Metagame Sun and Moon Doubles Discussion Thread

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deoxys speed

Approved by Kamikaze.

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This thread is to discuss everything that has been released so far pertaining to the Doubles OU metagame. This will not be the official thread it's just to tithe people over until the games drop and get some good discussion going. :]

Everything you need to know. Nothing about the plot will be spoiled unless you know click the links...

Individual Pokemon with their projected base stats and moves can be found here.

Doubles OU Initial Banlist

List of Allowed Megas
 
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My initial impressions were that so many things are so goddamn slow. That being said a lot of these ultrabeasts have some ridiculous stats and with redirection from healthy meta component jirachi or others (idk if other redirectors are coming to us but that'd be cool) these could be really, really threatening.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/drampa-discussion.3586485/
this is the hero tho, if its ability triggers in trick room it could be doing some real damage and has some respectable bulk to be able to survive until TR is up. Lots of cool mons tho, wish we had some faster things tho :/
 
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Dhelmise
Ghost/Grass
Abilities: Steelworker
HP: 70
Atk: 131
Def: 100
SpAtk: 86
SpDef: 90
Spe: 40

New Ability
Steelworker: Powers up Steel-type moves.

New Move

Anchor Shot: The user entangles the target with its anchor chain while attacking. The target becomes unable to flee. 100% accuracy [Steel] 80 BP, Physical. <-----this and gyro ball are the only physical steel attacks it has.

Phantom Force, Power Whip, Gyro/Anchor Shot sounds really good or replacing the steel move with EQ/Rock Slide to deal with Heatran/Zard better in TR. Offensive Gourgeist feelsgoodman.

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Oranguru
Normal/Psychic
Abilities: Inner Focus / Telepathy / Symbiosis
HP: 90
Atk: 60
Def: 80
SpAtk: 90
SpDef: 110
Spe: 60

Instruct: The user instructs the target to use the target's last move again. -- [Psychic]--, Status.

One of the few pokemon that I've seen that learns Trick Room and half of the stuff that has been released is 30-40 speed. The coolest thing about this however is the move Instruct which sounds amazing. Imagine stuff like Heatran using Eruption twice, taking 2 Zard-Y Heat Waves in 1 turn, 2 Kang Double-Edges, or attacks from some of the new crazy powerful slow mons that'll out speed this in TR. Good bulk as well paired with non ass abilities like Telepathy and Inner Focus, dunno what Symbiosis does.
 
super excited for the sleeping Koala and a fast Hail setter (especially since Ninetales learns Aurora Veil which is Reflect + Light Screen, when used in Hail). Instruct will be cool too, but I'm not sure it could also be a meme like Quash Sableye. It's better than Helping Hand by a lot, obviously, but Helping Hand always goes first and Instruct will be vastly more useful in Trick Room than outside of it. But even then you need to have what is being Instructed be pretty slow too.

The ultra beasts look utterly ridiculous. I think we're gonna need a much bigger banlist than before.

Other fun new things:
Several moves that have trapping as an effect
The new Grass/Fairy Amoonguss? It has this move: Strength Sap - "The user restores its HP by the same amount as the target's Attack stat. It also lowers the target's Attack stat." Jesus fuck.
It also learns Spotlight (as do Clefable and Starmie) which is a targeted Follow Me. ie I use spotlight on your mon... so its partner now attacks it instead. Fast starmie may be useful in Dubs now...
The cute bee learns a move that is both a base 90 special attack when it targets opponents and a heal pulse clone when used on partners (ie safe to use around redirection)
sea cucumber shuckle gets this move: Purify - The user heals the target's status condition. If the move succeeds, it also restores the user's own HP.
The toucan learns this: Beak Blast Flying/Phys/100/100 - The user first heats up its beak, and then it attacks the target. Making direct contact with the Pokemon while it's heating up its beak results in a burn. If that's actually a charge turn it's bad, but meh Power Herb is a thing. 100% burns are good, and it's strong enough to merit using.
Froslass learns Will-o-Wisp. Potentially a better Gengar? It has basically the same moves but also Ice STAB and Cursed Body (or Snow Cloak if Hail becomes really popular kek)
Don't forget we have a mini-Arceus in Silvally
Mantine got roost and +20 to HP. With how Special Attacking dubs can be, this mon could actually be useful as a long-term tailwind setter or wide guard user or even both
Swellow got a special attack boost and Hurricane to join the previous Boomburst. Scrappy Special Swellow could be neat.

