Policy Review State of the CAP Metagame

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Just yesterday in #doubles i had to explain to multiple users that caps are made for the OU metagame, and clear up many related misconceptions. Not new users either, it was audiosurfer and mizuhime and some others. Nobody outside of our bubble knows this is the case. I really wish it would get a name change
 
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jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
The question here is, did that have anything to do with the subforum? Personally, I have a hard time believing that anyone who has been around as long as those individuals would have suddenly started thinking anything like that when the subforum came into existence, and in my mind, that is a consequence of simply the meta being what it is, and nothing to do with the name. On the other hand, if that does have something to do with the subforum, then said users clearly failed to read either the forum description or the forum rules, and no matter what we do anywhere on all of Smogon, if people refuse to read the rules, we are not going to get people to follow them. The latter case here would be especially unfortunate, seeing as users like that should really know to read the rules.

Frankly, I think the much bigger issue here is not that people think that CAPs are for the CAP metagame, but rather, they have no reason to believe otherwise. What I mean by this is that, while it is obvious to people in the CAP community that we make Pokemon for OU, no one looking in from the outside would know that. We don't say in in our threads. We don't say it in our rules. If we have a problem, our first response should be to increase awareness of what we DO make Pokemon for, and not try and simply tell people what we do not do. As soon as you can show me where we have it in big bold that "CAPs are made for OU" I will agree that the problem stems from the lack of big bold "CAPs are not for the CAP metagame."

I really just feel that people are trying to look for a problem where there really isn't one. This "confusion" if it exists, is nothing new. I believe that if peopole have actually been paying attention, they would notice that we haven't suddenly started seeing more of this than in the past. Its a little thing that has always been there, and if anything, I personally have noticed less of it, among new users who we should be most concerned about, than usual in most places since we have had a forum specifically saying that we do not make Pokemon for the CAP metagame. If veterans are the ones getting more confused, then the problem is with a Smogon culture that allows veterans to not read rules, and not anything to do with the metagame.

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For what its worth, I really don't appreciate the whole "threat" thing on your part Birkal . While agree that we don't want confusion, this is not really a moderation issue. If Doug, as the head admin wants to remove something, that would be one thing. As much as we make it seem otherwise, this is a dictatorship if it needs to be. However, in any other situation, this is a community decision making process. The head mod position as defined by Doug is an organizational one, and by the set out definition, has nothing to do with higher authority. The PRC put this in place, so if the PRC wants to change it, then then PRC can. If Doug wants to change it, Doug can. That's it. Threatening usage of power that one does not rightfully possess is what has led to past leadership splits that we do not want to repeat. I wish that stuff like this didn't need to be brought up here, but the way people have been talking, I feel it is necessary to say. Lets work any issues we have out as a group, and not make this messy when it doesn't have to be.
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
Yes, the misconception existed before the subforum but the subforum and ladder aren't helping. Why should we not make a simple change when it has such a large benefit?
 

paintseagull

pink wingull
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Pwnemon, because so far, nobody has proposed a name change that was
a) catchy enough to have people who play the CAP meta actually stop calling the CAP meta "the CAP meta"
b) not even more confusing than "CAP meta"
c) not encouraging an attitude to further alienate the CAP meta which is *the exact opposite* of what this thread has set out to do

Speaking of attitudes to further alienate the CAP meta, Birkal and Doug, I super don't get where you're coming from. Very unhelpful attitude, in my opinion.

Agreeing with jas that the problem lies elsewhere than in the name, but if we want to eliminate the name from the list of potentially confusing issues here, let's try to brainstorm a new name that adheres to a) b) and c) above?
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
CAPably/CAPriciously/CAPly for all I care Used, or CU for short

Or in the world of bad puns again, Faux U.
 

DetroitLolcat

Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
After reading the past seven posts in this thread I'm glad I'm not the only one confused at what's going on. I do not understand how this thread went from essentially dead to "there's a secret deal and we're seriously considering ripping the CAP Meta off of Showdown" or why the proposed solution is removing the CAP metagame without a trace. I'd at least address jas's concern first: that there are surprisingly few reminders/notifications that CAPs are not made for the CAP metagame or that the CAP metagame is a side project. I really hope I misinterpreted something because I don't understand any of this hostility and I can barely believe that removing the CAP metagame over a name is being taken seriously.

For a new name, how about "CAP OU"? It doesn't matter if the name is still colloquially referred to as CAP as long as the titles on Smogon and Showdown make it explicitly clear that this metagame includes both the CAPs and OU Pokemon.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
If we're going to change the name, which I have no principled problem with, can we AVOID the weakass pun names that were floated the last time The Great Name War came up?

We could also change the main forum description to "CAP Pokemon are made for the OU Metagame" which will mirror our CAP description (people can't see that description for the subforum from the main page though). Might I suggest "Unlimited CAP (Metagame)?" It avoids the ALL CAP or All Cap weaksauce psuedo-pun and still makes it sufficiently clear from the name only that we're not making a specific project for it. It can be UCAP for short.

EDIT: I have altered the deal. Pray I alter it no further!
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
We should absolutely also advertise as prominently as possible that CAPs are made for the current OU metagame. However, i think that tweaking the CAP metagame name is a component of advertising "as prominently as possible."

