Substitutions Overhaul

[Frosty]

I disagree with that. While a "IF Sub 1 activates THEN X" sub can usually be done on a different manner (or has dubious utility), there have been many times where a "IF X AND Y's first sub activated A1 THEN Z" sub saves a gameplan. If said sub, for example, has different possible action clauses (X on the first instance, Y on the second etc) and you want to activate your second sub regardless of the instance the first was activated, then subbing for sub activating is fair.

Also, as a chance sub, you can always put AND NOT sub 1 doesn't activate, have both nots cancel each other and reach the same result.

It is frustrating as fuck to know your opponents move, know how to counter it and no being able to do so because some obscure ruling about subs doesn't let you. If looping is a problem just add a "if the substitution ends up creating a loop, it is considered illegal. If more than one substitution creates the loop, the one from the player that ordered last is illegal. If both players ordered at the same time or if both substitutions were done by the same player, both are deemed illegal" general rule. Punish the ones that can't sub properly, the ones abusing subs. Don't punish the ones trying to use all the options available to get a good strategy going.

 

[Flamestrike]

I certainly don't mind having substitutions that react to other substitutions, I just want to make sure that, if we do do them, some clause is inserted to make sure they can't loop and/or negate Attack Substitutions.

 

[Geodude6]

How about we make the player ordering second the one whose infinite-loop-causing substitution gets negated. Not sure how we can formally word this though.

 

[Flamestrike]

We could just make it illegal to make such a substitution, as Frosty said.

 

[Frosty]

OK. I intend to send this proposal (presented above) to the booth. I figure that if we do this step-by-step we will get somewhere someday without being overwhelmed.

Proposal on substitutions interaction

On Substitutions Interaction

It is possible for a Substitution to interact with other substitutions, whether as a kind of chance clause, or as the Action Clause. So clauses like the below are acceptable:

If Magmortar's second substitution is to be activated THEN ...
If Chansey's first substitution activates for the second time THEN ...
If Rain Dance AND Eelektross's first substitution doesn't activate THEN ...'
If (...) THEN Disregard Aipom's first sub
If (...) THEN Rain Dance AND Replace Thunderbolt on the first sub with Thunder
If (...) THEN (...) AND Replace all instances of Hyper Voice with Surf, including on substitutions

Also, it is possible that two or more substitutions activate on a given situation, as long as there isn't any conflict between them. To give one example, consider the following actions:

Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor)
IF Protective/Evasive move THEN Redirect towards Mr. Mime
IF Rain Dance is up THEN Thunder

If, on Action 2, Rain is up and the pokemon uses a Protective/Evasive move, the first substitution activates and the second too and there isn't a conflict between them (it is logically possible for both to be applied on the same action). So, due to first sub, the attack is redirected to Mr. Mime and, due to the second sub, that attacks turns from a Sludge Bomb into a Thunder. In the end, in A2, said pokemon will use Thunder on Mr. Mime.

But if there is a conflict between the substitutions, then the player can specify which one has priority or, if they don't do so, the first one listed is applied. So, for example, consider the following actionset:

Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor)
IF P/E THEN Sludge Bomb towards Mr. Mime
IF Rain Dance is up THEN Thunder

In that case, the first sub calls specifically for Sludge Bomb on Mr. Mime, while the second calls for Thunder. Since it isn't possible for that pokemon to use Thunder and Sludge Bomb at the same time, the substitutions are mutually exclusive and the first one takes priority, ending with Sludge Bomb on Mr. Mime

Finally, if the substitution ends up creating a loop, it is considered illegal. If more than one substitution creates the loop, the one from the player that ordered last is illegal. If both players ordered at the same time or if both substitutions were done by the same player, both are deemed illegal.

If there is any part of that proposal that you feel warrants more discussion, let me know and I will remove it from the proposal sent to voting.

 

[Mulan15262]

If the orders were like this, what would the subs do:

Thunderbolt (Staraptor) * 3
If Staraptor is under the effects of a successful p/e move, redirect to Mr. Mime.
If Rain is up, then use Thunder (Staraptor).


If Staraptor uses Protect while it is raining on a2, would it use Thunder (Staraptor), Thunder (Mr. Mime), or Thunderbolt (Mr. Mime)?

 

[Avnomke]

Thunder (Mr. Mime)

 

[Mowtom]

I think it would use Thunderbolt (Mr. Mime)

 

[ff7hero]

I think that Thunder targeting either opponent is a valid interpretation.

Either the subs are gone through in order once, in which case the orders start as Thunderbolt (Staraptor), then change to Thunderbolt (Mr Mime) after the first sub before ending up with Thunder (Staraptor).

