+3 BAP is our solution for 1.5x
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Data Sun & Moon Omnibus Information Thread
- Thread starter Its_A_Random
- Start date
You know, I was actually thinking about this while in bed this morning and thought up of an idea to solve the problem with the current effect's interaction with combos and Z-Moves:
Capping the boost from Water Bubble's BAP doubling to +10 BAP.
I mean 1.5× BAP can be a more elegant solution but this way, we can get the 18 BAP Liquidation and 8 BAP Bubble that makes Araquanid great without making combinations and Hydro Vortex have asdf BAP though they will still be potent with nothing hitting above 35 BAP.
Thoughts? (Likes can count as agreeing thoughts)
Capping the boost from Water Bubble's BAP doubling to +10 BAP.
I mean 1.5× BAP can be a more elegant solution but this way, we can get the 18 BAP Liquidation and 8 BAP Bubble that makes Araquanid great without making combinations and Hydro Vortex have asdf BAP though they will still be potent with nothing hitting above 35 BAP.
Thoughts? (Likes can count as agreeing thoughts)
Geodude6
Look at my shiny CT!
Ehh. Still not a huge fan, but I guess that could work.
Changing the subject: What do people think of making RKS System increase Silvally's Atk/Def/SpA/SpD by 1 rank each, similarly to what we do for Multitype? Not saying we should do this because of Multitype (Arceus is not precedent for anything), but because Silvally got hardcore trolled by the stat system and even with R4 stats Silvally will still be only okay.
Changing the subject: What do people think of making RKS System increase Silvally's Atk/Def/SpA/SpD by 1 rank each, similarly to what we do for Multitype? Not saying we should do this because of Multitype (Arceus is not precedent for anything), but because Silvally got hardcore trolled by the stat system and even with R4 stats Silvally will still be only okay.
I strongly disagree with this idea. Silvally is a Pokemon that has enough offensive coverage (for anyone who missed it [DO NOT READ if you're avoiding spoilers like I {for the most part} am], nearly every single type's attack with <90 BP) and movepool goodies (Imprison, two forms of Self-Switching attacks, etc) to function just fine without this buff.
Although 100/3/3/3/3/95 (or more likely 100/4/3/3/2/95) isn't what it used to be, I see Silvally's low ranks as a balancing factor. Silvally is a Pokemon with quite frankly unprecedented versatility; It can be tailored to become any type you need for your team, and/or be used to patch up any poor matchup you have after seeing your opponent's lineup. This alone has no equivalent that we can use for guidelines.
Coupling the above points with the fact that Silvally will most likely be available to anyone and everyone (although hopefully after a TLR) makes this uncharted territory to say the least. Even alluding to a comparison with Arceus is completely ridiculous in my opinion, as Arceus will, realistically, never have more than one of its species in circulation, and is also likely to be banned from any serious type of fight. Even if I'm overestimating Silvally, I would still like to err on the side of caution with this decision.
However, as much as I dislike this Pokemon from a design standpoint, I don't believe that it should be completely forsaken. I do feel that its unboosted stats are enough, given the other parts of Silvally's whole, but if a buff is truely necessary, I'll throw my suggestion in for consideration. All that I feel should be done is an increase to Silvally's Attack by one rank, via RKS System, and if absolutely needed an increase to Special Attack as well. Silvally's other scores should be left to be decided upon after we see how this thing affects the metagame, in my opinion.
Today on the "That's Bull!" corner: Dark-types are immune to Prankster-boosted status moves. This includes: Attacking moves called by a non-damaging move from a Prankster Pokémon, and moves reflected back at it by a Prankster Magic Coat, and... yeah.
I am legitimately floating the idea of making Prankster a Toggle Ability as a result of this Sableye-buffing discovery (I can't believe I am saying this).
Also did some sig item updates (and some other minor updates). Still have some to do and I did introduce a new sig item because something had to evolve by knowing Stomp as a move...
But yeah. Holy crap.
I am legitimately floating the idea of making Prankster a Toggle Ability as a result of this Sableye-buffing discovery (I can't believe I am saying this).
Also did some sig item updates (and some other minor updates). Still have some to do and I did introduce a new sig item because something had to evolve by knowing Stomp as a move...
But yeah. Holy crap.
The issue here is that there doesn't need to be a "solution" here. It feels like people are immediately trying to take grasp of the steering wheel and make sure Gen7 is balanced. Why not keep it as close to in-game as possible and then balance from there? Protean and Parental Bond were extremely broken at the start of Gen6, and both were caught and nerfed shortly afterwards. In my opinion, let's keep as close to in-game precedence as possible and balance from there. The reason we don't do everything the same was as in-game is because they have been previously nerfed and edited. Let the gen play out and nerf/buff as needed.
