Stalling thread.

[COalex]

1. Bronzong is, for lack of a better word, one of the top 20 worst pokemon of all time for appearance. That being said, it is a shitwrecker of a staller, especially with some trick roomage.

2. Stalling MUST be dead, mostly. As has been said, over and over on the forums, This generation is more offensive than ever. No team can cover everything well enough to be prepared for everything. How can you defend when there's always or almost always counter? Hell, even if you have a great team set up for the stall, lose one link in the chain and your defensive liabilities, apparently, start to pile up.

1. =) Go Bronzong!

2. I disagree with you; stall teams generally feast on the bones of overly offensive attackers*. Of course, stall teams definitely won't look the same as they did in GSC, hell, they'll probably become more offensive too. It leads me to wonder if a modified TSS team could be the best kind of stall this generation. Sandstorm is certainly an asset against Choice users and Ground/Rock/Steel types are remarkably good at walling all the common attack types.

*That being said, I think that Infernape is one of the biggest threats to stall in D/P due to his versatile STABs hitting almost everything Super Effective. Go figure.

EDIT: Big Bayou, most stall teams carry a Wisher.

 

[Zacharian]

Well, my opinion is that stalling has lessened in popularity and usefulness, but is not gone. Let's look at history for a sec here. Let's say GSC = WW1, DP = WW2. In WW1, stalling was best due to not as useful offensive tech and doctrines and speed (even the Sliefmann plan failed due to low speed). Defensive tech was simply better than offensive. However, this all changes with WW2. Super fast weaponry (early rockets, tanks, blitzkrieg doctrine, and airplanes) with huge attacking power destroyed common defenses, or simply bypassed them. However, defense wasn't gone, it was just smaller, and NOT the trenches of WW1.

 

[adman2]

Well, my opinion is that stalling has lessened in popularity and usefulness, but is not gone. Let's look at history for a sec here. Let's say GSC = WW1, DP = WW2. In WW1, stalling was best due to not as useful offensive tech and doctrines and speed (even the Sliefmann plan failed due to low speed). Defensive tech was simply better than offensive. However, this all changes with WW2. Super fast weaponry (early rockets, tanks, blitzkrieg doctrine, and airplanes) with huge attacking power destroyed common defenses, or simply bypassed them. However, defense wasn't gone, it was just smaller, and NOT the trenches of WW1.

Which Pokemon would be the Maginot Line? :)

 

[Zacharian]

Which Pokemon would be the Maginot Line? :)

Hmmm.... Snorlax?

 

[adman2]

Hmmm.... Snorlax?

Snorlax isn't quite French enough. :)

 

[salamenace]

Use your imagination.

 

[CactuarJoe]

I imagined Snorlax with a beret, and it made me sad.

 

[Big Bayou]

EDIT: Big Bayou, most stall teams carry a Wisher.

And if you're generically dubbing a Pokemon (not a whole team) a "staller", it shouldn't have to tag out to sustain it's life. Bronzong will be forced to switch eventually vs. most things; they will simply last longer than it does unless it carries a move that exploits a heavy weakness (and in that case, it's not a "staller" anymore). Hence it is not, in and of itself, a "staller".

 

[COalex]

I don't see where you're getting your definition from, but Bronzong is most definitely a staller. Huge amount of resistances and high defenses as well as only one weakness = Staller

EDIT: I'm not tacking anything onto it; stall teams WILL have a wisher, so you can't say that Bronzong has no way to heal. Plus, Leftovers.

 

[Big Bayou]

A lot of people in this thread are missing the point.

Stalling teams and stalling Pokemon are based on different principles, though stalling teams always include some form(s) of stalling Pokemon.

Bronzong is not a good staller because in most cases if he does not have a move that hits his foe super-effective, he won't outlast them. A lot of things, particularly Pokemon with Close Combat and special attacker dealing neutral STAB damage, can easily come in and 2-3hko, taking piddly damage from whatever attacks he may be packing (at the max two different ones, as Rest/STalk take up the half a moveset). Far too many things can even set up Subs on Bronzong, as it doesn't have Taunt either. So Toxic may not even do it.

