Rules SV Battle Stadium Forum Rules & Simple Questions

[Hydrametr0nice]

This is not really the kind of question this thread is for, but the short answer is that different people enjoy different things, and just because you don’t personally find something fun doesn’t mean the rest of us aren’t allowed to.
Additionally, saying BSS isn’t competitive is just plain wrong, and shows that you haven’t given the format a fair shot enough to know much about the metagame and how it’s played.

I never said that the metagame wasn't fun or blatantly uncompetitive. What I pointed out was that it’s more volatile, and that this volatility makes it less competitive by Smogon's definition, as reflected in the GXE values. Players frequently comment on the inherent volatility of Pokémon battles. Smogon's formats attempt to minimize those elements, while VGC reduces them somewhat due to its doubles format.

I wasn’t criticizing the format; I was seeking an answer from a format-specific perspective, on what "you" personally like about the metagame, as Omastar68 did. I actually enjoy watching tournament matches from BSS. I’m not sure if my response came across as arrogant or if something I said upset you, but I’ll leave it at that.

 

[Psynergy]

I never said that the metagame wasn't fun or blatantly uncompetitive. What I pointed out was that it’s more volatile, and that this volatility makes it less competitive by Smogon's definition, as reflected in the GXE values. Players frequently comment on the inherent volatility of Pokémon battles. Smogon's format attempts to minimize those elements, while VGC reduces them somewhat due to its doubles format.

I wasn’t criticizing the format; I was seeking an answer from a format-specific perspective, on what "you" personally like about the metagame, as Omastar68 did. I actually enjoy watching tournament matches from BSS. I’m not sure if my response came across as arrogant or if something I said upset you, but I’ll leave it at that.

I mean no offense when I say this is an ignorant take built on incomplete data and an arbitrary premise as this definition of competitiveness is not an end-all determination. A large portion of the English speaking community as a whole is somewhat ignorant of BSS so this isn't me calling you out when I say that.

I don't think many will dispute that there is more volatility in this format than others but I think people often exaggerate how much more volatile this format is when it's largely just a difficult format. This is not some format where one month a top player will get a 2150 ELO finish and then the next month struggle to break 1900s, the top players are consistently the same top players just like any other format.

Now the reason I use the word ignorant is that in a literal sense there is a lack of knowledge or awareness here that I want to address. Using the ladder GXE of the PS BSS ladder is not a good indicator for BSS because the PS ladder is not a popular one, and only a small snapshot of what the meta is. I'm not trying to downplay the skill of the players on our PS ladder either (I'm not here effortlessly topping PS ladder myself), but the fact of the matter is that the ladder is not exceptionally active and very few players on Smogon are "top" players of the meta at large.

A majority of players of this meta are Japanese and Korean players who only play on cartridge ladder, and either only use PS ladder as a testing ground or barely even know we exist. As for the cart ladder itself, it's a lot more active to the point that I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that BSS is more popular than VGC in the Japanese community, and you can always find lots of blogs with team reports ranging from hyper serious top end teams to fun teams built on their favorite mascot. I can't speak for them to make that claim definitively, though ladder numbers and JP team reports being more numerous for BSS paints that picture somewhat.

To answer the initial question I would say many players who like BSS simply like the appeal of an official singles metagame and understand that it's a difficult competitive meta. For some there's also a sense of wanting to connect with the Japanese playerbase that often doesn't interact with us or have much presence outside of JP circles. Pearl, longtime Smogon user (former UU leader) who has played both BSS and VGC at a high level, has described cartridge BSS as the final boss of competitive Pokemon, so BSS can be seen as a kind of end goal for players like him, but for most I would say the appeal of "what if VGC but Singles" is enough.

 

[DerpySuX]

to build on what was said above myself and papiloco just played flawless 5/0 seasons in this edition of BSSPL, so even if you take just the western community as a sample size, the top players here are still able to be consistent.

 

[Omastar68]

Is Floatzel outclassed by Basulegion M? I think so, though it used to be a thing. But then how does Palafin escape this? As I recall they played much the same.

 

[PSLY PRK]

Is Floatzel outclassed by Basulegion M? I think so, though it used to be a thing. But then how does Palafin escape this? As I recall they played much the same.

