Survey Discussing Future Tiering Policy

[TheTabKey]

I also do fell Knock Off, Pursuit and U-turn (volt switch) may be a bit on the overpowered side.

Chansey loves you right now.

I gotta agree with Ninja Charizard, no single Pokemon should be that good at something, but I don't really see anything that fits that right now.
I've never really had a problem with either of the Deo's (I've also only seen a handful of them, maybe they are broken).
Char X, despite how powerful he is, is not on broken levels of powerful.

Nothing else on that list in the survey has ever caused me problems (the worst of them being Mega-Venusaur, but even still it's not impossible to take one of those down).

I'd like to see which Charizard is being used in the team preview. That would take away a lot of the "broken-ness" in Char X, but it wouldn't make him completely worthless. He'd still be terrifying (and Char Y would still be good).

On another note;
First tiering discussion/suspect test thing I'll be posting in after 3 years of lurking.
.o/

 

[RotomPoison]

I'd like to see which Charizard is being used in the team preview. That would take away a lot of the "broken-ness" in Char X, but it wouldn't make him completely worthless. He'd still be terrifying (and Char Y would still be good).

That would be altering game mechanics. The game doesn't tell you which Charizard it is, so you can't say "this is Charizard X" as a random message that pops up, because the game doesn't.


Chou Edit: And yet, it's possible for two players playing each other on DS to tell each other any information (even true for wifi thanks to voice communication, or social media since so many of our wifi battles are arranged through the forum anyway). Point is for in-cartridge play, we'd just be inforcing a rule: If you use Charizard, you have to tell your opponent which mega stone you're using if any.

This does not at all affect game mechanics.

RP edit: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...re-tiering-policy.3509505/page-5#post-5533726

 

[TheTabKey]

That would be altering game mechanics. The game doesn't tell you which Charizard it is, so you can't say "this is Charizard X" as a random message that pops up, because the game doesn't.

It's an option in the survey.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

If something is broken then it's broken; fuck any collateral.

The only things I see being suspected in the near future are the Deos, Zard X, and MAYBE Bisharp.

The Deos are the Deos, doing whatever the fuck they want stupidly well while being unpredictable.

Zard X fits on literally any team style and can sweep through the whole metagame after one boost thanks to its ungodly STAB combo.

Bisharp put immense pressure on Defoggers and doesn't even need to hit the field to provide team support. It can also sweep through entire teams after one Defiant boost and is impossible to check with Intimidators since they only make it worse. He's more borderline due to the amount of prediction required, but I can totally see him being tested later.

Bisharp is no where to be broken. Specially when there aren't a method who guarantee hazards being up.

Deoxys-D is uncompetitive. Specially with Red Card, it's able to put at least 2 hazards unless you have a really strong dark/ghost/bug attack, with it's not fair.

Deoxys-S is a bit uncompetitive because his speed makes guarantee to (with focus Sash) to set up two things. Although I find it more "competitive".

About the Charizard, I'm sure MCharizard-Y is not broken by any way. But MCharizard X is a very bad problem because if you miss against MCharizard X and make a mistake, your team is severely harmed. The big problem are two:
-:MCharizard X has a combination who is unwallable with the exception of Heatran, Azumarill and Diancie, pokemon which can be dealt with Earthquake, which a lot of MCharizardX has.

And his most threatening sets has two big problems:
-It can't be burned, like every Fire type, which makes the most useful tool to deal with set up sweeper be a aste.
-His stats: Two strong STABs with perfect coverage in a pokemon with a excellent typing defensively (only weak to Ground and Dragon), an ability that gives them a Life Orb without its nasty effect.

About Deoxys-D and Deoxys-S:
But there's a difference between them and other hazard leads.

Pokemon where Stealth Rock is viable: Landorus isn't a pokemon which usually have hazards. Clefable has very bad 4MSS to use the move. Excadrill has a bit of 4MSS, specially when he is the best spinner. Garchomp (and his Mega) are great setters of SR, but his main reason to be a viable setter is his offensive presence with dual Dragon + Ground. Mega mawile hasn't had the slot to use the move. Tyranitar is one of the best SR of the tiers but it has more offensive pressure and can't afford to run items like Red Card. Mega Tyranitar main set is DD who has not place to run this move (although it's viable).

Ferrothorn should be the best hazard setter after the Deoxys formes. But it is really weak to Fire and can't afford to run anything other than leftovers or Rocky helmet. Heatran is one of the best SR of the tier, but it's simply a wallw ith SR, or a tank with SR. Hippowdon is a great SR but it's an standard defensive setter. Landorus-T is a very viablesetter with a great ability and great offensive presence. Terrakion is a lead that sometimes use Stealth Rock but his main use is his dual STAB.

