Suggestions for OM Improvement

In the Rules + General Info thread, it says a good place to share OM ideas is in the PS Other Metas chat, as its pretty active and you'll get feedback and suggestions almost instantly. IDK if an entire thread dedicated to this is rly a good idea
I don't really have a time for chatrooms, when I play showdown its usually in the background of doing something else. Also chatrooms are a poor place to organize things in general, no counting that anyone who might have wanted to take on such a idea might not be on and the idea stays dead in the water.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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Going back to OM Room tours...
Something that I would personally enjoy a lot is UU OM Tours. Taking this idea off of Monotype, we could look at the usage list for the most popular metas (AG, BH, probably MnM, maybe AAA) and also use subjective knowledge (pokemon x may not have high usage, but it surely is too strong for a UU meta) to craft banlists that remove the best pokemon from a given meta. I think these would be a lot of fun, and are somewhat similar to banhappy tours in that it lets people find out about new threats for a given meta, which is particularly good since there are so many new options with the beginning of a new generation.
I'm not sure how coding would go about, but I know TI Bot recently was fitted with a way for custom banlists for room tours. Ideally, there could be a script that a mod could just type .tour uu bh and a tour would start with a predetermined banlist. I'm not sure how to go about that, but I'm sure Scpinion knows as the monotype room runs uu mono tours consistently.
In general, I think these are great, and regular PS room tours are the best avenue to explore these metagames. Room tours produce many battles in a short time period, which stimulates discussion and encourages people to build teams.

That said, I don't think we should promote these until the main metagames are thoroughly developed. The UU metas feed off interest in the main metas and build from the concepts developed there, so we need to have those established and stabilized before we enable/encourage a shift in focus.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
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In OM discord, can we get multiple rooms for the multiple popular OMs I.e. A BH room, a AAA room, a MnM room etc. It seems rather redundant that the discord is the same thing as the PS! OM room in being a hodgepodge of all the OMs.
 
In OM discord, can we get multiple rooms for the multiple popular OMs I.e. A BH room, a AAA room, a MnM room etc. It seems rather redundant that the discord is the same thing as the PS! OM room in being a hodgepodge of all the OMs.
More channels will be created, possibly metagame specific ones, once the server gets some activity.
no point in dividing the already little amount of users the server gets up even more, it would be even worse IMO.
 
In OM discord, can we get multiple rooms for the multiple popular OMs I.e. A BH room, a AAA room, a MnM room etc. It seems rather redundant that the discord is the same thing as the PS! OM room in being a hodgepodge of all the OMs.
Discord being the equivelent of OM chat?
We need more voice chat, then!

Also, with OMs being as difficult to keep fresh, and with most of them getting a lot of theorymonning before any PS implementation, I just have to wonder..

What if potential new OMs were implemented with theorized OPs/suspects already being banned? Then, as the meta settles, pokemon whom would have been suspects get tested for the chance to be added fully?

The function of this would be twofold- it would give a burgeoning meta new toys on the regular to keep folks both playing, as wellas providing a different frame of mind than standard metagames.
I know Smogon has a pretty standard formula for how to create balances in its metas, but OMs are inherently different- so why not seek the classic Smogon balance from a different direction?
 
Random Battle is far and away the most popular ladder on Showdown. And why wouldn't it be? You don't have to build a team, newer players have a chance to win via lucky matchups over skill, all Pokemon are available and balanced regardless of tiering, and its always easy to find a match. Over all my alts and ladder resets I've probably played 5,000-8,000 matches, and I wouldn't be on these forums if I wasn't lured to PS! by the Randoms ladder. What's more, RandBats can act as an effective gateway for standard play, as you can pick up general battle skills and even some metagame knowledge about which Pokemon can do what. IMO, it's one of the most important things that Showdown offers.

Why not do the same for OMs?

I realize that we're trying to keep a small number of ladders, especially since the rotation ladder idea was scrapped, but I think it would be really cool and positive for the community if we had a regularly rotating random battles ladder that uses the rulesets of existing OMs and maybe even some new ones. It would kind of fill the void of the seasonal ladders, which seem to be on hiatus (permanently?) and honestly they were kind of unpopular in the first place. Like the existing RandBats ladders, this OM Randoms ladder could act as a gateway to learning about OMs without the barrier of entry involved in researching and creating a team then braving the ladder. It wouldn't surprise me if some Monotype players started getting involved because they liked Monotype Randoms.

