gallade's +2 Knock Off will never 2HKO without prior damage, which gives you a better chance to fish for Scald burns in a pinch. Another example is avoiding the 2HKO from +2 Garchomp's Earthquake (Outrage still 2HKOs, but a Garchomp locked into Outrage is a free switch for several other things). So yeah, that's the spread I go to if I really need a ton of physical bulk on Mega Slowbro. You only lose ~4% of the bulk that you would have with 252 Def EVs, and being able to more safely take on stuff like Keldeo and Freeze Dry Mamoswine is a nice bonus.
I honestly do not see the reason to take M-Sabeleye. I really enjoy using regular ol' Sabeleye on my teams and I am glad that he got a mega evolution, but there is just too much of a disconnect between their roles. The main thing that contributes to Sabeleye's bulk is the fact that it has Prankster WoW and Sub. The fact that M-Sabeleye is slow and loses access to Leftovers makes it rather lackluster for me. If you want a Magic Bounce pokemon that is tougher than Espeon why not go for M-Diancie?
Mega Diancie has less bulk, no Recover, no Will-O-Wisp, no ability to spinblock, and far more weaknesses. I honestly can't fathom why anyone would want to use Mega Diancie on stall, much less over Mega Sableye.
I see the disconnect between Sableye's roles as a huge positive for a couple of reasons.
Prankster is a great ability for any poke, especially one with WoW, allowing base form Eye to cripple physical attackers, even if they've already boosted (sans T-Flame and Zard-X, natch). This creates pressure on your opponent to use special attackers, which is great because the Sableye user can then either M-Evo while CMing up, or switch to a special wall or even a specially bulky hazard setter/status spreader.
Like with Gyarados, a user of Sableye has the choice of timing its M-Evo. Unlike Gyara, whose main differences post M-Evo are typing and power, Sableye gains bulk and an ability that prevents hazards and direct status, transforming Eye from an annoying stop to physical sweepers to a rather bulky setup mon/wincon that cannot be phazed bar Dragon Tail. This allows Eye to function pretty well against hazard-heavy Stall teams. The timing of the M-Evo is especially important as it gives the user a turn to use both Prankster and Magic Bounce, two of the best abilities in the game.
M-Diancie is great on Offense but pretty bad for Stall. Its bulk is not impressive and it has weaknesses to Ground, Water, Grass, and Steel, two of which are extremely common.
Not to mention a typing that exposes it to so many more Pokemon with weaknesses in Ground and Water in exchange for the fairly predictable Fairy attack type.
If Diancie had recovery, you'd never see Sableye being used. I mean, Sableye doesn't take ground or water (esp scald and azumarill) well. Diancie does have decent bulks, but just lacks HP without any investment (The bulk is still the same as Rotom-wash). It's just really... Stall doesn't need that.
I guess Sableye might still get used because he can also spin-block, but heh mold breaker excadrill has started to pop up using rocks. It's a cute way to take care of teams like the one Yuttt has which is taking on too many rock weaknesses [come on man, Moltres and Salamence aren't that good :( ].
Oooh btw I'm going to start working on a sand stall team with Steelix. There's 230 Defense, 95 Special defense, and 85 HP... that's far too good to pass up. I want to work in a double wish core with alomomola and one other (MG clefable was the initial thought, running Knock off, wish and some attack moves... I don't see the need for unaware). Since ground would be redundant, I think I'm going to go with some variant of TTar to trap or go mixed. Lastly, Gastrodon to catch water has been my initial pick since it also screws with R-wash. However, I think I might be able to do better than that. It's pretty defensive, but I just need to work out the basics of sacrificing a spot for a sand setter so early on. TTar is not a mon I appreciate for stalling all that much, so I might go offensive.
I guess Sableye might still get used because he can also spin-block, but heh mold breaker excadrill has started to pop up using rocks. It's a cute way to take care of teams like the one Yuttt has which is taking on too many rock weaknesses [come on man, Moltres and Salamence aren't that good :( ].