Mamoswine is one of the most used leads (after the Deoxys formes) to use SR alongside his potent STB combo Sarmory plays very similarly like Ferrothorn with the bonus of being a Steel/flying (specially for levitate), being one of the best types for physically defensive pokemon.

Gliscor doesn't have the slot to use the move because has all of his slots already occupied. Quagsire also doesn't have the slot and there are better pokemon in stall to do that job. Mew is very good in putting SR but it's rather rare and has 432824 sets to share. mega Aerodactyl works like a mini Deoxys-S with higher attack but it uses a Mega Slot and can be outspeeded by more scarfers. Rhyperior is a pokemon who has greta stats and a great ability but has the annoying typingat best of being Rock/Ground with 6 weakness (and some aren't patchable by Solid Rock, specially the special ones).

Othe rpokemon who may run Stealth Rock are:Mega Aggron, Krookodile, Infernape, Celebi, Jirachi and Empoleon. Also, remember that Roserade, Froslass and specially Klefki can run Spikes.
Pokemon here Stealth Rock is unviable: Mega Pinsir, Chansey, Kabutops,

 

[Talpr0ne]

You are forgetting Shuckle, which imo will be, alongside with either Klefki or Froslass, the face of HO if/when Deoxys-Dick will be banned. Shuckle is basically a Deoxys-Dick sacrificing Spikes and decent speed for Sticky Web. While this means that Shuckle HO will have a worse matchup against more defensive team, it is also nightmare fuel for offensive teams with a lot of grounded mons, now threatened by stuff like Diggersby, Charizard-M-Y, Bisharp, Crawdaunt, Heracross-M etc. actually able to outspeed them without relying of priority. Like Deo-Dick, Shuckle is also near impossible to prevent from doing at least one of its jobs, and must be taunted twice in order to prevent him to do both(assuming Shuckle holds a Mental Herb which is near standard, though Red Card could also be an option i guess). Not claiming that Shuckle is broken(in OU, at least), but it isn't something to overlook when meta will be in demaind of reliable hazard leads.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

I don't disagree with you about Deoxys-D (though banning it won't solve anything because Klefki is gonna get Stealth Rock from the OR/AS tutors), but we do have quite a number of OU pokemon who completely eclipse everything else at their role. Chansey is the best special wall (and arguably even the best mixed wall) but she's still fine.

This is incorrect because unlike Deoxys-D, Chansey is extremely flawed. A reliance on Eviolite, lack of offensive presence, poor typing, etc prevent it from being overpowered. I'd like to see both the Deoxys suspected, Deoxys-Defense is unparalleled in it's ability to lay hazards, it's versatility makes it so that there is no surefire way to stop it from doing it's jobs. All the Magic Bounce users are mediocre and not viable (and just get wrecked by Bisharp anyway), Red Card can easily grab it a layer of spikes, Thunder Wave/Taunt/Red Card makes setting up on it pointless, faster Taunt users lose to Mental Herb sets. It's made the metagame incredibly stale and centered around DeoSharp since it's so autopilot and there is no way to stop Deoxys-D from doing it's job. I realize that Deoxys-Speed was already suspect tested, but honestly I think that was a mistake not banning it since people hadn't realized it's full potential at that point. It may not be the standard for hazard lead because Deoxys-Defense does it better, but it can still do it well and if Deo-D was banned then it'd obviously become the standard. It has all the versatility of Deo-D, only trading bulk for an Offensive presence which allows it to revenge kill the entire tier, Psycho Boost/Superpower/Ice Beam is a godly combination and has an alarmingly low amount of things that won't take huge damage from it, namely Aegislash and Psychic types both of which are threatened by Knock Off, another common move Deoxys-S can carry.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