In short, there are too many things that can switch into Bronzong without fear and outlast it, effectively outstalling "the Premier Staller of D/P".

A true stalling Pokemon can waste the enemy's turns and mostly sustain it's health without having to switch out to get Wishes passed to it, a trait that Bronzong cannot boast. It also should have some way to encourage the enemy to switch out so that they take some spikes damage or allow the staller to status another member of their team. This could be by indirect damage like Toxic, Sandstorm, or Leech Seed, or more direct attacks. Stalling Pokemon should also not have to largely rely on typing to keep their enemies at bay. If I switch Weezing into something like non-SE Heracross and proceed to Pain-Split it repeatedly for 10 turns and throw in a T-bolt when I can, refusing to faint or let Hera past, that is not stalling. That is walling, using type to stop things in their tracks. Bronzong cannot continue its "stalling" if, say, Infernape switches in, despite the fact that it can wall many metagame standards and threaten them with 4xeffective moves.

Good stalling pokemon are things like Subseeders, PP stallers, and even Flinch-Haxers kinda. Here's an example from the Anaylses Section.

Aerodactyl
name: PP Staller
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Protect
move 3: Roost
move 4: Fly/Rock Slide/Earthquake/Aerial Ace
item: Leftovers
ability: Pressure
nature: Jolly
evs: 252hp/6spdef/252spd

It's not screwed if something with super effective damage comes in. It can't really be put to sleep. It can only last so long, but it's longevity is not determined by it's typing or defensive stats. Same deal with things like Sceptile and Jumpluff. These are the real stallers.

Stalling teams have the same goal as these individual stallers: to waste turns, deal a large amount of indirect damage, force switches, and outlast the enemy. They just take a more teamworkish stance towards things. They rely on many sturdy Pokemon to ensure a solid defensive framework and then use actual stalling pokemon like SubSeed Breloom to shuffle through teams and wear them down. Stalling teams often utilize statuses like Will-o-Wisp and Thunderwave to weaken the opponent's offensive abilities and better their chances of outlasting.

That was long.

 

[Mr.E]

Sceptile and especially Jumpluff are the shit.

"It must stand guard on both sides of the offensive spectrum in order to have switch wars end in your favor."

It's not that... pokemon are still mainly special or physical. The difference is that you can't rely on your type to save you from physical/special threats... like Electrivire, who is a physical threat, cannot be stopped by Skarmory because Skarmory is weak to Electric (which wouldn't have been a problem in Advance, where he had no Physical weaknesses)

On the other hand, Skarmory would've been OHKOed by pretty much any STAB Tbolt in Advance. It can't do anything to Electivire anyway, but it can at least survive a hit (maybe even two) from its Tpunch and is a lot stronger against random Fire Fangs than he is against random Fire Blasts. It works both ways.

I wonder how many actual stalling teams have been bred, EV trained, and actually tested out.

Every team's a stall team on Wi-Fi amirite olol

 

[Big Bayou]

Sceptile and especially Jumpluff are the shit.

Hell yeah. Probably the Pokemon that brought me the most joy in ADV, a close second being SubSeed Breloom. But Jumpluff is much cooler.

 

[COalex]

It's not screwed if something with super effective damage comes in. It can't really be put to sleep. It can only last so long, but it's longevity is not determined by it's typing or defensive stats. Same deal with things like Sceptile and Jumpluff. These are the real stallers.

And yet earlier you say:

A true stalling Pokemon can waste the enemy's turns and mostly sustain it's health without having to switch out to get Wishes passed to it, a trait that Bronzong cannot boast.

Which is it?

You say that one of Bronzong's problems is its lack of recovery, and then later on you complain that Restalking takes up half a set.

You say that a good staller has a way to force the opponent to switch. Doesn't switching Bronzong in on a CBed Stone Edge force the opponent to switch?

