Not sure how I feel about this answer tbh cause it seems very conflicted with Laurel's point of view. Although this was the answer I expected from ajhockestar, I just needed to hear from you directly.
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Survivor Survivor Season 6: Fans vs Favorites vs Fumblers (And the winner is...ajhockeystar!)
- Thread starter HeaLnDeaL
- Start date
I sense some serious shade being thrown
Can't see any shade cause I'm always in the shadow.
To say AJ wasn't in control after F7 would just be a lie. He took out the players he wanted.
However, I had a lot of power in the early game. It did fall apart for me, but at least I was able to win immunities and maintain my relationship with AJ -- I made due with what I had.
Perhaps "under my shadow" is overstating, but you did heavily rely on the strategy I gave you and that is important for the jurors to know. You could have acted independently, but the relationship I had with you was stronger than what you had on the other side and thats why you were working with me early in the game.
I'm sure you do think you will win, you are the "favorite". Anyway, Cleo has 3 locked up votes while I only had 1. Of course you liked your odds better vs me.
I do think you underestimated me though. I did expect more from your opening statement.
slander only works if people believe it
then why should you win over AJ?
It's not slander because I gave evidence. The real slander here is you claiming me to be a brick wall when you never messaged me at all. You claim that I never talk in the alliance, but it was because you added me without my consent. Why should I respond to an alliance I was planning to stab?
Because I was his equal. The decisions we made were made together. From what aj is saying in his posts, it is easy to think I just waited for the vote and just voted with him. That is untrue because I made much of the decision together with him and OM. I made my own contribution to the game. It was not stunning, but I survived. Many of AJ plays would not happen if I was not there too. AJ over exaggerates his play a lot, he had his fair share of pms, I had mine. He however tried to diminish my contribution. I do not think we should reward the win to a player like this.
I feel like I shouldn't need to respond to this, but oh well. You're talking about me exaggerating... :thinking:
I went to the one and only alliance chat we had to see what me and AJ said, here's a rundown of what AJ said:
"hey!"
"tyty"
"honestly I don't have too strong of an opinion who goes haha
I just wanna feel confident that we have the numbers
so really anyone outside of this is fine"
":O"
"rip"
And I'm the only brick wall to you.
"hey!"
"tyty"
"honestly I don't have too strong of an opinion who goes haha
I just wanna feel confident that we have the numbers
so really anyone outside of this is fine"
":O"
"rip"
And I'm the only brick wall to you.
The alliance chat that we went against...?
This was the alliance MK added us with Cleo, OM, Mari, Inferno and Shub. I was trying to point out that MK called me a brick wall when he made no attempt to contact me first. At the same time, you just said filler throughout the whole chat and wasn't called out about anything.
I was PMing him too, unlike a certain someone I know :thinking:
Alright everyone. The votes are in. I'd like to remind everyone that the jury was voting for a WINNER. You want to see your name here.
First vote:
aj.
Second vote:
Laurel.
Third vote:
aj.
Fourth vote:
Laurel.
We're at two votes aj, two votes Laurel.
Fifth vote:
Sixth vote:
Laurel. That's three votes aj, three votes Laurel.
Seventh vote:
aj.
Eighth vote:
Laurel. That's four votes aj, four votes laurel. two votes left.
Ninth vote:
Doggo Plays.
wait. what?
Uhhhhh, not sure how that one got in here.
The ACTUAL ninth vote:
Drookez. Thats four votes AJ, four votes Laurel, 1 vote Drookez. We have one vote left.
The tenth vote and the winner of Smogon Survivor Season 6: Fans vs. Favorites vs. Fumblers:
AJ!
Once again, congrats to the winner and thanks to all of you for playing!
First vote:
aj.
Second vote:
Laurel.
Third vote:
aj.
Fourth vote:
Laurel.
We're at two votes aj, two votes Laurel.
Fifth vote:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/532374181900451841/547801934447509514/1569961272.png(the image is too large, but it's a vote for aj, sorry LOL)
aj.
aj.
Sixth vote:
Laurel. That's three votes aj, three votes Laurel.
Seventh vote:
aj.
Eighth vote:
Laurel. That's four votes aj, four votes laurel. two votes left.