Oooh btw I'm going to start working on a sand stall team with Steelix. There's 230 Defense, 95 Special defense, and 85 HP... that's far too good to pass up. I want to work in a double wish core with alomomola and one other (MG clefable was the initial thought, running Knock off, wish and some attack moves... I don't see the need for unaware). Since ground would be redundant, I think I'm going to go with some variant of TTar to trap or go mixed. Lastly, Gastrodon to catch water has been my initial pick since it also screws with R-wash. However, I think I might be able to do better than that. It's pretty defensive, but I just need to work out the basics of sacrificing a spot for a sand setter so early on. TTar is not a mon I appreciate for stalling all that much, so I might go offensive.
So MegaAltaria has been brought up as a pokemon that can counter both charizard forms (oh how I hate them) but what would such a set even look like? Dual STABs and roost and toxic? But where should the bulk investment go, not to mention little bits of speed creep? I figure you want to have a set that has the right bulk distribution to not only beat charizards but also wall the other stuff out there. Avoiding ice beam and gunk shot 1hko from greninja would be awfully nice as well lol. With that in mind this is what I came up with (and it's by no means anything great... it was just the best I could do... looking for suggestions here lol)
Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Def / 200 SpD
Impish/Bold Nature
- Roost
- Toxic
- Body Slam/Hyper Voice
- Earthquake/Flamethrower
Altaria hilariously has nothing in its movepool to actually hit charizard-y so I just figure toxic is the only answer. Unless you want to try your luck boosting with some dragon dance set. But the problem is sacrificing any amount of bulk into speed so you actually outspeed base 110s after a single boost almost neutralizes your abilitity to take hits from the charizards in the first place. Furthermore you have to decide to go physical or special, and decide if you'd rather be walled by heatran or ferrothron.
Final note: EVs and nature just barely avoids 1hko from greninja after rocks (but only if you're already mega'd somehow... if you take 25% rocks then it's impossible to survive greninja)
After using it all I have to say is a resounding "meh..." It's just seemingly not bulky enough
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Altaria: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.2%)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mega Altaria: 114-134 (32.2 - 37.9%)
You're cutting it awfully close with those numbers, especially when you don't know if you'll be mega'd or unmega'd and taking 12% or 25% from rocks. A single burn hax or crit or flinch or any prior status and you're done.
But the thing is, I was wondering if there are other pokemon that can actually counter both zards
Altaria has been completely unjustifiably hyped up, seriously mew is bulkier than altaria. It'd be nice to not spend a mega slot on it, and I don't actually like altaria very much to begin with. Typing aside, 75/110/105 is just not bulky at all against neutral hits.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mega Altaria: 134-160 (37.9 - 45.3%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock :(
I'm definitely willing to dip down all the way to NU RU pokemons if it means it can actually wall both zards.
Obviously it's fine and nice to just have 2 separate pokemon that can wall either form (but not both) but I think we all share the same feeling of dread when a balanced team is carrying one and you really have no idea what to switch into it the first time.
Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Def / 200 SpD
Impish/Bold Nature
- Roost
- Toxic
- Body Slam/Hyper Voice
- Earthquake/Flamethrower
Altaria hilariously has nothing in its movepool to actually hit charizard-y so I just figure toxic is the only answer. Unless you want to try your luck boosting with some dragon dance set. But the problem is sacrificing any amount of bulk into speed so you actually outspeed base 110s after a single boost almost neutralizes your abilitity to take hits from the charizards in the first place. Furthermore you have to decide to go physical or special, and decide if you'd rather be walled by heatran or ferrothron.
Final note: EVs and nature just barely avoids 1hko from greninja after rocks (but only if you're already mega'd somehow... if you take 25% rocks then it's impossible to survive greninja)
After using it all I have to say is a resounding "meh..." It's just seemingly not bulky enough
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Altaria: 114-135 (32.2 - 38.2%)
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 200 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%)
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mega Altaria: 114-134 (32.2 - 37.9%)
You're cutting it awfully close with those numbers, especially when you don't know if you'll be mega'd or unmega'd and taking 12% or 25% from rocks. A single burn hax or crit or flinch or any prior status and you're done.
