Stealth Rock Abuse Team (OU)

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MythTrainerInfinity

MythTrainerInfinity

I've been using this under my alt nick of StealthRock and quite honestly it wins very easily. The thing is I know this team is far from perfection too. SpikeStacking just does so much its unreal. Its peaked at 4th on the ladder so far, I might be able to devote more time to it once college life gets a little less busy.

My goal is to show my critics how lethal SR really under the right conditions through my battles and I think it should be tested in the very least, SpikeStacking is that good. If not tested I think SpikeStacking will be a really popular trend soon.

General strategy:
Well I like crippling opponents, the idea is to cripple them with status/Trickery, get SR up, get Spikes up, then phaze them out until they die. CMing with Suicune to sweep/wall is relatively easy once you have that all in place.

I really don't think that running complete offense is a very good idea because people with a bit of crippling status/Trickery/yadda yadda will walk all over you.

I don't bother with SpinBlocking because its quite a hassle and its better if I can just lure them out, Trick them a Scarf, restore my own health, status, or just set up in their face with Suicune, which gives me at least one turn of doing whatever I want.

Full SpikeStacking does 37.5% damage to anything that takes a neutral hit from SR and Spikes and does 50% to anything that's weak to SR. This in addition to Tricking/status/whatever kills walls very quickly.

I decided to not opt for a Sandstreamer because everyone is prepared for them and why hurt Suicune, Blissey, Zapdos, and Cresselia when you don't need to. Toxic Spikes is the easiest to get rid of out of all of the Spikes, so I didn't want that either. I just want to show people how dangerous SpikeStacking is with additional pressure.

Edit: Oh I forgot to mention all of them are immune to/have a way to self heal from TS.



Zidane (Jirachi) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 108 HP/200 Atk/200 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Iron Head
- Trick
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

In my opinion Jirachi is the best lead in OU. It has the ability to shut down other leads with its Trickery and Iron Heading Azelf, Tyranitar and Areodactyl. Not to mention U-Turn kills lead Infernape's Sash. 368 HP for decent Lefties Recovery after the Trick. 60% Flinch from Iron Head. U-Turn also hits Celebi really freaking hard, which the rest of my team has a bit of a hard time killing. After losing the Scarf it outruns Jolly Mamoswine too, which is nice.

If you use this set do not be so hasty to put up SR because you'll simply get punished for it early on and you might need to lay it down more than once in a match. Plus its good for mindgames when people know you want to setup SR and then you can punish their attempted punishment. Suicide leads still don't make sense to me if you can do so much with them later.

By having great typing it can take hits, set up SR, and break walls like Celebi and Blissey.

If you do use this set you might want to wait to use Trick until you see the opponent's team a bit because you might need the Scarf to cripple wally sweepers later.

Threats:
Magnezone is obviously the biggest potential threat here if you decide to Trick off the bat. Be careful against lead Infernapes and to a lesser extent Typhlosions because they could outrun you and OHKO if they have a Scarf. Once you lose the Scarf Dugtrio dispatches it pretty easily too, beware of enemy Rotoms until you know what they will do.


North Wall (Suicune) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP/176 Def/80 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Surf
- Rest
- Ice Beam

CalmCune with my favorite EV spread. 80 SDef really adds up after 6 CMs and basically becomes 240 EVs. Deals well against Salamence and is really easy to set up once everything is set in place. This counters Heatran very well and takes hits from Heatran's Fire Blast as well as Blissey does. Most Heatrans won't do more than 60% with their Explosion.

Another good time to play this is when Heatran shows its ugly face to Jirachi and even if they Sub up and Toxic you that is a perfect time to just treat them like setup fodder and CM, which they will hate and will force a good switch or two.

I also love eating up Machamp's Dynamicpunches with Suicune's pressure.

Threats: Zapdos if its actually offensively EVed (or my favorite Zapdos EVs), Rotom (watch out for Trick!), LO Mixmence really hits Suicune hard if Skarm, Bliss, and/or Cress cannot take the hit. Celebi can be a problem if it Seeds you or Leaf Storms you, but you should be pretty safe against it with a couple CMs under your belt.


Pop Rocks (Skarmory) (M) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP/216 Def/40 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Whirlwind
- Roost
- Spikes
- Drill Peck

One of two phazers.