If I may change the topic, I would like to propose an alternate buff to Solar Ray, with regards to the Yungoos family:
A signature item is supposed to be better than a universal held item. As it stands, Solar Ray's boost is nearly worthless on Yungoos/Gumshoos. It is outclassed in the STAB department by Silk Scarf, regardless of what move Yungoos/Gumshoos uses; outclassed by Expert Belt in cases where you wish to use Super-Effective moves (aside from Crunch, but we'll get to that); and given a run for its money by Razor Fang. On top of this, Yungoos/Gumshoos only learn two moves boosted by Strong Jaw, making the current boost a little bit trivial.
My proposed buff retains the standard ability enhancement of similar Signature Items by powering up Stakeout, the 'Goos' signature ability. It gives the two a greater degree of matchup control, which I believe was what Stakeout was intended by GameFreak for, by punishing all forms of switching as well as discouraging "chicken dancing". Obviously it would need a bit of fine-tuning, and the wording isn't nearly my best, but I think it would ultimately be a better choice for the item's viability. Any opinions are welcome.
Solar Ray | Item Type: Signature | Cost: 8 CC | Affected Pokemon: Eevee, Espeon, Riolu, Lucario, Yungoos, Gumshoos, Rockruff, Lycanroc-D, Fomantis, Lurantis | Max Uses Per Match: - | Trigger: N/A | Nat. Gift Type: N/A | Nat. Gift BAP: N/A
The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song). Morning Sun will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Triggers Justified and Steadfast once upon sendout. Increases the BAP boost from Strong Jaw by two (2). Sand Rush and Leaf Guard are always active. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.
The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song). Morning Sun will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Triggers Justified and Steadfast once upon sendout. Increases the BAP boost from Strong Jaw by two (2). Sand Rush and Leaf Guard are always active. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.
Solar Ray | Item Type: Signature | Cost: 8 CC | Affected Pokemon: Eevee, Espeon, Riolu, Lucario, Yungoos, Gumshoos, Rockruff, Lycanroc-D, Fomantis, Lurantis | Max Uses Per Match: - | Trigger: N/A | Nat. Gift Type: N/A | Nat. Gift BAP: N/A
The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song). Morning Sun will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Triggers Justified and Steadfast once upon sendout. Stakeout increases the BAP of a damaging attack used by this Pokemon by five (5) if an opponent is set to use (or has used) U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, Teleport (Switch), during an action or if an opponent has used the attacking action of a D/E move prior to this Pokemon's action. Stakeout allows a Pokemon to act immediately after the attacking action of said Pokemon's target's D/E move by specifying [(Stakeout) *ACTION*] . Sand Rush and Leaf Guard are always active. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.
The Pokemon's Magic Bounce makes the Pokemon immune to the negative effects (ex. loss of ability, evasion drop, perish counter) of all Status category moves not initiated by the user or an ally (ex. Skill Swap, Gravity, Perish Song). Morning Sun will always heal for its highest possible HP value. Triggers Justified and Steadfast once upon sendout. Stakeout increases the BAP of a damaging attack used by this Pokemon by five (5) if an opponent is set to use (or has used) U-turn, Volt Switch, Parting Shot, Teleport (Switch), during an action or if an opponent has used the attacking action of a D/E move prior to this Pokemon's action. Stakeout allows a Pokemon to act immediately after the attacking action of said Pokemon's target's D/E move by specifying [(Stakeout) *ACTION*] . Sand Rush and Leaf Guard are always active. Increases the Pokemon's highest true base stat (e.g. 130 Atk, 85 SpD) of Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by one (1) rank each.
A signature item is supposed to be better than a universal held item. As it stands, Solar Ray's boost is nearly worthless on Yungoos/Gumshoos. It is outclassed in the STAB department by Silk Scarf, regardless of what move Yungoos/Gumshoos uses; outclassed by Expert Belt in cases where you wish to use Super-Effective moves (aside from Crunch, but we'll get to that); and given a run for its money by Razor Fang. On top of this, Yungoos/Gumshoos only learn two moves boosted by Strong Jaw, making the current boost a little bit trivial.
My proposed buff retains the standard ability enhancement of similar Signature Items by powering up Stakeout, the 'Goos' signature ability. It gives the two a greater degree of matchup control, which I believe was what Stakeout was intended by GameFreak for, by punishing all forms of switching as well as discouraging "chicken dancing". Obviously it would need a bit of fine-tuning, and the wording isn't nearly my best, but I think it would ultimately be a better choice for the item's viability. Any opinions are welcome.
S0L1D G0LD: Let's wait until get get a council consensus on Stakeout before we propose buffs based on it.
I'm not saying no to it, rather that the current Stakeout description is up in the air and we aren't implementing this before that and Wimp Out/Emergency Exit discussions are resolved.
If other people want to discuss the proposed then go for it but do note that Stakeout itself is subject to change. Also Solar Ray isn't outclassed by Expert Belt on Gumshoos, just saying.
I'm not saying no to it, rather that the current Stakeout description is up in the air and we aren't implementing this before that and Wimp Out/Emergency Exit discussions are resolved.