Azumarill potentially is not learning Belly Drum and Aqua Jet via Egg Moves (irrelevant for us, sadly, but relevant for VGC if true)

BIBAREL LEARNS SWORDS DANCE AND AQUA JET
(oh and Flygon finally learns Dragon Dance)
 
Bughouse said:
It also learns Spotlight (as do Clefable and Starmie) which is a targeted Follow Me. ie I use spotlight on your mon... so its partner now attacks it instead. Fast starmie may be useful in Dubs now...
Click to expand...

It can't be used on a protecting partner, and you can't use it to force an opposing mon to attack its ally. It sounds like it's a move made for the new battle royale mode.

The toucan learns this: Beak Blast Flying/Phys/100/100 - The user first heats up its beak, and then it attacks the target. Making direct contact with the Pokemon while it's heating up its beak results in a burn. If that's actually a charge turn it's bad, but meh Power Herb is a thing. 100% burns are good, and it's strong enough to merit using.
Click to expand...

It's -3 priority like focus punch, though if the user gets hit you don't waste your attack.

Bughouse said:
Azumarill potentially is not learning Belly Drum and Aqua Jet via Egg Moves (irrelevant for us, sadly, but relevant for VGC if true)
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Confirmed false. There was an issue involving incense egg moves on that move list, but we're sure that marill still gets belly drum and aqua jet.



Might also be worth mentioning the new weather setters. Pelipper gets drizzle, gigalith gets sand stream, torkoal gets drought, and vanilluxe (and alolan ninetales) get snow warning. The latter three don't look that relevant, but pelipper looks amazing -- it has roost, hurricane, icy wind, tailwind, u-turn (!), and wide guard, and it doesn't get bodied by solar beam if it's caught in the wrong weather.

Gengar also loses levitate for some reason.
 
can we just talk about how they took tapu koko, which had potential to be amazing, and turned it into a FUCKING BIRD

why the FUCK does it have brave bird

it can't even ohko garchomp with dazzling gleam unless you're like modest specs

i'm mad
 
TheTraininator said:
Just wanted to put this little overlooked tidbit out there: instead of a 50% chance to boost defense by one stage per target hit, Diamond Storm now has a 50% chance to boost defense by two stages per target hit.

Feel free to tear your hair out.
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What I'd like to know is: does Diamond Storm still have a chance to boost per Pokémon hit? (i.e. each hit against double opponent has a chance to boost defence) Or was that taken out?
 
Death Phenomeno said:
What I'd like to know is: does Diamond Storm still have a chance to boost per Pokémon hit? (i.e. each hit against double opponent has a chance to boost defence) Or was that taken out?
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It should still have a chance to boost for each pokemon hit. Can't think of a reason why that will change.
 
*Theorymonning ahead*

After reading all the stats/movepools etc, it looks like we're gonna be seeing a big buff for TR. Mimikyu and Oranguru are godly TR setters, we got brand new sweepers like Crabominable and Xurkitree, a better Scrafty with Incineroar, and priority immunity from Tapu Lele.

All of the new fast mons besides Marshadow and Lele either lack really important moves (play rough lol) or just can't compare with the mons we already have (Pheromona vs Deo a). Kartana seems cool I guess.

That said, Pelipper rain or hailspam or some terrain team might end up being broken out of sheer firepower, but that doesn't seem too likely to me. Though, if status moves each get unique z-move effects, there's bound to be something broken in there.