Ninth vote:
Doggo Plays.
wait. what?
Uhhhhh, not sure how that one got in here.
The ACTUAL ninth vote:
Drookez. Thats four votes AJ, four votes Laurel, 1 vote Drookez. We have one vote left.
The tenth vote and the winner of Smogon Survivor Season 6: Fans vs. Favorites vs. Fumblers:
AJ!
Congratulations to AJ for winning Smogon Survivor Season 6 in a 5-4-1 vote! This season was, in my opinion the best season we've had so far. It was a pleasure to watch you all play and to host alongside HeaLnDeaL and Da Letter El. I hope to see you all around in future survivor games.
Once again, congrats to the winner and thanks to all of you for playing!
Wow. What can I say, this game was absolutely amazing. I'd like to thank everyone who gave me my votes. MK007 OM room Cleo shubaka17 vooper I really appreciate it. As for the other jury members, thanks for listening, even if you didn't vote for me!
Energy, you put up a hell of a fight this game. Your immunity run was nothing short of great, and your FTC arguments were convincing too. You definitely would have won against any other person.
Drookez, thank you for being an amazing ally this whole game. I couldn't have made it here without you.
And of course, thanks to the hosts. I really enjoyed the improvements from the last game, so massive props to you guys.
As a whole, I'm really happy about how I played this game. I executed my strategy pretty much exactly how I planned to. And honestly, the most rewarding part was the improvement of my social game from the last game. Last game I only talked to people about game related stuff, and that was only talking to my allies. It was so great meeting all the people who I didn't talk to before and talking again with people who I hadn't talked to in a while. So I thank everyone who played for making this experience a great one. See you all next time!
Energy, you put up a hell of a fight this game. Your immunity run was nothing short of great, and your FTC arguments were convincing too. You definitely would have won against any other person.
Drookez, thank you for being an amazing ally this whole game. I couldn't have made it here without you.
And of course, thanks to the hosts. I really enjoyed the improvements from the last game, so massive props to you guys.
As a whole, I'm really happy about how I played this game. I executed my strategy pretty much exactly how I planned to. And honestly, the most rewarding part was the improvement of my social game from the last game. Last game I only talked to people about game related stuff, and that was only talking to my allies. It was so great meeting all the people who I didn't talk to before and talking again with people who I hadn't talked to in a while. So I thank everyone who played for making this experience a great one. See you all next time!
As a spectator:
Congrats again to everyone in the final. Outcome aside IMO it's always an achievement to get to the final of these games regardless of if you get votes or not. I left the discord so I'm sure I missed a lot of discussion there but from the FTC I gather this game had a really fun/interesting/exciting merge. I definitely felt vibes of my own final tribal council and that season was amazing so I'm sure the same was true here.
Big congrats to AJ for sure. I knew you were going to be huge contender and having played last season I felt like you definitely had the relationships to get far and it seems like you moved past that as well to get to the winner stage. It definitely feels to me like you were the right player to win the game. I think it's awesome that you took your last survivor experience and used it to fix your mistakes and grab yourself the W. Winning this game is really difficult and so congrats on joining a select group.
Shoutouts to Laurel as well - I definitely feel for you since I finished runner up too (and I guess Flyhn probably can relate if he's followed this at all heh). But coming one vote off is an incredible feat and really shows that you played an extraordinarily close game. Yeah, sure I don't know the specifics so maybe aj planned the jury perfectly but I doubt it. I wanted you to do well this game because you're a first time player and it seems like you really gave it your all this game. It's really cool to see people get invested in these games and I think your play has definitely demonstrated that you were definitely worthy of a win even if it didn't quite happen. Nothing but respect from me and I hope you come back and play again.
And of course congrats to Drookez. I was impressed with how you presented yourself in the FTC and think you put up a good fight. I did feel like you were the least likely to win but I think you did a good job of trying to point out exactly what it was about your game that people should respect. You may have only got one vote, but it's still an accomplishment that you made it this far and I'm super happy you didn't give up at the final tribal and gave it your best shot. That's all anyone can ask for.