This is incorrect because unlike Deoxys-D, Chansey is extremely flawed. A reliance on Eviolite, lack of offensive presence, poor typing, etc prevent it from being overpowered. I'd like to see both the Deoxys suspected, Deoxys-Defense is unparalleled in it's ability to lay hazards, it's versatility makes it so that there is no surefire way to stop it from doing it's jobs. All the Magic Bounce users are mediocre and not viable (and just get wrecked by Bisharp anyway), Red Card can easily grab it a layer of spikes, Thunder Wave/Taunt/Red Card makes setting up on it pointless, faster Taunt users lose to Mental Herb sets. It's made the metagame incredibly stale and centered around DeoSharp since it's so autopilot and there is no way to stop Deoxys-D from doing it's job. I realize that Deoxys-Speed was already suspect tested, but honestly I think that was a mistake not banning it since people hadn't realized it's full potential at that point. It may not be the standard for hazard lead because Deoxys-Defense does it better, but it can still do it well and if Deo-D was banned then it'd obviously become the standard. It has all the versatility of Deo-D, only trading bulk for an Offensive presence which allows it to revenge kill the entire tier, Psycho Boost/Superpower/Ice Beam is a godly combination and has an alarmingly low amount of things that won't take huge damage from it, namely Aegislash and Psychic types both of which are threatened by Knock Off, another common move Deoxys-S can carry.

I don't think Deo-S is as big as a problem as Deo-D, but you highlighted one important thing. The things about the Deoxys forms (all four of them) is that they have some stat that is completely off the charts, above anything the tier can deal with. Deo-D is impossible to OHKO, Deo-S is impossible to outspeed without priority moves (which don't OHKO because they are weaker), and the other two are impossible to wall. Deoxys is all about being unbeatable in some way, a pokemon that will never fail in whatever role you assigned it. That's unnatural to the metagame, something that most pokemon can't simply deal with. I don't think a pokemon like this should belong to the meta.

Now talking about Deo-S, this is what I think about it. As a hazard lead, anything with good attack power and priority can stop it from laying more than one hazard, which is what you can say about any lead with Focus Sash, so it's fine. As a revenge killer it's where it really shines, but it's still fragile, priority-less, and limited to moves that reduce its attack power, while having mediocre offenses. So it's not really realiable, and it's somewhat possible to work around with smart switching. Deo-S is great, but it's not flawless. Deo-D is utterly and completely flawless. That's the difference.

I think both should be suspected, just to be sure. But if I were to vote in such a suspect test, I'd vote to ban Deo-D, and not ban Deo-S.

You are forgetting Shuckle, which imo will be, alongside with either Klefki or Froslass, the face of HO if/when Deoxys-Dick will be banned. Shuckle is basically a Deoxys-Dick sacrificing Spikes and decent speed for Sticky Web. While this means that Shuckle HO will have a worse matchup against more defensive team, it is also nightmare fuel for offensive teams with a lot of grounded mons, now threatened by stuff like Diggersby, Charizard-M-Y, Bisharp, Crawdaunt, Heracross-M etc. actually able to outspeed them without relying of priority. Like Deo-Dick, Shuckle is also near impossible to prevent from doing at least one of its jobs, and must be taunted twice in order to prevent him to do both(assuming Shuckle holds a Mental Herb which is near standard, though Red Card could also be an option i guess). Not claiming that Shuckle is broken(in OU, at least), but it isn't something to overlook when meta will be in demaind of reliable hazard leads.

Still, even assuming Mental Herb, Shuckle doesn't learn Taunt or Magic Coat, and it's slow as fuck, so it gets one layer at most, then gets taunted, then gives free turns to the opposing lead. That's not a guaranteed advantage. That's something you can say about pretty much every sashed lead.

With Deo-D, it's absolute. By the time it goes down, there will be more hazards in the opponent's side than in Deo-D's side. There's no winning the hazard war against Deo-D. It will win against every other lead. Unless you are really lucky and manage to lure it into taunting you as you attack, or something like that. But guaranteed checks don't exist.

 

[D-Ssain]

Suspect test Aegislash plzzzzzzz.

The clause about Charizard X and Y and how they should be identified before the battle begins seems interesting to say the least but it deviates from Game mechanics and the surprise factor is a part of the game and seems more like a convenience clause.

Keldeo and Azumarill should be added to the list and Charizard Y and Excadrill could be two pokes to remove.

Overall the questions were very well done Chou! :)

 

[Karxrida]

I do feel that the survey should have included some OP moves in the questions too, not only Mons, Stealth Rock is IMO the most broken thing in the tier, however as crazy as it may sound it is likely to be a broken thing that is healthy for the meta. I also think Knock Off, Pursuit and U-turn (volt switch) may be a bit on the overpowered side.

Other than that great survey!

None of those moves are ever getting banned, period. We already had an unofficial SR vote last year (verdict was it wasn't broken) and opened an optional ladder without it because people thought it wold he interesting to see how the meta game would look like without it (here's a hint: Flyspam but WAY worse).
Pursuit is conditional, weak if you mis-predict, and only on 3 OU viable Mons.
U-turn and Volt Switch are annoying but easily punishable with hazards, Iron Barbs/Rough Skin/ Rocky Helmet, and Ground-types.

