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Other Stall

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Alomomola does alright against Taunt Heatran. Regenerator gives you recovery even when Taunted, and you can chip away or threaten Scald burns on whatever switches in. I usually pivot between that and Chansey or MSableye (to catch a Taunt and bounce it back) and it hasn't been a huge problem.
 
I'm starting to think that it's necessary to have one or two Pokemon on stall teams that can punch holes in the opponent when necessary. Although that starts to lean more toward balance and bulky offense than stall, Gothitelle is ridiculously frustrating for most of the 'mons on a stall team and having something that can spam a strong move when Scarfed is so useful. I've been using RestTalk Tyranitar (Stone Edge / Crunch / Rest / Sleep Talk) alongside SpDef Mega Venusaur, Reflect Type Starmie, SpDef Heatran, Unaware Clefable, and Gliscor, and so far I've been doing okay. Tyranitar is pretty bulky (100/110/100 + boosted SpDef in sand), and the sand really helps with extra chip. Kinda feels like I'm playing sand stall again ^.^
 
How necessary is Shed Shell on Ferro/Skarm still? I honestly haven't seen many Mags running around as much as early ORAS/late XY, and having another item is sometimes really helpful. I mean i guess you could still escape goth but, what do u guys think?
 
Questro said:
How necessary is Shed Shell on Ferro/Skarm still? I honestly haven't seen many Mags running around as much as early ORAS/late XY, and having another item is sometimes really helpful. I mean i guess you could still escape goth but, what do u guys think?
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Magnezone is definitely still viable; I'm using one on "TestingDownwards" Showdown alt to test out the OU metagame. It's a good complement to Flying types. The issue with Shed Shell tends to be opportunity cost, as you lose out on either Leftovers recovery or Rocky Helmet damage. If you don't see many trappers personally, you may win more battles in the long run with whatever other item you were using.
 
Questro said:
How necessary is Shed Shell on Ferro/Skarm still? I honestly haven't seen many Mags running around as much as early ORAS/late XY, and having another item is sometimes really helpful. I mean i guess you could still escape goth but, what do u guys think?
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Imo its personal choice. Goth+magton/zone add up to about 9.5% usage in total ladder. In upper they are more common at 14.5 usage. Honestly its personal choice. Most trappers are paired with things like knock off lando so your shell doesn't matter much anyways. Also not every trapper is paired with something to take adv of a missing skarm.

Imo upper ladder shed shell much more important, but lower less important.
 
To revive this topic: Past few days I've seen much less stall on the ladder because many teams are very prepared for it (LO Gengar, Talonflame, Clefable)
One pokemon that worked pretty well for me is Gliscor

472.gif

Both SpDef and PDef are great but especially SpDef does wonders for me. Gliscor beats stuff like Stallbreaker Talonflame, LO Gengar, Clefable (if taunt) and Landorus-I with the right set. Set I enjoyed most is Roost / Earthquake / Taunt / Knock Off, but stuff like Toxic, U-Turn and Stealth Rock also work. Against stall it is defeated by Mega Sableye, but if that thing gets out of the way (or if the opponent just doesn't run mega sableye because stall still has many nice mega's) Gliscor can be very hard to take down and often wins you the game versus stall.
 
SketchUp said:
To revive this topic: Past few days I've seen much less stall on the ladder because many teams are very prepared for it (LO Gengar, Talonflame, Clefable)
One pokemon that worked pretty well for me is Gliscor

472.gif

Both SpDef and PDef are great but especially SpDef does wonders for me. Gliscor beats stuff like Stallbreaker Talonflame, LO Gengar, Clefable (if taunt) and Landorus-I with the right set. Set I enjoyed most is Roost / Earthquake / Taunt / Knock Off, but stuff like Toxic, U-Turn and Stealth Rock also work. Against stall it is defeated by Mega Sableye, but if that thing gets out of the way (or if the opponent just doesn't run mega sableye because stall still has many nice mega's) Gliscor can be very hard to take down and often wins you the game versus stall.
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I've been considering breeding a Sp D one of these in game for these reasons, actually.