Some minor spectator tidbits - it would be nice if the update posts in the thread had more info. I know everything happens in discord but I do feel like it's better for spectators or whoever is following the game if they can keep up with stuff at least generally in the thread. Stuff like revealing challenges post-merge where the jury can see them poses an interesting question as to whether they should be getting that info (in staying as true as possible to the show or not). In general, I think more info in the thread is better but obviously it's the hosts call. The intro post stayed updated which was nice but it would've been easier to follow had things like who was voted out been included in the post. Ultimately I think this is just me being a relic of the past in liking the game being on the forum. I guess it's inevitable that discord will always be the place where the game is played - but from an introduction standpoint I do feel like it's less daunting to have things here in public where it's more likely people might stumble upon the game.
I can't speak to the challenge-front after I was voted out but from what I participated in and saw in this thread, I felt like the challenges weren't very interesting. I hate to make what is potentially a contentious comparison but in hal's survivor I really enjoyed playing the challenges because they were actually challenging in a way that was fun and enjoyable to do. They tested different skills and had a good combination of individual expression and teamwork involved. I wanted to put in the effort to do well at tasks that seemed fairly inconsequential at first. Creating challenges is really difficult, I know, but for me a lot of the challenges in this game just weren't fun. And that to me defeats one of the purposes of this game, which is to have fun and engaging challenges that don't just come off as a chore. They weren't either of them. I can understanding throwing in a couple "endurance" challenges where you suffer for the sake of suffering but it did feel to me that the majority of the challenges were you just on an island for something that supposedly was a "team" affair.
as a player (not sure who cares so putting this in hide tage)
Thanks to the hosts (Heal the most obv) for providing another great entry in this series. It's hard to believe that I was the first to really get a good Survivor game up and running and I'm glad it's taken off the way it did. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea but I really hope that it continues to provide a different type of circus experience to people and keep them involved in this subforum if mafia isn't their thing. So on that note thanks everyone for playing (even if you voted me :P)
GG
Congrats again to everyone in the final. Outcome aside IMO it's always an achievement to get to the final of these games regardless of if you get votes or not. I left the discord so I'm sure I missed a lot of discussion there but from the FTC I gather this game had a really fun/interesting/exciting merge. I definitely felt vibes of my own final tribal council and that season was amazing so I'm sure the same was true here.
Big congrats to AJ for sure. I knew you were going to be huge contender and having played last season I felt like you definitely had the relationships to get far and it seems like you moved past that as well to get to the winner stage. It definitely feels to me like you were the right player to win the game. I think it's awesome that you took your last survivor experience and used it to fix your mistakes and grab yourself the W. Winning this game is really difficult and so congrats on joining a select group.
Shoutouts to Laurel as well - I definitely feel for you since I finished runner up too (and I guess Flyhn probably can relate if he's followed this at all heh). But coming one vote off is an incredible feat and really shows that you played an extraordinarily close game. Yeah, sure I don't know the specifics so maybe aj planned the jury perfectly but I doubt it. I wanted you to do well this game because you're a first time player and it seems like you really gave it your all this game. It's really cool to see people get invested in these games and I think your play has definitely demonstrated that you were definitely worthy of a win even if it didn't quite happen. Nothing but respect from me and I hope you come back and play again.
And of course congrats to Drookez. I was impressed with how you presented yourself in the FTC and think you put up a good fight. I did feel like you were the least likely to win but I think you did a good job of trying to point out exactly what it was about your game that people should respect. You may have only got one vote, but it's still an accomplishment that you made it this far and I'm super happy you didn't give up at the final tribal and gave it your best shot. That's all anyone can ask for.
Some minor spectator tidbits - it would be nice if the update posts in the thread had more info. I know everything happens in discord but I do feel like it's better for spectators or whoever is following the game if they can keep up with stuff at least generally in the thread. Stuff like revealing challenges post-merge where the jury can see them poses an interesting question as to whether they should be getting that info (in staying as true as possible to the show or not). In general, I think more info in the thread is better but obviously it's the hosts call. The intro post stayed updated which was nice but it would've been easier to follow had things like who was voted out been included in the post. Ultimately I think this is just me being a relic of the past in liking the game being on the forum. I guess it's inevitable that discord will always be the place where the game is played - but from an introduction standpoint I do feel like it's less daunting to have things here in public where it's more likely people might stumble upon the game.