I, for one, welcome our new TR overlords.
 
New items, beside Z-stones, that would change the game. Info stolen from Spoilers.

Adrenaline Orb (Landorus-T nerf-er)
Using it makes wild Pokémon more likely to call for help. If held by a Pokémon, it boosts Speed when intimidated. It can be used only once.

Terrain Wars

Terrain Extender
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It extends the duration of the terrain caused by the holder’s move or Ability.

Electric Seed
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It boosts Defense on Electric Terrain. It can only be used once.

Psychic Seed
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It boosts Sp. Def on Psychic Terrain. It can only be used once.

Misty Seed
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It boosts Sp. Def on Misty Terrain. It can only be used once.

Grassy Seed
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It boosts Defense on Grassy Terrain. It can only be used once.

I guess there was more to Terrain Wars than we originally thought.
 
Test Bot # said:
New items, beside Z-stones, that would change the game. Info stolen from Spoilers.

Adrenaline Orb (Landorus-T nerf-er)
Using it makes wild Pokémon more likely to call for help. If held by a Pokémon, it boosts Speed when intimidated. It can be used only once.

Terrain Wars

Terrain Extender
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It extends the duration of the terrain caused by the holder’s move or Ability.

Electric Seed
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It boosts Defense on Electric Terrain. It can only be used once.

Psychic Seed
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It boosts Sp. Def on Psychic Terrain. It can only be used once.

Misty Seed
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It boosts Sp. Def on Misty Terrain. It can only be used once.

Grassy Seed
An item to be held by a Pokémon. It boosts Defense on Grassy Terrain. It can only be used once.

I guess there was more to Terrain Wars than we originally thought.
Click to expand...

Using the statements above as reference, I made some analysis on the Island Deities. TBH, I believe they all have the capability to make an incredible impact in the SuMo meta-game (except Tapa Lele). Feel free to agree or disagree.

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Tapa Bulu @ Tapunium Z, Grassy Seed, or Sitrus Berry (Grass / Fairy)
Ability: Grassy Surge (automatic Grassy Terrain)
EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Nature’s Madness (Guardian of Alola) or Filler move
- Protect
- Filler move

Filler moves:
  • Damaging moves: Superpower / Megahorn / Zen Headbutt / Rock Slide or Stone Edge
  • Status moves: Taunt, Disable
HP: 70
Atk: 130
Def: 115
SpAtk: 85
SpDef: 95
Spe: 75
Grassy Terrain:
  • Restores grounded mons’ HP by 1/16.
  • Boosts the power of Grass-type moves by 50%.
  • Earthquake’s damage is halved.
The typing, movepool, and stats aren’t too bad. The niche for Tapu Bulu is its Wood Hammer, which is tremendously powerful. It also has nice selection of filler moves, most notably allowing it to counter Kang, Amoonguss, and in general Fire-types. However, it will require speed control to use it at its utmost. Nature’s Madness (aka Super Fang) is a requirement to use its Z-move, Guardian of Alola, which reduces the target's HP by 75%. Grassy Seed (noted above) is an alternative item that can be used, although it will replace its Z-move and may disappear if another Terrain activates (unconfirmed). Otherwise, Sitrus Berry would do it more justice.

375px-Tapu_Fini.png


Tapa Fini @ Tapunium Z, Misty Seed, or Life Orb (Water / Fairy)
Ability: Misty Surge (automatic Misty Terrain)
EVs: 124 HP / 252 Spa / 132 Spe
Modest Nature
- Muddy Water or Hydro Pump (Scald is you’re a wimp)
- Nature’s Madness (Guardian of Alola) or Dazzling Gleam (Moonblast is an option)
- Protect
- Filler move