Also, Bronzong has a good attacking movepool with stuff like Earthquake and Grass Knot. Stop your complaining ;o

EDIT: Wait, did you just call Subseeders an example of good stallers in D/P? Don't they lose all of their effectiveness in Sandstorm?

 

[Forsety]

And yet earlier you say:
EDIT: Wait, did you just call Subseeders an example of good stallers in D/P? Don't they lose all of their effectiveness in Sandstorm?

Not at all, you'll find the two big Sandstream Pokemon have epic HP (Tyrannitar & Hippowdon).

All Sandstorm does is cancel out the Leftover recovery but the sheer ammount of HP you can leech off those two is abnormal and on something with low HP like Jumpluff its still far more than enough to work at maybe a 50% efficiency.

Low HP is a good thing with a generic subseeder as the important thing is to keep that Substitute up. Although I think Slack Off Hippowdon is a definite new threat to Subseed to anything other than Sceptile.

Something else that should be said is the point of playing defensive isn't to just annoy your opponent or to drag out things. Half the point of the style is to slow your opponent down and force them to play at your pace. Essentially controlling the flow of a battle, the other half being that it results in a win.

Offensive play follows the same concept except at the other side of the spectrum. You want them to play at your pace so you try playing faster than your opponent. The only way they can fight you is to either outspeed (not literally) you even more or to slow you down to a level they can match.

 

[leafgreen386]

Not at all, you'll find the two big Sandstream Pokemon have epic HP (Tyrannitar & Hippowdon).

I fail to see how this is relevant. That's one pokemon on a 6 pokemon team. You don't think they're going to have other pokes that will be able to take it? More importantly, do you think that you're always going to be getting in on the sandstream poke? Be realistic. Although you will probably be able to force a switch with a seeder when you bring it in, they are harder to use in a sandstorm. Even if you've only got 250 HP (sceptile's absolute min), against other pokes with average hp you'll be losing about 10% of your HP every turn.

 

[Forsety]

More importantly, do you think that you're always going to be getting in on the sandstream poke? Be realistic.

Actually it assumes they come in on the Subseeder, not the other way round. I'd be damned (and retarded) if I ever switched Jumpluff into T-tar or Hippowdon head on.

Do you even think subseed would even be effective if it only simply recovered health.

Subseeders don't rely on subseeding alone, if they did then it'd be a pretty crappy strategy/pokemon. Subseeding is a defensive way of weakening the opponent enough for a one strike kill, the healing and switch encouragement is secondary.

Out of the subseed pokemon, Poison Heal Breloom could care less about Sandstorm and hits hardest. Jumpluff can still screw you over with Encore or quick Sleep. Sceptile is still perfectly capable of sweeping you. Tangrowth can still tank, sleep and hit hard.

Secondly the question which you've missed completely.

Don't they lose all of their effectiveness in Sandstorm?

Which simply isn't true. You can still at least weaken down a stubborn non-switcher enough for a kill and if they switch then that simply works in your favour as you have a sub up and a free attack.

All Sandstorm does is it stops you having perfect health after every round therefore stopping the stall aspect of it. But as I've stressed constantly a good defensive has to still offer a offensive threat and it does that perfectly.

 

[husk]

Most of the d/p rmts are waiting for a stall team to put a dick in their box.

 

[shadysback321]

"Stalling" does not seem popular this gen. Walling however is quite a different story. However, it is more about being able to switch into someone attacks survive the hit, and hit back hard.

 

[leafgreen386]

Ok, before I say anything else, I need to clarify something: I never said subseeders become useless in a sandstorm. I said that they lose effectiveness. They're still pretty freaking useful.

Actually it assumes they come in on the Subseeder, not the other way round. I'd be damned (and retarded) if I ever switched Jumpluff into T-tar or Hippowdon head on.