I can't speak to the challenge-front after I was voted out but from what I participated in and saw in this thread, I felt like the challenges weren't very interesting. I hate to make what is potentially a contentious comparison but in hal's survivor I really enjoyed playing the challenges because they were actually challenging in a way that was fun and enjoyable to do. They tested different skills and had a good combination of individual expression and teamwork involved. I wanted to put in the effort to do well at tasks that seemed fairly inconsequential at first. Creating challenges is really difficult, I know, but for me a lot of the challenges in this game just weren't fun. And that to me defeats one of the purposes of this game, which is to have fun and engaging challenges that don't just come off as a chore. They weren't either of them. I can understanding throwing in a couple "endurance" challenges where you suffer for the sake of suffering but it did feel to me that the majority of the challenges were you just on an island for something that supposedly was a "team" affair.
as a player (not sure who cares so putting this in hide tage)
It was disappointing to go out when I did but I can't say I was that surprised nor that I deserved it. I do think it was a big mistake for a lot of people in the game. I would've been the ideal person to create a relationship with because of the fact that I was relatively unconnected. I'm a pretty consistent player (at least nowadays...) in terms of what I offer and in terms of what my values are - I give it my all in challenges and I am loyal as much as I can be. This is where my fault lies. I didn't clearly establish what I brought to the table in terms of a partnership/alliance. I should've put myself out there more and tried to be more upfront. That is something that's really difficult in this game because you don't have that in-person aspect to "read" a relationship so to speak but as a result it's something that's incredibly important to do.
I don't know if it's right to say that I'm going to be more "cutthroat" in the future. I think if I play again I'm going to try and be more aggressive in establishing alliances, or at least in being upfront with people. I think this is difficult for everyone and that's why you see similar people working together. But I think if you look at what most winners have been good at doing, it's that they are able to create relationships with people they probably wouldn't necessarily would at the very beginning. So that's something for me (and I guess others who play) to keep in mind for the future
I don't know if it's right to say that I'm going to be more "cutthroat" in the future. I think if I play again I'm going to try and be more aggressive in establishing alliances, or at least in being upfront with people. I think this is difficult for everyone and that's why you see similar people working together. But I think if you look at what most winners have been good at doing, it's that they are able to create relationships with people they probably wouldn't necessarily would at the very beginning. So that's something for me (and I guess others who play) to keep in mind for the future
Thanks to the hosts (Heal the most obv) for providing another great entry in this series. It's hard to believe that I was the first to really get a good Survivor game up and running and I'm glad it's taken off the way it did. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea but I really hope that it continues to provide a different type of circus experience to people and keep them involved in this subforum if mafia isn't their thing. So on that note thanks everyone for playing (even if you voted me :P)
GG
Things I liked about this season:
-5 advantages, (4 idols total from 3 starting tribes, 1 fumbler island + extra vote) seemed to work well. Finding the sweet spot for enough advantages to keep the game interesting but not too much to make it crazy is always a top concern. Personally, I think one of the biggest failures of Circus S5 was the lack of advantages, which helped the majority alliance to stay in power without really doing much of anything at all and created a bit more lazy play overall. Technically here in s6 there was the jury letter as well but that's a really small/tricky advantage and it never came into play. I think 4 or 5 advantages is a pretty nice spot and I wouldn't want to see much more (unless the cast is much bigger). Temporary advantages or advantages that have short shelf life before they can be used is something else I've talked to mostly rssp1 about and I would support these; here, in this season, OM's fumbler island idol was set to expire early if he couldn't keep up with completing puzzles once every two episodes.