Skarmory sets up Spikes, I decided to pack Shed Shell because of how vital it is in keeping it alive vs. Magnezone. I decided to opt for Drill Peck over Brave Bird because since you don't have lefties you shouldn't be jeopardizing your HP (not to mention if people use Brave Bird consistantly on a Blissey they are forced to recover their HP a lot more and you shouldn't be giving free turns to your opponent anyway...).

Deals nicely vs. things like Breloom and Heracross. Do your best to keep it alive too because threatening people with multiple phazers is very nice. Send it in against Ninjasks too because of the odd Mr. Mimes.

Threats: Anything with a decent, hard-hitting special attack will give you problems. Aside from the really obvious threads watch out for Ttar packing Thunderbolt or Flamethrower.


Grind (Zapdos) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 188 HP/176 Spd/144 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Roost
- Roar
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Second Phazer that aids Skarmory in phazing people out for SpikeStacked damage. HP Ice is for Salamence, 308 Speed to outrun Jolly Lucario. With SpikeStacking Zapdos can score some very easy OHKOs. Its also fun to lure people's Blissey out to only get Roared away and she will take 75% damage after two full SpikeStacked switchins.

By having two phazers it gives you the ability to force people to take more and more residual damage and you don't rely on either one too much.

If Cresselia and Jirachi are down this is the designated poké you want Tricksters to Trick a Scarf to, thereby making you like the fasted poké in that game.

Threats: Aside from its obvious weaknesses. The thing you have to watch out the most is for status. Be very careful against Machamp.


Cheese (Cresselia) (F) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/160 Def/96 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Psycho Shift
- Ice Beam Psychic
- Rest
- Trick

Use this if you suspect a Trick from something like an enemy Metagross or Jirachi. Its one of the best Trick stoppers in the metagame.

Psycho Shifted 100% accuracy non-Flash Fire boosted burns are very threatening. She also stops Ttar and Scizor which then don't counter anymore.

If you are going to wake up from a Rest some people expect you to sit there before the Flame Orb activates you can just Trick it immediately thus burning something without really putting yourself at risk.

Cresselia also greatly compliments SpikeStacking on this team. Think of burning something that's neutral to SR and gets hit by Spikes... That's 50% damage every time that gets switched in.

Also its fun to Trick the Flame Orb to enemy Celebi and Blissey, which basically forces them to waste their recovery moves and in addition to SpikeStacked damage... They won't live very long.

Ice Beam is for Dragons.

Threats: Heatran, U-turners, be careful around enemy Heracross because Guts boosted attacks really hurt, but Megahorn will do laughable damage to Skarmory.


Lard Ball (Blissey) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP/252 Def/4 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Aromatherapy
- Softboiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

Toxic allows me to kill some things that otherwise give this team a hard time (ex. non-Resting Rotoms). Again I opt for nothing else except the max HP/Def because I don't want to have to worry about Dugtrio and Scizor's U-Turn is easily Softboiled after I predict it. If I think Scizor is gonig to do something else I go to Skarmory or Zapdos.

Blissey deals really well against things like Hetran and Zapdos, forcing Heatran to explode usually and if I predict it right I can just switch to Skarm and shrug that damage off.

Other than that your generic cleric, but works pretty well on a team, as having two counters for Heatran is very good.

Threats: Scizor and CB Ttar are the biggest problems I've encountered so far, but I've packed a number of things on this team to give them problems.

Overall Team Threats: DD Taunt Gyarados has given this team the most trouble by far, so I like to keep Jirachi holding onto its Scarf until I know my opponent's team a bit. I also might just go directly to Zapdos when I see it, so there are some options, just don't give it an opportunity to set up much. I could switch IB for HP Electric on Suicune, but then Salamence and Grass types would give me a lot more trouble, and I'm not sure if I want to do that.

Scizor is generally a pain, but Scizor hates residual damage. I didn't want to use a Fire attack because Heatran's boosted Fire Blast is very scary. I want to minimize risk, so my teams play like that.

Feel free to steal this team if you want, my findings are for the public to learn from.
 
Well, SkarmBlissCress is arguably one of the best wall tandems so it is hard to see any originality in this team. The only difference from this team compared to another is that you have a scarf lead and 5 walls. This really is just another stall team imo and there is nothing truly special about it.

Sure, a psycho shift cress is somewhat uncommon, but it really doesn't accomplish anything for your team besides inflict one burn which you probably immediately get rid of. And if you are worried about being tricked, just use Jirachi as their trick counter as most tricksters either trick a scarf or a band onto you. I would suggest something like Dusknoir to block rapid-spin and to also inflict burn status as well as being able to heal itself back up effectively.