I'm not new to the idea of tweaking metagame names. When we first started, we were known as Smogon Doubles. But the OM leaders made the wise decision to force us to change our name because it gave the wrong impression that we had some official affiliation. I liked the Smogon Doubles name better because it differentiated us from Battle Spot Doubles (which also goes by Doubles) and from the doubles format in general. But after ten seconds everyone stopped caring, and i still refer to it as smogdubs in contexts where there might be confusion.

In the same way, if we tweak the name of the CAP metagame to CAP+ or All-CAP (a name by which I have referred to the metagame for years) or even CAP side metagame (my personal favorite) it can really only be positives. We differentiate the project officially, but if you want you can still refer to it as CAP and nobody will care—what's more likely, that someone gets a misconception from a conversation between CAP players (not named vryheid) or that they get a misconception from reading the forum's name and drawing the obvious conclusion "CAP and the CAP metagame are related?"

a) catchy enough to have people who play the CAP meta actually stop calling the CAP meta "the CAP meta"
b) not even more confusing than "CAP meta"
c) not encouraging an attitude to further alienate the CAP meta which is *the exact opposite* of what this thread has set out to do
I believe i've addressed a; i.e., it doesn't matter if it's still called CAP colloquially. As for B, the name "CAP Side Metagame" is perfectly unambiguous as to its nature, and as a bonus retains the basic name of just "CAP." The name "All-CAP Metagame" is a little more ambiguous but still beats the current name and is perhaps more appeasing to its players. As for point c, i'm sorry, but if the CAP metagame is interfering with the health of CAP proper, then CAP proper will always win out, and from all accounts of conversations with non-CAPpers this is the case, so i'm of the opinion that the name must be changed in some way.

Edit: im not a favor of CAP OU because it really doesnt help clear up anything at all; if anything it makes it worse because now "caps are made for ou" isnt as plain of a statement
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
23:56 Pwnemon: i'd ur opinion on a problem plaguing the newest cap if u wouldnt mind
23:56 aim: OOO
23:56 Pwnemon: i'd like*
23:57 aim: i actually wanted to get into cap mons
23:57 aim: wasup
---------
00:08 aim: i actuall want to get into cap
00:08 aim: but i have no idea how
00:08 aim: i read a team
00:08 aim: and was like
00:08 aim: WHAT IS THIS
00:08 Pwnemon: o
00:08 Pwnemon: nah
00:09 aim: all i remember from back in the day was
00:09 aim: voodoom
00:09 Pwnemon: the cap meta is its own thing
00:09 aim: :J
00:09 Pwnemon: when we're buildin caps
00:09 Pwnemon: its for just
00:09 Pwnemon: ou
00:09 aim: O

as these incidents keep pouring in, i get more and more convinced that something has to change. even something as small as adding "for the current OU metagame" to the end of our subforum description. But nothing has happened...
 

Vryheid

fudge jelly
I entirely agree that the name of the CAP meta aught to be changed. On the opposite end of the spectrum we've had plenty of people ask in the Showdown chat about "how do I help make a CAP?" and I've had to repeatedly refer them to IRC and the forums. "Post CAP" and "CAP OU" seem like the least intrusive name changes, something like "CAP Side Meta" would drive the point home even further. And yes, the welcome message could make this clearer. Maybe changing it from this:

"Learn about CAP at our website and join in on our forums"

to this:

"This meta is an offshoot of the CAP Project. Learn about the CAP process at our website and join in on our forums."
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
On the opposite end of the spectrum we've had plenty of people ask in the Showdown chat about "how do I help make a CAP?" and I've had to repeatedly refer them to IRC and the forums.
Alright, first of all, the PS room is NOT exclusively for the CAP meta. We can and do talk about the CAP process in the CAP Project PS room. We also talk about the meta, but changing the welcome message to focus only on the meta and not on the process isn't really what we should be doing. The room should be a place to house both meta and CAP process discussion...

Perhaps it's having a single PS room that caters to both sides that causes some confusion. But really, splitting the single room into two and separating them doesn't seem like a good option to me since the user base simply doesn't exist to keep them both alive if they're separate. Not to mention I think you'd still constantly have people joining one room and asking questions that belong in the other.

I think the best solution is just making it very obvious in process OPs that the CAP process and the subsequent playtest are made to fit into OU and that CAPs are NOT made for the CAP metagame, or whatever it ends up being called if there's a name change. Forum descriptions could also echo this sentiment. I would fully support pwnemon's suggestion of adding "for the current OU metagame" at the end of the CAP process forum's description. And as far as the PS's room intro, adding a bold line that "CAPs are made for OU and not for the CAP meta" could be helpful as well. Explicitly and specifically making these kinds of statements to be seen should be our first response to let me know about how things work, or so I would think.
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
I pretty much agree with what HeaL just said here, especially that last line.
Explicitly and specifically making these kinds of statements to be seen should be our first response to let me know about how things work, or so I would think.
I've already stated my piece on names and whatnot. I am open to change if that is what people want, but overall, I think we are jumping to more radical action when the most obvious solutions are simple and sitting right in front of us. We can't get people to know what we are not unless we are willing to tell them what we are.

Also, just as an fyi, I added a bold line at the bottom of the PS CAP room intro letting people know that CAPs are made for OU.
 

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