Filler moves:
  • Damaging moves: Ice Beam (Hail teams can use Blizzard) / Shadow Ball
  • Status moves: Taunt / Calm Mind
HP: 70
Atk: 75
Def: 115
SpAtk: 95
SpDef: 130
Spe: 85

Misty Terrain:
  • Prevent grounded mons from being status-ed. (This includes mons being confused.)
    • Return of Swagger?
  • Dragon-type moves are halved.
In comparison to Tapa Bulu, Tapa Fini has a better defensive typing and stats. Thanks to its better speed, it’s free to use Modest nature and even Life Orb for further damage output. It also has a wide selection of spread moves. If you feel like Wide Guard is an issue, the spread moves’ single-targeting alternatives works as well. Otherwise, Shadow Ball may help Tapa Fini against Aegislash. For the matter of other items, Misty Seed can be used to boosts its Sp. Def on Misty Terrain, although it may disappear if another Terrain activates (unconfirmed). I already talked about Tapunium Z and will not talk about it again.

375px-Tapu_Koko.png


Tapa Koko @ Tapunium Z, Electric Seed, or Choice Scarf (Electric / Fairy)
Ability: Electric Surge (automatic Electric Terrain)
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Nature’s Madness (Guardian of Alola) or Filler move
- Protect or U-turn
- Filler move

Filler moves:
  • Damaging moves: Brave Bird / Steel Wing
  • Status moves: Taunt / Thunder Wave
HP: 70
Atk: 115
Def: 85
SpAtk: 95
SpDef: 75
Spe: 130

Electric Terrain:
  • Prevents mons from sleeping.
  • Boosts the power of Electric-type moves by 50%.
WHAT IS THIS MONSTER? Tapa Koko’s insane typing and stats allows it to invest in Adamant Nature while still outspeeding LO Thundurus. If you don’t mind using its Z-move, Guardian of Alola, then it can Scarf itself (w/ U-turn) and invest more to its bulk. In addition, THIS (GOOD) SHIT get Brave Bird and Steel Wing. (It is like all the Tapa’s have a counter to Mega Diancie.) Otherwise, it can use Thunder Wave against its walls, allowing its partners to take care of them. For the matter of other items, Electric Seed can be used to boost its Def.

375px-Tapu_Lele.png


Tapa Lele @ Tapunium Z, Psychic Seed, or (Psychic / Fairy)
Ability: Psychic Surge (automatic Psychic Terrain)
EVs:108 HP / 252 Atk / 148 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic or Psyshock
- Nature’s Madness (Guardian of Alola) or Dazzling Gleam (Moonblast is an option)
- Protect
- Filler move

Filler moves:
  • Damaging moves: Shadow Ball / Focus Blast
  • Status moves: Taunt / Calm Mind
HP: 70
Atk: 85
Def: 75
SpAtk: 130
SpDef: 115
Spe: 95

Psychic Terrain:
  • Prevents priority moves from being used.
  • Boosts the power of Psychic-type moves by 50%.
To be honest, Tapa Lele is like a lesser Mega Gardevoir w/ a niche in activating Psychic Terrain. And although it may use Psychic Seed for additional bulk, it’s too bad that it doesn’t get Trick Room. I’m sleepy now, so I my analysis ends here.

Edit: Guardian of Alola only removes 75% of the opponent's HP according to recent sources.
 
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Looks like nobody's said anything about Magearna yet.

Magearna
Steel/Fairy
Abilities: Soul Heart / Soul Heart / Soul Heart
HP: 80
Atk: 95
Def: 115
SpAtk: 130
SpDef: 115
Spe: 65

Super hyped for this mon. Good lord, where do I even start? Gamefreak blessed Magearna with a fantastic typing, ability, movepool and stats. Getting TR with Magearna's speed tier and special attack (coupled with a fairy-type Draco Meteor) immediately makes it stand out as a strong offensive TR setter. And unlike Garde or Hoopa-U, this can actually take a hit or two, freely switching into mons like Kanga, Diance, and the dark-types that generally check TR archetypes. Its movepool gives it a degree of unpredictability, with some gems like Aura Sphere, Pain Split, Calm Mind, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball, Explosion, Volt Switch, Thunder Wave and Swagger. Did I mention Fleur Cannon? Yeah, this definitely looks like it'll be tier-1.5 at least.
 