There are a few ways we could do this:
  1. Apply OM rules to existing RandBats: For AAA, Pokemon would just have random non-banned (viable?) abilities. For Mix and Mega, Pokemon would just have random Mega Stones. And so on. This option is very low effort and could lead to some hilarious combinations, so just for a lark it would work fine. However, it wouldn't do the actual OMs too many favors in educating people how the metagame truly works, as this format would inevitably creating such monstrosities as Garchompite Delibird or Prankster Unown. I think it would be better than nothing (I'd play the hell out of it) but there are better options for the long term. However, this version need not rely on exclusively PS! permaladders. Some OMs aren't super popular not because their ideas are bad, but because there's simply not a lot to discuss about them. Their thread drops off because people have nothing to talk about, and then people forget about it. Using the rulesets for Randoms might be a better approach--some I can think of off the top of my head are Monogen, Protean Palace and Haxmons. For a month (or whatever), having a custom-mechanics RandBats variant would be a lot of fun and maybe even revive the OMs they're based on.
  2. Take the Battle Factory approach: I think this would be pretty neat and wouldn't rely on a rotating ladder. Basically, normal Battle Factory randomly picks a pre-existing tier and fills your team with pre-defined Pokemon sets usable in that tier. OM Battle Factory would pick BH, MnM, AAA, Sketchmons, 1v1 and probably Monotype. Leaders and proven players from each OM would help out the project by contributing sets they think are viable/standard in the tier, and then Battle Factory would be able to construct a team using this set database. This is inevitably the best option for getting people into how OMs actually work, and it would even help existing OM players get into OMs they lack knowledge in. The downside is that this format is a lot less flexible and IMO lacks broader appeal. Battle Factory is not RandBats, and the latter is much more popular. The lack of team preview and level-based balancing are big draws that Battle Factory lacks. It would be good for education purposes and really neat for existing OM players, but I think less people would play it (including me). Definitely something to consider, though.
  3. Create custom RandBats: Similar to #2, this requires contributions from OM players, but on a bit of a bigger scale. Basically, it would use the same template as standard RandBats (no team preview, variable levels, sets generated from a list of options, even/static EVs), but the databanks that contain moves/items/abilities/whatever would be altered to fit the OM. Like RandBats and unlike Battle Factory, this approach would make every fully evolved Pokemon available, and the sets would reflect the communities best attempts to make the Pokemon usable, even if they typically aren't (ex: Salamencite Delibird w/ Return, Lucarionite Unown). In addition to proven sets (Blue Orb Golisopod), people would have to sit down and think "ok, this Pokemon sucks in [X OM] but what's the best we could do to make it work." Levels would also be adjusted accordingly: Regigigas normally has a very high level to adjust for its low usability in standard play, but in MnM, this obviously isn't the case and its level would be toned down. This certainly requires the most work but I also think it would be the most fun and the most widely played. If we got a team together dedicated to filling custom RandBats databanks to use on OM-based ladders, I'd love to contribute and I'm sure a lot of others would as well.
Aside from adding a few more pixels to the ladder selection tab, I think that pursuing an OM-based Random ladder is a no-downside boon for the community and for PS! itself.
 

EV

Ayo, sis
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  1. Take the Battle Factory approach: I think this would be pretty neat and wouldn't rely on a rotating ladder. Basically, normal Battle Factory randomly picks a pre-existing tier and fills your team with pre-defined Pokemon sets usable in that tier. OM Battle Factory would pick BH, MnM, AAA, Sketchmons, 1v1 and probably Monotype. Leaders and proven players from each OM would help out the project by contributing sets they think are viable/standard in the tier, and then Battle Factory would be able to construct a team using this set database. This is inevitably the best option for getting people into how OMs actually work, and it would even help existing OM players get into OMs they lack knowledge in. The downside is that this format is a lot less flexible and IMO lacks broader appeal. Battle Factory is not RandBats, and the latter is much more popular. The lack of team preview and level-based balancing are big draws that Battle Factory lacks. It would be good for education purposes and really neat for existing OM players, but I think less people would play it (including me). Definitely something to consider, though.
A push to create OMBF has been tried a few times. It's my favorite option and I would love to see it finally get off the ground.

