OU Substitute Primarina (Revamp) [QC 2/2] [GP 1/1]

[Martin]

[SET]
name: Substitute + Calm Mind
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Scald
move 4: Moonblast
item: Leftovers
ability: Torrent
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 44 SpD / 136 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Thanks to its good bulk, defensive typing, and access to Calm Mind, Primarina is a potent balance breaker and a defensive asset versus attackers like Hydreigon, Keldeo, and Dragapult. Substitute is important to shield Primarina notably from Toxic, Leech Seed, Scald burns, and Knock Off, which lets it set up in the face of defensive Pokemon such as Seismitoad, Clefable, and non-Power Whip Ferrothorn. It also protects Primarina from Pokemon like Zeraora that can otherwise easily revenge kill it. The listed EVs aim to make the most of Substitute's utility, allowing Primarina's Substitute to survive a Moonblast from uninvested Clefable while being faster than Adamant Conkeldurr. The remaining 80 EVs are dumped into Defense to maximize Primarina's overall bulk, letting it barely survive Choice Band Dracovish’s Fishious Rend from full health.

Salazzle is an excellent partner for Primarina, as it can cripple defensive Pokemon like Toxapex with Toxic and turn them into setup bait for Primarina, which can consequently dismantle a lot of balance builds late-game if they lack an answer akin to Power Whip Ferrothorn. Physical tanks help to cover for Primarina's underwhelming physical bulk, with Hippowdon and Ferrothorn being noteworthy for their ability to switch into and passively pressure Zeraora. Similarly, Seismitoad and Gastrodon help to patch up defensive weak spots when facing Rotom-H and Dracovish. Ferrothorn in particular is a good partner due to its access to Spikes, which Primarina appreciates greatly as they pressure checks that lack reliable recovery, notably opposing Ferrothorn. Wallbreakers that can be taken advantage of by Hydreigon and Dragapult, such as Aegislash and Kyurem, benefit from Primarina's defensive utility, and it is useful to have Wish and Healing Wish users like Clefable and Jirachi as teammates to help ease the long-term impact of Primarina's lack of reliable recovery when checking such wallbreakers repeatedly.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Martin, 173240]]
- Quality checked by: [[Ruft, 295110]], [[Jordy, 395754]]
- Grammar checked by: [[Estronic, 240732]]

 

[Martin]

ok i think this is QC ready; I think I had the QC tag on instead of WIP by mistake before lol

 

[lydian]

not qc anymore, so only implement what u agree with, i was taking a quick read and 2 things seemed a bit off, so bop!

164 Speed is also an option to use Substitute before Mandibuzz can use Toxic or Knock Off.

not sure how useful this is because no one runs uninvested mandibuzz, you usually run enough for aegislash, so id just leave it at the speed for clef because 1, outspeeding mandibuzz that outspeeds aegislash would be speed creep, and 2, you can't even afford to have that many evs without missing out on the moonblast calc.

The remaining EVs are dumped into Defense to minimize the chance for unboosted Keldeo's Secret Sword to break Substitute.

i dont think this is a very relevant calc at all, i dont see why an unboosted keldeo would stay in on a primarina in the first place. and i cant find any relevant calc for the substitutes that the 80 defense change much, so i'd just mention that it helps with the physical bulk like in general, probably, instead of listing this specific calc as an example.

thats all i found from a quick skim read, analysis looks nice

 

[Martin]

not qc anymore, so only implement what u agree with, i was taking a quick read and 2 things seemed a bit off, so bop!

not sure how useful this is because no one runs uninvested mandibuzz, you usually run enough for aegislash, so id just leave it at the speed for clef because 1, outspeeding mandibuzz that outspeeds aegislash would be speed creep, and 2, you can't even afford to have that many evs without missing out on the moonblast calc.

i dont think this is a very relevant calc at all, i dont see why an unboosted keldeo would stay in on a primarina in the first place. and i cant find any relevant calc for the substitutes that the 80 defense change much, so i'd just mention that it helps with the physical bulk like in general, probably, instead of listing this specific calc as an example.

thats all i found from a quick skim read, analysis looks nice

Implemented both. The mandi thing was a brainfart and the keld thing was mostly just me justifying it to myself—just remembered sub goes up after keld attacks anyway

 

[Astra]

Not QC at all so take this with a grain of salt, but I might be worth mentioning that 80 Defense EVs allow Primarina to always live Dracovish's Fishious Rend from full (and I mean every since hit point you have):

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 80 Def Primarina: 307-362 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not sure if this is worth mentioning because even the slightest chip damage from hazards or something of the sort will turn it into a KO, though it does come in handy sometimes in my experience.