Anyways, SkarmBlissCress isn't much originality and adding Zapdos and Suicune as two more walls just makes this team another stall team. And all stall teams abuse stealth rock, spikes and status, so its not like this team is the pioneer to the sr abuse phenomonon.

Onto the team...Heracross is always a problem for SkarmBlissCress if one of the three goes down. Plus Stone Edge can KO Zapdos and if Suicune is gone, your entire team can be swept fairly easily. Mixmence can deal a lot of damage to your team if Cress goes down. Finally, if Porygon-Z gets 1 or 2 nasty plots (as all blissey can do to it is Toxic), it can rampage through your team if Jirachi has already lost its scarf. All in all, not much originality and the wall tandem above is extremely common.
 
Then what about looking at the synergy and not just the wall tandem? I appreciate the feedback, but I disagree with some of the things you're saying.

Anyone can put them together, but that doesn't mean they can work.

Heracross will still have to deal with a Scarfed Jirachi, Zapdos, and Suicune... How is it going to sweep all of that easily? Not to mention it gets worn down by siwtching in and out.

PZ would be worn down by the time it takes down Bliss to survive a Tbolt from Zappy.

Choice Trickers don't work well as trick counters as you're still locked into a move. Cress works as an additinoal mindgame in the sense that she can make Trickers think twice about Tricking.
 
Infernape says hello. The only thing that isn't 2HKOed may (may) be Cressalia, but if its sleeping then you are pretty much dead.

Fire Blast will kill Skarmory, Jirachi, 2HKO Zapdos. Would be used for Cressalia
Close Combat murders Blissey
Grass Knot 2HKOes Suicune

To compensate, I highly reccomend giving Jirachi Zen Headbutt. That way you can at least revenge kill Ape.

This team is a stall team right? I think Tentacruel would help with that and also stop Infernape.

Giving Blissey Flamethrower will help against Scizor, a lot surprisingly. You catch a lot of switch-ins.

For Skarmory, Brave Bird has significant more power over Drill Peck. You do a whole lot more to Machamp and Haryiama. And thanks to Roost the recoil isn't really worrying.
 
U-turn is one of my favorite moves in all of Pokemon, but as MetaNite said, Zen Headbutt would be much better for this particular team because of the "nasty" Infernape weakness. If he mananges to get the chance to come in the game early (like when Skarmory is using Spikes), and uses Nasty Plot on the switch, you lose -- assuming you can't get flinch hax with Jirachi. Chances are you probably could, but that is a sketchy counter to say the least. I guess its a good thing that Nasty Plot 'Napes are pretty uncommon these days.

Blissey can take a CC with that EV spread iirc, but its in your best interest to not make her take that much damage, seeing as how she is very crucial in making Suicune and Cresselia work to their greatest potential.

I don't have much else to say with this team. It is obviously very successful and effective.

I love the Cresselia. Awesome set/concept.
 
Im thinking quite a large shuffle may be necessary.
If we replace mixpert with jirachi as a lead and go with protect and stealth rock on it you will easily be able to get up steath rock for a start and with the choice of the move protect swampert goes some way to preventing oh so common explosions and trickers. Swampert also deals nicely with your CBtar weak. We can put hp electric over ice beam on it to stop gyarados as well.

I think these revisions will really help the team a jirachi lead is unnecessary especially with all the metagross leads which it gets raped by whilst the leads it was built to counter are no longer so common. Coincidetally metagross explosion will also do a shit load to this team. As you have no ghosty.
 
Yes, but tricking flame orb onto a tricker gives them another opportunity to trick the flame orb to someone else on your team. And if MixPert is changed, that opens up your Mixmence weakness even more. Or even the DD Roost Mence to shrug off the Residual Damage you inflict. Maybe suggesting to put either Ice Beam with some defense EV's on Bliss or go with Flamethrower. Just trying to give some counters in situations where you lose your scarf on jirachi, etc. Hope that elaborated a bit more...
 
MythTrainerInfinity said:
I've been using this under my alt nick of StealthRock and quite honestly it wins very easily. The thing is I know this team is far from perfection too. SpikeStacking just does so much its unreal. Its peaked at 4th on the ladder so far, I might be able to devote more time to it once college life gets a little less busy.