Can we discuss teambuilding and such here? I want to get into VGC this year and looking into a Metagross + Hariyama core so far, but don't know where to go from there thanks to the presence of new pokemon/moves/etc.
 
Riah said:
Can we discuss teambuilding and such here? I want to get into VGC this year and looking into a Metagross + Hariyama core so far, but don't know where to go from there thanks to the presence of new pokemon/moves/etc.
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If you want to talk about VGC, then talk it over in the VGC sub-forum, not in the Smogon Doubles one.
 
Only 99 new mons added this gen (including alolan forms), probably the least expansive out of all the transitions. I don't appreciate some of the nerfs, either (they nerfed everything that is good about paralysis and did not address the main issue (FPs); Gale Wings nerf (rip talonflame)).

The legendaries are going to shake the meta. Test Bot covered the Tapus, but I am particularly excited for Bulu. Tapu Bulu would be a saving grace to all the grounded mons susceptible to Landotrus-T's Earthquake. Tapu Bulu itself can pretty much switch into Landorus-T's moves with impunity, as it essentially quad resists EQ, resists Superpower & Knock Off, and only take neutral damage to U-turn and Rock Slide. Will Sludge Bomb Lando-T become a thing? Who knows. It's also a nice check to Azumarill, being faster and resisting Aqua Jet + Knock Off. With Grass Terrain boost, Wood Hammer is effectively a Grass-type V-create with recoil instead of stat drops! Even after an Intimidate, Adamant Bulu's Wood Hammer is scraping off 70% min from Landorus-T, and it inflicts 38% min to Kyurem-B lmao. It also has good coverage to address Fire-types with Stone Edge, Rock Slide, and Superpower. Koko has an amazing Speed tier with a free boost in its Electric STAB. It also possesses Brave Bird; with LO it can easily 2HKO Amoonguss with Brave Bird :d

Xurktree, Buzzwole, & Kartana seem to me the most formidable Ultra Beasts. Insane offense with Beast Mode to further ramp them up in power with each KO x_x. Worth noting that Kartana is a solid check to Mega Diancie, although I don't know how well it would take Earth Powers and Moonblasts with its abysmal 59 HP / 31 SpD.

Marshadow has the golden Ghost + Fighting combo with an actually stellar physical Ghost move with excellent movepool coverage. PLUS Technician Shadow Sneak xd. Magearna also have a strong Fairy/Steel typing with great stat distribution and amazing movepool (Trick Room, Fleur Cannon) and an ability that is Beast Mode on steroids.

Outside of the legendaries, it's hard for me to predict which new mons would actually stand out. There are quite a few Wide Guard users iirc, so we don't have to always rely on Aegislash for spread protection any more. Incineroar has Fake Out + Intimidate, so it may compete with Scrafty as a TR supporter, although Scrafty is a lot bulkier and isn't weak to Quake Slide. Alolan Raichu may be a powerful cleaner late game with Electric Terrain doubling its Speed and boosting its STAB, only susceptible to Shadow Sneaks & Sucker Punches. Vikavolt is better than Xurkitree as a TR sweeper (lower Speed), but otherwise Xurkitree is better overall. The only advantage is Vikavolt's EQ immunity thanks to levitate. Belly Drum Kommo-O is also intriguing... can get a free speed boost with Adrenaline Orb, too, if Lando-T ever show its ugly face.

I don't think the new weather users would make weather more prevalent. The pre-existing weather users are arguably better than the new ones (although Pelipper may usurp Politoed as a Rain inducer). We may see more Terrains than weather as field condition, imo.
 