 

[Ruft]

things to remove in red, things to add in green, comments in blue (message me in case of color blindness)

[SET]
name: Substitute + Calm Mind
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Scald
move 4: Moonblast
item: Leftovers
ability: Torrent
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 44 SpD / 136 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Thanks to its good bulk, defensive typing, and access to Calm Mind, at is a potent balance breaker and a defensive asset versus attackers like Hydreigon, Keldeo and Dragapult. Substitute is important to shield Primarina from things like Toxic, Leech Seed, and Knock Off, which lets it boost in the face of defensive Pokemon such as Seismitoad, Clefable, and non-Power Whip Ferrothorn. It also protects Primarina from Pokemon like Zeraora that can otherwise easily revenge kill it. The listed EVs aim to make the most of this, allowing Primarina's Substitute to survive a Moonblast from uninvested Clefable while being faster than Adamant Conkeldurr. The remaining EVs are dumped into Defense to maximise Primarina's overall bulk, You can mention that it makes Primarina survive Choice Band Dracovish's Fishious Rend from full, like @Estronic pointed out. but the defense EVs can be moved into Special Attack if a little more firepower is desired, notably letting +1 Primarina a OHKO Gengar more than 50% of the time after Stealth Rock. This is not really worth mentioning.

Salazzle is an excellent partner for Primarina as it can cripple defensive Pokemon like Toxapex with Toxic, turning it them into setup bait for Primarina, which can consequently dismantle a lot of balance builds late game if they lack something akin to Power Whip Ferrothorn. This change clears up that it's helpful even if you don't face Toxapex; Toxic spread + Substitute synergizes very well in general. Physical tanks help to cover for Primarina's underwhelming physical bulk, with Hippowdon and Ferrothorn being notable for their ability to switch into and passively pressure Zeraora, It should be mentioned that Primarina greatly appreciates Ferrothorn's Spikes. while Dragapult, Gastrodon, and Seismitoad help to cover defensive holes versus Rotom-H and Dracovish. Dragapult doesn't like taking Discharge and can't switch into Dracovish. Wallbreakers that can be taken advantage of by Hydreigon and Dragapult, such as Aegislash and Kyurem, benefit from Primarina's defensive utility, and it's useful to have Wish and Healing Wish users like Clefable and Jirachi in the back to help ease the long-term impact of Primarina's lack of reliable recovery, letting you make repeated switches into such Pokemon without sacrificing sweeping potential later on. While I get what you're saying, I'd leave this last part out. It can give the wrong idea of Wish Clefable being able to salvage Primarina getting crippled by status for instance, which is something that should be avoided.

Good job, 1/2.

 

[Martin]

Not QC at all so take this with a grain of salt, but I might be worth mentioning that 80 Defense EVs allow Primarina to always live Dracovish's Fishious Rend from full (and I mean every since hit point you have):

252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Dracovish Fishious Rend (170 BP) vs. 248 HP / 80 Def Primarina: 307-362 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not sure if this is worth mentioning because even the slightest chip damage from hazards or something of the sort will turn it into a KO, though it does come in handy sometimes in my experience.

things to remove in red, things to add in green, comments in blue (message me in case of color blindness)

Good job, 1/2.

implemented these

 

[Jordy]

Make sure to stress the usefulness of Spikes a little more, punishing switches into Pokemon like Ferrothorn's very useful for Primarina. After several read throughs, I haven't been able to find anything else that's wrong or missing. Good job, 2/2.

 

[Astra]

add remove (comments)

swag

[SET]
name: Substitute + Calm Mind
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Scald
move 4: Moonblast
item: Leftovers
ability: Torrent
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 44 SpD / 136 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Thanks to its good bulk, defensive typing, and access to Calm Mind, Primarina is a potent balance breaker and a defensive asset versus attackers like Hydreigon, Keldeo, (AC) and Dragapult. Substitute is important to shield Primarina notably from things like Toxic, Leech Seed, and Knock Off (using 'things' to refer to something feel informal plus i don't really think there's anything else notable sub can shield, if they're others than just add them to the list), which lets it boost set up in the face of defensive Pokemon such as Seismitoad, Clefable, and non-Power Whip Ferrothorn. It also protects Primarina from Pokemon like Zeraora that can otherwise easily revenge kill it. The listed EVs aim to make the most of this (you should clarify a bit on what 'this' is, which is i'm assuming its ability to set up on some pokemon), allowing Primarina's Substitute to survive a Moonblast from uninvested Clefable while being faster than Adamant Conkeldurr. The remaining 80 EVs are dumped into Defense to maximize Primarina's overall bulk, letting it barely survive Choice Band Dracovish’s Fisheous Fishious Rend from full health.