My goal is to show my critics how lethal SR really under the right conditions through my battles and I think it should be tested in the very least, SpikeStacking is that good. If not tested I think SpikeStacking will be a really popular trend soon.
Click to expand...

Congratulations, you have discovered stall.

I don't know what you're trying to prove here. "SpikesStacking" is lethal and broken? If I've inferred correctly, "SpikesStacking" is just residual damage, a key element of any stall team. Stall isn't exactly broken in the current metagame; I'm of the opinion that it takes considerably more skill to execute than a purely offensive team. If your point is that stall is viable in the current metagame I completely agree with you. However, calling stall "SpikesStacking" and building a standard stall team base of Bliss + Skarm + Cress with obvious success doesn't make it broken.

tl;dr stall is generally accepted as viable in the current metagame; there's really no need for you to prove that to us.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "if not tested I think [stall] will be a really popular trend soon." Are you suggesting that Spikes be put up for suspect testing as well? The apparent fallibility in your logic is that you tirelessly perpetuate the testing of Stealth Rock while neglecting to support the testing of Trick, a move you abuse to certain degrees of success, which in my doubtlessly shared opinion takes much more care to counter than Stealth Rock (but I don't support banning Trick).

But, this thread is not about Stealth Rock, nor Spikes, nor Trick.

TyraniBoah has a field day with your team. It can setup a Sub on every Pokemon except Jirachi (granted, not every move). After that, Focus Punch + Crunch + Thunderbolt hurts immensely (Substitute blocks Cresselia's trick). Granted, Boah usage has plummeted lately, and if Jirachi is alive it can always U-turn to break the Sub.

Nasty Plot MixApe is normally hard pressed to 2HKOs Cresselia with Fire Blast, but with the Flame Orb damage you'll be suffering, even Flamethrower will (probably) 2HKO. From there, Close Combat and Grass Knot take out everything not weak to Fire.

The best way for you to deal with Boah is to keep Jirachi alive if you suspect it as you will have to make some major changes otherwise. However, MixApe is dealt with simply by giving Cress Leftovers and using the standard set, a change I strongly recommend, but suspect you will refuse to make, given your affinity for the Flame Orb set.

adieu and good luck
 
Once your Jirachi tricks away its Choice Scarf, Swords Dance Infernape tears your team limb from limb. Furthermore, it gets to switch in for absolute free against your Cresselia, as well as menacing out your Skarmory and Blissey for free turns. After a Swords Dance...

Jirachi: 158.94% - 188.27% from Fire Punch

Suicune: 75.25% - 88.61% from Close Combat (chance to OHKO after SR, OHKOed after 2 switchins or any residual damage)

Skarmory: 95.81% - 113.17% from Fire Punch (dead after SR)

Zapdos: 84.78% - 99.73% from Fire Punch, 150.54% - 177.72% from Stone Edge (done for after sr)

Cresselia: 45.95% - 54.28% (not great until you realize that cresselia can't touch infernape and you're taking burn damage instead of healing with lefties seriously man why would you ever use that set)

Blissey: 221.29% - 260.78% (what did you expect it's bliss versus +2 stab close combat)

Anyway, you're going to have to patch up that huge weakness, though tbh I'm not really sure how to do it. (I've never figured out how to "wall" SDApe) The only way to stop it from running through your team is to replace Cresselia with a version that doesn't run Psycho Shift. Sorry, dude, but that's the way it has to go.

However, there is an even bigger problem that is here. You are running an entry hazards based team... with no spin blocker. That's like making a Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwich and forgetting the bread. Sure the Peanut Butter and Jelly is delicious, but it's kinda useless without the bread. I honestly can't imagine the thought process that led to something like that. Anyway... the best thing I can think of is a ResTalking Rotom-W over... something. 252 HP / 252 Def Bold Rotom-W with Hydro Pump / Thunderbolt / Rest / Sleep Talk lets you survive Infernape, block Spin, and many other things. It's up to you to figure out where to put it, but let me say that you're absolutely useless against the two of them without it.
 
Calm Mind Jirachi walks all over your team. Free sub on Cress, Bliss / Cune can't break a one CM'd sub, and Skarmory is taking roughly 65% from TBolt. If it Subs on Cress and you attempt to Psycho Shift, its all dowhill from there. Zapdos takes an average of 50% from a Calm Minded Psychic, and with it's Stealth Rock weakness it can't come in too many times without residual damage being taken. I suppose you can argue and say that U Turn breaks the sub, but whats happening from there? But in my opinion, playing stall without Perish Song Celebi is often asking yourself to be swept by CM Jirachi.
 