It used to be a thing because Basculegion wasn't in the game
In all honesty I do think Floatzel had some merit in earlier Regs where it was able to outpace +Spe Flutter Mane/Iron Bundle under Rain while Basc couldn't, but with those mons gone there really isn't anything that requires Floatzel's higher speed (I guess Alolatales in Snow, but every Rain team is going to have Archaludon anyway so that's a very niche use).
Basc has higher Attack, a 150 BP STAB move, and natural immunity to popular speed control like ESpeed and Sneasler's Fake Out. Floatzel also relies heavily on the boost from Rain for its damage output whilst Scarfed Adaptability Basc is a lot more versatile.
I'm not super familiar with Palafin and it has had a drop off in use since the start of the Reg, but its absurdly high Attack means that it can similarly function well outside of Rain - for example it can 2HKO Pex after Rocks without the Rain boost whilst Floatzel is stuck with a 3HKO.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 52-62 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 71-84 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Omastar68]

It used to be a thing because Basculegion wasn't in the game
In all honesty I do think Floatzel had some merit in earlier Regs where it was able to outpace +Spe Flutter Mane/Iron Bundle under Rain while Basc couldn't, but with those mons gone there really isn't anything that requires Floatzel's higher speed (I guess Alolatales in Snow, but every Rain team is going to have Archaludon anyway so that's a very niche use).
Basc has higher Attack, a 150 BP STAB move, and natural immunity to popular speed control like ESpeed and Sneasler's Fake Out. Floatzel also relies heavily on the boost from Rain for its damage output whilst Scarfed Adaptability Basc is a lot more versatile.
I'm not super familiar with Palafin and it has had a drop off in use since the start of the Reg, but its absurdly high Attack means that it can similarly function well outside of Rain - for example it can 2HKO Pex after Rocks without the Rain boost whilst Floatzel is stuck with a 3HKO.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Floatzel Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 52-62 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 71-84 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

ok thank you, that's crazy that palafin does that. I mean I guess it's not surprising...yea I see it. In reg g sun was bigger than rain, and now when rain is popular the spe is more than what you could realistically need.

EDIT: Dang it why I responded, now no one see my post since we ain't supposed to double post^^ Anyway, what are some options into Basc/Arch(combo for rain, specifically. I can find enough for one or other.) I'm looking at weird stuff like Bellossom or Specs Abomasnow, but maybe something meta would help to start xd. Basc is really good for its ability ofc, it doesn't hit too hard w/o, so I'm considering(maybe) reg Neutralizing Gas Weezing(fairy no good to arch.) Except it's vulnerable specially, and bypassing arch's ability won't help weezing.

 

[Blazur17]

Hello, this is my first time ever posting on smogon but I've been around lurking for a long time. I just started playing BSS about 3 months ago after playing VGC for a decade. I'm really enjoying it and it's basically the only format I play now.

My question is just that in going through various BSS posts, I've noticed people talking about hanging out in a discord. Is that just the general smogon discord? I am in there but I don't see any BSS specific channels. If that is not the discord, can anyone point me to a link or post to it? I'm not super talkative in general but I'd just like to get more involved in the our small western BSS community.

 

[DerpySuX]

Hello, this is my first time ever posting on smogon but I've been around lurking for a long time. I just started playing BSS about 3 months ago after playing VGC for a decade. I'm really enjoying it and it's basically the only format I play now.

My question is just that in going through various BSS posts, I've noticed people talking about hanging out in a discord. Is that just the general smogon discord? I am in there but I don't see any BSS specific channels. If that is not the discord, can anyone point me to a link or post to it? I'm not super talkative in general but I'd just like to get more involved in the our small western BSS community.

Hi, Welcome to smogon! You can find our BSS server here, we also have a BSS chatroom on PS! which you can find here!

 

[DerpySuX]

Hello!

Is there a link on Smogon to the rules for each regulation, or is that a Bulbapedia sort of resource?

Are there BSS tournaments with prize pools at all comparable to VGC?

Regards!

(I am pursuing a point that fewer bans (than Smogon) can still produce competitive formats—far more competitive, in fact, given the prize pools.)