Salazzle is an excellent partner for Primarina, (AC) as it can cripple defensive Pokemon like Toxapex with Toxic, (RC) turning and turn them into setup bait for Primarina, which can consequently dismantle a lot of balance builds late-game (AC) if they lack something an answer akin to Power Whip Ferrothorn. Physical tanks help to cover for Primarina's underwhelming physical bulk, (RC) with; (ASC) Hippowdon and Ferrothorn being are noteworthy for their ability to switch into and passively pressure Zeraora, while Seismitoad and Gastrodon are helpful to patch up defensive weak spots versus when facing Rotom-H and Dracovish. Ferrothorn in particular is a good partner due to its access to Spikes, which Primarina appreciates greatly for its ability to pressure checks that lack reliable recovery, notably including opposing Ferrothorn. Wallbreakers that can be taken advantage of by Hydreigon and Dragapult, such as Aegislash and Kyurem, benefit from Primarina's defensive utility, and it's it is useful to have Wish and Healing Wish users like Clefable and Jirachi in the back as teammates to help ease the long-term impact of Primarina's lack of reliable recovery when checking such Pokemon wallbreakers (i'm assuming this is what you're referring to, if not than fix it to clarify what you're talking about) repeatedly.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Martin, 173240]]
- Quality checked by: [[Ruft, 295110]], [[Jordy, 395754]]
- Grammar checked by: [[username1, userid1]]

1/1

 

[Martin]

add remove (comments)

swag

[SET]
name: Substitute + Calm Mind
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Calm Mind
move 3: Scald
move 4: Moonblast
item: Leftovers
ability: Torrent
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 44 SpD / 136 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Thanks to its good bulk, defensive typing, and access to Calm Mind, Primarina is a potent balance breaker and a defensive asset versus attackers like Hydreigon, Keldeo, (AC) and Dragapult. Substitute is important to shield Primarina notably from things like Toxic, Leech Seed, and Knock Off (using 'things' to refer to something feel informal plus i don't really think there's anything else notable sub can shield, if they're others than just add them to the list), which lets it boost set up in the face of defensive Pokemon such as Seismitoad, Clefable, and non-Power Whip Ferrothorn. It also protects Primarina from Pokemon like Zeraora that can otherwise easily revenge kill it. The listed EVs aim to make the most of this (you should clarify a bit on what 'this' is, which is i'm assuming its ability to set up on some pokemon), allowing Primarina's Substitute to survive a Moonblast from uninvested Clefable while being faster than Adamant Conkeldurr. The remaining 80 EVs are dumped into Defense to maximize Primarina's overall bulk, letting it barely survive Choice Band Dracovish’s Fisheous Fishious Rend from full health.

Salazzle is an excellent partner for Primarina, (AC) as it can cripple defensive Pokemon like Toxapex with Toxic, (RC) turning and turn them into setup bait for Primarina, which can consequently dismantle a lot of balance builds late-game (AC) if they lack something an answer akin to Power Whip Ferrothorn. Physical tanks help to cover for Primarina's underwhelming physical bulk, (RC) with; (ASC) Hippowdon and Ferrothorn being are noteworthy for their ability to switch into and passively pressure Zeraora, while Seismitoad and Gastrodon are helpful to patch up defensive weak spots versus when facing Rotom-H and Dracovish. Ferrothorn in particular is a good partner due to its access to Spikes, which Primarina appreciates greatly for its ability to pressure checks that lack reliable recovery, notably including opposing Ferrothorn. Wallbreakers that can be taken advantage of by Hydreigon and Dragapult, such as Aegislash and Kyurem, benefit from Primarina's defensive utility, and it's it is useful to have Wish and Healing Wish users like Clefable and Jirachi in the back as teammates to help ease the long-term impact of Primarina's lack of reliable recovery when checking such Pokemon wallbreakers (i'm assuming this is what you're referring to, if not than fix it to clarify what you're talking about) repeatedly.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Martin, 173240]]
- Quality checked by: [[Ruft, 295110]], [[Jordy, 395754]]
- Grammar checked by: [[username1, userid1]]

1/1
View attachment 245774

Implemented this. Re the hippowdon/ferrothorn change, I slightly altered the wording instead of following the changes in the check as I think the suggestion could easily be read as Gastrodon being a physical tank (which isn't strictly true imo, although it can take on some physical attackers like Zera/Vish):

Physical tanks help to cover for Primarina's underwhelming physical bulk, with Hippowdon and Ferrothorn being noteworthy for their ability to switch into and passively pressure Zeraora. Similarly, Seismitoad and Gastrodon help to patch up defensive weak spots when facing Rotom-H and Dracovish.

Is this OK? I'll mark as done once I get the all-clear.

 

[Astra]

that’s good yee

 

[Martin]

k this is ready for upload

edit: god i keep clicking the wrong tags !!!