TTar coming in on sceptile? Somehow I really don't see that happening. Assuming you've got either spikes or sr down, ttar can't switch into sceptile and live; Energy ball is a 2HKO under those conditions. Hippowdon gets it even worse, since it doesn't have the sdef boost, taking 72% min with 252 HP/0 sdef from a 309 satk sceptile. Tangrowth has great defenses, and with no satk will usually 3HKO ttar (with spikes or sr and max damage both times you can squeeze out a 2HKO), and will always 2HKO hippowdon, although given some satk will tear them apart just as much as sceptile does, if not more, due to the 5 greater base satk (even though I don't really like it as a subseeder so much, and I like the idea of maxing its satk even less, although I guess the options are out there). Breloom OHKOs ttar. Jumpluff does 49-57% to hippo (if it's packing energy ball). These are not pokes that sandstreamers wanna come in on, by any means.

No sane person would risk this. And the difficulty of bringing in a seeder not named tangrowth on ttar/hippo was the entire point of my statement. The chances of you actually encountering this matchup would be very small, granted that your opponent isn't an idiot, of course.

You claim the assumption is that ttar/hippo is switching in on you. The real assumption here is that sandstorm is already in play when your subseeder comes out against <whoever>.

Do you even think subseed would even be effective if it only simply recovered health.

It would be as worthless as aqua ring. Of course I don't think it would be effective. That's not the point. If you're losing 10% or more of your HP every turn, you will die much sooner than you would ordinarily, thus reducing the effectiveness of subseeding in a sandstorm.

 

[COalex]

I really don't understand why Subseeders would be good stallers in D/P. Most good stall pokemon generally have at least one of the following:

1) Lots of resistances.
2) High, high defenses.
3) A good recovery move.
4) Some way to make them take less damage (Such as the PP staller Aerodactyl mentioned earlier)

I fail to see how Subseeders have any of those qualities. Grass only really resists Earthquake, Thunderbolt, and Surf, most Subseeders have very low HP, and they lose about 10% of their health every turn in Sandstorm.

 

[Big Bayou]

And yet earlier you say:

Which is it?

You say that one of Bronzong's problems is its lack of recovery, and then later on you complain that Restalking takes up half a set.

Also, Bronzong has a good attacking movepool with stuff like Earthquake and Grass Knot. Stop your complaining ;o

EDIT: Wait, did you just call Subseeders an example of good stallers in D/P? Don't they lose all of their effectiveness in Sandstorm?

lol

Ok, if there is a Pokemon that can last forever vs. any given opponent, please name it. Excluding certain Pokemon with recovery moves walling others, there are really none outside of Subseeders, who are limited by Substitute's PP. My point was that the stalling Pokemon needs to be able to somewhat sustain its HP despite whatever attacks the enemy throws at it through something like Subseed or Protect/Sub/Leftovers.

Bronzong's good attacking movepool is backed up by average attacking stats, which you certainly can't afford to boost with THAT many EVs seeing as its defenses are not too stellar, as even with 252 in HP and 100 in DEF with a + nature, CBtar's crunch is able score a 2hko. Investing in one side leaves you vulnerable to the other as well. Bronzong is kind of like Claydol in the attacking regard- it will only hurt things that it deals super-effective damage to, which means that you can give it moves to counter certain threats, like giving it HP Ice and Grass Knot to fight off Garchomp and Rhyperior, but it by no means has a wide attacking range.

Subseeders do not lose effectiveness in a sandstorm. They are hampered, sure, but not completely shut down. Actually, Breloom with Toxic Orb works just fine in sandstorm.

 

[Mr.E]

In other news, I could see Big Root being useful for SubSeeders. They're probably get more recovery from Leftovers, but Big Root increases the damage done to the opponent as well (and is helpful if you're switching out) so it goes with the whole mass passive damage thing.

Tengrowth will probably be using Power Whip, which would actually be just as good on T-Tar if not highly less effective on Hippowdon (but Hippowdon can't touch Tangrowth anyway).

As for Breloom, I'm honestly not a big fan of SubSeeding with it. Spore is a requirement and with SubSeed on top of that, you only have one slot left so you can't fit both Seed Bomb and [Fighting attack] in. :(

You only lose 6.25% of your Health in Sandstorm/Hail, regardless of your absolute HP total. Morons.