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Pocket said:
Marshadow has the golden Ghost + Fighting combo with an actually stellar physical Ghost move with excellent movepool coverage. PLUS Technician Shadow Sneak xd.
Click to expand...

Marshadow's move, Spectral Thief, "steals the target's stat boosts (not reduction), and then attacks". However, I do not know whether the move's secondary effect only succeeds if the opposing mon used a stat-boosting move. Hopefully, it activates for ability-boosts, such as Competitive and Beast Boost, as well. If it can, I'm sure Marshadow will become a very influential mon. Of course, Pheromosa (Beauty) is only UB that can outspeed it.

There is another probable issue with Spectral Thief. The description also states that "the user hides in the target's shadow". I assume that this attack has the same mechanism as Shadow Force. I really wonder if the target is able to switch out or not, and if the move breaks through Protect as Shadow Force does. I have my fingers crossed.
 
Well if Spectral Thief ends up being shit, Marshadow always have Technician Shadow Punch xd

Bughouse brought up Spotlight, which is an interesting twist to redirection. Unlike Follow Me, the user does not need to take damage for the partner (assuming the target of Spotlight is one of the opponent), but on the other hand it can only redirect a single opponent (b/c you can't redirect the move of the Spotlight target to itself). Even with Spotlight, I don't see Shiinotic beating Amoonguss, since its raw defensive stats are lower than Amoonguss, although it does get a nifty Dragon immunity and Dark resistance.

Are there any new Follow Me / Rage Powder users? Nothing is more meta-defining than a solid redirector imho.
 
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Test Bot # said:
Marshadow's move, Spectral Thief, "steals the target's stat boosts (not reduction), and then attacks". However, I do not know whether the move's secondary effect only succeeds if the opposing mon used a stat-boosting move. Hopefully, it activates for ability-boosts, such as Competitive and Beast Boost, as well. If it can, I'm sure Marshadow will become a very influential mon. Of course, Pheromosa (Beauty) is only UB that can outspeed it.

There is another probable issue with Spectral Thief. The description also states that "the user hides in the target's shadow". I assume that this attack has the same mechanism as Shadow Force. I really wonder if the target is able to switch out or not, and if the move breaks through Protect as Shadow Force does. I have my fingers crossed.
Click to expand...

Nope! There was a video by Kaphotics (unfortunately it was taken down) that showed Marshadow stealing the boosts and attacking within the same turn.
 
thots/some questions

There aren't that many threats that require you to run 1-2 mons to prevent them from rolling over your team this gen and the ones that will be centralizing(ultra beasts and tapu guys only because of their abilities tbh) don't have well distributed stats and great move pools like Mega-Salamence, Mega-Kang, Lando etc. Magearna and Marshadow are definitely going to be the strongest mons this gen in doubles but they're not getting released right away ://

Terrains are like a new weather and will be extremely important to control. I don't think teams will be built around it like weather teams now(or maybe they will?) but denying your opponent from reaping the benefits of the terrain they are using will be a necessity in teambuilding imo.

Z-Moves are like better gems, work with support moves, and have special perks so that's cool :p Does anybody know if you can use them when you want or are they like gems? example: if you have a fire gem the first fire attack you go for it consumes the gem, are Z-Moves also like that? Also I heard they can't be knocked off so are they like Mega Stones? Once you use the Z-Move does it disappear, I want to know because Kyle mentioned on Discord how Hoopa could use a Z-Move, lose it's crystal and then steal an item possibly even another Z Crystal. Also Z-Moves breaking protect is crazy but not being able to do 100% of the damage is a double-edged sword imo. It's nice for faster mons that'll be able to break protect first so you can double into something to guarantee a KO but will hurt slower mons that'll have to rely more on prediction to get more out of their Z-move.

Overall not looking forward to playing Mega Mence, Skymin, and Z-Belly Drum Azu but everything else is gr8.
 
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