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Data State of the Game (07/04/14)

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I don't know about the above two, but since Mega Gyarados can participate in Sky Battles (Fact) it should have the Levitate Command. If regular Gyarados has to get it too at the same time, then w/e.

Edit: And also Mega Charizard X should be thrown in too I suppose.
 
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I saw this on a comment somewhere in the NDA and I do realise it is a decent amount of work for those who maintain it but could we add (Move) to the name of every move in it? So many move names pop up in the flavour descriptions that it really isn't funny.
 
Can we do something about these Proposed changes at some point? I'd like to at least see a discussion about one of these, possibly both.

Personally, I don't think HP is that big of an issue. It makes Pokemon really strong sure but in order for mechanic changes to make any actual difference we'd need a much stronger nerf. Snorlax just isn't going to care about losing 4 maximum hp.

Now, for weight based moves, we brought this up on IRC and I may as well put it up here. Weight Based moves are among the strongest in the game, and, according to some, Pokemon that use them can be a little too strong. Pyroak is the main example here, though others like Aggron and Snorlax exist. However, some Pokemon that can use Weight Based moves run into very few issues (Such as Staraptor) because they aren't that heavy. Additionally, completely removing weight from the equation...seems to me like it'd make Weight Class somewhat useless except in specific circumstances. Thus, I'd like to make a quick proposal that basically goes like this:
  • All Weight Based Recoil moves with 10 BAP or higher before Weight Class is added in are shifted to a base of 11 or 12 BAP
  • Depending on the weight of the Pokemon, the move gains a small boost to it's Power.
So, to compare. (Do note that this isn't set in stone.)

Current Flare Blitz said:
Flare Blitz: The Pokémon becomes engulfed in flames, and charges at the opponent with great force, taking recoil equal to 1/3 of the damage from the attack. It will thaw a frozen opponent, and has a chance to burn the opponent.

Attack Power: 10 + User Weight Class | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 + Weight Class/2 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 10% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fire | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental
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Proposed Flare Blitz said:
Flare Blitz: The Pokémon becomes engulfed in flames, and charges at the opponent with great force, taking recoil equal to 1/3 of the damage from the attack. It will thaw a frozen opponent, and has a chance to burn the opponent.

Attack Power: 11+Weight Factor | Accuracy: 100% | Energy Cost: 7 + Weight Class/2 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: 10% | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fire | Priority: 0 | CT: Elemental l Weight Factor: 1-4 WC=0, 5-8 WC=1, 9+WC=2
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This is just an idea, but I'd like to see these proposals concluded.

EDIT: Also, check this post out.
 
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Wouldn't it be better then to have each WC have a different BP like Grass Knot and Low Kick

Edit: also, while a 5 hp reduccion might not seem important a 10 hp one might do the trick (that is if we change hp values to 90, 95, 100, etc...)
 
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Searching for Substitute on the Moves on the NDA yields 33 results. Would it be possible to put "(move)" in Substitute's name in order to make finding it easier?

Edit: Specifically, it is the 26th result.

ObjEDIT: Done.
 
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Personally looking at the Weight Class Recoil move issue, I think honestly if something is overpowered in some way because of its ability to slug opponents with a powerful move with little to no drawbacks, then it might make sense to hit the moves that those Pokémon abuse.

In this case, some people are complaining about Pyroak & its ability to slug its opponents with 15 BAP, drawback-free STAB moves. How should this be fixed? Basically the problem lies in the Damage Formula of Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer, which means a nerf to those two moves seems necessary imho. What I feel like should be done to Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer is change the BAP Formula to either FLOOR(10+(WC÷2)) or FLOOR(10+(WC÷1.5)) from 10+WC. What this would do is turn Pyroak's 15 BAP STAB into a more respectable 12/13 BAP STAB that is still stronger than most other STAB moves that Pyroak has in its possession while keeping it reasonable. Basically a subtle change that causes minimal collateral damage without affecting other Pokémon too much here. Naturally the EC might have to change to compensate, perhaps possibly to bring the two moves in line with the general EC conventions.

While what I am proposing is a possible solution to deal with Pyroak through a nerf to Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer, what this does not mean however is that all powerful recoil moves will be changed to this way; that is just a shitty slippery slope argument. Just because Wood Hammer & Flare Blitz might get nerfed, does not mean Brave Bird will be nerfed as well (name me one Pokémon in ASB that is at least "overpowered" due to Brave Bird spam). Maybe Head Smash could be nerfed to the same formula as Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer because of Aggron and its supercharged 20 BAP drawback-free STAB and maybe even Double Edge as well because of Snorlax.

The bottom line here is that I am throwing around an idea to nerf Flare Blitz/Wood Hammer alongside possibly Head Smash and Double Edge to a very respectable level. The advantages of this allows us to avoid having to re-invent the wheel with HP and Weight Classes while keeping the main problem abusers from being badly nerfed and causing as little collateral damage to other Pokémon as possible.

Of course I am not 100% attached to this but if the threat of Pokémon like Pyroak are too big to ignore, then I feel like this is the superior solution.
 
Mulan15262 said:
Head Smash is never completely drawback-free for Aggron. It still has only 80% accuracy.