It's also the best gateway to OMs because unlike options 1 and 2, it features actual "good" sets/strategies. Non-OM players should get a feel for how a real AAA or STABmons--pardon, STABmon's inferior replacement Sketchmons--team works and when they have a grasp of the metagame, can transition more easily into building and playing on their own.
 

Josh

=P
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I will come back and create om bf as long as several conditions are met

We already have a room on ps we could revive and adapt to this. OM bf sounds great, I said it last gen and I'll say it this gen.


Also, this should not happen ffor another month or two until the metas are more stable. Rn doing it wed have too much set turnaround.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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I'm not a huge fan of Monotype in an OM battle factory. The barrier to starting Monotype is much lower than other OMs (no new mechanics to learn) and we have more than enough samples to give people something to start from. I feel like people's experience would be negative b/c so much of it would come down to team matchup due to the random nature of the teams. Matchup isn't an issue in randbats b/c you expect it and accept it; while in standard Mono you should be building around matchup problems and any matchup problems you do have are your own fault.

I'm not opposed to the idea in general though.
 
Actually, I've already begun making this just earlier today on the Discord. The programming side of this would be pretty easy but the difficult part would be deciding on sets since it's only me and I don't play half these metas.

Though if people feel like this should wait until the metagames settle down then so be it.

e: If it's just BH Battle Factory then that's no problem. If anyone wants to help out then hmu on the discord server where we can talk about sets
 
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The Immortal

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Other Metas Leader
OM Battle Factory isn't something we, the leaders, can just do. It requires a coordinated effort from experts within the community. If said group does come up with BH Factory, and it has been properly tested on a third-party server where the sets are ironed out, I wouldn't be opposed to adding that final product to the main server. Yes, I said BH. BH is the main OM and is what you guys should focus on. Assuming that is success, we can decide to venture into other OMs. But for now, the efforts shouldn't be split up into the less popular OMs.

It seems a couple of people are trying to run this. wishes messaged me about BH Factory, and Scarfnaut as you can see above. You guys should form a group pm and invite the BH experts.
 

Josh

=P
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They can do it, I don't really havw the time nor want the responsibility of being in charge. Add me into the pm though I'll chip in.

Also shouldn't we at least start with bh mono ag factory? Aka the 3 biggest oms.
 

Megazard

The turtle moves
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id be willing to help out and have already helped with getting PU added, just not sure that ag is really /all that/ different from getting ubers BF. It adds mega ray, a few double team/swagger users, and the ability to get more than one of something which honestly seems like more of an issue to program around like in general you dont want to repeat certain mons or the same arc formes
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
I'd really like to see this happen; I can help contribute sets for several OMs, including BH, MnM & AAA, if that help is wanted.

Also, as brought up scpinion and megazard, Monotype and AG don't seem like ideal metas for an OM BF. In addition to the reasons they brought forward, it is just against the point of OM BF helping people learn the ropes of a given OM. Realistically, there would be very little learning from AG and Mono BFs.
Unfortunately, I think 1v1 is another meta that doesn't belong in a BF. Similar to AG & Mono, no one would really learn much. The bigger problem is that 1v1 is inherently incredibly matchup based and giving a player three random sets just exacerbates that problem. I agree with starting with BH, then working on other metas like MnM and AAA, and Sketch/STAB
 

drampa's grandpa

turtonator's gurtonator
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So there have been a couple things which have been bothering me recently. I'll see if I can properly articulate them here. Please note that none of this is intended as criticism... or well if it is its supposed to be constructive criticism.

1) Do you guys remember that Eevee General guy? Used to be a Room Owner and co-head of OMs? Of course you do. He's kind of hard to forget though I've tried. One of the things that I really liked about Eevee General and The Immortal as a team is that I thought they covered each others weaknesses pretty well. Namely, The Immortal, while present in the OM room, has never been the most outgoing member of it, while Eevee General was. Now obviously I don't expect Scpinion to BE Eevee General, except occasionally when I'm hallucinating from eating too many wild mushrooms, but I would appreciate it if the presence of the heads of the OM community was more felt in the room itself. By this I mean not just being on the userlist, but talking, discussing metas, whatever. I can't speak for anyone else, but it would make me feel more like my opinions and the opinions of the OM community were being heard on matters of policy, rather than you guys working off of what has been the dominant feeling in the past. Communities change and evolve, and policy should evolve with it, and if you're not an integral part of our community then how can you be properly equipped to deal with this change?