Ah, you're StealthRock. We played quite a few times the other night. I should have probably guessed it was you as you're one of the few players who says "gl" before every match. iirc your team really struggled to deal with mine primarily because I use a Rapid Spinner. Since your entire strategy relies on the opponent not having a spinner, you'll be fighting an uphill battle against any opponent that opts to carry one, especially Starmie who has plenty of opportunities to switch in and Spin.

My first instinct here is that Zapdos could probably make way for one of the Rotom formes. Since you'd be losing a phazer you could change Suicune into a shuffler with Surf/Calm Mind/Rest/Roar or even go with Sleep Talk if you're willing to sacrifice CM but I doubt that you are. This would make you maybe a little too vulnerable against Crunch SDLuke if Jirachi dies.

TeaBag said:
Nasty Plot MixApe is normally hard pressed to 2HKOs Cresselia with Fire Blast
Click to expand...

+2 LO Fire Blast vs 252/96 Calm Cresselia = 65% - 77%
+2 LO Flamethrower vs same Cress = 52% - 61%

So yeah, any form of stat-up Infernape runs through this team. Fortunately, only 18% run NP and a negligible amount run Swords Dance. The easiest solution here would be to change your Cresselia to something with Psychic in the moveset without sacrificing Ice Beam but it's going to be difficult to do that without making yourself Pursuit bait (eg Psychic/Ice Beam/Toxic/Recovery move) or completely non-threatening (eg Psychic/Ice Beam/Reflect/Recovery move).

Good luck.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys, you've given me a lot to think about...

@CrazySouthpaw - If the Flame Orb gets Tricked to one of my opponent's Trickers they have to be just as weary as me to make sure they don't have their own Choice item Tricked back to something else. I try to make sure that I have one of my Trickers (or Zapdos) out when dealing with an enemy Trickster unless its late game.

@MetaKnie and Stauffen - If I change up U-Turn for Zen Headbutt then I could get trapped by enemy Magnezones easier.

I am thinking about opting for a Scarfed Wash Rotom over perhaps Zapdos or Cresselia, as that would help me deal with my Gyarados weak too.

@TeaBag - With the EVs I use Zapdos can Roar out Boah as it Subs unless there is a little hax on their part. Not to mention Suicune walls it pretty badly, especially with CM.

@SDS and Lee - Thanks for the calcs. This has really made me really reconsider what I need to do to make this team better.

I try to be careful around Spinners, either using Zapdos to threaten with a one or 2HKO or Tricking them something they wouldn't like.

I also might try Psychic over Ice Beam on Cressy, as I try to have at least two moves that hit most Dragons hard on every team I make and well LO Mences will not enjoy taking 22.5% every attacking turn and switching in on SR.

I really don't want to remove Cressy's Psycho Shifting abilities as I haven't seen any other Cresselia that could really stand up to Blissey, Ttar, Scizor, Weavile, etc. as well as this one can. Plus she works to absorb status if I Tricked the Flame Orb away. I might be a bit biased, but crippling/eliminating a number of your counters (especially ones in the top 20 most used) makes life considerably easier for this team, otherwise I'd have a slew of many more weaknesses.

@August - I have two checks for CM Jirachi. Obviously Zapdos handles Phazing, but once they lose the surprise factor I can go to Suicune to CM up with them. I have the advantage in that matchup then because I have Rest, and they don't have any recovery move at all usually. Coming in on Spikes and SR is a huge risk for 'Rachi and when its at like less than 50% health Blissey can handle it usually.

But yeah, when I get some time to ladder today or tomorrow I will make some revisions and tests.
 
MTI, might I direct you to my Jirachi revamp, where I calmly explain that SubCM Jirachi walks all the fuck over CM Suicune of any kind? For the record, without any SpA investment, even if Suicune is one CM up on Jirachi, it's still never breaking Jirachi's subs with one Surf. Furthermore, Rest isn't really all that useful when Jirachi outspeeds you and deals 28.22% - 33.66% with Thunderbolt, not to mention the fact that it can stall for crits or if worse comes to worse beat you with SDef drops from Psychic. CM Jirachi IS crippling your team whether you want it to or not. Furthermore, you've chosen the only spread of Blissey that actually loses to 80 SpA CMRachi, which is a VERY big mistake when you're running Stall. There's a reason that 252/252 Bold isn't the premiere spread anymore.