Other than that, I completely agree with you.
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That would only be true if he had a less powerful yet 100 accurate version of the move to use, and the closest to that is... Smack down (yeah...). Even Rock Slide: 20 BP vs 8 BP means that from 10 hits, Head smash does 160 dmg, meanwhile Rock Slide hitting 9 of 10 does a pathetic 72, even if Head smash missed 6 times it would still outdamages Rock Slide's average (and would tie if all RS hit while only 4 Head Smashes hit). While this is a simplified example you can see why Head Smash is Drawback free, there is no reason for Aggron NOT to use the move.
 
Gerard said:
That would only be true if he had a less powerful yet 100 accurate version of the move to use, and the closest to that is... Smack down (yeah...). Even Rock Slide: 20 BP vs 8 BP means that from 10 hits, Head smash does 160 dmg, meanwhile Rock Slide hitting 9 of 10 does a pathetic 72, even if Head smash missed 6 times it would still outdamages Rock Slide's average (and would tie if all RS hit while only 4 Head Smashes hit). While this is a simplified example you can see why Head Smash is Drawback free, there is no reason for Aggron NOT to use the move.
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Don't forget that Aggron can use Iron Head (or, if the foe is WC 8 or less, like about 95% of all FE pokemon, Heavy Slam) for 100% accurate STAB. A foe with WC 1-3 (about 195 FEs) is hit equally hard, or even harder, ignoring type match-ups by Heavy Slam than it is by Head Smash. Aggron also gets special 100% accuracte STAB in the form of Ancient Power and Flash Cannon.

FE Pokemon per weight class(ignoring abilities and CAP): 44 pokemon in WC 1, 49 pokemon in WC 2, 102 pokemon in WC 3, 98 pokemon in WC 4, 49 pokemon in WC 5, 21 pokemon in WC 6, 14 pokemon in WC 7, 6 pokemon in WC 8, 3 pokemon in WC 9, 2 pokemon in WC 10, 1 pokemon in WC 11, and 1 pokemon in WC 12. The data has been collected and put into a few graphs and a spreadsheet here.
Stats: The most common WC is #3. One fourth of all pokemon are in WC 1 or 2. Half of all pokemon are in WC 3 or less. Three-fourths of all pokemon are WC 4 or less. Seven-eights of all pokemon are in WC 5 or less.

Against WC 1, Heavy Slam has 24 power. Against WC 2, Heavy Slam has 22 power. Against WC 3, Heavy Slam has 20 power. Against WC 4, Heavy Slam has 18 power. Against WC 5, Heavy Slam has 16 BP. Head Smash averages at 16.8 BAP, factoring in misses. Against WC 1-4 (about 3/4 of FEs), Heavy Slam has higher BP. Against WC 5+, Head Smash has higher BP.

By virtue of type, Head Smash hits Fire, Ice, Flying, and Bug for SE damage, while being resisted by Fighting, Ground, and Steel. Heavy Slam hits Rock, Ice, and Fairy for SE damage, while being resisted by Electric, Water, Fire, and Steel. Head Smash is slightly better offensively, but Heavy Slam deals more damage to those who threaten Aggron with SE STABs.
 
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The fact that Heavy Slam can out-damage Head Smash more often than not is irrelevant. It does not take away from the fact that Head Smash is still ridiculously powerful & spammable. Just take this into account: A +Attack Aggron will deal more damage to a neutral Defence Carbink with Head Smash than it will with Iron Head, even under Reflect (Iron Head costs less energy however but the fact remains). Also yeah, Head Smash can miss but 80% is still considered to be reliable in the way that you can expect it to hit more often than not.
 
If this isn't the right place to make suggestions about the NDA, mods please re/move this post.

Since every Pokemon of a Species with a Positive Speed nature should have the same accuracy bonus AND said accuracy bonuses can seem intimidating to calculate for new players, could we add a column to the Pokemon Sheet of the NDA for said accuracy boosts. I would see it as something at least as useful as having the Signature Item boosted stats listed, and something that would be more helpful to newer players than to the veterans.

This seems like a lot of work, but I have a process in mind that would involve formulas and lots of pasting but could make the task relatively quick and easy.
 
I've already made a calculator in Python to determine the Speeds from + or - Spe Natures, as well as the Accuracy boosts from every evolution levels:

Code: 
"""
Pokemon ASB +-Speed Nature Calculator
"""
import math


##x = 0 # placeholder for adjusted stat
##print("%-10s%-6s\n" % ("Base Speed", "-Speed"))
##for s in range(5,256):
##    x = math.floor(s / 1.15)
##
##    print("%-10d%-6d" % (s, x))

s = int(input("Base Speed: ")) # base speed
n = math.floor(s / 1.15) # -speed nature
p = math.ceil(s * 1.15) # +speed nature
a1 = round((p ** 2) / 290) # accuracy boost for stage 1/3 'mons
if a1 < 5: # ensures that accuracy is above 5%...
    a1 = 5
if a1 > 30:# ... but below 30%
    a1 = 30
a2 = round((p ** 2) / 435) # accuracy boost for stage 1/2 'mons
if a2 < 5:
    a2 = 5
if a2 > 30:
    a2 = 30
a3 = round((p ** 2) / 580) # accuracy boost for stage 2/3 'mons
if a3 < 5:
    a3 = 5
if a3 > 30:
    a3 = 30
a4 = round((p ** 2) / 870) # accuracy boost for final stage 'mons
if a4 < 5:
    a4 = 5
if a4 > 30:
    a4 = 30