 

[Ropeburn]

This was a good survey, but I dislike the fact that there's no "I do not ladder" option. I voted for suspecting Deoxys (both forms), both Genies, Pinsir and Charizard-X. I'd also like to have Talon looked at. I don't inherently think they're broken pokemon, but I definitely dislike the effect they have on OU, and feel they should at least be looked at.

Also, I'd like to chip in on the move banning thing. If a pokemon is broken with certain moves, then it should be banned. Once we start cherrypicking moves to ban, then where do we stop?

 

[Karxrida]

This was a good survey, but I dislike the fact that there's no "I do not ladder" option. I voted for suspecting Deoxys (both forms), both Genies, Pinsir and Charizard-X. I'd also like to have Talon looked at. I don't inherently think they're broken pokemon, but I definitely dislike the effect they have on OU, and feel they should at least be looked at.

Also, I'd like to chip in on the move banning thing. If a pokemon is broken with certain moves, then it should be banned. Once we start cherrypicking moves to ban, then where do we stop?

We should only be banning moves if they are broken on multiple Pokemon, like Swagger and how we should have dealt with BP in the first place.

 

[Hypercut]

Ok, this is my opinion.
Thundurus is broken af, checking a big part of the meta and hard hit everything that isn't mega venusaur with its thunderbolt. Oh right, running either physical or special sets makes it unpredictable.
Bisharp its so powerful, and obviously the sd set open huge falls in your team if you don't stop it before, and obviously deosharp teams are everywhere.
Deo-S and Deo-D are uncompetitive. C'mon the first can run a lot of sets, beginning from suicide setter or screen setter, life orber with stealth rock and psycho boost, and with its ridiculously high speed can deal huge damages. Deo-D with red card sets up at least sr and one/two layers of spikes, and obviously bisharp come in and gg.
Charizard-X and Y are absolutely broken, no distinction, X can't be burned and after one dragon dance may be gg, if you don't have quagsire obv, but c'mon you can't put quag in every team. Y with drought + fire blast deals ridiculously high damage to all, and the mixset has neither checks or counters. Also, you can't say what's its form at the beginning of the battle.
Landorus-i with rock polish sweeps the entire team after sr and one layer of spikes, what about ban pls?
Mega Venusaur is the definitive wall, you can't beat him unless you have flying moves in your team, but its not so broken.
Talonflame is the best revengekiller i've ever seen, and underrated sets like the stallbreaker wow + taunt are very unpredictable. The choice allows you to ohko in revengekilling, if you don't set stealth rock you'll ruined. Imo must be suspected.
This meta is already at the beginning, too much things to be suspected and banned from ou, and if we don't hurry, will do the same end of bw.

 

[Baharoth]

I dont get the problems of some people here with Deo-D, yeah its almost impossible to prevent it from laying rocks, and sometimes one layer of Spikes (2 very rare from my experience, if gets up that many your team is simply unprepared for it or a stall team) but thats nothing game breaking. The hazards can be removed with ease, some Defoggers simply beat Bisharp if he tries to switch in which is one option and the other is to simply defog into bisharp, sac your defoger and then kill him with some fighting type like Keldeo, Terra or Breloom or just burn him with Zard X or something. One of these things is on bascily every team so thats realy not a big issue. Or just go and use Ttar/Excadrill on your team like everybody and his mother does atm, those 2 almost beat HO on their own as Exca outspeeds and ohkos most staples that are found on HO teams and can easily remove the hazards as well. Even Balloon Aegi cant stop him as he will get his ballon broken by Iron Head on the obvious switch and then he is just EQ fodder.

The only thing i would consider even remotely suspect worthy is Zard X because his DD set doesnt have any real counters, you have to rely on checks/revengekilling to deal with it. I dont think it needs to go but here i could somewhat understand a suspect test.

 

[Red Cat]

I guess if we actually have the opportunity to talk about what we want to be suspected, I'll take it. I think we should suspect the stuff which was banned in BW2 and then let back into OU even though they are arguably better than ever now. I'm talking about both Deo forms and the genies. They all benefit from the Knock Off buff to varying degrees, and the use of Defog over Rapid Spin allows both Deo forms to keep their own hazards up with Taunt and gives Thundurus an opportunity to take advantage of Defiant. Thundurus is really the only one which lost something in the generation shift with the Drizzle nerf, but it has so much else going for it that it still should be suspected.