Omg BSS question awawa

Unfortunately there are not any official in-person BSS events outside of Japan, but we still host BSS tournaments onsite and they are very competitive! We currently have BSS Champions League I ongoing and we are gearing up for our circuit invitational, which you can find info about here!

For resources you can check out the BSS Subforum, and feel free to ask questions in our PS room or Discord server!

 

[DerpySuX]

Is there a handy post which explains how BSS players manage all of the things which Smogon bans? I imagine that specific Pokémon balance each other out, but what about Evasion, Sleep, Baton Pass, OHKO moves, Moody, and anything else commonly banned (yet not included among the Smogon-wide clauses)?

Edit: to be clear, I think that competing without these clauses is dope.

There’s no post but generally it’s like

Evasion + Baton Pass (they’re generally synonymous)
If your opponent is using this they’re usually either bad or trolling and it’s not that hard to abuse the lengthy setup required to pull these things off. Ursaluna Bloodmoon ignores evasion boosts and Dondozo ignores all stat changes in general. These are both excellent pokes and easy to fit on most teams.

Phasing is another pretty simple way to disrupt this strategy and there are plenty of excellent users of phasing moves, Ting-Lu and Ho-Oh being the most notable.

OHKO moves ignore boosts to accuracy/evasion and are just a flat 30% chance to hit, if no options are otherwise available you can simply gamble back at them. On that note

OHKO moves
While controversial even among BSS mains the general consensus is that they’re not unmanageable. The only poke that’s really guaranteed to have an OHKO move is Dondozo with Fissure, and it’s pretty easy to have a flier or something come in to block it. All OHKO moves actually have at least one type they cannot hit. The easiest answer is just sturdy users tho, Ogerpon-Cornerstone and Archaludon can freely block any ohko move from any user. Fitting substitute also generally works, or the simplest answer is you just don’t give them the chance to fish for it a bunch. Maximize pressure you’re putting out every turn to make sure your opponent can’t freely click an OHKO move.


Sleep Spam/Moody/(probably) any other cheese you can think of

In addition to the obvious answers of taunt, phasing, substitute, etc, your best bet is to just minimize the turns that your opponent is able to be a nuisance. A lot of newer BSS players don’t like to hear this but most of the time, if you get cheesed completely by something like this, some of the blame falls on you. There’s often something you could have done to stop your opponent. Of course, sometimes you just get caught off guard or the cheese player gets lucky, but this isn’t nearly as common as people are led to believe. If these tactics were consistent you’d see them brought to tournament games and not just used on ladder, and aside from OHKO moves, in my 5 years of competing in BSS I can count on my hands the number of times I’ve seen a cheese strategy brought to a tournament game, and many of those didn’t even win.

 

[deepseazapdos]

Is there a handy post which explains how BSS players manage all of the things which Smogon bans? I imagine that specific Pokémon balance each other out, but what about Evasion, Sleep, Baton Pass, OHKO moves, Moody, and anything else commonly banned (yet not included among the Smogon-wide clauses)?

Edit: to be clear, I think that competing without these clauses is dope.

If you're looking for a BSS player's perspective, I'd be happy to share with you what I think about them. I play on cartridge ranked battles.

Regarding the idea of "specific pokémon balancing each other out", I feel it's true because in a way every Pokémon in BSS has its "natural predators" as well as numerous strategies and ways to be answered.

I see BSS as a survival of the fittest format because you must plan and adapt against various possible strategies or archetypes during teambuilding, team preview and even mid-game. That also includes, for example, strategies like Taunt + TWave + Memento Flutter Mane paired with Moody Smeargle with Minimize + Baton Pass.
You won't see this a lot because it's a poor approach to the metagame, namely due to the stochastic nature of the archetype and the fact that you can invest 5 or 7 turns attacking your opponent instead of trying to set up. This strategy is linear so I see this as a one trick pony and it feels very rewarding to play around it and see your opponent's entire plan fall apart.

As Derpy said, you also have guaranteed ways to hit through evasion readily available on viable Pokémon. There's more examples that weren't mentioned like moves that bypass accuracy checks, such as Heavy Slam Ting-Lu and Aerial Ace Technician Scizor.