This isn't to say I don't think both of you are good leaders. I would just appreciate this little bit extra, if it's not too much trouble. If you have a reason why my concerns are being addressed in another way (through this thread perhaps, although my response there is perhaps more would still be nice) I would love to hear it.

2) Mix and Mega

So I'm still a little unclear (and have gotten conflicting answers) as to whose decision it was to not allow the unreleased mega stones in Mix and Mega, but I WILL speak for almost everyone and say that it's a bad decision. The stones are in the code, as seen by our ability to use them in BH. We know what they do. And not allowing them drives down interest in the metagame. I was speaking to a fairly new player today in the OM room, and they told me that they wanted to make a mnm team, but every time they found a "fun" stone it's banned, and they gave up (Proof: http://imgur.com/a/pOkNF). The community wants the stones, and while I understand the reasoning behind you not wanting them released (for anyone who doesn't know it's apparently that it would set a precedent that would let other oms use unreleased stuff), no other metagame loses as much from the lack of released material. AAA and Sketchmons would be mostly unchanged by the addition of Liquid Voice or Spectral Thief, while Mix and Mega loses... what half? of the mega stones that give it its purpose and its playability. If you need an angle to allow them consider this: these mega stones have been released in the past. They exist in the Pokemon games legally obtainable, just not transferable to the present generation. They HAVE been released. It's a little different from unreleased moves and Hidden Abilities, partially because once released those can't ever be unobtainable through pokebank.

This is something I think a lot of people will take up the cry on. If this should go in the Mix and Mega thread let me know, but I feel it's more of a policy decision and anyways I don't want to clog that thread up.

3)
I think there was another thing that was bothering me but I don't remember what it was so I'll finish with my plain ol' suggestion that doesn't ask for modifications of current policy / behavior :P

We get a LOT of people coming into the OM room going "I've got a meta idea!" We also have a lot of rejected meta ideas. Or metas that get accepted but just never get many plays (I'm not even talking Sketchmons levels of dead here, I'm talking like a couple hundred EVER). I feel like an official format of some sort to workshop om ideas, complete with battling would be great. So: Here's my suggestion;

  • The project takes place in 2 week cycles.
  • People submit meta ideas.
  • The project leader picks a couple, then the community votes on which idea they like most
  • The winning idea gets a small, quick forum tour (I'm imagining max 16 people, 3 day rounds)
  • At the end everybody gives feedback on the idea and the originator of the idea would have some evidence of it in practice to use if / when they submitted it.
I think it would also be cool to have OM mashups, or other weird variations of our standard oms as choices some weeks. But primarily I see it as something used to workshop new ideas.

The 2 main problems I see are
  1. Coding: Unless we found someone willing to code a new meta every 2 weeks (or multiple people) we would have to stick with metas that could be played on existing ladders.
  2. Playerbase: Would there be enough activity to sustain these tours? Would it take away from the possibility of other tours having enough people?
Hit me with your criticism.

Sorry this was long I've been putting off all of these for awhile.
Lata Alligatas
Drampa
 
Someone told me there's some sort of room-specific FAQ function that only room owners can create. I don't know if this is actually true, but it would be great if it was. We really need this, and for it to be updated on a regular basis. I feel like a significant portion of the OM chat is stuff like "What does CFZ mean?" or "Why doesn't 350 Cup have a ladder?" or "Why can't I use [insert unreleased stone here] in Mix and Mega?" Sometimes the !om function is enough to address these concerns, but in the above cases it is not and requires many laborious explanations.

Ideally, room staff members would have the ability to update it. For instance, there's a poll right now that includes the term "comaphaze," which is not immediately familiar to people who don't play certain OMs. Immediately, we got questions about it, and I expect to get many more. This is where the FAQ would come into play.

edit: right after I post this:

[22:33:43] MasterAmpharos: What's a CFZ?
 
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InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Someone told me there's some sort of room-specific FAQ function that only room owners can create. I don't know if this is actually true, but it would be great if it was. We really need this, and for it to be updated on a regular basis. I feel like a significant portion of the OM chat is stuff like "What does CFZ mean?" or "Why doesn't 350 Cup have a ladder?" or "Why can't I use [insert unreleased stone here] in Mix and Mega?" Sometimes the !om function is enough to address these concerns, but in the above cases it is not and requires many laborious explanations.