-Cool, dedicated cast : ) I'm so pleased with how dedicated the entire post-merge cast was, and we saw some huge highlights from some premerge players like Aaronboyer as well. Some people threw shade at Drookez and PokeMariTatoe for being goats and following, but as a host I can definitely say they both did some really interesting things behind the scenes, even if they didn't pan out. I wouldn't call either of them a goat/sheep, though I do think it is hard for a jury to value and see almost-invisible moves and that players need to be aware of how their actions could possibly be read by the jury. shubaka17 was interesting as a tiny bit of a flipper but with a blooming, positive attitude. Energy was an all around loud-mouth and try hard that kept things moving along. ajhockeystar was sort of like Tyson in BvW as the king that everyone knew about but unlike Tyson he was also uniquely friendly in a genuine, non-sarcastic way. Whydon was someone betrayed early game and who switched sides to be loyal to new people, sort of like a Cochran in his first season. OM room created great moments with his self vote out that will never be forgotten. MK007 and Cleo were both firecrackers to retaliate against Laurel while being loyal to their allies. bluedoom was the quiet brains of the game that had a lot of control in the early merge. trace was someone willing to make big moves very early on, but faced a blindside as retaliation. vooper ... was one of the most entertaining over-playing flame-out merge boots we've seen before (no offense; it was fun to watch!). InfernoDragon was a bit of a wild card at times who seemed to alternate between being a bit too hot but knowing when to cool down, and watching him in ftc as a juror was a huge excitement because it was largely his questions that made the possibility of "oh shit Laurel might do this" become a possibility.
-I personally like try-hard challenges, in moderation. 5/17 seemed to be in moderation to me, but having challenge 1 and 2 both be tryhard might have been a bit much for the premerge.
Things I didn't like about this season:
-Where are the girls? Seriously, it seems like most of the reddit and branch off ORGs are MUCH better at having a diverse cast. Can we do anything better to have equal representation of women in Smogon games?
-On average, the fans seemed to have more energy than the returnees. All the fans seemed to be engaged, but I feel like a few past players (looking moreso on the favorites tribe minus aj than the fumblers tribe), who've done really well before got complacent.
----
I also was excited about the fumbler island merge twist in general, since it kept early merge boots active in the game longer and added a new layer of risk. That said, it was fully-intended to be a one-off thing, not something for future seasons.
For the juror members, I still do have a question for you; what would you like to see in ponderosa to make your jury-experience more rewarding/more engaging? : )
-5 advantages, (4 idols total from 3 starting tribes, 1 fumbler island + extra vote) seemed to work well. Finding the sweet spot for enough advantages to keep the game interesting but not too much to make it crazy is always a top concern. Personally, I think one of the biggest failures of Circus S5 was the lack of advantages, which helped the majority alliance to stay in power without really doing much of anything at all and created a bit more lazy play overall. Technically here in s6 there was the jury letter as well but that's a really small/tricky advantage and it never came into play. I think 4 or 5 advantages is a pretty nice spot and I wouldn't want to see much more (unless the cast is much bigger). Temporary advantages or advantages that have short shelf life before they can be used is something else I've talked to mostly rssp1 about and I would support these; here, in this season, OM's fumbler island idol was set to expire early if he couldn't keep up with completing puzzles once every two episodes.
-Cool, dedicated cast : ) I'm so pleased with how dedicated the entire post-merge cast was, and we saw some huge highlights from some premerge players like Aaronboyer as well. Some people threw shade at Drookez and PokeMariTatoe for being goats and following, but as a host I can definitely say they both did some really interesting things behind the scenes, even if they didn't pan out. I wouldn't call either of them a goat/sheep, though I do think it is hard for a jury to value and see almost-invisible moves and that players need to be aware of how their actions could possibly be read by the jury. shubaka17 was interesting as a tiny bit of a flipper but with a blooming, positive attitude. Energy was an all around loud-mouth and try hard that kept things moving along. ajhockeystar was sort of like Tyson in BvW as the king that everyone knew about but unlike Tyson he was also uniquely friendly in a genuine, non-sarcastic way. Whydon was someone betrayed early game and who switched sides to be loyal to new people, sort of like a Cochran in his first season. OM room created great moments with his self vote out that will never be forgotten. MK007 and Cleo were both firecrackers to retaliate against Laurel while being loyal to their allies. bluedoom was the quiet brains of the game that had a lot of control in the early merge. trace was someone willing to make big moves very early on, but faced a blindside as retaliation. vooper ... was one of the most entertaining over-playing flame-out merge boots we've seen before (no offense; it was fun to watch!). InfernoDragon was a bit of a wild card at times who seemed to alternate between being a bit too hot but knowing when to cool down, and watching him in ftc as a juror was a huge excitement because it was largely his questions that made the possibility of "oh shit Laurel might do this" become a possibility.
