Discussion Sun teams in SS ZU

Tuthur · Sunday at 3:18 AM

For the past years, concerns on sun teams in SS ZU have arised and many tournament players have loudly expressed their wish for some tiering actions to take place on sun. BaitWiz recently wrote a post detailing how the sun archetype functions in SS ZU, and I invite people to read it to get a good picture of sun's place in the SS ZU metagame.

A lot of the complains around sun revolve arround Ivysaur; this Pokémon's natural bulk with Eviolite and Toxic immunity allow it to find set-up opportunities on staples of the tier like Stunfisk, Miltank, and Rhydon; while threatening the whole tier with neutral coverage in STAB boosted Solar Beam and Sludge Bomb, and sun boosted Weather Ball. Choice Scarf users like Sawk and Rotom outspeed the bulkier variants of Ivysaur, but still struggle to take it if it hasn't been significantly weakened. However, Ivysaur's strength shouldn't be overstated as it lacks many OHKOes even at +2, making it possible to trade against it.

This leads many to believe that sun should be looked at as a whole archetype, rather than individual setters, as Ivysaur is only marginally stronger than Shiftry or other special Chlorophyll users like Lilligant and Exeggutor that are generally considered outclassed by Ivysaur in this role. A majority of the council members, therefore, would support taking actions on Heat Rock over Ivysaur.

Moreover, many aren't convinced that banning sun is required in SS ZU as there is still some counterplay with defensive Pokémon like Cramorant, Altaria, Silvally-Poison, and Coalossal that are very hard to navigate around for sun teams; or even strong priority moves like Pawniard's Sucker Punch and Piloswine's Ice Shard. Even some of the most common defensive Pokémon can put some work against sun, such as Articuno, Miltank, and Throh.

This thread goal is to determine whether actions should be taken on sun or not in SS ZU, and if yes, should they target Ivysaur or Heat Rock.

Here is the list of voters;

Voters list:
5gen
avarice
Beka
Beraldo
BloodAce
carlosrhv
clean
Corthius
Danny
dex
Drud
DurzaOffTopic
Elfuseon
Fogbound Lake
Greybaum
Indulge in dreams
Jojen
kay
Lizardu
Luck O' the Irish
LustfulLice
Medeia
Monai
neomon
Ninja
OranBerryBlissey10
PandaDoux
pannu
plznostep
Pokeslice
Quagg
RawMelon
seraphz
Shaneghoul
shiloh
Shiritu
sinnabyss
SOMALIA
terreitor
THE_CHUNGLER
TheFranklin
TJ
Toto
Tuthur
Yovan
zause

PandaDoux · Sunday at 3:34 AM

This tier has a MU issue and sun is def contributing a lot to this, it is hard to cover this archetype without downgrading your team; i support tiering action on Sun, specifically Heat Rock since Ivysaur will likely get replaced by one of the many chlorophyll users anyway, idt it'll fix the tier but it will make it better for sure

BaitWiz · Sunday at 3:36 AM

I’ll redirect most of the discussion I had about Sun for the post I already made that Tuthur linked and I don’t actually get a vote in this mess since I’ve never stuck around playing SS ZU long enough to meet criteria for this vote (1-1 SS in ZUPL and basically every other tour I’ve been support for SS rather than starter lol), so I’ll suffice it to say that I think while Ivysaur being banned could potentially be enough, I would much rather see Heat Rock banned to remove Sun altogether.

sinnabyss · Sunday at 5:16 AM

Sun being so polarizing makes building in SS such a nighmare. Basically every team needs 2-3 checks to sun, lest they run into sun and get demolished on preview. Ivy is undeniably a factor, but the brokeness of sun comes more from the lack of solid splashable answers, as well as just how overwhelming the core of ivy/dash/shift is. Supposed defensice answers like Altaria, Coalossal and Silv-Poison usually trade at best, or are left with too little health to answer the next sun abuser. Priority that actually deals with these mons are rare, sucker punch doesnt threaten any of the abusers above 40% HP, mach punch only scares shiftry, ice shard users like pilo and band lass are much harder to fit onto teams, and also dont threaten dash. Banning Ivy doesn't solve the root of the problem, which is how unhealthy the combination of all the abusers are. Having checks to a sun team often leads to worse MUs into other team archetypes. I support banning heat rock, removing a mu fishy ho teamstyle will benefit the tier more in the long run.

Danny · Sunday at 5:47 AM

ban nothing, get good, you youngins and your complaining.

Pokeslice · Sunday at 3:15 PM

My fellow ditto manager Danny is wrong here and I apologize for that. BaitWiz I'll make sure to talk him down don't worry.

As far it relates to Sun discussion, I'll be voting ban on it no matter what and I hope others join me. I think SS ZU is an awesome tier and some of my more fun Smogon moments have come from playing it in ZU tours, but the entire time I've built this tier or looked at scouts, the idea of Sun has been a constant annoyance. It's not a very skillful playstyle, is entirely a fish, and is a pretty large strain on the builder. Nerfing Sun feels like a no brainer quality of life move to make this 9/10 tier a 10/10.

I'd say to move on Heat Rock. Ivysaur is definitely the most common Sun abuser, but I hesitate to say it's the reason Sun is tough to deal with. There are countless of other mons that work extremely well on Sun to overwhelm teams/checks, especially in tandem with each other, and Ivysaur is just one part of that.

Discussion Sun teams in SS ZU

Tuthur

gnawtier than ever

PandaDoux

PD

BaitWiz

ZU Ladder Achievement Hunter

sinnabyss

Viva Misery

Danny

MSGA

Pokeslice

Thanks for the Dance