Ideally, room staff members would have the ability to update it. For instance, there's a poll right now that includes the term "comaphaze," which is not immediately familiar to people who don't play certain OMs. Immediately, we got questions about it, and I expect to get many more. This is where the FAQ would come into play.

edit: right after I post this:

[22:33:43] MasterAmpharos: What's a CFZ?
Kinda tying into this, I've often thought it might be cool to have a pastebin that explains all the acronyms/abbreviations/mashup words that are commonly used in the OM room (e.g. ks=king's shield, comaphaze=the use of comatose alongside sleep talk and phazing moves such as whirlwind and dragon tail). This might take a lot of effort to put ALL the common acronyms/abbreviations/mashup words together, but it would be a handy resource for new users who are lost. In my mind it would be linked in the roomintro or TIBot would have a .acronyms command that brings up the pb if this were to become a thing.
 
Someone told me there's some sort of room-specific FAQ function that only room owners can create. I don't know if this is actually true, but it would be great if it was.....

This is what happens when you type /roomfaq in the chat. At the moment Help is the only room I've found that actually uses it, and it's quite unclear for new users, but it's there. I typed "/roomfaq pwreset" and "/roomfaq bestpokemon" and then those messages were printed, so that's how it works. And yeah, it's RO-only.

One large downside is that you can't declare any of this with !roomfaq, which is unfortunate.
 
One thing that I think would make OM's better is by banning something entirely rather than partially. For instance, if arena trap is banned, rather than it being legal on Dugtrio, it should be banned entirely. The reasoning for this is that bans shouldn't, in my opinion, effect mechanics; you are prevented from bringing a Shadow Tag Pokemon to an OU match instead of Shadow Tag no longer being a possible ability on Gothitelle. Thus, doing stuff like preventing Pokemon from gaining Shift Gear in metagames such as Sketchmons but still allowing Pokemon that naturally get it to use it should really be prevented, as it's altering a mechanic (the sketch mechanic) instead of an actual ban. Allowing the natural Pokemon to have it is like banning Swift Swim on everything but Magikarp; balanced, yes, but nevertheless complex. Something like what inheritance does would also be fine.
I'd bring this up in the threads, but preventing this kind of complex ban is more of a policy decision either way, and there are just too many metagames that end up doing this.


 
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One thing that I think would make OM's better is by banning something entirely rather than partially. For instance, if arena trap is banned, rather than it being legal on Dugtrio, it should be banned entirely. The reasoning for this is that bans shouldn't, in my opinion, effect mechanics; you are prevented from bringing a Shadow Tag Pokemon to an OU match instead of Shadow Tag no longer being a possible ability on Gothitelle. Thus, doing stuff like preventing Pokemon from gaining Shift Gear in metagames such as Sketchmons but still allowing Pokemon that naturally get it to use it should really be prevented, as it's altering a mechanic (the sketch mechanic) instead of an actual ban. Allowing the natural Pokemon to have it is like banning Swift Swim on everything but Magikarp; balanced, yes, but nevertheless complex. Something like what inheritance does would also be fine.
I'd bring this up in the threads, but preventing this kind of complex ban is more of a policy decision either way, and there are just too many metagames that end up doing this.


While I like the idea of this as a possible banning policy (and it might prove to be better in the Arena Trap example), I don't think it's good for all of these cases. In the shift Gear example, you're nerfing Klinklang for no good reason, who otherwise has moderate usability. This also extends over to AAA... Speed Boost is banned there, but why should we let Yanmega and Sharpedo get punished by having a good, but not broken option? We should think about the possible repercussions about that policy before implementing it....
 
While I like the idea of this as a possible banning policy (and it might prove to be better in the Arena Trap example), I don't think it's good for all of these cases. In the shift Gear example, you're nerfing Klinklang for no good reason, who otherwise has moderate usability. This also extends over to AAA... Speed Boost is banned there, but why should we let Yanmega and Sharpedo get punished by having a good, but not broken option? We should think about the possible repercussions about that policy before implementing it....
While you are nerfing something that isn't broken, avoiding complex bans is more important. We banned shadow tag, not shadow tag on every pokemon bar gothita; we ban parental bond in aaa, not parental bond on everythign bar magikarp and feebas. Either shift gear is broken in principle, and we shouldn't be making exceptions, or it isn't, and we should be banning individual abusers.
 

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