But the thing is, I was wondering if there are other pokemon that can actually counter both zards
Altaria has been completely unjustifiably hyped up, seriously mew is bulkier than altaria. It'd be nice to not spend a mega slot on it, and I don't actually like altaria very much to begin with. Typing aside, 75/110/105 is just not bulky at all against neutral hits.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mega Altaria: 134-160 (37.9 - 45.3%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock :(
I'm definitely willing to dip down all the way to NU RU pokemons if it means it can actually wall both zards.
Obviously it's fine and nice to just have 2 separate pokemon that can wall either form (but not both) but I think we all share the same feeling of dread when a balanced team is carrying one and you really have no idea what to switch into it the first time.
Resisting fire and dragon (mandatory to hope walling charX) and being at least neutral to ground (EQ), fighting (focus blast) and grass (solar beam) while having very good mixed bulk is almost impossible, Mega Altaria is the only one to have the typing.
Sap sipper Azu fits the bill somewhat but it has very slightly worse bulk than mega Altaria. Assault vest should be the best item but it makes him useless (no toxic although you still have your weak ass scald), at least with leftovers you have toxic. Since no reliable recovery, this feels far fetched.
The set would be scald/toxic/protect/knock off or rain dance. Rain Dance forces the switch on charY. Knock off has much more overall utility.
Some calcs:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Azumarill in Rain: 57-67 (14.1 - 16.5%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Azumarill: 83-98 (20.5 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Azumarill: 128-151 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 86.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Azumarill: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 23% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Weirdly enough if you come in on a DD and he keeps using flarebitz you can win by milking toxic damage and recoil.
Honestly, this doesn't look reliable at all.
Mega aero looks promising as an offensive answer since it could tank one hit, outspeed and OHKO. It is destroyed by dragon claw though :(.
Sap sipper Azu fits the bill somewhat but it has very slightly worse bulk than mega Altaria. Assault vest should be the best item but it makes him useless (no toxic although you still have your weak ass scald), at least with leftovers you have toxic. Since no reliable recovery, this feels far fetched.
The set would be scald/toxic/protect/knock off or rain dance. Rain Dance forces the switch on charY. Knock off has much more overall utility.
Some calcs:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 34.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Azumarill in Rain: 57-67 (14.1 - 16.5%) -- possible 7HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 80 SpD Azumarill: 83-98 (20.5 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Azumarill: 128-151 (31.6 - 37.3%) -- 86.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 176+ Def Azumarill: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 23% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Weirdly enough if you come in on a DD and he keeps using flarebitz you can win by milking toxic damage and recoil.
Honestly, this doesn't look reliable at all.
Mega aero looks promising as an offensive answer since it could tank one hit, outspeed and OHKO. It is destroyed by dragon claw though :(.
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Altaria @ Altarite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 32 Atk / 216 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Return / Facade
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
This is the optimized set to check both Zards fairly solid. You need more defense if you are switching in on the Dragon Dance, and you don't need as much SDef to check Char-Y.
Calcs:
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Mega Altaria: 148-175 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Mega Altaria: 124-147 (35 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
32 Atk Mega Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 176-210 (52.8 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You win as long an you switch in on the Dragon Dance.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Altaria in Sun: 149-176 (42 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Altaria: 99-117 (27.9 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Mega Altaria: 135-160 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
32 Atk Mega Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 118-139 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 32 Atk Mega Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 177-208 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is what I've come up as far as checking Zards. For Char-Y, you basically want to Roost stall the Sun turns and then you win easily. You don't really need to prepare for Air Slash, it's not really run much at all anymore tbh. You want more physical bulk to take on DD Zard-X at +1. The spread only works with Rocks off the field, but that's the best you are going to find most likely.
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