 

[Treedweller]

Well, adding on to your Big Root point, I could see it being exceedingly useful on a Subseeding Celebi if Giga Drain is included for the power boost on both and healing boost on Giga Drain. Of course, you wouldn't want to be stuck with exclusively grass moves, so I could see Sub, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Psychic working very well together with the Big Root. Of course, you're lacking the passive leftovers recovery, so Celebi would be highly reliant on Leech Seed for damage; you're going to want something that counters Grass types well, like Infernape or Heatran to support it.

 

[Big Bayou]

Idk, Leftovers are pretty critical to a Subseeder's survival. If they switch, you lose your entire recovery. Even so, is the benefit it gives you per turn of Leech Seed going to outdo 6.25% total health recover per turn? Depends on the enemy.

 

[obi]

To summarize this post: Big Root is not going to outclass Leftovers except vs. Crescelia, Blissey, Snorlax, Wobbuffet, Hariyama, and Wailord, basically.

In other news, I could see Big Root being useful for SubSeeders. They're probably get more recovery from Leftovers, but Big Root increases the damage done to the opponent as well (and is helpful if you're switching out) so it goes with the whole mass passive damage thing.

Big Root only increases the amount you heal by 30%, they still take the same amount of damage. For this reason, for Big Root to outclass Leech Seed...

Leech Seed saps 12.5% of their HP per turn. Leftovers heals 6.25% of your HP. Leech Seed with Big Root heals you 1/8 * 13/10 = 16.25% of their HP each turn, an increase of 3.75%. Their HP, therefore, must be 66.67% higher than yours for Big Root's healing to equal Leftovers's, ignoring turns where they switch and you don't use Leech Seed that same turn to hit their switch in. Assuming a Sceptile with 0 HP EVs and an HP IV of 0 as well, you have 250 HP, so they would need 417 HP just for Big Root to equal Leftovers on the turns they are under the effects of Leech Seed (and obviously, when they aren't under its effects, Leftovers is clearly better). Of course, if you have moves like Giga Drain, that helps a bit, but with Giga Drain's already low PP, and the fact that most people use the strategy of PP stalling vs. Subseeders, I'm not sure that's a good idea.

As for Breloom, I'm honestly not a big fan of SubSeeding with it. Spore is a requirement and with SubSeed on top of that, you only have one slot left so you can't fit both Seed Bomb and [Fighting attack] in. :(

Breloom is also much slower than I like my Subseeders.

You only lose 6.25% of your Health in Sandstorm/Hail, regardless of your absolute HP total. Morons.

I believe they were factoring in Substitute. You lose 25% of your HP from Substitute, and Sandstorm cancels out Leftovers, meaning each turn you lose 25% - Leech Seed's gain. Using that same Sceptile I mentioned earlier, with 250 HP, you'd need to recover 62 HP each turn to break even. Assuming Sandstorm is in play and you have Leftovers, you need to get all of that from Leech Seed, which would require you to be Leech Seeding a Pokemon with at least 496 HP.

Well, adding on to your Big Root point, I could see it being exceedingly useful on a Subseeding Celebi if Giga Drain is included for the power boost on both and healing boost on Giga Drain. Of course, you wouldn't want to be stuck with exclusively grass moves, so I could see Sub, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, and Psychic working very well together with the Big Root. Of course, you're lacking the passive leftovers recovery, so Celebi would be highly reliant on Leech Seed for damage; you're going to want something that counters Grass types well, like Infernape or Heatran to support it.

I'd really rather just use one type of attack on Celebi and use Recover, or just not use Celebi as a subseeder, but rather, Leech Seed + Recover. Unlike Sceptile, Jumpluff, and the like, Celebi has the defensive abilities to take a hit or two as it Recovers. This is obviously more vulnerable to status (but Natural Cure overcomes that) and CHes (meh), but it does allow Celebi to do significantly better in a Sandstorm than others.