A lot of the stuff which was let out of Ubers at the beginning of this generation has been put back (Blaziken, Deoxys-N, Genesect) and I think the Deo forms and the genies are part of the toothpaste which needs to be put back in the tube too. I answered on the survey that I was frustrated with the pace of the suspect tests because I think we should have addressed these threats a lot sooner given their history on the banlist in previous generations. I think we need to address the old stuff first before we can accurately assess whether the new toys (Aegislash, Zard-X, etc.) should be suspected or not.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

yeah add a i do not ladder option

 

[Karxrida]

Quick question; how do you know anything about the meta game if you don't ladder?

 

[TFL]

Quick question; how do you know anything about the meta game if you don't ladder?

Constantly play good players in tours or outside for testing purposes and such. Most good players do not ladder by the way.

 

[Baharoth]

By playing in tournaments for example

 

[Hypercut]

The most used defogger are none other than latwins and Mega scizor, but don't forget that dark-type move have a boost in this metagame, because steel doesn't take it anymore. If bisharp comes into defog it gains a free +2 boost in atk, enough to sweep your team. Neither latios or latias can take a sucker punch, and scizor is 2hko after +2.

 

[Jobes]

Say, is there any way we could get access to the data once you're done giving the survey? I think a lot of us would be interested in seeing how the voting goes.

 

[Baharoth]

Mega Scizor is by no means the most common Defogger, he isnt even top 5. His defog set is the least viable going by the analysis and my experience pretty much says the same. And honestly if you get swept by +2 Bisharp your team outright sucks, there are so many common and highly viable mons that can stop it with ease. And if you go for Defog early in the game your Bisharp counter should be alive and on full health so no problem here.

 

[Mikasa]

None of those moves are ever getting banned, period. We already had an unofficial SR vote last year (verdict was it wasn't broken) and opened an optional ladder without it because people thought it wold he interesting to see how the meta game would look like without it (here's a hint: Flyspam but WAY worse).
Pursuit is conditional, weak if you mis-predict, and only on 3 OU viable Mons.
U-turn and Volt Switch are annoying but easily punishable with hazards, Iron Barbs/Rough Skin/ Rocky Helmet, and Ground-types.

The definition of broken according to Urban Dictionary : "A game object or facility that is too good to exist. It is so powerful that it is unbalancing and hence breaks the game. Every winning player has to use this to be competitive." See the bolded part? It fits Stealth Rock perfectly, so yes SR IS broken, period. There is no test needed it is a move that you either use or you are making yourself weaker, however we could use a test to see if we can live without this broken element, IMO we just can't because as you said Flyspam may become too powerful and Focus Sash spam is incredibly annoying and unfun to play, so as I said before it is probably healthy for the meta despite being a broken move itself.

As for the other moves, they may be considered uncompetitive because they go against what competitive pokémon is about which is switching, they either prevent you from switching (Pursuit) or give you switch advantage (Volt Turn) and for this reason one could make a case against those moves, do I think they should be suspected? Hell no! But I also don't think Mega Gyarados/Tyranitar should and yet they are in the survey.

BTW I forgot about Baton Pass, this is a move we should be looking at too, though Smogon banning tradition would point that we should ban Espeon and Scolipede, in the basis that a move/ability is only considered broken when every user is broken with it, and I really doubt BP Ninjask or Vaporeon are broken themselves.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I dont get the problems of some people here with Deo-D, yeah its almost impossible to prevent it from laying rocks, and sometimes one layer of Spikes (2 very rare from my experience, if gets up that many your team is simply unprepared for it or a stall team) but thats nothing game breaking. The hazards can be removed with ease,

Rapid Spin was a thing last gen. Some people said the same shit, "it's not OP because you can remove the hazards." It still got banned.

 

[Dave Italia]

As I see it, the most urgent are the two Charizards and Venusaur.
Charizards are problematic because you never know who you're dealing with, and Venusaur...Talonflame and both Charizard can only try to stop it. Both destroyed by Stealth Rock. Stealth Rock that now are too easy to remove.
The rest is not a problem. Anyway, I hope you will include Defog in Suspect, with only Rapid Spin the game was more competitive.

 

[Rotosect]

Extrasesory Greninja, Psychic Landorus-I and Kyurem-B deal with M-Venusaur well, and so do pretty much all flying and psychic types. It also has a ton of issues like no passive recovery, vulnerability to WoW and mediocre coverage. I seriously can't fathom why M-Venusaur would even be in that poll, let alone be suspected.

Anyway, I hope you will include Defog in Suspect, with only Rapid Spin the game was more competitive.

Ok now this is just getting silly.