If other people want to discuss the proposed then go for it but do note that Stakeout itself is subject to change. Also Solar Ray isn't outclassed by Expert Belt on Gumshoos, just saying.
That's fair. I should also clarify that I knew Stakeout was not finalized, but I assumed either a 1.5x or 2x BAP multiplier against foes switching in for the purposes of avoiding redundancies.
Not in general, no, but my point was that if you're in a matchup/fighting a team comp where you'll be using solely (or mostly) SE coverage other than Crunch, you're losing out by a small margin.Its_A_Random said:
I agree with this. From experience: theorymon balancing is extremely unreliable. Just see the ruckus preceding Aurumoth's implementation.
Just keep as it is ingame for the most part. If necessary, you can exert caution on tourneys and put on a time for things to settle. But if we start cutting everything without seeing how they work out in ASB, we might end up cutting more than we should.
Started to fill in missing Size Classes and CHP's for Pokémon without them at the moment. All Alolan forms are done, I am now up to new Pokémon.
To do list:
Of course this would be quicker but I am also enjoying playing Pokémon Moon... :(
But we are on track. Probably.
To do list:
- Gen VII Pokémon SC / CHP.
- Ice Stone.
- Flesh out Ability descriptions.
- Flesh out Move descriptions / go Deck Knight mode on Leafage.
- CAP buffs.
- Stakeout and Wimp Out / Emergency Exit discussion resolution.
- Anything else needing to be worked on that I missed / discovered mechanics.
- Lock Gen VI and get a new spreadsheet that has all the Gen VI data for battles and tournaments still needing it.
- Update current NDA with new data and spend hours on Moves for Z-Move Data.
- We Gen VII ASB peeps.
Of course this would be quicker but I am also enjoying playing Pokémon Moon... :(
But we are on track. Probably.
Crabominable would be Ice Rock since its location based. Ice Stone is the item that Ninetales-A and Sandslash-A need.
Can we also give Marowak-A Lunar Ray as a sig item, since its evolution is tied to Nighttime?
Can we also give Marowak-A Lunar Ray as a sig item, since its evolution is tied to Nighttime?
Geodude6
Look at my shiny CT!
Its signature item is already Thick Club.
I mean, it can keep that too, but I feel like it should have a sig tied to its evolution type, especially since it isn't normal.
Also, not the first mon to have more than one sig. Roserade, for example, can use Shiny Stone or Rose Incense
The only reason Pokemon that evolve by level or don't evolve have their signatures overridden is this:
...Speaking of Signature items, just realized Salazzle has the wrong one. Should use the same item as Vespiquen, which means that item needs to be reworked, too.
Lunar Ray does not have that. This means that Alolan Marowak gets both Lunar Ray and Thick Club, if Thick Club affects it in-game. (Probably does, I just haven't looked it up.)
...Speaking of Signature items, just realized Salazzle has the wrong one. Should use the same item as Vespiquen, which means that item needs to be reworked, too.
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Why would you ever use Lunar Ray over Thick Club anyway? Like really?
FMD: I'm not saying it shouldn't get Lunar Ray because it technically qualifies as it has been said. What I AM saying is that it's a lost cause to alter Lunar Ray to specifically cater towards it because in almost every situation, I will prefer having Rank 8 Attack and being able to nuke lots of things with that Rank 8 Attack as opposed to some random buff to one of its abilities and a minor boost to its physical bulk.
Just noting that ability flesh-outs are done sans Stakeout/Wimp Out/Emergency Exit for obvious reasons.
Also before someone asks:
No. Full Metal Body, Shadow Shield, and Prism Armor are not affected by Mold Breaker and friends. This is a recently discovered mechanic.
Starting on move flesh-outs as I post this.
Also before someone asks:
No. Full Metal Body, Shadow Shield, and Prism Armor are not affected by Mold Breaker and friends. This is a recently discovered mechanic.
Starting on move flesh-outs as I post this.
Move flesh-outs done. Because Z-Moves are not allowed for combinations I don't think it's necessary to flesh out their descriptions so yeah.
Mostly going to be cleanup at this point. Cleaning up some of the new mechanics, possible buffs for signature Z-Crystals to stop them from being outclassed, Updating some lists like substitution classes, CAP Update revisions, and Stakeout/Wimp Out/Emergency Exit discussion wrap ups to go before the exhausting NDA update to Gen VII thanks to Z-Moves.
Mostly going to be cleanup at this point. Cleaning up some of the new mechanics, possible buffs for signature Z-Crystals to stop them from being outclassed, Updating some lists like substitution classes, CAP Update revisions, and Stakeout/Wimp Out/Emergency Exit discussion wrap ups to go before the exhausting NDA update to Gen VII thanks to Z-Moves.
Random things worth noting, and potentially noting in its move desc: Thousand Arrows on a Flying-type target always hits neutrally, disregarding other types.