On the subject of EVs, the EVs for Jirachi seem arbitrary and useless. You've sacrificed the ability to outrun +1 Neutral Salamence and friends for a pittance of bonus stats in HP and Attack. Unless you can give me a reason that your stat spread is better than the standard 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe Jolly set, I highly suggest you change it back. Same with Zapdos. You're running a huge HP investment that really seems pointless, considering that Zapdos is a "go big or go home" Pokemon and investing in its HP halfway is really a waste. It's either walling stuff with 252/220/36 Bold or it's killing stuff with 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe. Anything in the middle just isn't effective. Oddly enough, same with Skarmory, which really doesn't get any tangible benefit from 40 SpD EVs that wouldn't be better off giving it an extra 11 points in its ever-important Defense.

I hate to say it, but it seems like you've pretty much discovered the basics of stall and put a stall team together without taking into account any of the things that threaten Stall, such as CM Jirachi (hell, CM anything grabs this team by the balls), Swords Dance Infernape, Tyraniboah, strong Tyranitar in general (DD gets a free boost on a bunch of stuff and then just rampages through your team), Rapid Spinners, enemy Entry Hazards, etc. This team looks a little bit like "my first stall" and to change it enough to salvage it would probably require going against the spirit of the team. There's a reason most stall teams end up looking like some permutation of Obistall. There are only so many viable ways to make a stall team, and this doesn't look like one of them. There are plenty of ways to abuse SR, but this one just doesn't cut it.
 
@ SDS - CM Jirachi isn't going to enjoy switching into Spikes and SR over and over.

Basic stall involves spinblocking, blah blah Rotom, but the thing is Ttar will massacre it with Pursuit regardless of what you really do, so I want my team to perform well against the metagame as a whole and not have some glaring weakness to a certain poké.

I've looked beyond basic stall to not instantly opt for using Rotom, which I found couldn't really fit well into the team and is easy to take out with Pursuiters, so Cressy has Psychic now. And I feel a bit more confident with it.

One of my philosophies is to look 10 steps ahead. People expect the counters and prepare for them, but I'm thinking further ahead than that. I mean how easy is it to kill Rapid Spinners? Zapdos has the ability to 1-2HKO all OU Rapid Spinners and Jirachi can Trick a Scarf to them, so why not force them to make a crucial decision point, so that I can pressure my opponent into sometimes messing up and then I can do what I want with little or no consequence. I like to create consequences for anything my opponent does.

I don't think of it like Jirachi vs. Suicune, but rather Jirachi vs. my whole team. As soon as I know its a Sub CM version the first time and I can get it out with a phazer I know to expect it. That is an instant mindgame to my opponent because they know that I expect it to be thrown in and they want to get it in with taking as little damage as possible. I only play Suicune vs. Jirachi if its a last ditch effort to try to kill it and not to mention Jirachi also hates getting its moves eaten up by Pressure.

Knowing your 1v1 matchups is important, but knowing your team synergy and keeping them alive long enough to serve their purposes is far more important. That's what Cresselia exactly does for the team. If practically anything gets burned they become easier to handle. Plus, threatening people with a burn forces people to switch. This in turn also lets me see more of my opponent's team if I haven't seen it already and/or forces them to take SR/Spike damage.

I do appreciate the feedback about killing Infernapes though, Psychic lets me hit Gyarados a little harder too, which helps a bit.

Edit: @CnTchtis - Rapid Spinners waste a moveslot for Spinning not to mention they are so few in number that they are easily handled. Once they switch out I can just lay down SR/Spikes again and they'll have to deal with that damage in addition to me knowing they have a Spinner.

That also forces them into doing a certain predictable situation (sending in a Spinner), which is very punishable to say the least.

Forcing your opponents to do certain things and punishing them for it is fundamental in checkers and pokémon.
 
You're missing the point that YOUR LONE PHAZER DIES HORRIBLY TO CM JIRACHI and that it comes in for free on the majority on your team. Jirachi doesn't have to "come in over and over", it just has to come in once and fuck your shit up from there. Cress can't touch it, Blissey can't touch it, Jirachi can't touch it, Suicune has issues touching it, and Skarm can't do anything except Whirlwind it after eating a huge Thunderbolt. You can't "look ten turns ahead" when in one turn you are fucked.