-I personally like try-hard challenges, in moderation. 5/17 seemed to be in moderation to me, but having challenge 1 and 2 both be tryhard might have been a bit much for the premerge.
I disagree largely with Jalmont on the challenges and this is first season where so many of the players themselves were saying they actively engaged in challenges, beyond some strategic throwing and whatnot (maybe this is mostly because Jalmont didn't get a good taste of the challenge list because of his relatively early exit). The challenge variety has been the greatest it's ever been (except for maybe s3, explained more below) and past seasons have been entirely lacking in the "endurance/try-hard" challenges. For people who don't like those kinds of challenges, I can understand, but at the end of the day they are pretty accessible and add something that has been missing. I'm personally EXTREMELY bored by challenges where the winner is always super obvious or where it's just the same level of "deductive reasoning and guesswork" that's seen in like 90% of all of hal's challenges (might be biased due to recent 7ds in mind where emphasis was more of intellectual challenges).
We've had battles, puzzles, riddles/logic puzzle hunts, geoguessr, endurance, concentration, memory, and actual cooperative challenges. I think the only other season that had more challenge variety than this one was s3, which lasted for 7 months or something precisely because even though some challenges were really cool, they were incredibly complex and lasted very long. Sadly, having super complex challenges hasn't been a thing for a while due to the shorter game times.
Scavenger Hunt, Small Drawings, Click Off, Scavenger Hunt 2, and Concentration Medley were 5 of the 17 immunity challenges that can be labeled as the "try-hard" challenges, whereas Small Drawings, Click Off, and Concentration Medley were also what can be called "endurance (3 out of 17). You'll notice that both of the first two challenges are "try hard" challenges but this was 100% intentional because I wanted to weed out players who put in very minimal effort early on. Maybe having those first two spaced out with a different challenge in the middle might have created a better flow though.
I think part of the overall success for the season is finding the "right" mix of balance for advantages that spiced things up without letting them get crazy, having a dedicated cast, and having challenges that weeded out non-dedicated tribe members by either eliminating them early or making would-be slackers realize that if they wanted to get to the end, they would have to try hard. As a host, I definitely like players who try hard, and challenges that cause people to try hard is a very good thing for this season. Laurel try-harding his way to the end was definitely part of why the season ended so well, and having only "rational-logic" based challenges at the end could have made this season so much more boring.
Try-hard challenges, in my opinion, are a very welcome addition to the game and I think they are a reason why this season had so many try-hard players that kept the end game exciting. Even though s3 had a huge challenge variety as well, the end game sort of stalled out because the end challenges were all stuff that tested relatively the same things and were incredibly easy for me to abuse to get people to throw to me. While some might argue that 5 out of 17 challenges being try-hard is a tad too high, I would certainly say that having try-hard challenges fills a huge gap that's been missing. Yeah, there's been stuff I'm Still Holding On before, but also having new try hard stuff that is more exciting like the Scavenger Hunt is something good. I'd 100% rather watch Laurel do Scavenger Hunt than whoever else do I'm Still Holding On, and I'd probably rather watch Laurel do Scavenger Hunt than watch Blazade or someone solve their umpteenth rational-logic based challenge.
Balances of challenge ratio can be tweaked to hit a sweet spot for sure, but I've been on both sides (as a player in a nonsmogon ORG and a host) for try-hard challenges, and I think they are a refreshing change of pace so that not every challenge becomes an intellectual battle.
Regarding thread-vs-discord dynamics, a few more thread updates on challenge winners could have been done, yeah. Overall I think it's safe to say that survivor ORGs, with their free for all outside contact nature, are better suited for discord than a thread.
We've had battles, puzzles, riddles/logic puzzle hunts, geoguessr, endurance, concentration, memory, and actual cooperative challenges. I think the only other season that had more challenge variety than this one was s3, which lasted for 7 months or something precisely because even though some challenges were really cool, they were incredibly complex and lasted very long. Sadly, having super complex challenges hasn't been a thing for a while due to the shorter game times.