Versus Mega Sableye though most stall teams should have another answer anyways like Unaware Sp D Clefable for example, which helps vs Manaphy (imo one of the most potent stall/wall breakers at the moment).
 
Dropping Roost for Swords Dance in that set lets Gliscor beat Mega-Eye one on one (provided you get Toxic Orb to activate before taking a Knock Off or Wisp) and vastly improves your matchup versus stall in general. It also gives you a nice win condition for your team if you're using it on a stall team yourself.
 
Hogg said:
Dropping Roost for Swords Dance in that set lets Gliscor beat Mega-Eye one on one (provided you get Toxic Orb to activate before taking a Knock Off or Wisp) and vastly improves your matchup versus stall in general. It also gives you a nice win condition for your team if you're using it on a stall team yourself.
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I strongly feel roost to be the wrong move to drop. Reliable recovery is essential for SD Gliscor.
A set of SD roost then two of taunt, EQ Knock off, acrobatics, and facade. is much more effective. (Just don't do taunt Eq as that set is easily walled)
 
Lil YoshiXD said:
I strongly feel roost to be the wrong move to drop. Reliable recovery is essential for SD Gliscor.
A set of SD roost then two of taunt, EQ Knock off, acrobatics, and facade. is much more effective. (Just don't do taunt Eq as that set is easily walled)
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Yeah, roost sd gliscor is pretty good in this meta. It really shines against balance and stall where its not too pressured, sets up in the face of common mons and makes best use of its amazing passive healing.
 
Just dropping in here to post a link from an article in The Smog about Sableye Stall, which is a very good approach on ''How to build with Mega Sableye.'' The topic can be found here
 
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Trying to learn stall and have been thinking about win conditions.What is a stall team's win condition? I'd assume it's just removing the opposing teams win con or keeping a specific mon alive. Is this correct?
 
Jeronado said:
Trying to learn stall and have been thinking about win conditions.What is a stall team's win condition? I'd assume it's just removing the opposing teams win con or keeping a specific mon alive. Is this correct?
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Generally, stall wins games through slowly wearing down the biggest threat so your defensive core can deal with the rest of the team witch little worry.

Another wincon stall has in the current meta is CM M-Sabeleye. It can W-o-W physical attackers and set up calm minds until you can sweep with dark pulse or shadow ball if you would prefer to have the rest of your team deal with normal types. Use recover when nessisary.
 
CM Sable is certainly a win con you CAN run, but I actually think its best set is the basic utility set of WoW|Recover|Knock Off|Foul Play/Metal Burst. Yes, it's more passive, but it carries so much weight against every team.
 
M-Sableye by virtue of what it is just walls so much that if you remove its basic checks and counters you've basically won from there. Like stated above consider stall's win conditions its defensive set up sweepers like CM Clefable for example, secondary stall-breakers, or to the point they'll never break your defensive core down. Stall doesn't necessarily have the most obvious win conditions like say offensive teams have but they're there and you can usually tell soon as the matches goes on.
 
For a traditional wincon you can pair up 5 stall pokemons with:

CMers like slowbro, suicune, clefable, gothitelle, sableye, latias, blissey
DDers like charizard, gyarados, dragonite, altaria, ttar, zygarde
BUers like talonflame, breloom, mew
SDers like gliscor, talonflame, mew, scizor, skarmory, scolipede
Cursers like ferrothorn, snorlax, quagsire
Fast cleaners like tornadus-t, scizor, talonflame, gengar, serperior
Semistall with metagross, lopunny, diancie, (or any other good mega)

Some of them are obviously much more viable than others but it never hurts to experiment and have fun with some new crazy idea. Who knows maybe something as outlandish as curse miltank could work if you really wanted to. Anyway they all share the common stall traits of bulk, recovery, and most of them have some way of assisting in the stall archetype such as hazard control, statuses, heal bells, and useful abilities.

After choosing one I try to start outlining my weaknesses to common wallbreakers and try to build around patching up the obvious holes while still maintaining some of the stall basics like hazards and a cleric. It has become quite a task lately to wall all of the ridiculous things out there so having some sort of offensive pressure, or some speed/priority of your own, can be very nice.
 