On the other hand, the subs could be modified by other subs. In this case, because Staraptor used Protect, the second sub was modified to "...Thunder (Mr Mime)"

In either case, the confusion could be avoided by using "If Rain is up, replace Thunderbolt with Thunder"

 

[Mulan15262]

Yes, it could be avoided, but we will inevitably encounter some situation like that, so we should prepare for it now.

And Thunderbolt targeting Mr. Mime could also be a valid interpretation since you can't target two pokemon at once with Thunder, so the first one has priority and you simply redirect to Mr. Mime. Or you could use Thunder and redirect it to Mr. Mime, making it Thunder (Mr. Mime). It could also be that you redirect to Mr. Mime first and then use Thunder (Staraptor), making it that.

 

[Its_A_Random]

In the event of two substitutions occurring the same time, the first substitution takes precedent and the second substitution is ignored. Has been that way for a long time iirc.

So Thunderbolt (Mr. Mime).

 

[Frosty]

The first sub says to target Mr. Mime and the second to target Staraptor. Since only one can be applied, the first has priority (so its thunderbolt (Mr. Mime)).

But if the sub were just "IF Rain is up THEN Thunder" you read it as "replace your move with Thunder" and it doesn't affect the target (keeps it the same). So it would thunder Mr. Mime.

 

[Frosty]

24h warning before booth.

 

[Geodude6]

Erm... What exactly are we voting on?

 

[Frosty]

whether or not the proposal below will be included on the handbook.

OK. I intend to send this proposal (presented above) to the booth. I figure that if we do this step-by-step we will get somewhere someday without being overwhelmed.

Proposal on substitutions interaction

On Substitutions Interaction

It is possible for a Substitution to interact with other substitutions, whether as a kind of chance clause, or as the Action Clause. So clauses like the below are acceptable:

If Magmortar's second substitution is to be activated THEN ...
If Chansey's first substitution activates for the second time THEN ...
If Rain Dance AND Eelektross's first substitution doesn't activate THEN ...'
If (...) THEN Disregard Aipom's first sub
If (...) THEN Rain Dance AND Replace Thunderbolt on the first sub with Thunder
If (...) THEN (...) AND Replace all instances of Hyper Voice with Surf, including on substitutions

Also, it is possible that two or more substitutions activate on a given situation, as long as there isn't any conflict between them. To give one example, consider the following actions:

Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor)
IF Protective/Evasive move THEN Redirect towards Mr. Mime
IF Rain Dance is up THEN Thunder

If, on Action 2, Rain is up and the pokemon uses a Protective/Evasive move, the first substitution activates and the second too and there isn't a conflict between them (it is logically possible for both to be applied on the same action). So, due to first sub, the attack is redirected to Mr. Mime and, due to the second sub, that attacks turns from a Sludge Bomb into a Thunder. In the end, in A2, said pokemon will use Thunder on Mr. Mime.

But if there is a conflict between the substitutions, then the player can specify which one has priority or, if they don't do so, the first one listed is applied. So, for example, consider the following actionset:

Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor)
IF P/E THEN Sludge Bomb towards Mr. Mime
IF Rain Dance is up THEN Thunder

In that case, the first sub calls specifically for Sludge Bomb on Mr. Mime, while the second calls for Thunder. Since it isn't possible for that pokemon to use Thunder and Sludge Bomb at the same time, the substitutions are mutually exclusive and the first one takes priority, ending with Sludge Bomb on Mr. Mime

Finally, if the substitution ends up creating a loop, it is considered illegal. If more than one substitution creates the loop, the one from the player that ordered last is illegal. If both players ordered at the same time or if both substitutions were done by the same player, both are deemed illegal.

If there is any part of that proposal that you feel warrants more discussion, let me know and I will remove it from the proposal sent to voting.

 

[Gerard]

My only question is how pushing subs work. I've had many battles were I need to use one move On the first available action but this can be protected, thus I have to push down both my action and my sub as to not make it exploitable. Would this be allowed with this? And if it would could you provide an example as to the wording of said sub?

 

[Frosty]

I...don't get what you want. Can you give an example?

 

[Frosty]

Gerard, can you please explain what you mean? So I can see how to incorporate on the proposal?

 

[Mulan15262]

I think he about making a sub push back actions, including the effects of any substitution that would otherwise take effect. For example, take these orders:

Iron Head * 3
If Tyranitar gets a crit then use Protect the next action and push back both the regular actions and other subs.
If Fire Blast burns, use Iron Defense.