Basic stall involves spinblocking, blah blah Rotom, but the thing is Ttar will massacre it with Pursuit regardless of what you really do, so I want my team to perform well against the metagame as a whole and not have some glaring weakness to a certain poké.
Click to expand...

Because of course, you totally didn't have some glaring weakness to CM Jirachi (or CM Celebi, CM Raikou, the list really goes on), ANY boosting Infernape, most Tyranitar, Rapid Spinners, the list goes on.

why not force them to make a crucial decision point, so that I can pressure my opponent into sometimes messing up and then I can do what I want with little or no consequence.
Click to expand...

Counting on your opponent to "mess up" is really bad play and ensures that you will never win against competent players.
 
I don't count on them to always mess up, its just another perk of how I play this team.

How are Rapid Spinners a weakness if I have something prepared for them?

Jirachi and Infernape cannot be consistently be switching in taking residual damage or they will die. With Psychic on Cress this team should be able to deal with it. You're reading into way too much of 1v1 I think.
 
What part of THEY SWITCH IN ONCE AND COMPLETELY FUCKING DESTROY YOU don't you understand again? Jirachi NEVER has to switch out. It just has to come in, Calm Mind once, and annihilate your whole fucking team for free. THAT'S the point I'm trying to make, and it appears to be one that you are *missing*. Infernape can force out Blissey and Skarmory for free, and unless you have cajones the size of Texas and feel like probably losing Blissey and Skarmory, you are going to give it a free turn with which to stat up. Once it inevitably does so, you are BONED. Quit playing "10 turns from now" when it only takes six for Infernape to strategically kill absolutely everything in your team. Cresselia can help, but once again, Nasty Plot variants are killing you outright if you've been in for 2 turns (since Burn Orb fucks your shit up and is generally terrible whereas lefties is super awesome fun time) and Swords Dance variants really aren't having any trouble setting your poor Cresselia on fire either. There's also the semi-obvious "Tyranitar comes in on Zapdos and either murders your face off or gets a free Dragon Dance and murders off the face of something else" that you have yet to deal with. You're coming up with all these fake reasons that your team is good when it actually has giant holes in it that you seem to be loath to fix.

Also you seem to be assuming that 100% of the time you will have SR and 3 layers of Spikes up at any given time, when this just simply isn't the case. If that Jirachi is doing its job right, it will almost never get SR down because it's too busy flinching everything into submission. (hint: if Jirachi lays SR while it still has its scarf, you're doing it wrong) Also, Skarmory can find time to switch into a lot of stuff, but it's not guaranteed to get 3 layers of Spikes down, especially if it's trying to PHaze some junk or it needs to Roost.
 
I recommend you drop the subject, SDS. If MTI says it is not a problem, it is not a problem. I don't know why you're trying to convince him it is a threat when he is telling you it is not a problem. Respect the team maker.
 
Well, planning a whole team around Spikes and Stealth Rock without having a spin blocker is pretty ignorant. You're also so stubborn that you won't even use a Pokemon with Pursuit. So all in all, your own team dies to stall itself. Forretress can come in on Skarmory repetitively and set up itself and Rapid Spin all your hazards left on the field of play. Starmie can scare out Skarmory and Rapid Spin when Blissey or whoever comes into the field. So basically you could even run Rotom with Reflect if you're that query about Tyranitar, or just use Will-o-Wisp. Spikes, Stealth Rock and the burn taking into a account, it won't have but so many more * Pursuit * switchins left.

I think the idea of the team is flawed without the no brainier tools, such a as a Ghost type and even a potential Rapid Spinner. But if you want to continue being ignorant then that's your issue.
 
Really MTI should listen to the advice. This team is VERY CM Jirachi weak. Nothing stops it once it has a Sub+a CM. Another issue I see is LO Gengar. It is only touched by SR and Blissey can't do a thing to him. For both of these problems I recommend Bronzong. He can run EQ+Gyro Ball to keep both of them in check. But you are still MixApe weak so CS Heatran is a nice alternative.

Also how does this pass as a stall team at all? You have no insurance against "Last Pokemon" like CurseLax. You only have one phazer, no wish support, no anti spin, and you didn't bother to counter many threats at all. For example, just about any Tyranitar tears this team apart. Cress won't like a CB either.
 
I'd put some enough speed on Skarmoy to outspeed 92 speed CB Tar, so that can pretty much "check" that variant as well as DDTar that lack Fire Punch (But who really uses DDTar in this day and age?).