Scavenger Hunt, Small Drawings, Click Off, Scavenger Hunt 2, and Concentration Medley were 5 of the 17 immunity challenges that can be labeled as the "try-hard" challenges, whereas Small Drawings, Click Off, and Concentration Medley were also what can be called "endurance (3 out of 17). You'll notice that both of the first two challenges are "try hard" challenges but this was 100% intentional because I wanted to weed out players who put in very minimal effort early on. Maybe having those first two spaced out with a different challenge in the middle might have created a better flow though.
I think part of the overall success for the season is finding the "right" mix of balance for advantages that spiced things up without letting them get crazy, having a dedicated cast, and having challenges that weeded out non-dedicated tribe members by either eliminating them early or making would-be slackers realize that if they wanted to get to the end, they would have to try hard. As a host, I definitely like players who try hard, and challenges that cause people to try hard is a very good thing for this season. Laurel try-harding his way to the end was definitely part of why the season ended so well, and having only "rational-logic" based challenges at the end could have made this season so much more boring.
Try-hard challenges, in my opinion, are a very welcome addition to the game and I think they are a reason why this season had so many try-hard players that kept the end game exciting. Even though s3 had a huge challenge variety as well, the end game sort of stalled out because the end challenges were all stuff that tested relatively the same things and were incredibly easy for me to abuse to get people to throw to me. While some might argue that 5 out of 17 challenges being try-hard is a tad too high, I would certainly say that having try-hard challenges fills a huge gap that's been missing. Yeah, there's been stuff I'm Still Holding On before, but also having new try hard stuff that is more exciting like the Scavenger Hunt is something good. I'd 100% rather watch Laurel do Scavenger Hunt than whoever else do I'm Still Holding On, and I'd probably rather watch Laurel do Scavenger Hunt than watch Blazade or someone solve their umpteenth rational-logic based challenge.
Balances of challenge ratio can be tweaked to hit a sweet spot for sure, but I've been on both sides (as a player in a nonsmogon ORG and a host) for try-hard challenges, and I think they are a refreshing change of pace so that not every challenge becomes an intellectual battle.
Regarding thread-vs-discord dynamics, a few more thread updates on challenge winners could have been done, yeah. Overall I think it's safe to say that survivor ORGs, with their free for all outside contact nature, are better suited for discord than a thread.
Things I didn't like about this season:
-Where are the girls? Seriously, it seems like most of the reddit and branch off ORGs are MUCH better at having a diverse cast. Can we do anything better to have equal representation of women in Smogon games?
-On average, the fans seemed to have more energy than the returnees. All the fans seemed to be engaged, but I feel like a few past players (looking moreso on the favorites tribe minus aj than the fumblers tribe), who've done really well before got complacent.
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I also was excited about the fumbler island merge twist in general, since it kept early merge boots active in the game longer and added a new layer of risk. That said, it was fully-intended to be a one-off thing, not something for future seasons.
For the juror members, I still do have a question for you; what would you like to see in ponderosa to make your jury-experience more rewarding/more engaging? : )
Yeah I mean other people can chime in on how they felt and I definitely have a limited perspective compared to you. but i mean there's no way you can be serious in saying s3 had the second most challenge variety (i wont make the claim for this game because obv i didn't see every challenge). literally the majority of the challenges were pokemon (nothing wrong with that, i think pokemon challenges are the best in terms of appealing to the larger smogon playerbase). and i don't know if you are purposely "forgetting" s4 and i hate to bring it up but i think that season did an excellent job in mixing together different challenges. i don't think it was anything like SDS. like i know you weren't in the game but none of the challenges in s4 had an "obvious winner" bar like one challenge that was tabletop games and that was because me and viper couldn't get our match done. like there were "deductive challenges" you talked about but there was also an endurance challenge, puzzles, flash games, an art challenge, trivia, etc. to me that season is basically the perfect mix of challenges in that they was variety, they were different, and overall fun to partake in.