Okay, first of all, I have to thank AM for this. I'm not entirely sure why this hasn't been brought up, but it's excellent, nonetheless.

SpDef M-Gardevoir.

So far the set I've been using (I'm sure it could be optimized, but w/e) is this…


282-mega.gif

Gardevoir @Gardevoirite
Calm Nature
EVs: 248 HP/252 SpDef/8 SpA
-Wish
-Protect
-Will-o-Wisp
-Hyper Voice

This thing is so beautiful, especially against all the M-Sableyes running amok in the tier. People get so wrapped up in that base 165 SpA that they forget the 135 SpDef it has. This thing has a LOT of special bulk. I've only loosely built a team around it, but it's put in work in the 2 games I've played, so I suspect that won't really change much. It fits perfectly on teams with Heatran, seeing as Heatran quad resists Steel, is immune to Poison, and can tank pretty much any Ghost move in the tier. WoW is great for surprising Scizors/Bisharps that think they can counter/check you. I guess you could slash Heal bell over WoW, but I like punishing things permanently. WishTect for recovery/team support. Hyper Voice murders souls. Even with the EV spread above, you still hit a staggering 368 SpA. That means you can still hit like a truck.

I'll edit in replays when I ladder up to a respectable spot, but this thing looks like it'll be an awesome addition to our repertoire.
 
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Sun King said:
Okay, first of all, I have to thank AM for this. I'm not entirely sure why this hasn't been brought up, but it's excellent, nonetheless.

SpDef M-Gardevoir.

So far the set I've been using (I'm sure it could be optimized, but w/e) is this…


282-mega.gif

Gardevoir @Gardevoirite
Calm Nature
EVs: 248 HP/252 SpDef/8 SpA
-Wish
-Protect
-Will-o-Wisp
-Hyper Voice

This thing is so beautiful, especially against all the M-Sableyes running amok in the tier. I've only loosely built a team around it, but it's put in work in the 2 games I've played, so I suspect that won't really change much. It fits perfectly on teams with Heatran, seeing as Heatran quad resists Steel, is immune to Poison, and can tank pretty much any Ghost move in the tier. WoW is great for surprising Scizors/Bisharps that think they can counter/check you. I guess you could slash Heal bell over WoW, but I like punishing things permanently. WishTect for recovery/team support. Hyper Voice murders souls. Even with the EV spread above, you still hit a staggering 368 SpA. That means you can still hit like a truck.

I'll edit in replays when I ladder up to a respectable spot, but this thing looks like it'll be an awesome addition to our repertoire.
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I usually run enough speed to outrun jolly bisharp which is 108 speed. You lose a bit of bulk but I think it's important to get the jump on base 70s and below. I'll see if I can't get replays later as well to showcase it a bit.
 
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Sun King said:
Okay, first of all, I have to thank AM for this. I'm not entirely sure why this hasn't been brought up, but it's excellent, nonetheless.

SpDef M-Gardevoir.

So far the set I've been using (I'm sure it could be optimized, but w/e) is this…


282-mega.gif

Gardevoir @Gardevoirite
Calm Nature
EVs: 248 HP/252 SpDef/8 SpA
-Wish
-Protect
-Will-o-Wisp
-Hyper Voice

This thing is so beautiful, especially against all the M-Sableyes running amok in the tier. People get so wrapped up in that base 165 SpA that they forget the 135 SpDef it has. This thing has a LOT of special bulk. I've only loosely built a team around it, but it's put in work in the 2 games I've played, so I suspect that won't really change much. It fits perfectly on teams with Heatran, seeing as Heatran quad resists Steel, is immune to Poison, and can tank pretty much any Ghost move in the tier. WoW is great for surprising Scizors/Bisharps that think they can counter/check you. I guess you could slash Heal bell over WoW, but I like punishing things permanently. WishTect for recovery/team support. Hyper Voice murders souls. Even with the EV spread above, you still hit a staggering 368 SpA. That means you can still hit like a truck.