For this if Charizard is slower and Fire Blast burns and crits a1, it would be using Iron Head - Protect - Iron Defense if the first sub pushes the second back, otherwise it would be Iron Head - Protect - Iron Head. Sure this isn't a good example for usefulness because you could just replace the second sub with "If burned, then use Iron Defense," but I think this gets what he is trying to say across.

 

[Gerard]

Ex: Gardevoir vs Toxicroak (Last action was Low Kick as it finished down an Aggron)
Gardevoir: Psychic - Psyshock - Psychic
* If Toxicroak uses a Poison Type Damaging Move A1 then use Encore & push actions
* If Toxicroak uses a Protective or Evasive move then use Calm Mind and push actions

If I wanted to push down my first sub so that it triggers even if Toxicroak uses Protect A1 (so that if he uses a Poison Type Damaging Move A2 then I would encore it in Protect) there would be no way that it could push it to A2.

 

[Frosty]

I am not sure if this is useful, but hey....you never know.

How about:

On Pushing back subs

It is also possible to push back and forward substitutions, but only those set to trigger on specific actions. It works strictly the same way as with usual actions. "Push back" will push subs meant to trigger on an action to the action immediately after it (A1->A2 and A2->A3).

Example:

Poison Tail - Sludge Bomb - Poison Tail
IF Substitute A1 THEN Snatch and push back actions and substitutions.
IF Protect A1 then Swords Dance

If the opponent uses substitute A1, the substitution activates and our pokemon uses Snatch A1. Since actions were pushed back, A1 becomes A2 and A2 becomes A3, so the following actions are Poison Tail - Sludge Bomb. Same will happen with the second sub, which will be triggered if Protect happens A2 instead of A1.

About the matter pay attention to these points:
- If the player says only "push back" or "push back actions" only actions are pushed back. If is said "push back substitutions" only substitutions are pushed back. To activate both actions and substitutions, you must specify both.
- The action clause of a substitution (second half) is not affected by "push back". Write your substitutions with that in mind.

something like that?

Also I think I will cut the proposal in pieces and vote all of them separately instead of voting the block. As there may be some aspects controvertial.

Also also, "Push Forward" (is on the handbook) makes no sense. If push forward is used then there will be no A3. Explaining better:

Sludge Bomb - Sludge Bomb - Poison Tail
IF Protect THEN Chill and push forward.

If the opponent uses Protect A1, our guy chills and pushes forward actions. Push Forward is described as "Push actions forward (this shifts each move in the order list one action to the left)". In that case A3 becomes A2 and A2 becomes A1. But this brings two problems:

a) Unless your sub is literally just (IF X THEN push forward), A1 already happened, so A2 is void, which means that only A3 will move positions. And really, if you are moving only A3, you can just say "AND use X on the following action".
b) If A3 becomes A2 the pokemon will struggle A3? Because there will be no action left. You will need to specify a move to use A3, but again: too much effort when you can just say "THEN begin action string X-Y-Z.

Seriously, push forward makes no sense. Can we just delete it?

 

[Mulan15262]

I think push forward means to take all prior actions and move them one action forward (so if a sub that causes it to Chill and push forward happens on a2, it will do what was specified for a2 on a1, and leave a3 alone). With that, it would not leave you with an action without any orders for, or at least no more than push back.

 

[Frosty]

Real Life>Frosty

Not putting stuff to voting, but rather adding another point of discussion.

Regarding Illegal Substitutions. We know that if a substitution calls for an illegal move, it is to be discarded. But what happens with said illegality is due to a move used on that same round? If the opponent forced the illegality?

For example, if you have:
Ampharos: Thunder - Thunderbolt - Thunder
IF Aerodactyl is flying up high THEN Thunder

Aerodactyl is faster and uses:

Aerodactyl: Torment - Fly - Fly

By A2, Ampharos is tormented and can't use Thunder, so the substitution called for an illegal action. But at the begining of the round the substitution was legal. "Abusable" but legal.

The handbook doesn't specify what happens in that case, which means that the general rule (illegal = discarded) is to be applied. But on everyday matches that is not the case, with everybody using "AND not taunted" "AND not under torment" "AND X isn't disabled" in every single sub.

Personally I feel that the general rule should be applied. First because I see no reason for the exception and second because a IF X AND not taunted AND not tormented AND not imprisoned AND not disabled AND ... sub gets long easily and this would make subs shorter by default, which I find nice. At least easier to ref/understand etc.

What do you guys think about it?

 

[Frosty]

96h warning before Booth (since those are kinda complicated stuff...)