yeah i mean i guess i cant really speak for post merge challenges but every challenge i participated was not enjoyable for me and it didn't make me want to play the game (not excusing how i did play, but in terms of looking forward to what the game had to offer). i mean idk i guess it "worked" for other people but there was no real incentive to want to do the challenge beyond it being a chore as a part of the game. i think the main issue came down to the fact that they were so non-inclusive. they gave you no reason to "work together" with your tribe because ultimately they were all individual tasks. i think it's important that team challenges have an inclusive aspect to give people a reason to work together beyond the fact that they are playing survivor the game. every challenge in s4 (i think lol) required you to come up with a plan as a team or at least directly have to communicate with them in order to win. what am i supposed to do if my teammate lives in a shack in the woods in siberia? i can't even cheer them on because it's not an effort related thing lol. maybe the rpg game is fun if i get to make the decisions but i mean like there was nothing i could actually do to influence anything to win beyond giving input on choices to make (which arguably limits the challenge to just a couple people anyways) because the entirety of the challenge comes down to flipping coins. that's probably more interesting if i get to make all the decisions but i don't.
I don't know I guess maybe for an individual challenges the initial team challenges would've worked a lot better. I guess for me it comes down to wanting team challenges to be actually involve your team or at least give you a reason to discuss things and work together whereas endurance challenges really should only be individual. Why try and "weed" out inactive players from the start when you can at least start by trying to get people involved in the game? And then maybe after that those players who might've been ambivalent from the start get into the game and put more effort and will care about the more tedious challenges (i mean the one endurance challenge in s4 was won by the person no one would've expected and who arguably wasn't really even trying to win the game lol).
Maybe we can just chalk it down to different philosophies (I mean I very much have a more "unpopular" opinion when it comes to what Survivor the TV show should be like anyways so it wouldn't be surprising). Just my thoughts =]
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I somewhat disagree with you that the pre-merge challenges were not "inclusive." Number chain was an incredibly cooperative challenge, as was the team construction of Water-Downed RPG. Scavenger Hunt also got a significant score bump if players were working together to make sure the whole list was completed at least once. All of these challenges are incredibly more inclusive than the usual list of pokemon challenges where players are interacting with their opponent in singular events, rather than interacting with their tribe. Small drawings and mirror match battles were the only pre-merge challenges that kept players isolated, I definitely agree, but I think a lot of past seasons do have some isolated pre-merge challenges too x.x
And no, I don't think challenges in s4 were particularly exciting (a few were, but most I wasn't a fan of), and watching stuff like spam-off soccer was incredibly boring to me : / Don't get me wrong, the gameplay between players in s4 postmerge was great. I just didn't particularly like much of the premerge or postmerge challenges in that season.
If you see a lack of cooperative challenges in the whole challenge list, also note that there were only 5 challenges out of 17 total before the merge, since the early merge accounted for fumbler island's presence. But I don't think a 60% (3 out of 5) rate for inclusive/cooperative tribal challenges is all that low compared to other seasons on this forum.
Definitely willing to try to get a challenge set up that is agreeable to all... getting everyone to like every challenge is impossible, but I definitely don't want another season of someone going through 5 challenge cycles without liking anything at all :( I'm sad it happened this time and while I don't agree with you that we had no "inclusive" challenges in this game's premerge, I am wanting to make sure future seasons include challenges you do like.
And no, I don't think challenges in s4 were particularly exciting (a few were, but most I wasn't a fan of), and watching stuff like spam-off soccer was incredibly boring to me : / Don't get me wrong, the gameplay between players in s4 postmerge was great. I just didn't particularly like much of the premerge or postmerge challenges in that season.
If you see a lack of cooperative challenges in the whole challenge list, also note that there were only 5 challenges out of 17 total before the merge, since the early merge accounted for fumbler island's presence. But I don't think a 60% (3 out of 5) rate for inclusive/cooperative tribal challenges is all that low compared to other seasons on this forum.
Definitely willing to try to get a challenge set up that is agreeable to all... getting everyone to like every challenge is impossible, but I definitely don't want another season of someone going through 5 challenge cycles without liking anything at all :( I'm sad it happened this time and while I don't agree with you that we had no "inclusive" challenges in this game's premerge, I am wanting to make sure future seasons include challenges you do like.
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