I'll edit in replays when I ladder up to a respectable spot, but this thing looks like it'll be an awesome addition to our repertoire.
Click to expand...

My only concern would be..what notable pokemon does this garde take on that i cant find on other, even non-megas poke? Without physical defense investment it's not taking on a lot of the wallbreaking fighting pokes besides maybe Keldeo who can easily take advantage of wish turns by burning.

I want a fairy who takes on MHera, Mgallade, Kyurem-B, etc but even with def investment garde is a shaky check at best. No lefties means status and passive damage can wear it down fast as any other defensive mega.

Is it supposed to be a blanket special check? It can't even take on Lando-I or Char-Y..:/

Not that Im discrediting the creativity here but wats it supposed to wall/do that other pokes cant? I guess spreading burns is neat but meh :/ even its wishes arent that big

Maybe im just missing something big here and sorry in advance for not seeing what u see.
 
Questro said:
My only concern would be..what notable pokemon does this garde take on that i cant find on other, even non-megas poke? Without physical defense investment it's not taking on a lot of the wallbreaking fighting pokes besides maybe Keldeo who can easily take advantage of wish turns by burning.

I want a fairy who takes on MHera, Mgallade, Kyurem-B, etc but even with def investment garde is a shaky check at best. No lefties means status and passive damage can wear it down fast as any other defensive mega.

Is it supposed to be a blanket special check? It can't even take on Lando-I or Char-Y..:/

Not that Im discrediting the creativity here but wats it supposed to wall/do that other pokes cant? I guess spreading burns is neat but meh :/ even its wishes arent that big

Maybe im just missing something big here and sorry in advance for not seeing what u see.
Click to expand...
Off the top of my head, SubCM Keldeo, Mega-Sableye are huge ones. It actually does check Lando-I if rocks are down (Sludge Wave does 56-66%). The set works really well because people don't expect it, so when you WoW their M-Garde answer (not named Heatran), half the times they rage quit. The other half, you've crippled one of their key Pokemon. It works well as a specially defensive tank. Like I said, it still hits REALLY hard. I find it puts in a lot of work against Volt-Turn teams because once you burn the Scizor, it's not a threat to your team anymore.
 
Using AM's 108 speed spread and looking at the S/A+/A/A- ranked mons, SpDef Gardevoir:

Counters:
Sableye
Latios
Latias
Thundurus-T
Celebi
Manetric
Rotom-W
Slowbro
Politoed
Starmie

Checks:
Keldeo
Bisharp
Altaria (somewhat: it depends on speed and atk investment)
Diancie (somewhat: neither ohko each other)
Gliscor (somewhat: SpDef gliscor wins if the toxic orb already activated)
Gyarados
Landorus-I (somewhat: hypervoice can ohko after rocks)
Tyranitar
Heracross
Hippowdon



It's a decent list, I haven't tried it myself, but having that package of power, fast willo, and middling speed could be attractive for certain types of stall teams. It seems like it really hurts not having leftovers during your wish protect turns for that extra 12%.
 
I've seen a defensive excadrill set been used in a lot of highly-rated OU battles. Why is this set not included in the viability rankings and excadrill's options in the smogdex? It's a possible diancie switch-in even.
 
Specially Defensive Excadrill is not actually that good, more of a last resort Pokemon for stall teams that want both Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin in one Pokemon and want something to annoy Sableye with (mold breaker toxic). The typing is cool and it has decent bulk because of its HP but I doubt it will ever get a main set in the smogdex. A strong mention in other options at most.

252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Excadrill: 216-256 (51 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not really a switch-in but it can possibly check it as long as it's at good health.
 
Such an excadrill set is posted in the victory road underrated sets thread. Imo there's lots of theorymonning to do before settling on a moveset and EV spread. For example don't you want to outspeed a few things like bisharp and heatran? And why stop at timidtran (base 77) when the base 80s (unevolved gardevoir) are just a few points higher. But at that point you're sacrificing critical bulk and it's hard to say just how defensive it actually ends up being. For example, you can't survive focus blast from gengar unless you have Calm nature. But you can't outspeed the 70s-80s without jolly nature.
 
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