print("\nNegative Speed Nature: " + str(n))
print("Positive Speed Nature: " + str(p))
print("Accuracy Boost at Stage 1/3: " + str(a1) + "%")
print("Accuracy Boost at Stage 1/2: " + str(a2) + "%")
print("Accuracy Boost at Stage 2/3: " + str(a3) + "%")
print("Accuracy Boost at Final Stage: " + str(a4) + "%")

This is what I go to whenever I need to figure out a +- Spe Nature thing.
 
ff7hero said:
If this isn't the right place to make suggestions about the NDA, mods please re/move this post.

Since every Pokemon of a Species with a Positive Speed nature should have the same accuracy bonus AND said accuracy bonuses can seem intimidating to calculate for new players, could we add a column to the Pokemon Sheet of the NDA for said accuracy boosts. I would see it as something at least as useful as having the Signature Item boosted stats listed, and something that would be more helpful to newer players than to the veterans.

This seems like a lot of work, but I have a process in mind that would involve formulas and lots of pasting but could make the task relatively quick and easy.
Click to expand...

Yes, definitely a lot of Copy/Pasting. However, thanks to akela and myself we now have this implemented. Rejoice!
 
Dogfish44 said:
Yes, definitely a lot of Copy/Pasting. However, thanks to akela and myself we now have this implemented. Rejoice!
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And hope and prey that gamefreak doesn't make any new evolutions, pre-evolutions, changing of base speeds, or the committee decides to change how accuracy is calculated.
 
Dogfish44 said:
Yes, definitely a lot of Copy/Pasting. However, thanks to akela and myself we now have this implemented. Rejoice!
Click to expand...

You guys rock! Major props to akela and Dogfish44!

ETA: Looking more at this, that was a nice solution, and it looks to be fairly fluid in it's ability to be adapted to the points akela was concerned about.
 
Its_A_Random said:
The fact that Heavy Slam can out-damage Head Smash more often than not is irrelevant. It does not take away from the fact that Head Smash is still ridiculously powerful & spammable. Just take this into account: A +Attack Aggron will deal more damage to a neutral Defence Carbink with Head Smash than it will with Iron Head, even under Reflect (Iron Head costs less energy however but the fact remains). Also yeah, Head Smash can miss but 80% is still considered to be reliable in the way that you can expect it to hit more often than not.
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Against Carbink, Aggron has no reason whatsoever to use Iron Head. Heavy Slam would be a better option against it, which has a higher BAP than Head Smash and 100% accuracy, not to mention that it has a 1.5* higher type multiplier.

If Heavy Slam outdamages Head Smash, and we deem Head Smash too powerful and in need of a nerf, then Heavy Slam would also need a nerf, so this is relevant.
 
Somewhat sidetracking discussion here, but kind of not.

Heavy Metal's description, as of right now, is
The Pokemon's body structure is immensely dense, doubling its actual weight. Adds two (2) Base Attack Power to all Weight-Based Attacks. Adds Base Attack Power to Gyro Ball equal to half (0.5x) the Pokemon's Weight Class, rounded up.
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Really, there are couple interesting things in the description at the moment.

1. It says it doubles actual weight, but no where does it say what the WC of the mons become after eavy Metal is applied. Not sure if the Bronzong/Aggron family's new WCs should be put by where its WC is in the Pokemon section or in the ability description itself, but it definitely should be somewhere. Alternatively, we could just make it add a flat number to the WC, but that's a whole argument we really don't need to have
2. Why does it buff Gyro Ball? Do Bronzor and Bronzong REALLY need that big of a buff, especially to their most powerful attack? I know it's been there for a while, but it kinda screams buff culture to me, only this time it's buffing something ALREADY immensely strong. It barely even has flavor justification within the ability :/
 
The first version of Heavy Metal had that because, iirc, it is pre-rare candy and pre-new rank 5 limit (and pre-buff culture haha) and Bronzong was very meh by then. I guess it was considered justified that gyro ball would also get a boost as Bronzong was bad and Heavy Slam wasn't that common on it.

Time has brought the zong many boosts and Heavy Metal lost the reason to have that tidbit. But since it was there at the begining it stuck.

I completely agree with you that it is borked to no end and must be removed (that and the extra 2 bap). Just answering why that thing is there.
 
And on that note, closing up this SotG to coincide with the new council.

Issues for this council to tackle:

  • Weight Class related issues (Heavy Metal and the Recoil Moves)
  • HP related issues (How strong is HP?)
  • Combo-Typing related issues

All will move to dedicated discussion threads. Else, we're moving to a new feedback thread!
 
fyi I think tomorrow I'll go through the entire SotG and decide on plans of action for stuff that was left unresolved; if you see me procrastinating on irc feel free to bug me to get to work
 
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