Slate for the first three proposals is:

Yay
Nay
Return to Drawing Board as I don't like *fill in here*

Slate for the final proposal is:

If the substitution was made illegal after the round started, it will be ignored.
If the substitution was made illegal after the round started, it will call for Struggle

Proposal 1: Substitutions Interaction

On Substitutions Interaction

It is possible for a Substitution to interact with other substitutions, whether as a kind of chance clause, or as the Action Clause. So clauses like the below are acceptable:

If Magmortar's second substitution is to be activated THEN ...
If Chansey's first substitution activates for the second time THEN ...
If Rain Dance AND Eelektross's first substitution doesn't activate THEN ...'
If (...) THEN Disregard Aipom's first sub
If (...) THEN Rain Dance AND Replace Thunderbolt on the first sub with Thunder
If (...) THEN (...) AND Replace all instances of Hyper Voice with Surf, including on substitutions

Proposal 2: On more than one substitution activating

Also, it is possible that two or more substitutions activate on a given situation, as long as there isn't any conflict between them. To give one example, consider the following actions:

Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor)
IF Protective/Evasive move THEN Redirect towards Mr. Mime
IF Rain Dance is up THEN Thunder

If, on Action 2, Rain is up and the pokemon uses a Protective/Evasive move, the first substitution activates and the second too and there isn't a conflict between them (it is logically possible for both to be applied on the same action). So, due to first sub, the attack is redirected to Mr. Mime and, due to the second sub, that attacks turns from a Sludge Bomb into a Thunder. In the end, in A2, said pokemon will use Thunder on Mr. Mime.

But if there is a conflict between the substitutions, then the player can specify which one has priority or, if they don't do so, the first one listed is applied. So, for example, consider the following actionset:

Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor) - Sludge Bomb (Staraptor)
IF P/E THEN Sludge Bomb towards Mr. Mime
IF Rain Dance is up THEN Thunder

In that case, the first sub calls specifically for Sludge Bomb on Mr. Mime, while the second calls for Thunder. Since it isn't possible for that pokemon to use Thunder and Sludge Bomb at the same time, the substitutions are mutually exclusive and the first one takes priority, ending with Sludge Bomb on Mr. Mime

Finally, if the substitution ends up creating a loop, it is considered illegal. If more than one substitution creates the loop, the one from the player that ordered last is illegal. If both players ordered at the same time (example: both players order without seeing the other player's orders) or if both substitutions were done by the same player, both are deemed illegal.

Proposal 3: On pushing back substitutions

It is also possible to push back substitutions, but only those set to trigger on specific actions. It works strictly the same way as with usual actions. "Push back" will push subs meant to trigger on an action to the action immediately after it (A1->A2 and A2->A3).

Example:

Poison Tail - Sludge Bomb - Poison Tail
IF Substitute A1 THEN Snatch and push back actions and substitutions.
IF Protect A1 then Swords Dance

If the opponent uses substitute A1, the substitution activates and our pokemon uses Snatch A1. Since actions were pushed back, A1 becomes A2 and A2 becomes A3, so the following actions are Poison Tail - Sludge Bomb. Same will happen with the second sub, which will be triggered if Protect happens A2 instead of A1.

About the matter pay attention to these points:
- If the player says only "push back" or "push back actions" only actions are pushed back. If is said "push back substitutions" only substitutions are pushed back. To activate both actions and substitutions, you must specify both.
- The action clause of a substitution (second half) is not affected by "push back". Write your substitutions with that in mind.

Proposal 4: On Substitutions made illegal after the round started

(this is just my reasoning, it won't be included on the handbook like this)

Regarding Illegal Substitutions. We know that if a substitution calls for an illegal move, it is to be discarded. But what happens with said illegality is due to a move used on that same round? If the opponent forced the illegality?

For example, if you have:
Ampharos: Thunder - Thunderbolt - Thunder
IF Aerodactyl is flying up high THEN Thunder

Aerodactyl is faster and uses:

Aerodactyl: Torment - Fly - Fly

By A2, Ampharos is tormented and can't use Thunder, so the substitution called for an illegal action. But at the begining of the round the substitution was legal. "Abusable" but legal.

The handbook doesn't specify what happens in that case, which means that the general rule (illegal = discarded) is to be applied. But on everyday matches that is not the case, with everybody using "AND not taunted" "AND not under torment" "AND X isn't disabled" in every single sub.

Personally I feel that the general rule should be applied. First because I see no reason for the exception and second because a IF X AND not taunted AND not tormented AND not imprisoned AND not disabled AND ... sub gets long easily and this would make subs shorter by default, which I find nice. At least easier to ref/understand etc.

 

[Mulan15262]

For proposal 2, you should probably specify that if the players ordered in such a way that neither one could see the other's orders, it is treated the same way as if they ordered simultaneously.