I'd also suggest putting on a Blissey spread that takes special hits better so you can feasibly beat CM Jirachi et al. You've got a rather sturdy physical wall lineup in Suicune, Zapdos and Skarmory so you're got plenty of choices to take physical hits. The only reason I can see for this spread is fear of CB Dugtrio but that's quite rare now and can be overcome with some smart scouting on your part.

The final suggestion I have is making room for a Spiritomb. I think you'd prefer Spiritomb to Rotom given it lacks a pursuit weakness. In my personal opinion, I would swap out Suicune for it since Suicune doesn't seem to really benefit your win condition much but then again, it's up to you.

Hopefully I helped
 
I'm not going to justify this with a series of rehashed arguments, but I am going to make the most obvious suggestion: Replace Cresselia with Rotom. I don't care which Rotom in particular, you just want any ONE of them to spin block and set up Reflect or WoW on Tyranitar. This solves your main problem (not all of them). Seriously, I run one of the most successful stall teams of all time (ranking below Obi's and a few others), and without a spin blocker your odds of success roll over and die when you let your Spiker perish and then you notice they were hiding Starmie or Forretress. And the other commenters are right, CM Sub Jirachi does give you problems.
 
Puggy said:
I'd put some enough speed on Skarmoy to outspeed 92 speed CB Tar, so that can pretty much "check" that variant as well as DDTar that lack Fire Punch (But who really uses DDTar in this day and age?).
Click to expand...

Half of the t-tars I've seen lately are DDtars saved for late game sweep -.- (and really efective in doin' so)


About this team, your zapdos is as CBTar pursuit weak as it is any rotom, so it's not really a good excuse to not make a room for it.

If you're so afraid of it, you can always run WOW+reflect, thus crippling any pursuiter AND being able to switch w/o taking too much damage (it may seem redundant but it's not, usually you'll be reflecting on the switch (because these days many people likes to switch tran into rotom expecting a flash fire boost) so worst case scenario, you'll be giving reflect support to your team). Besides, no one expects both moves on a same moveset, helping with the "being a step further" idea, and also giving a much needed free setup time against those crippled pursuiters (which also helps you being ahead).
 
The team is actually pretty good; it just requires lots of skill to use (and you finally started using Stealth Rock). For the Zapdos, make it specially defensive, so it has an easier time phazing Jirachi and wearing it down with Spikestacking. I don't see why it needs Speed EVs to outrun Mamoswine. Cresselia laughs at it.


Main problem seems to be SD Lucario. After a +2 Adamant LO Extremespeed has a 46.15% to OHKO Zapdos after SR damage, which is guaranteed in Sandstorm. Suicune has even more chanced of being OHKOed by Close Combat. Cresselia takes 74.32% - 87.84% from +2 Adamant LO Crunch, which is a guaranteed 2HKO unless Lucario is burnt before the first Crunch. Jirachi, Skarmory and Blissey have no hope. Once Lucario sets up a SD on Blissey (and that's easy), it's create a world of pain.

It's hard to find a way to effectively counter Lucario without dramatically changing the team. I would replace SR on Jirachi with Fire Punch. EVs can stay, as most Lucarios with Crunch are Adamant; the Jolly ones don't, so you don't need to worry about outspeeding Jolly Lucario without a scarf.

If you do this, replace Skarmory with Forretress. Have SR, Spikes, Rest and Gyro Ball. Rest gives it an instant heal with Blissey's Arometharepy, and you want Forretress alive to set up SpikeStacking. Keep Shed Shell (as you need a Spiker, and your team is now completely dependent on Forry). Gyro Ball is an attacking move. It's useful for DD Tyranitar, and Gengar if you can get Cresselia to absorb Trick each time, and have Gengar locked into Shadow Ball (or after it has killed a poke). No Rapid Spin, as the other moves are much more important. If you must Spin, run it instead of Gyro Ball, but I have found this to be ineffective late game. Forretress also always lures out the Spin-blocker of your opponent, meaning you can get a free turn of set up. If it's Gengar, that's a good time for Gyro Ball.
 
Alice said:
Half of the t-tars I've seen lately are DDtars saved for late game sweep -.- (and really efective in doin' so)
Click to expand...

According to the latest smogon statistics

| Tyranitar | Move | Dragon Dance | 26.5

So yeah, that's not exactly very common.

And if we' are going by personal experience, all teh Tars I see are leadTar or CB versions. I haven't seen a DD version for weeks.
 
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